Talk:Huineng/Archive 1

Hui Neng
Huineng may be technically correct, but Hui Neng and Hui-Neng are very common even in respected publications. It’s Zen. Let’s not cling to words.

Whatever it should be, let's be consistent in the article. I see "Huineng" and also HuiNeng through the course of the Article. There are also several spellings coexisting for some of the other names. Thanks. Dr. Z 18:23, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Poems
The translations are kind of wacky. Does anyone mind if I replace them with the Red Pine translations? Yunfeng (talk) 17:18, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Great idea, Red Pine's are much better. Bertport (talk) 18:14, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

A red link in the see also section is based on the following....
--222.64.21.119 (talk) 01:38, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
 * http://www.spiritandflesh.com/Zen_Buddhism_poems.htm

--222.64.21.119 (talk) 01:47, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
 * http://sl.iciba.com/?module=thread&act=viewthread&fo_id=71&th_id=54388&author=flyyitome

--222.64.21.119 (talk) 02:01, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
 * http://www.china2551.org/Article/fjwx/n/Index.html

--222.64.21.119 (talk) 01:41, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
 * http://buddhism.lib.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-JOCP/jc26596.htm


 * http://scholar.google.cn/scholar?hl=zh-CN&q=Huineng+poem+%E8%8F%A9%E6%8F%90&btnG=%E6%90%9C%E7%B4%A2&lr=&as_ylo=&as_vis=0

A proper translation is beneficial for song writers to generate music accordingly —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.64.21.119 (talk) 01:43, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Text removed
The statement quoted below is unreferenced, and I cannot find a reference for it. It only appears in the introduction and is not even elaborated in the article proper. I have copied it below:
 * While these are the legendary accounts handed down by the tradition, it is believed by some that the actual history of the situation may have been quite different, to the extent that some believe that the primary work attributed to Huineng, the Platform Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch (六祖壇經), which ended up becoming one of the most influential texts in the East Asian meditative tradition, has no true association with him.

If someone can find a reference for this, and can write it up properly, the by all means put it back in. --Gak (talk) 01:53, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I seem to remember that Bernard Faure, a leading expert on the history of Zen Buddhism, deconstructed the story of Huineng's authorship as a legend with little or no factual basis. If this is so, the entire article represents a faith perspective rather than a historical one, but an expert on Zen Buddhism would be needed to check this, and if needed fix the contents of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.226.87.165 (talk) 17:12, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The Huineng of the hagiography is not a historical figure - he was invented by Shen-hui (684-758). You can read as much [|here, in the publisher's summary of Inventing Hui-neng, the Sixth Patriarch Hagiography and Biography in Early Ch'an by John Jorgensen. The article as it stands now presents hagiography as historical fact, which is a problem. Here is the summary of the book, which reflects the contemporary scholarly consensus:


 * "It was through the propaganda of Shen-hui (684-758) that Hui-neng (d. 710) became the also today still towering figure of sixth patriarch of Ch’an/Zen Buddhism, and accepted as the ancestor or founder of all subsequent Ch’an lineages. The first part of the book analyses the creation of the image of Hui-neng and the worship of a lacquered mummy said to be that of Hui-neng. Using the life of Confucius as a template for its structure, Shen-hui invented a hagiography for the then highly obscure Hui-neng. At the same time, Shen-hui forged a lineage of patriarchs of Ch’an back to the Buddha using ideas from Indian Buddhism and Chinese ancestor worship. The second half of the book examines the production of the hagiographies of Hui-neng, how they evolved, and the importance of ideas about authorship and the role of place. It demonstrates the influence of Confucian thought, politics and the periphery in the growth of early Ch’an hagiography and the changing image of Hui-neng.Sylvain1972 (talk) 20:32, 15 April 2011 (UTC)"


 * This has been a controversy for some time, and this sort of issue is best discussed until contributors come to some agreement, or a solution that is respectful to both sides is taken. Using the Jesus page for a reference might be good in this regard, as the subjects are both a figure who is held in very different regard between religious followers and scholars. A more balanced page might have something like (1) In the Platform Sutra, (2) Role in the Zen school, and (3) Modern scholarship. With subjects like this, some tact is needed to reach a fair outcome that respects traditions while presenting some views of academics as well. By the way, it seems from the quote that the author is implying that Huineng was a real person, but simply that Shenhui inflated his importance. There should also be some care taken with academic sources to qualify them on controversial matters or those which have not been widely accepted. The general trend in scholarship is often to be a bit brash and iconoclastic in order to generate attention within the field.


 * I was reading part of this book, and the author gives some misinformation that the Shurangama Sutra is a "Chan apocrypha", which is baffling for multiple reasons. He has apparently never read it, because there is no Chan content in it, nor is it anything that would be created by someone from the Chan school, northern or southern. Arguments against the text's authenticity were more or less debunked by Ron Epstein a few decades ago. Tengu800 (talk) 00:00, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Photograph
Who is depicted in this photograph? It is sourced to a Vietnamese wiki page that has been taken down. I doubt this is the actual subject of this article (who was never photographed), although it is an image that crops up on several web sites. Does anybody know the provenance of this image? Perhaps it should be removed and, if a public domain image can be found, replaced with a suitable artistic portrait of the subject. Desertpapa (talk) 17:50, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * It's the mummy of Huineng Joshua Jonathan (talk) 21:17, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/Translations/PlatformSutra_McRaeTranslation.pdf
 * Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/Translations/PlatformSutra_McRaeTranslation.pdf
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First paragraph CORRECTION
He was not a monk.

He is famous in part for being a LAY teacher/zen master. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.40.137.197 (talk) 08:11, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

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McRae
Where does the quote referred to by footnote #6 (McRae 2003, p. 65-66) come from? It certainly isn't in McRae's text linked to below. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Leiduowen (talk • contribs) 10:18, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * It certainly is; I just checked the source. Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  11:27, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by User:31.124.15.14
User:31.124.15.14 is engaging in disruptive pov-pushing and edit-warring, trying to remove the fact that modern scholarship regards Huineng to be a "semi-legendary" figure, repeatedly removing or changing the following:

IP is edit-warring against 6 editors:
 * 1)  12:32, 28 September 2019
 * 2)  12:46, 28 September 2019 (4 edits in row)
 * 3)  13:00, 28 September 2019 (2edits in row)
 * 4)  13:30, 28 September 2019 (2edits in row)
 * 5)  01:23, 29 September 2019 (2 edits in row IP 80.2.20.119)
 * 6)  10:05, 29 September 2019 (3 edits in row, ignoring "in use" template)
 * 7)  11:44, 29 September 2019 (10 edits in row)
 * 8)  12:26, 29 September 2019

Numerous warnings have been provided at their talkpage; see User talk:31.124.15.14: Revision history. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!  11:24, 29 September 2019 (UTC)


 * There are other IPs doing the same. 80.2.21.102 and 80.2.20.119 have also removed content to obscure the scholastic views of Huineng. Dharmalion76 (talk) 15:13, 29 September 2019 (UTC)


 * I've requested page-protection. Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  04:58, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Widr configured pending changes settings for Huineng: Persistent disruptive editing [Auto-accept: require "autoconfirmed" permission] (expires 18:57, 2 October 2019 (UTC)  JimRenge (talk) 05:22, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Semi-legendary
It is weird why would anyone insist that Huineng is a semi-legendary figure based on some cynical views of some scholars. BTW, Amazon has only ONE review of that book which makes that claim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neutralperspectives (talk • contribs) 00:01, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Because the "biographical" story from the Platform Sutra is exactly that: legend. Representing the views of scholars is the basic aim of Wikipedia; it's called WP:RS and WP:NPOV. But we could also follow the sources exactly and write "legendary," if that's what you prefer. Regarding cynical:
 * I don't see any ridicule or admonishment with McRae. On the contrary, see "Seeing thriugh Zen," p.xx: "Cold realism eliminates dismissive misinterpretation." Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  07:20, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
 * The link to McRae's 'Seeing through Zen' is broken- it was redirecting to the Archive.org version of the Platform Sutra translation. I found the PDF online, but I'm not sure if the site it was hosted on is legitimate or if it is a copyright violation. In the wording in the introduction I can quibble a bit about the characterization of the scholarship- 'reveals' is quite strong for historical text scholarship, unless someone has found a rough draft with an authorship statement. I would change that to 'suggests,' but also add the caveat that essentially no historical information on Huineng can be found outside of the Platform Sutra and hagiographies like the Transmission of the Lamp. --Spasemunki (talk) 02:29, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
 * The link to McRae's 'Seeing through Zen' is broken- it was redirecting to the Archive.org version of the Platform Sutra translation. I found the PDF online, but I'm not sure if the site it was hosted on is legitimate or if it is a copyright violation. In the wording in the introduction I can quibble a bit about the characterization of the scholarship- 'reveals' is quite strong for historical text scholarship, unless someone has found a rough draft with an authorship statement. I would change that to 'suggests,' but also add the caveat that essentially no historical information on Huineng can be found outside of the Platform Sutra and hagiographies like the Transmission of the Lamp. --Spasemunki (talk) 02:29, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Amyxqhuang.

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Invention
For this comment:

Twentieth century scholarship revealed that the story of Huineng's Buddhist career was likely invented by the monk Heze Shenhui, who claimed to be one of Huineng's disciples and was highly critical of Shenxiu's teaching.

where in the sources can this conclusion be drawn? Can the citations have specific page numbers added? 135.134.188.39 (talk) 01:56, 1 June 2023 (UTC)