Talk:Hubris/Archive 1

contemporary hubris (Larry Wall quote)
the contemporary bit seems like it isn't necessarily referring to the same phenomenon (Anon)


 * I'm sure it is - deliberately turning the concept upside down, making hubris a virtue for retorial effect. However, I don't think it belongs in the article anyway.--Niels Ø 10:09, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC)

I still think the modern hubris section doesn't add much, excepting perhaps the Larry Wall quote, though that would need more explanation. It seems too much like speculation (and by wikipedians, not by someone we're reporting on), is overly general, and I don't think you can make it specific ("examples of hubris are.." heh, watch the row erupt :). Martijn Faassen 21:08, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Cocky winner movie clip
There is a short clip of a bicycle race showing one of the contestants almost winning the race, and while getting close to the finish line he raises his arms in victory gesture, loses balances, falls and loses to the second contestant who came right behind him. Now, that's hubris. Is there a way to embed movie clips in Wikipedia?

I am concerned about the use of Odysseus as a perpetrator of hubris. I do not recall him ever committing an act in self indulgence that was punished by the gods. Thoughts?

Odysseus didn't sufficiently praise Athena for her help in the Trojan War. Athena seeks vengeance but not his demise; thus he his punished by Zeus and then Athena askes that Odysseus be allowed to get home in the end and she helps him reclaim his house and wife.

Military hubris management techniques?
The article claims:

'''Military organizations have long realized this and many take great care to build in organizational structures and procedural controls to limit its dangers. Such restraints are less likely to be found in other fields.'''

Is there any actual evidence for this, or is this just speculation? There are plenty of instances of military dictators with hubris that their organizational structures ("built with great care") were unable to suppress, after all.. Some more details would be useful, otherwise I'm going to remove that. Martijn Faassen 3 July 2005 17:03 (UTC)


 * Since nobody spoke up for it, I've now removed that section. Martijn Faassen 21:28, 24 July 2005 (UTC)


 * I think that was a good edit. Thanks.  Nandesuka 23:54, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

A Few Minor Additions
Hi everyone, eu prattein. A new poster here, my name is Charlie Campbell, writing from Chicago IL. I added the Hellenized spelling of the word ('hybris') at the beginning of the page, since one sees that more and more in publications these days and to the list of figures punished for hybris the suitors in the Odyssey. I also noted Nick Fisher's monograph on hybris in the References section, it being the only book-length treatment of the topic that I know of. Perhaps someone should write up a brief philological examination of places where the word appears (it shows up at least once as early as the Iliad, more than 15 x in the Od. etc etc etc). It's always been translated as something like 'overweening pride', but that definition seems to be due for some general revision/qualification. Charlie

Oedipus the King/Oidipous the King
These two spellings go to the same place, but Oedipus is redirected to Oidipous. Can someone fix this?

Hubristic Characters
Can anyone give me citations showing that any of the characters in the list of hubristic characters are actually described as hubristic? The suitors in the Odyssey definitely are, but Odysseus, for instance, in the Odyssey is definitely not. How much of this stuff is based on the great 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica article? We really shouldn't be relying on something that old. Charlie 16:06, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Odysseus exhibits Hubris
If hubris is pride, than Odysseus exhibits this when he yells out his name to the Cyclopes in Book IX. He thus informs the Cyclopes his name out of pride, making the Cyclopes' father, Poseidon, inflict his wrath upon Odysseus. Thus, Odysseus takes 10 years to travel home from Troy.

Hubris is also shown by many in Greek plays such as those by Sophocles (Oedipus in Oedipus Rex, and Creon in Antigone). Someone put these into the article please, because I suck at that sort of stuff :-)


 * I don't think you've read the discussion that's been going on, nor do you seem to have read the article on 'hubris' as it stands now. The main points of recent discussion, which have now been incorporated into the article, were that hubris, as it was used by the Greeks, does *not* mean pride, that this interpretation is a *modern projection*, and that the distinction needs to be observed.  Read the article and previous discussion (especially Akhilleus's fine post and my response to it) if you're interested in why, for instance, the references to the putative "hubris" of Odysseus and the heroes in Greek tragedy were deleted.  Charlie

Better Summary
The summary of Aristotle's quote near the top was poorly done. It makes it seem like there was no motive for the shaming except pleasure. "In Aristotle's view, a hubristic act is one that inflicts undeserved shame on the victim for the gratification of the perpetrator." This leaves out the most important part of Aristotle's quote, the explanation of why this type of act caused pleasure; it was for greater honor. It was a kind of sum-zero game, played in the arena of honor. To say it was done merely for self-gratification, inaccurately portrays the Greeks as ruthless barbarians. (Note: I am not saying it was ridiculous nonsense.)


 * (Note: Here begins a new comment on the unsigned comment directly above.  This comment regards the alteration of the *summary* of hubris in general found at the very top of the article, and not the summary of Aristotle's definition.)


 * In my opinion the article as it stands now is innaccurate. The fact that Aristotle gives a definition is significant and noteworthy, but that doesn't mean it's the be all and end all of definitions.  The general summary for the Hubris article was meant to reflect the conclusions of Fisher and McDowell and others (of course incorporating Aristotle as well).


 * The remark about "ruthless barbarians" vs. honor-loving Greeks is an unsupported personal opinion. In any case, the idea that committing hubris is essentially about gaining honor fails to take account of prominent usages of the word (and this is not my original research, but culled from scholarly sources).  Aeschines' Against Timarchus springs to mind.  Or the suitors' behavior in the Odyssey: there, there is no suggestion that what is foremost in the suitors' minds is a desire to gain honor; they just want to have a good time and won't let any social boundaries hold them back.  (One could go on.)  The conclusion of recent classical scholarship seems to be that an act of hubris involves--at least--someone acting on his impulses in violation of a recognized social boundary between him and a person of equal or greater social status, an act which by its nature results in dishonor for the victim.  The summary definition--which has now been altered--was written in the first place to reflect this conclusion.


 * I'm not going to revert the changes, but this is something that should be discussed further. Generally speaking, I think it would be nice if people posted a comment to the talk page *before* making changes to the article itself. Charlie — Preceding unsigned comment added by Campbel2 (talk • contribs) 15:49, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

"Hubris cycle"
What is the "hubris cycle" in all of this? I have looked high and low and can't find it other than in college syllabi. Is it similar to the aristeia in Homer's work? It seems there is always a little hubris in those — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dbayer50 (talk • contribs) 23:46, 13 November 2006 (UTC)