Talk:Hugh Trenchard, 1st Viscount Trenchard

SYSTEMATICAL ATTACK ON CIVILIANS
This britsh area bombing directive nr. 42 lead to a systimatical attacking of the geman civil populatiuon. the british attacks were concentrated on workingclass quarters and midivael citycenters. The goal was pure terror against civilians. The amount of civilian loses were enormous. In Hamburg (55.000 dead, in Dresden betwenn 25.000 and 35.000 dead, in Pforzheim 20.277 dead ,31,4 % of all inhabitants, in Darmstadt 12.500 dead, 66.000 homeless out of former 110.000 inhabitants, Kassel 10.000 dead, Heilbronn 6500 dead, Würzburg 8500 dead etc. Churcill, Harris, Lindmann and many other bristish politicians and military personell was not sentenced for his warcrimes after the war.--Kastorius 16:44, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * And what does that have to do with Trenchard? -- Necrothesp 18:16, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Many of the listed bombing raids were made in response to similar German raids, but this really does have very little to do with Trenchard.--86.135.32.176 18:26, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

It's true that Trenchard wasn't directly involved in the bombing policies implemented by Allied air forces during WW.II. However, he had been a forceful advocate of strategic bombing as an instrument of war and it was largely due to his influence that this philosophy was established within the Royal Air Force, during it's formative years. Perhaps that should be noted in the main article. --J.Fowler —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.145.241.235 (talk) 11:30, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Flying school and wings
The following comments have been copied from my talk page:


 * I have read the German article Hugh Trenchard, it is very rudimentary and misses a lot of material. There is nothing about his time in africa, almost nothing about pre-wwi, little about wwi and not enough about WWII. Also it lacks the more important boxes at the end of the article. In the english article under subchapter "Flying School" we should clarify under which circumstances Trenchard earned his wings. Ralph Barker writes in his book that it was only possible for him to do it before he was 40 years because he was helped by a friend who was with him in Africa who then worked at the flying school. Also a friend of mine who is in the RAF has found it very doubious how he could accomplish to earn his before he got 40. He thinks that Trenchard had signed the papers probably by himself. Is there any explicit mention in the Andrew Boyle source about this incident? I dont have this book in my library. Outstanding work on the english article so far. Greetings --Panth (talk) 10:40, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I have responded here:


 * Boyle goes into some detail on Trenchard's time at the Central Flying School (pp 100 to 114) but does not mention how he earned his wings exactly. Boyle notes that he was appointed school examiner and points out the irony of this (presumably in light of Trenchard's educational difficulties).  The http://www.rafweb.org/Biographies/Trenchard.htm page, does mention how Trenchard earned his wings and I have included it in the article.  As regards the age of 40, Boyle implies (p 96) that Trenchard needed to get his civilian aero certificate and enroll at the CFS before 40, not complete his course / get his wings. Greenshed (talk) 14:11, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Use of capitals on awards
There has recently been a bit of reverting regarding whether orders of chivalry should be capitalized or not. My view is that:
 * "...saw Trenchard made a knight commander of the Order of the Bath and..." is correct and that:
 * "...saw Trenchard made a Knight Commander of the Order of the Bath and..." is wrong.

Essentially, it's all to do with proper nouns. In the above sentence, "knight commander" is not a proper noun and so does not receive capitals. The Order of the Bath is a proper noun and so is capitalized in both cases. When a title is directly attached to a person then it becomes part of that person's name and so is a proper noun, otherwise it is not. Eg. "Commander McDougal is a doctor" (correct), doctor McDougal is a Commander (incorrect on both counts). Greenshed (talk) 16:55, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I disagree, due to the fact that in the Order of the Bath the level of knight commander when used in its entirety is "Knight Commander of the Order of the Bath" a full title and a full honour; requring capitals. In the case of this article it should be "...saw Trenchard made a Knight Commander of the Order of the Bath. The whole thing is the honour and the title, not just a section of it. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 04:29, 9 September 2008 (UTC)


 * But, generally, why should any honour be given initial capitals unless it is a proper noun? So we do not write that "Smith was given a Purple Ribbon".  In the case of the Order of the Bath, the order is a proper noun as so always receives initial capitals. Greenshed (talk) 23:53, 9 September 2008 (UTC)


 * They are given initial capitials as they are proper nouns. You do not say someone was awarded the victoria cross or made a companion of the order of st michael and st george, but Victoria Cross and Companion of the Order of St Michael and St George as they are official decorations and require capitals. As I stated above, the full title and honour in this case is "Knight Commander of the Order of the Bath" in one; it is not split into sections. See Order of the Bath. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 10:56, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The "Victoria Cross" (treated as a class of award, not as an individual medal) the and the "Order of St Michael and St George" are proper nouns because they describe unique entities. A "recipient" of the Victoria Cross or a "companion" of the Order of St Michael and St George are not unique entities as there are many such recipients and companions.Greenshed (talk) 12:29, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what you mean about the Victoria Cross being a class of award, as it is an individual medal, but regardless of what you or I think, if one is to view the page on the Order of the Bath one would find that "Knight Commander of the Order of the Bath" is one single honour and emplements capitals, as does it in other orders specified on their acticles and the acticle Knight Commander. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 08:00, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, I think that we both agree that "Victoria Cross", "George Cross" etc should receive capitals. This is because by convention in English we write "Jones won the Victoria Cross" (note use of the definite article).  I would argue that if the convention were to say "Jones won a victoria cross" (note use of the indefinite article), then "victoria cross" would not be capitalized is it would refer to an individual medal not to the Victoria Cross as a single entity.  However, this is not the case and so the question does not arise.  As regards this article, if we were to write "Trenchard was appointed the Knight Commander of the Order of the Bath" then I would be in favour of capitalizing "Knight Commander".  However, by convention we do not treat "Knight Commander of the Order of the Bath" as a single honour (there are many such knights commander and we write "a knight commander" accordingly).  As to content in other articles, this may or may not be correct - I didn't see any citations on this specific question - do you know of any? Greenshed (talk) 18:42, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Beatty and Trenchard
The recent addition to the article, cited from Lambert, Andrew - Admirals: The Naval Commanders Who Made Britain Great (2008):
 * "Trenchard promised Beatty that control over naval aviation would gradually return to the Admiralty and Beatty took him at his word as a gentleman. It was only later that he realised that Trenchard had no intention of doing so and had acted in 'bad faith'"

is at odds with the other sources (Boyle et al) which make it clear that Trenchard argued directly with Beatty, making plain his view that, in principle, the air force should control all forms of military aviation. It seems unlikely (verging on the contradictory) that having put this point across, Trenchard would then immediately promise that that control over naval aviation would gradually return to the Admiralty. It also seems unlikely that Beatty would have accepted an argument which ran along the line of "you let me have all the aircraft and later I will let you have some of them back". Are there any other sources which back up Lambert? How much detail does Lambert go into on the Beatty - Trenchard exchanges? Generally, I suspect that Lambert is not correct on this point and that he makes the point to back up his anti-RAF view. Greenshed (talk) 18:34, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Having looked at Lambert, I have noted that he does not write that Trenchard offered Beatty the return of naval aviators or aircraft. I have reworked the article accordingly. Greenshed (talk) 17:56, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Helping the Japanese
Trenchard received an Order_of_the_Sacred_Treasure from Japan in 1921. Does anyone know why he received this? If he got it for helping the Japanese, and why would they give him a medal if he didn't, it could have been some of his reason for being so dissatisfied with his part in WWII. --68.44.13.238 (talk) 12:17, 23 March 2010 (UTC)Chezzo Osman


 * Given that I can find no evidence of Trenchard even visiting Japan, I suspect that the award was a matter of protocol (note that Sir Frederick Sykes was awarded the Order of the Rising Sun, Second Class). Great Britain and Japan were allies in WW1 and, in 1921, Trenchard was the professional head of the Royal Air Force, the junior branch of the British Armed Forces.  This award along with several others was probably part of Japan's recognition of their allience with Great Britain.  However, Japanese army aviation was organized into a separate chain of command within the Japanese Ministry of War in 1919 and surplace British aircraft were accquired.  If you can find any evidence that Trenchard assisted the Japanese then that would be most interesting. Greenshed (talk) 09:17, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Swiss therapy-by-bobsled
Some similarities with Eddy V. Rickenbacker's biography, including age at death, caught my eye. Both having gone to the Alps, both recovering full use of legs after bobsleighing there, apparently point toward myth-making, and-or biography borrowing/elision in the public mind. This doesn't detract from the achievements of either aviation pioneer. Rickenbacker's definition of success(loss of interest/numbness to compliments, money, and publicity)is especially telling about the fellow. -Matthew Johnson —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.211.236.131 (talk) 10:15, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

New biography
Apprently Dr. William Sheehan is writing a new biography on Trenchard (see http://www.amazon.co.uk/William-Sheehan/e/B001JOYT1C). This could well be of use in improving the article. Greenshed (talk) 20:17, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

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Febrile political atmosphere in April 1918
Hello, just flicking through this article apropos of some work I'm doing on the politician Sir John Simon who worked for Trenchard in WW1. It might be worth commenting that Trenchard's falling out with Rothermere came at an absolutely febrile time amidst much mutual recrimination for the near-disaster of March-April 1918, culminating in the Maurice Debate. Northcliffe and Rothermere had been thorns in the government's flesh earlier in the war, but by this stage Lloyd George had "bought" them with political appointments, so the opposition had migrated to the "Morning Post"; there were some moves towards and attempted government press clampdown. Lloyd George's fears that elements in the military were plotting to bring down the government were exaggerated but not entirely without foundation - there is no doubt "Wully" conspired with Frederick Maurice to try to cause the government political difficulties. I don't really want to edit the article as I'm not an RAF specialist and I don't want to clog it up with endless more stuff. It might be interesting to know the degree, if there is any evidence, to which Trenchard was in touch with others.Paulturtle (talk) 18:48, 11 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Not sure if the situation in the Air Force at this time with Trenchard (and also the resignation of Sir David Henderson) is directly relevant to The Maurice Debate. It certainly seems to have played into the febrile nature of moment though. Perhaps there might usefully be a separate article on the Foundation of the Royal Air Force which could cover this. I'm at bit busy at the moment but it might be interesting to create such an article in time for the 100th anniversary of the creation of the RAF next year. As to your specific question, Miller's recent biography of Trenchard says that although "Wully" and Trenchard were not close, Trenchard nonetheless sought advice from the recently deposed CIGS when he himself was thinking of resigning.  Robertson heard Trenchard's complaints but told him to do what seemed right according to his conscience (Miller, Boom, pp. 197, 198).  Greenshed (talk) 02:33, 22 December 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks, that's useful. For what it's worth I was just today preparing some material on the Maurice Debate ...Paulturtle (talk) 00:56, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

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British English with Oxford spelling
This article was written in British English with Oxford spelling. User:Juanpumpchump wants to change this (see the user's edits in the article's edit history). MOS:RETAIN states that "An article should not be edited or renamed simply to switch from one variety of English to another." Greenshed (talk) 21:30, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Hi, you obviously feel that strong about the subject then lets leave it there and no need for any edit war etc.

Regards

Juanpumpchump (talk) 06:52, 23 November 2018 (UTC)