Talk:Hubert Aquin

Quebecois or Canadian?
As I wrote earlier this month in response to reverting a similar edit in the Jacques Godbout article, I would argue for using both, though I've not yet come up with an appropriate way of of incorporating the two in what Wiki calls for in an opening sentence. On that note: among the points that WP:MOSBIO specifies the opening paragraph should include is: "Nationality (In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable. Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability.)" At no point is there a suggestion that nationality be based on the political beliefs (if known) of the subject. Victoriagirl 01:29, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Deconstructing a myth
The rules of Wikipedia commending removal of non-sovereign nationalities for the superstructural reference... Is it the case? No. This is why.

The Rules
Now, WP:MOS itself already begins to guide us by noting that "the following quotation from The Chicago Manual of Style is worth considering: Rules and regulations such as these, in the nature of the case, cannot be endowed with the fixity of rock-ribbed law. They are meant for the average case, and must be applied with a certain degree of elasticity." Ah, but WP:MOSBIO tells us: "Nationality (In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, [...]" So much is contained in a simple word: "normal", like in the word "average". As one reviews the talk that lead to such a construct, one notices (at Talk:WP:MOSBIO) that it was adopted specifically to address this type of issue, leaving this essential elasticity for things such as non-sovereign nationality.

The ethnicity part was to clear up problems such as one issue with a user who insisted in having Jennifer Aniston described as Greek. However, "Quebec" is not a ethnicity and "Quebec is a civic nation, not an ethnic nation."... says one Michael Ignatieff, yesterday in The Globe and Mail (as have done before Benoît Pelletier, Bernard Landry, etc., etc.) And it is Hubert Aquin himself, in La fatigue culturelle du Canada français (a 1962 founding text of the contemporary conceptualization of the said Quebec nation, published in the review Liberté), who writes "The nation is not, as Trudeau insinuates, an ethnic reality (the text partly responded to university teacher Pierre Trudeau's Cité Libre text La trahison des clercs). There are no more ethnies, or whereas so little." 

The precedents
Non-sovereign nationality is tolerated and encouraged across Wikipedia.
 * Ewan McGregor "is a Scottish actor who has had significant success in mainstream, indie and art house films."
 * Craig Ferguson is a Scottish Emmy-nominated actor,''' film director, screenwriter, comedian, composer, and novelist. He is the current host of The Late Late Show, broadcast on CBS.
 * Sean Connery (a Scottish nationalist, or "sovereigntist" in Quebec parlance) "is an Oscar-winning Scottish actor and producer who is also well-known for his portrayal of James Bond."
 * Jack McConnell (a Scottish unionist, or "federalist" in Quebec parlance) "is a Scottish politician, leader of the Labour Party in Scotland and the third and current First Minister of Scotland."
 * Francesc Macià i Llussà "was a Catalan soldier, politician and President of the Generalitat (Catalan government)."
 * Lluís Companys i Jover "was a Catalan politician and leader of the Esquerra Party (Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya)."
 * Josep Irla i Bosch "was a Catalan politician."
 * Josep Tarradellas i Joan "was a Catalan politician."
 * Juan José Ibarretxe "is a Basque politician."
 * '''Édith Butler O.C. (born Marie Nicole Butler 27 July 1942 in Paquetville, New Brunswick) is an Acadian singer-songwriter and folklorist.
 * Yungchen Lhamo "is a Tibetan singer living in exile in New York City."
 * I Muvrini "is a Corsican folk music group who sing traditional Corsican music in their native Corsican language."
 * Mustafa Barghouti "is a Palestinian democracy activist."
 * Maurice Kenney "is a Mohawk poet."
 * Delby Powless "is a Mohawk lacrosse player from the Six Nations of the Grand River Indian reserve near Brantford, Ontario."
 * Zachary Ittimangnaq "is an Inuit actor who portrayed the character Ootek in the 1983 film Never Cry Wolf."
 * Paula Gunn Allen "is a Native American poet, literary critic, activist and novelist."
 * etc.

And even with ethnicity...
 * Ron Karenga, "also known as Ron Everett, is an African American author and Marxist political activist, best known as the founder of Kwanzaa, a week-long celebration first observed in California from December 26, 1966, to January 1, 1967."
 * Elizabeth Catlett Mora "is an African American sculptress and printmaker."
 * William Kristol "is a Jewish American neoconservative thinker, inspired in part by the ideas of Leo Strauss."
 * Joe Pesci, "is an Italian-American Academy Award-winning actor, comedian and singer who is often typecast as a violent mobster or grouchy funnyman."
 * etc.

The situation
It is highly preferable to have an encyclopedia that reflects true reality, that considers it before "officiality". Those initially opposed to the position I am exposing are probably the first to strongly agree on this. But this argues for the sociological national identity, even if non-sovereign, to be regarded. Wikipedia has this strength of having access to the reality from within societies from its international contributors, and it must harbour it. We know that if people wait for the authorities to reflect the reality of society, one will wait a while (and have before).

"Quebecer", "Quebecois", "Quebec", beyond any "nation" debate, indicates the social grouping in which this individual most often acquired the tapestry of his being, inscribed her or himself into the world fabric and left the center of the imprint of her or his legacy. The social reality of a distinct society is central to the discussion about a subject.

So, what is the sociological reality in Quebec? An vast majority of Quebecers consider Quebec a nation (75% to 85% from what I'm reading) and therefor Quebecer a nationality. A majority consider themselves "Quebecers only" or "Quebecers first". If it were up to themselves, Quebec would be recognized a nation in the Canadian constitution. The only people stopping this are Canadians; why should they, of all peoples on Earth, be those with the supreme authority to judge the nature of this Quebec people, before anyone else and before Quebecers themselves? Their own National Assembly of Quebec has affirmed solemnly that Quebec was a nation on repeated occasions, as Prime Minister of Canada Harper has reminded us again recently.

Furthermore, WP:MOS tells us that "[w]here known, use terminology that subjects use for themselves (self-identification). This can mean using the term an individual uses for himself or herself, or using the term a group most widely uses for itself." It also suggests to "[u]se specific terminology".

Neutrality
Quebecer is the neutral form. In Quebec, someone saying they're a Quebecer is a Citizen of Quebec. Someone saying they're a Canadian is a federalist Citizen of Quebec. This indicates a preferable standard, "Quebec(er,ois)" (and exceptions are of course debatable: "from Quebec, Canada" when there's a strong ambiguity and "Canadian" in special cases, like Trudeau, let's say). But also, as exposed in the "Precedents" section, considering the sociological sphere (what some call "nation") of the subject and identifying it is a wide custom on Wikipedia and elsewhere. Treating Quebec differently from these other nations while the "national" consciousness there is often equal or stronger is called being biased.

So for the person who would still wish to challenge the "Quebecer" denomination, I would cordially enjoin them to make on Wikipedia Daniel O'Connell a British political leader, Sean Connery a British actor, Alex Salmond a British politician and Yasser Arafat and Mahmoud Abbas Israeli politicians. When this user has reached the consensus with the articles' respective authors to keep these changes, people like me will be happy to reconsider this position. --Liberlogos 23:48, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Political rhetoric aside, I find I am in at least partial agreement with the above - something that might be inferred by my opening of this discussion. That said, I do caution against the invocation of precedent on Wiki. I think I need not point out that the creation of flawed articles is one unfortunate side effect of this valuable project. Furthermore, I cannot help but note that at least two of the examples cited replicated the respective entries in full.
 * I know a great deal about Hubert Aquin, but little or nothing concerning Daniel O'Connell, Sean Connery, Alex Salmond, Yasser Arafat, and Mahmoud Abbas, and would not presume to contribute to these entries. It has been suggested that those questioning the Quebecer designation attempt to reach a consensus with the editors of these articles. How very unfortunate that the editors of this entry haven't been accorded a similar courtesy. Victoriagirl 22:11, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

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