Talk:Hugues de Payens

Comment
Hughes de Payens was pupil of Schlomo ben Yitzchak. A link between Knights Templar, Gnosticism, Kabbalah and Baphomet... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 01:08, September 17, 2005 (talk • contribs) 84.61.10.86

According to a second version, Hughes de Payens was born in the city of Forenza in Basilicata, (ancient Lucania), Italy and bore his father's surname, "Paganos",or "Pagan" who was a norman ruler and his wife Emma. That changes perspective of the whole genesis of the "Pauperes Commilitiones Christi Templique Salomonici", or Knights Templar Order, and moves it to middle ages Italy, to a region that was enriched by different cultural influences up to that period,(Pagan,Greek,Lungobardian and Normanic cultures)... After founding the order, they joined the Crusades lead by French royalty, and departed to the Holy Land. December 11th, 2008, Roxane Larocca. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.4.55.32 (talk) 16:37, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Dude this is rediculous and you cite no sources. Edgemaniac (talk) 03:01, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Naming
I reverted an edit to the page that tried to change the name from "Hugues" to "Hughes". This is an occasional misspelling. The correct name is either the French spelling, "Hugues de Payens", or the English version, "Hugh of Payens". The "Hughes" spelling is just a confused version of the two. Currently the article title is at Hugues de Payens because I feel that's the most commonly-seen version of the name, but if anyone really wants to move the page to Hugh of Payens, we can definitely talk about it. --Elonka 16:22, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Wife of Hugues de Payen
Added "In Popular Culture" section to insert the claim that Hugues de Payen married Catherine St Clair, since this is really only part of the recent romantic histories of Rosslyn Chapel. The historical record states that his wife was really Elizabeth de Chappes, and this is what is found on the French Wikipedia version of the article: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugues_de_Payns Wfgh66 (talk) 00:44, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Merge proposed
If I've understood correctly, this is the same fellow as Hugues de Payens: the dispute is over his place of birth. It appears the Italian wiki briefly had both articles but has merged them under the French name, it:Hugues de Payns. There is much discussion on the Italian talk page, which I admit I haven't yet read.

The Catalan wiki describes him as (of course) Catalan. See ca:Hug de Pinós. That's not much help, except to suggest that no one has the faintest idea where he came from. And rew D alby 13:26, 11 May 2012 (UTC) OK, thanks to all. Since there was no objection I have made the merge. I could save an external link from the page "Ugo de'Pagani", and I retrieved a book citation from that link. I would have loved to save something more, because the existing Hugues de Payens is weak, to say the least, but I honestly couldn't. It was completely unsourced. All the material about the First Crusade and the founding of the Order at that time was fiction. There is no evidence known to me, or cited on Wikipedia, that Hugues/Ugo was in Palestine at that period. And rew D alby 13:31, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Merge as proposer. And rew D alby  14:55, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Merge certainly. He sounds Scottish to me! The French name was no doubt used in Outremer. Johnbod (talk) 13:59, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Merge, although we could certainly mention the uncertainty about his birthplace. (I see no reason to doubt that he was French, though.) Adam Bishop (talk) 16:57, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Merge: Same guy. Scolaire (talk) 18:58, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Merge: I note that while the discussion on it:Hugues de Payns is about moving it to the title of this one, the main connection between that discussion and it:Ugo de' Pagani seems to be that the main proponent of moving the article was apparently the author of the one reference given in (the pre-merger version of) it:Ugo de' Pagani. While both the Italian and the Catalan claims to Hugues de Payens may be worth mentioning (neither, I think, is outright impossible), both do look fringe and should probably be indicated as such. PWilkinson (talk) 09:41, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, there is one after all. The chronicler Simon de St. Bertin (don't look for him on Wikipedia, Marco made him a redirect to Ugo de' Pagani!) really does seem to say the order was founded just after the First Crusade. He doesn't name Hugues/Ugo, but his work is not fiction and I can add it to the article. And rew D alby  13:57, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Marco Antonio Sorrentino
Dear friends, I read your thesis... I am Italian, but I swear this does not influence my research. The data about the Italian origin of Ugo de' Pagani are many, but I have not had time to translate all my research, you can find it in Italian on Ugo de' Pagani. In Italy the topic Ugo de' Pagani has become a taboo, because despite historians and heraldists of every age and nationality have always supported his Italian origin, from 1800 on, some novelists have begun to support his French origin. Thanks. - Major Marco Antonio Sorrentino


 * I can't think of any English or French historians who have ever said he was Italian. "Novelists" have nothing to do with it, because we wouldn't use novelists as a source on Wikipedia. The evidence for his French origin is a bit circumstantial - the other original Templars were French, the original patrons of the Templars were French, the count of Champagne especially - presumably he supported the order because Hugh de Payens was also from Champagne - but also Bernard of Clairvaux, Fulk of Anjou, etc. I will read your research when I have a moment, but let's not pretend there is any nationalist bias here. It just makes more historical sense if Hugh was from Champagne. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:26, 14 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Okay, Marco, now that I've read your Italian article, I still don't see why you think he was Italian. In fact this "controversy" seems to exist only in your article and nowhere else. I do not see any modern secondary sources that say he was Italian (or at least, no academic ones that would be acceptable for Wikipedia). Is this your own original research? If so, I would suggest publishing it in an outside source. Otherwise it is not suitable for Wikipedia. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:34, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Only there??? Read: http://www.facebook.com/Hugo.de.Paganis http://hugodepaganis.blogspot.com/ http://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1JN_2XJklenCBzacfbEzDjW_w2dSgKytEvE0nLSCC_lI http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:Mario_Moiraghi/Sandbox http://www.tonyassante.com/renzoallegri/templari/indice.htm http://www.osmtj.com/date.htm http://www.templars.it/ugodepaganiL.html http://faculty.ed.umuc.edu/~jmatthew/naples/templar.htm http://www.storiainrete.com/619/medio-evo/i-templari-sono-%C2%ABmade-in-italy%C2%BB%E2%80%A6-altro-che-francesi/ http://www.templarisanbernardo.org/A%20Ferrara%20la%20tomba%20di%20Uo%20dei%20Pagani%20primo%20magister%20templare.htm http://forum.nexusedizioni.it/litaliano_che_fondo_i_templari-t4143.0.html http://apocalisselaica.net/varie/miti-misteri-e-poteri-occulti/l-italiano-che-fondo-i-templari http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=59414627202&v=info — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marco Antonio Sorrentino (talk • contribs) 14:08, 15 May 2012 (UTC)


 * A bunch of blogs and Facebook pages are not suitable sources. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:17, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
 * In any case, this isn't relevant to the merge question. He is one man, therefore he should have one Wikipedia biography. If there are eventually some reliable sources saying that he was born in Italy (or in Catalonia), this issue of his place of birth should form part of his one biography page. I mention this here, Marco, because you haven't yet commented on the merge proposal. And rew D alby  09:12, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Some French cheats
The following paragraph is unencyclopedic. I have moved it to here. Something similar can be put back in the article if (1) it uses encyclopedic language ("cheats" is out, for starters), (2) it can by reliably sourced, and (3) it goes into the article proper, not the lead.

''Under the gallicised version of his name, Hugues de Payens, recently some French cheats adopted him as their fellow countryman, saying that he was born in Payns, in the Champagne region, but: Scolaire (talk) 08:14, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * ''The gallicised name don't correspond with the original versions of his name (Paganis, Pagani, Pagan).
 * Payens neither correspond with Payns''.
 * ''Payns didn't exist in the Middle Age.
 * ''They chose the Champagne region only because its name resemble to the Campania region.
 * Italian historians showed many times that he was born in Nocera de' Pagani, in Italy.


 * I have found one source in English (I don't speak Italian) that says Hugo was born in Nocera. It is the 1869 Baedeker. --Scolaire (talk) 09:15, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * That's a very useful find. It's not a reliable source for the history (it's too old, and not a history book anyway) but it is a highly reliable source for the fact that this view has existed.
 * Since there has been no objection to the merge, I am inclined to go ahead and do it. It would be good to add more references to historians who have taken the non-standard view (see the claim above, Italian historians showed many times ..., for which we don't yet have references) because I don't think anyone's claiming that his place of birth is certain. On the other hand, the claim above that Payns didn't exist in the Middle Age seems false; I understand (haven't re-checked this right now) that there are even the ruins of a Templar commandery there. [Yes, see fr:Commanderie de Payns.] And rew D alby  09:40, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The only other authoritative source for the claim that I can find is the equally old Catholic Encyclopedia article on Nocera dei Pagani. A modern book which makes the claim is Mario Moiraghi's L'italiano che fondò i templari. From the Amazon page (even Italian Amazon) I would guess it doesn't have much of a following, but it's probably worth mentioning. A Google translate of this page will give you an idea of what he says.
 * I agree that the articles can and should be merged right away. Scolaire (talk) 10:18, 23 May 2012 (UTC)


 * And, the Commandery of Payns has been founded a lot of years after Ugo de' Pagani. I think that the whole article is very trustworthy... The 99% of possibilities say that he was Italian, from Nocera de' Pagani. TheRibbon (talk) 12:12, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Just for the record, the comment above, signed "TheRibbon", was added by Marco Antonio Sorrentino (see diff). And rew D alby  15:06, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Merge
I am currently adding material about alternative views of Hugues de Payens' origin. This results from the merge of the page "Ugo de'Pagani", which existed to highlight an Italian claim to him. And rew D alby 13:35, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I've finished for now. There's plenty of room for improvement though! References need checking and more useful material will certainly turn up. And rew D alby  14:57, 24 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Well.. the new article is very good! If you need more infos about Ugo de' Pagani, visit the blog Ugo de' Pagani, I just completed it. I added the Google Translator widget, I hope you'll can understand. MAS (talk)