Talk:Human Rights Torch Relay

The start
Much information here is extremely biased, though still somewhat verifiable. For instance, the phrase "Chinese communist regime's human rights crimes" itself (found on the Human Rights Torch Relay's website) sparks a myriad of negative connotations. Kyinaire (talk) 17:54, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
 * See Human rights in the People's Republic of China or or  or another million sources, saying basically the same thing "Chinese communist regime's human rights crimes".  --HappyInGeneral (talk) 08:42, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Association fallacy, Argument from ignorance, Argumentum ad populum. Also note that you are selective in what sources you use. Amnesty and Minghui? I've never seen such a fallacious argument. --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email 07:11, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Still, the phrasing does not fit with WP:NPOV. It's now changed to "human rights violations in the People's Republic of China".--PCPP (talk) 11:22, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Merge proposalwith the CIPFG article
Any reason for it? --HappyInGeneral (talk) 06:52, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Notability of the event? it could always come under a section under the CIPFG article. I don't see how the one event is all that notable. --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email 07:09, 8 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with the merger proposal. This is just one event in the campaign of the CIPFG to discredit the Communist Party, and that's where this stub belongs. Ohconfucius (talk) 09:25, 8 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Disagree with the merger. This one event went through 5 continents, and 150 cities and everywhere it received media attention. How can it fail WP:NOTABILITY? --HappyInGeneral (talk) 13:25, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * One event which can always come under a larger article. WP:INDISCRIMINATE. --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email 14:11, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Show me how it fails WP:NOTABILITY and then you might call it WP:INDISCRIMINATE. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 14:24, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Benlisquare. This event is non-notable and could easily fit in a sub section of CIPFG article as one of their activities.Teeninvestor (talk) 02:06, 16 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Leaning towards supporting merge. Reason being WP:N. Colipon+ (Talk) 02:00, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Also leaning toward supporting merge. The event seems to have been notable, but we also have something else to consider. Personally, we want as many of our articles in wikipedia to stand a good chance of GA or FA status as possible. Right now, in all honesty, it is very hard for me to see how this article will ever have any real chance of ever achieving that status, based on the comparative lack of amount of content. Of the two articles, the one on the body which sponsored the race, the CIPFG, looks to me to have a much better chance of getting enough content to have a reasonable chance of achieving that status, considering the number of things it has been involved in. By merging this content into that article, it's chances of reaching that level are I believe substantially increased. If they remain separate articles, I have very serious questions whether either one would ever have a realistic chance of reaching FA or GA status. John Carter (talk) 17:47, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I also agree with the merge, per the reasons given above.--Edward130603 (talk) 22:40, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Agree with merge. This might even be a good example of notability in favor of CIPFG and should for that reason be included in the CIPFG article. I noticed that the HR Torch Relay has been forcibly inserted into the article about the Olympic Torch Relay as well. That's a premeditated attempted association to a well-known brand, that is. / PerEdman  23:05, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Endorse merge Ohconfucius (talk) 14:24, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Contesting the merger with the CIPFG article
Per Talk:Human_Rights_Torch_Relay. Please provide feedback. Thank You! --HappyInGeneral (talk) 23:43, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Weak disagree with merge and weak support for splitting. This google news search:  clearly demonstrates a substantial number of hits that do not mention "Falun gong" or even the word "coalition".  This firmly establishes for me that this relay has grown to a scope/scale that has attracted interest beyond just CIPFG and the issue of Falun Gong.  On the other hand, I think the best course of action for those wishing to split it again would be to expand the section to the point at which it becomes cumbersome and would make sense to have its own article.  The article that was merged was not very long which is why I don't feel strongly either way.  Cazort (talk) 18:13, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree I need to work on it and expand it. But that should be easy because I already did the research while I was looking for the third party sources. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 23:57, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Needs updating
The race "is planned" to run through 150 cities? It isn't over yet? John Carter (talk) 18:28, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I wanted to find out more, but the official webpage is pooched and the wikipedia article doesn't tell me anything else. / PerEdman  23:07, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Pounding drums and crashing cymbals welcomed nearly 100 people who gathered to listen to guest speakers and music at the Human Rights Torch Relay. // The awareness relay, which included a torch headed next for Edmonton, aims to span six continents, 40 countries and an estimated 150 cities. It is being done in advance of the 2008 Beijing Olympics. (May 20, 2008)
 * Since it was lit on Aug. 9, 2007, in Athens, Greece, the torch has traveled to 115 cities across the world; Vancouver is its last stop in Canada. (May 20, 2008)
 * We're sorry. The article you are looking for cannot be found.
 * Kai, now a U.S. citizen, is part of an international movement called the Human Rights Torch Relay that is spreading this message across 37 countries on five continents, including more than 36 U.S. cities. // More than 100 people gathered in Lincoln Park on Saturday to support the torch’s Chicago run // Other “human rights torches” were simultaneously run in Detroit and Evansville, Ind. (May 14, 2008)
 * The name servers for this domain (humanrightstorch.org) are incorrectly configured. Please contact your domain name administrator for further assistance.
 * Conclusion: Needs deletion or merger with a notable article. / PerEdman  23:15, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Did the gathering ever manage to pull more than 100 visitors in US and Canadian cities? / PerEdman  23:17, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Notability
As promised (now I had a bit of time) and came back with a list of sources substanciating notability:
 * 1) http://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/news/195011 Torch relay targets oppression in China
 * 2) http://www.sfweekly.com/2008-04-09/news/olympic-torch-protestors-pump-money-into-the-local-economy The plane bit is rivaled perhaps only by the advertising for the Human Rights Torch Relay in Union Square last Saturday on the sides of MUNI buses and a prime billboard spot visible from the Bay Bridge near the Fifth Street exit.
 * 3) http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/243245/Human_rights_activists_hold_torch_to_China Sev Ozdowski, Australia's former human rights commissioner, told a crowd of 200 that the torch relay was a reminder that the Olympic spirit was linked to human rights. "The Human Rights Torch Relay is about people's power," he said at a welcoming ceremony at Sydney Town Hall. "Not that long ago, people power crumbled the Berlin Wall and brought an end to the Soviet empire." Greens Member of Parliament Kerry Nettle was the first Australian to run with the torch. "It's a message with the Olympic spirit of people working together," Nettle said. "It's a message the Chinese government needs to hear loud and clear."
 * 4) http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/20/MN1GVMLVE.DTL In the days leading up to the Olympic torch event on April 9 in San Francisco, a Tibetan Freedom Torch and a Human Rights Torch that are traveling around the world will make stops for relays in San Francisco. Organizers expect thousands of people at those events.
 * 5) http://au.christiantoday.com/article/the-relay-for-human-dignity/3271.htm The Relay for Human Dignity
 * 6) http://www.thestar.com/article/268020 Athletes pawns over China's human rights. In August, veteran Canadian politician David Kilgour helped organize a global "human rights torch relay,'' launched in Athens, to highlight human rights abuses in China.
 * 7) http://cbs5.com/politics/Tibet.SF.rally.2.681983.html?detectflash=false The resolution would further honor the Tibetan Freedom Torch and the Global Human Rights Torch Relay, also due to make stops in San Francisco this year.
 * 8) http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/letters/story.html?id=67ce54d7-cce8-49c4-9b23-99bb4f3da6ce The Global Human Rights Torch Relay of the Coalition to Investigate Persecution of Falun Gong (CIPFG) in China is the most diplomatic way to call for an improvement of the human rights in China.
 * 9) http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0408/p01s03-ussc.html In San Francisco's Chinatown, support for the torch relay Wednesday has more to do with cultural pride than political concerns.
 * 10) http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/university-news/2007/10/29/protest-criticizes-chinese-imprisonment-torture/ Protest criticizes Chinese imprisonment, torture. Human Rights Torch Relay — a worldwide torch-carrying campaign intended to publicize China’s human rights records. The Olympics present a unique chance to bring China’s abuses to the rest of the world’s attention, Lin said.
 * 11) http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/university-news/2008/04/28/china-protests-descend-on-green/ Police up security as student response to Human Rights Torch relay draws hundreds
 * 12) http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?article=DPP+lawmakers+call+for+boycott+of+2008+Olympics&id=17436 The Coalition to Investigate the Persecution of Falun Gong in China (CIPFG) is planning to hold a global human rights torch relay to draw attention to allegations of human-rights abuses.
 * 13) http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2007/06/15/2003365324 Worldwide human-rights torch relay plan announced
 * 14) http://www.californiachronicle.com/articles/view/41487 Human Rights Torch Relay Appeals to Tournament of Roses Association over Beijing Olympic Float
 * 15) http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?pp_cat=11&art_id=63634&sid=18243751&con_type=1 The Falun Gong has slammed Hong Kong's strict immigration control in the run-up to the August Olympics, claiming it has prevented 80 percent of its Taiwanese members from attending a human rights awareness event in the territory.
 * 16) http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/opinion/2007/August/opinion_August63.xml&section=opinion&col= Shadow boxing with an Olympic giant
 * 17) http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0708/S00244.htm Global Human Rights Torch Relay About To Kick Off
 * 18) http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,22657782-5005361,00.html Human rights torch relay arrives in Australia
 * 19) http://www.cpbn.org/competing-demonstrations-regarding-olympics-china + Interview New Haven was one stop for the Human Rights Torch Relay, a multi-city, international campaign to raise awareness for human rights abuses in China.
 * 20) http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/apr/09/protesting-the-torch/ Human Rights Torch Relay - an alternative event that will visit many nations and 40 U.S. cities
 * 21) http://www.westchester.com/Westchester_News/Sports/White_Plains_Human_Rights_Torch_Relay_Events_200804279641.html White Plains, NY - The Human Rights Torch Relay (HRTR) will arrive in White Plains on Saturday, May 3, 2008.
 * 22) http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=684668&category=&BCCode=&newsdate=4/29/2008 The Human Rights Torch Relay, which will traverse six continents, 40 countries and 150 cities, will make a stop in Albany Wednesday.
 * 23) http://www.seacoastonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080407/NEWS/804070316/-1/PUBLICRECORDS05 The relay will take place from 9 a.m. to noon starting in Market Square in downtown Portsmouth. Activities include a 1.5 mile walk loop around Strawbery Banke, followed by a rally in front of North Church with speakers, petitions and music.
 * 24) http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/02/world/asia/02iht-taiwan.1.6954303.html The human rights torch will be lighted in Athens on Aug. 9, and the relay will cover about 100 cities worldwide.
 * 25) http://www.projo.com/news/politics/content/TORCH_RELAY_03-24-08_GN9FRUL_v13.27ba87f.html Providence is site of torch relay
 * 26) http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-33681947_ITM GLOBAL HUMAN RIGHTS TORCH EXPECTED IN BALI ON SATURDAY.
 * 27) http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Torch_of_2008_Summer_Olympics_won%27t_travel_through_Taiwan The effects are indicated to be notable after Executive Yuan of Taiwan will promote the "Torch of Joining UN" in October 2007 and the "Human Rights Torch Relay" project by Taiwan newspaper Epoch Times in June 2008.

This is not everything I found, only a sample of it. For example (I speak Romanian) so I can show you the result from the Romanian press: http://news.google.com/archivesearch?pz=1&ned=us&hl=en&q=Torta+Drepturilor+Omului&cf=all And I'm sure this event is all over the world.

For academia sources (which is not necessarily typical for an event like this) see here: http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?hl=en&q=%22Human+rights+torch+relay%22

Best Regards, --HappyInGeneral (talk) 23:29, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Not so sure... WP:BOMBARD? --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email 01:35, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * What you need to be sure about? Please read: "When is bombardment negative?" from WP:BOMBARD --HappyInGeneral (talk) 17:13, 3 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Of course, many events are more notable than the organisation which sponsors/organises it, so this is merely my obesrvation: the text is a good fit for the CIPFG article right now; HRTR appears to bolster the notability of CIPFG, which would be otherwise below the bar. Stripped of it, it will likely fall prey to AfD. Ohconfucius (talk) 01:53, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I would still prefer going by WP:N and have this article restored. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 17:13, 3 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Notability_is_not_temporary. It is a publicity attempt whose 15 mins of fame has exhausted, and its domain has already expired. In addition, pushing for the article in according with your personal agenda violates WP:PROMOTION and WP:COI--PCPP (talk) 07:50, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Quoting Notability_is_not_temporary : "Notability is not temporary: a topic needs to have had sufficient coverage in reliable sources to meet the general notability guideline, but it does not need to have ongoing coverage from news sources." This article is not about an event that happened in 15 minutes, and its coverage was more then 15 minutes. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 18:01, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * A few points. It should be noted that WP:NOTABILITY is a guideline, not a policy. To say that "policies" are involved when all that is being discussed is a guideline, not a policy, could very easily be seen as neutral outsiders as misleading, possibly intentionally so. It should also be noted that even that page itself indicates that there are other factors which may determine whether a given topic merits a separate article, in the last paragraph of the lede section, but that seems to have been somehow overlooked. I myself, who favored the merge, did so on the basis of the rather pronounced lack of content in the then-existing article, which was, as I remember, five sentences and three images. Many neutral outsiders would say that if, using all the sources on a given subject available, only five sentences of content can be gotten together, that the subject may not have received enough "significant" coverage to merit its own article, and I also note that the word "significant" is specifically included in the guideline page. My own personal opinion regarding the best way to approach this issue, which would also be the way most likely to persuade others to support a separate article as well, would be to add all the encyclopedic reliably sourced content which can be gotten from the sources to the article that this one has been redirected to, and by so doing demonstrate that there is enough content to merit a separate article.
 * There are some, few, FAs and GAs which are rather noticably short. Maximus the Confessor is one such article. However, it is noticably harder to merge the biographical details of an individual into non-biographical articles. I myself have no objections to a separate article if there is enough content regarding the subject to call for one. I did not see such content in the five sentence article that was merged. Addressing those concerns, rather than trying to minimize and somewhat ignore the comments of those who, like me, acknowledged the notability, but didn't see the content, would probably be more effective. Among the material which could be reasonably added to the article is a list of the cities the relay went through. I notice that it was expected that it would run through 150 cities, and think that such a list might reasonably be sufficient to merit spinout, if nothing else as an article on the list of cities the relay went through, which could probably include most if not all of the five sentences of text. John Carter (talk) 18:35, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree John. It is on my list to do it. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 20:20, 4 September 2009 (UTC)