Talk:Hryhorii Skovoroda/Archive 2

Family
I just found it funny that the Russian Wikipedia says we was born in a rather wealthy Cossack family :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.142.169.180 (talk) 14:11, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Taras Shevchenko (1814-61) never used the word Ukrainian as an ethnonym in any of his works, but they certainly are written in Ukrainian. He referred to Ukrainians always as Cossacks. Such was the fashion of the day.

Skovoroda likewise was born to a Cossack family, which today would be classified as being Ukrainian. It is unlikely that he would have become Russian in the brief period in which he lived there. Typically, citizenship and nationality in the manner that you infer are a concept that was develped later. --Bandurist (talk) 23:18, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Cossaks does not mean Ukrainians. Est Slavic people from Volhynia, Lvov or Bukvoina were not Cossaks, but they were Ukrainians. Shevchenko was a Ukrainian writer, because he wrote his works in Ukrainian language.--Antoni Chojnacki (talk) 13:04, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Read Shevchenko, and then reread what I wrote above. Then do some reading and some thinking regarding the origins of the Cossacks. Then come back and make a comment. ```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bandurist (talk • contribs) 15:44, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Cossack does mean Ukrainian. Listen to the Ukrainian anthem, it states the Ukrainians of the Cossack family. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 18:05, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
 * At times of Skovoroda, it was unlawful to call oneself to be Ukrainian. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 18:07, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
 * At times of Skovoroda, there was nobody Ukrainian. There was no such nationality as Romanian at times of Petro Mohyla and there was no modern nationality of Russian at times of Ivan the Terrible. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 18:12, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Clarifying previous (2012,2013) and current culture and Socrates sentence
Iryna Harpy, Faustian, Ушкуйник, I want to clarify a phrase relating Skovoroda, Socrates and cultural development.

In 2012 and 2013 the text in the first paragraph was: "Skovoroda was so important for Russian culture and development of Russian philosophical thought, that he is often recognized as a Russian philosopher. He has been referred to as the "Russian Socrates."

This is different than: "Skovoroda was so important for Russian culture and development of Russian philosophical thought, that he has been referred to as the "Russian Socrates."

In the first case, there is an implication of "importance --> Russian philosophy membership"

In the second case, there is an implication of "importance --> Socrates phrase"

It is not accurate to say that his importance (nationally) lead to him to be regarded as a Socrates.

I think it is more informative about Skovoroda's scholarly methods and true to history to explain more deeply how the phrase originated.

The Socrates phrase was a result of Skovoroda's similarity in his step-by-step method (in writing his philosophical dialogues) to Socrates and also due to his role as "teacher of the people." (Described by Chopyk and Gavriil in the previous post.)

This is an example of the confusion that is caused when national labels are used for description.

He was called the Russian Socrates, he was called the Ukrainian Socrates (Khiryakov, 1897; Marc Raeff, 1973). In both cases he was a Socrates. The emphasis of the phrase is on the similarity to Socrates, not the national label (which causes a lot of blind anger among different nationalities).

My goal is to improve the accuracy, clarity of the article and untangle the mixed up associations. When I read the article text I have a strong desire to improve it to do Skovoroda (a man who was striving for truth) justice.

I propose a sentence similar to the 2013 version: "Skovoroda was so important for Russian culture and development of Russian philosophical thought, that he is often recognized as a member of Russian Philosophy. His influence on his contemporaries, descendants and his way of life were universally regarded as Socratic." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Svyatver (talk • contribs) 19:43, 22 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Edited the Socrates sentence to briefly introduce Skovoroda's Socratic qualities and his significant influence (leading to him being called a Socrates). Svyatver (talk) 17:34, 2 January 2016 (UTC)