Talk:Hoysala Kingdom/Archive 1

Inscriptions
To read about Kannada inscriptions from Hoysala era, click on link to Archeological Survey of India - South India inscriptions at bottom of this page.

Wikipedia sections are not meant to be used as placeholders or pointers to external links. Sections within Wikipedia artciles have to stand as independent entities, discussing a theme. Sections may reference external literature, but not entirely, as is the case with this section. This form of referencing amounts to little more than an external link, which is how I eventually added the link. To the user who added this section, please refer to WP:POL and WP:MOS for a better understanding of layout, content and writing policies and procedures that govern Wikipedia. AreJay 06:12, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Literature
''The revival of learning brought to surface a large number of poets whose works are still regarded as master pieces of Kannada literature. The most famous poet at the court of Ballala I was Nagachandra who was known as Abhinava Pampa. His two important works are Ramachandra Charita Purana, and Mallinathapurana. Ballala also is said to have patronized the poetess Kanti, but scholars are not agreed upon her historicity.  Among the literary figures of the period of Vishnuvardhana, mention may be made of Vishnudandadipa, Santa Mahanta and the redoubtable Rajaditya. Harihara, the author of Girija Kalyana and his nephew Raghavanka, the famous author of Harischandra Kavya flourished during the reign of Narasimha I. The latter is said to have visited the Hoysala court under the influence of the minister Kereya Padmarasa. Janna was the poet laureate of the court of Ballala II and Narasimha II. He obtained the title of Kavichakravarti from Ballala, and wrote Yashodhara Charite and Ananthanatha Purana. Nemichandra, the author of Leelavati also flourished during this period.  Rudra Bhatta, the author of Jagannatha Vijaya was patronized by Chandramauli, a minister of Ballala II. The reign of Vira Someshwara saw the production of two great works namely Sukti - Sudharnava by Mallikarjuna and Shabdamanidarpana of Kesiraja. In short, the Hoysala period was immensely fertile in the production of literary works of great merit and variety.''

This is not an original work effort, and needs to appropriately reference the website that it was taken from (http://www.ourkarnataka.com/states/history/historyofkarnataka31.htm). Whole sections in a Wikipedia article cannot be verbatim exerpts from other people's original work. The content of this section must be original, and reference external material, where applicable. Please refer to WP:MOS and WP:CITE for additional information on how to write articles and cite your references. AreJay 05:31, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

elaborate on belur/halebidu/somnathapura
Its a pity to see WIKI pages on these places that are the very epitome of Karnataka architecture being so pitifully inadequate. Please come together to elaborate on these three pages the way Hampi page is done. Belur/Halebidu are being proposed as world Heritage sites. The least we can do is to build good material for these pages. The picture of Somnathapura temple for that page does not do even a fraction to bring out the beauty of that temple. Even within Halebidu, no we need to add the Kadereshvara temple, and the two jaina monuments. In Belur apart from the Chennakeshava temple, we need to add Channigraya temple. We need to not just write about Belur and Halebidu but also about wonderfull nearby monuments in Belavadi, Doddagodavalli, Haranhalli, Nuggihalli etc. Maybe a seperate page can be created for Hoysala monumnets or just add to one that already exists. I had created a page on Lakkundi, the places where Kalyani chalukyas built more than 50 classic temples. Nobody has bothered to add anything to that page either. Just look at the amount of info on Pattadakal, Aihole (birthplace of Hindu rock architecture) and Badami and one gets to see why we Kannadigas as so shamelessly inadequate in talking about advertizing about ourselves.

Dinesh Kannambadi

Bringing Hoysala architecture to the world
In response to my previous note in this discussion page about my dissatisfaction with the lack of content and pictures with regards to Karnataka and its heritage, I took it upon myself to travel to over 15 hoysala temples across Hassan, Mandya, Chikamagalur and Shimoga districts in June 2006. I have brought back some splendid pictures taken by "myself" and am in the process of updating all related wiki pages (hoysala architecture, Belur, Halebidu, Hassan district, etc). Enjoy the pictures. I have uploaded them into the wikimedia commons.

Dinesh Kannambadi

Veera Ballala I and Veera Ballala II
These two names link to the same article. I think someonee needs to write separate articles on both these kings. - Parthi 05:46, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Detailed info on Veera Ballalas and Vishnuvardhana
I intend to start putting in detailed information on each one of these great kings with reference books I have (Dr. S.U. Kamat, K.. Nilakanta Sastri, Dr. Romila Thapar) making appropriate references. I also intend to add info to every section in the main page to give it better personality. I would say that given the contribution the Hoysala's have made to Karnataka/Kannada culture, this is the worst maintained site, giving as little information as possible. Thanks for pointing this out Parthi. I intend to rise this page to the minimum dignity it deserves. The existing information is however mostly correct though inadequate. I dont expect to make any changes to existing material (other than the origin of Hakka and Bukka which is unsubstantiated) but will just add to the material existing giving verifiable references.

Dinesh Kannambadi

Detailed edits to Hoysala and related pagesDineshkannambadi 19:10, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
As mentioned in my earlier message, I am making many additions to these pages using re-worded information from various reputable sources, provided in the reference section. I would like to clarify that as per wikipedia conduct guidelines, no one can delete info that is correctly sourced and referenced, but can only add alternate views of scholars with verifiable references. Any attempt to remove material just because it does not agree with someones taste, general knowledge or ego is considered vandalism and will be reverted promptly. These pages will be on my watch list from now on. Good luck!!!!

Dinesh Kannambadi

Tags
I have put the tags as this article reads like an advertisement. It seems to be POV. And from when did small Indian kingdoms become "Empires" ???? I am renaming the article as Hoysala Kingdom Mika Nalin 03:56, 30 October 2006 (UTC) — Possible single purpose account: Mika Nalin (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.

Hoysala Empire or Hoysala Kingdom
The user "Mika Nalin" who put blatant tags needs to do some reading in History before tagging arbitarily with out discussion. From when did people start changing names of articles based on their fancy and their own conception of empire and kingdom. All the books from which matter has been referenced have been cited below in the reference section. Dont you dare call my months' worth of work POV without the slighest bit of knowledge what you are writing about. You think this page looks like an advertizement. Prove it!!!. Dont you dare call my work POV. The very fact you dont even have a user page shows how serious you are about wiki. An admin has been intimated about this. Any attempt to further tag this page without discussion will go for arbitration. Any attempt to rename without discussion and I will request an admin to block you from using wiki.Dineshkannambadi 15:05, 30 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Friend, please read WP:OWN. You do not own this article. Secondly, you are violating WP:NPA by resorting to remarks like "I will request an admin to block you from using wiki". Please don't do that. As far as Kingdom and Empire is concerned, nowadays every other small kingdom is presented to us as an Empire ! Hmmmm Blatant POV Pushing. Isn't it ?


 * "Dont you dare call my work POV." - Your work ?!?!? Again, read WP:OWN.


 * As for the user who added "single purpose account" next to my comment, I am considering it as a Personal Attack, as I had added tag to another article as well.


 * By the way, you badly lack manners. Mika Nalin 17:47, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I reckon this is old history now, but if that wasn't a troll then I'm a mongoose. If it ever comes back, don't feed it again (or it'll just get bigger). ;-) -- Lonewolf BC 06:46, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Tagging
My dear friend Mika, I know I dont own the page. But that does not mean you go around tagging articles without discussion. If you want citations for the word "Hoysala Empire", I can bring you several from noted historians (once I get home from work) Then what do you plan to do?. I Know that to cover up your fancy tagging you have dropped another tag somewhere in the article, when you really dont even understand the contents nor do you understand the history of Hoysalas. As far as manners are concerned, I dont think you are way ahead of me for calling months worth of hard work (research and travel) by me as POV and other things. Either you are an inexperienced and innocent wikipedian or out to make some trouble. I have requested two admins to come here and resolve this. Also looks like you have covered a revert by calling it "replacing tags...Dineshkannambadi 18:31, 30 October 2006 (UTC).

My apologies
Dear Mika Nalin, please accept my humble apologies for my rough language earlier today. Sometimes we get caught up with other day-to-day stresses and it comes out the wrong way on the media. Please understand that many months of work by people with good intentions have gone into this page and to see a POV tag without discussion is very distressing and frustrating emotionally. You should have discussed on my talk page first and given me a chance to explain. The nomenclature "kingdom" and "empire" is not just determined by size but also by contribution. The Hoysalas are famous not just in India but even abroad for their architecture. Paintings of Hoysala sculptures adorn the walls of the Houston Museum in the USA. Hoysala architecture is a frequent topic on Hoysala Vrinda, an organization of educated individuals in Houston. Vasundhara Filliozat, an expert on Medeival Karnataka architecture at Univ. of Paris teaches Hoysala architecture as a subject there.Please try to reach out, learn and discuss before tagging. Happy editing and contributions.Dineshkannambadi 01:15, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Infobox
Is there a more generic "Empire Infobox" that would allow the image to be placed inside of it?Bakaman Bakatalk 04:35, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Good suggestion Baka, regarding placing the image inside the infobox.
 * There is no "Empire infobox" as such, atleast that I am aware of. I referred to Chola dynasty which was featured recently. They have used an infobox specific to Chola dynasty, and it is Chola infobox.
 * Based on those lines, I went ahead and created a new template Hoysala infobox.
 * Placed the Hoysala symbol image inside the infobox. However, we might need to put an image covering the areas ruled by Hoysalas, instead of putting the symbol. - KNM Talk 05:06, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Areas ruled by hoysalas
The map is slightly inaccurate. The Hoysalas had full control over coastal Karnataka and the Alupas of Canara (coast) were their feudatories. Also the fingers jutting into Tamil Nadu is a bit fanciful. The fingers should be simply joined. The whole of northern Tamil Nadu was fully in control of Hoysalas. That needs to be included. I have a map of their empire in my book. In fact the whole of south India ,south of Krishna river came under their sway in the 13th century. Even the Pandyas accepeted their leardership (for sometime ofcourse). So technically, we should just include the entire lower peninsula or we could draw out the core empire as it is shown right now (including canara) and then show the remaining area as area of influence/domination as well.Dineshkannambadi 14:27, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * If you can scan the map or in anyway reproduce the map to display it on computer (not for publishing, but only for creating the maps as required by Wikipedia), then it would be helpful. We can then take that into any of the admins and seek their help. - KNM Talk 07:54, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Peer review - TBD
1. Accurate depiction of Hoysala map ( I have the map. Need to redraw using a drawing tool online. That should be ok so long as we dont just scan it in from my book). KNM can you do this. Do you have any drawing tools online?
 * I've never done this before, nor I know how to do it. I will try and see if I can do anything about it. Thank you. - KNM Talk 18:17, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

2. Some general info on Literature before dwelling in detail on Kannada and Sanskrit (I will do)

3. Complete Detailed page on Hoysaleswara Temple -( I will do this weekend)

4. Add photos of Shantaladevi holding mirror ( I will do)

5. Add photo of Hoysala country-malnad (I will do, Chikmagalur)

6. Provide several citations for existing matter on Govt, Irrigation, society etc. (I will do)

7. Continuity (could be renamed as Vijayanagara) I will provide a few more details on this with citations.

8. Detail of web links just as in Chalukya page in notes and ref section.( I will do)

9. Thorough copy edit (Sarvagnya said he will look in this weekend) thanksDineshkannambadi 15:39, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

IPA transcription
So I did my research using the resources given in the references section of this article and for the Kannada_script, and came up with an IPA representation of the modern Kannada pronunciation of this empire's name as. I did not use the suggested in the Kannada script article, instead opting for the  used on Omniglot (going off of the extremely non--like sound I heard on the audio link. Also, I transcribed  in, although I'm not entirely sure I heard a very strong retroflex gesture in the audio. It could have just been a bad recording (it was the last sound the guy produced on the list, so it could just be the weak subglottal pressure), so it may or may not actually  be . Having heard that recording, I do think that some of the transcriptions on the Kannada alphabet page need to be edited. Just because two letters were pronounced differently in Sanskrit doesn't mean you should transcribe them differently for Kannada! It would be great if a native Kannada speaker could go through and really see if, for example, ಶ and ಷ are really pronounced differently by your average Kannadiga, or ಳ and ಲ. It's quite possible that they are, but it would be nice to get confirmation. --SameerKhan 19:51, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Hoysala police
I think 'Hoysala' is also a name associated with Karnataka (or Bangalore?) police. But there is no information in the article about it. -- Avinesh Jose  T  05:35, 29 February 2008 (UTC)


 * This article is about the medieval Hoysala Empire, not its present day usage in Karnataka.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 12:14, 29 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Still, I don’t think there is nothing wrong in using the modern term as a section, unless somebody creates new article for it. :) -- Avinesh Jose  T  04:20, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia. Its rules allow only "Notable" issues to be included in "pertinent" articles. This article itself has nothing to do with the police force called "Hoysala", which tommorow may change to "Chalukya" or "Vijayanagara". Please feel free to create a seperate article for the "police force in Karnataka".:)Dineshkannambadi (talk) 05:00, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


 * ya, its there in Bangalore City Police. -- Avinesh Jose  T  09:12, 3 March 2008 (UTC)