Talk:Human rights in China/Archive 1

Organ Harvesting
The media often portrays organ harvesting of executed prisoners in China as a bad thing, WHY? If a person is dead and you can use his remains to help save the life of a child dying in a hospital, why not? An opposing viewpoint needs to be added to this, for it can potentially deny another person's basic right to live. --Lssah 88 21:50, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


 * That is ridiculous. Why not say you can take the organs out of any dead person? The reason that doesn't happen is that the government would never dare do it for offending Chinese people. The bodies of dead prisoners have a right to be respected as well.
 * Besides, it is not as if there is even a law to make this legal. The government denies it happens - why would they deny something that is good? Their repeated statements that it doesn't go on indicates they know it shouldn't happen. John Smith&#39;s 23:19, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, the government recently admitted the existence of organ harvesting, and in fact are prepared to standardize the practice:
 * http://www.guardian.co.uk/china/story/0,,1756808,00.html
 * And if you read to the bottom, there is a quote mentioning that prisoners must give consent before their organs are donated. I have provided these appropriate additions to that section accordingly.--Lssah 88 02:16, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * They had been denying it before. And the consent argument is disputed. John Smith&#39;s 18:04, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I have added more viewpoints from the support side.--139.142.135.1 20:14, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * And they're completely unsourced, so I removed them. If you do add some references, I'll put some up that say it's barbaric, etc. John Smith&#39;s 21:23, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Your claim that authorities are violating the prisoner's consent is unsourced too, so I have added a citations needed. In addition, you are misleading in your edit in saying that it was the doctor who said consent had to be given, when in fact, it was an American who gave those statements based on his experience when his wife had a transplant in China. I have edited it accordingly.--Lssah 88 00:14, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I didn't say it was a doctor - the guy who put the article in did. John Smith&#39;s 13:26, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Someone added a POV check tag for some reason months ago. I've had a look and can't say as I have any problems with it, so removed it. John Smith&#39;s (talk) 10:12, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia in China
Is anything like wikipedia legal or allowed in China? Is it likely that the government would attempt to limit or restrict public participation in community such as this?


 * See Blocking of Wikipedia in mainland China. TastyCakes 16:44, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * there is chinese clone of Wikipedia by Baidu i think... i believe it is monitor... Akinkhoo (talk) 01:57, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Except wiki in Chinese, other parts of wiki was allowed since 1st April.

Why China?
Why there is only Human rights in China, but no Human rights in United States or Human rights in Canada or something like Human right in X? (even no Human rights in Hong Kong or Human rights in Macau) Is that because human rights in China needs special attention, while others do not? Maybe we need to creat a page like List of human rights in all countries? --Gboy 04:29, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Yes: Human rights in the United States. --Jiang


 * Thanks, Jiang. Any more countries? --Gboy 03:52, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)


 * Not that I know of. --Jiang


 * Other than Human rights in the United States and Human rights in China, I see Human rights in Haiti, Human rights in Cuba, Human rights in Macau, Human rights in Hong Kong, Human rights in Afghanistan, Human rights in Cambodia, Human rights in India, Human rights in Indonesia, Human rights in Iran, Human rights in Iraq, Human rights in Japan, Human rights in Kazakhstan, Human rights in North Korea, Human rights in South Korea, Human rights in Kyrgyzstan, Human rights in Laos, Human rights in Malaysia, Human rights in Mongolia, Human rights in Myanmar, Human rights in Nepal, Human rights in Pakistan, Human rights in Philippines, Human rights in Russia, Human rights in Saudi Arabia, Human rights in Singapore, Human rights in Sri Lanka, Human rights in Syria, Human rights in Tajikistan, Human rights in Thailand, Human rights in Turkey, Human rights in Turkmenistan, Human rights in United Arab Emirates, Human rights in Uzbekistan, Human rights in Vietnam, Human rights in Albania, Human rights in Belarus, Human rights in Bulgaria, Human rights in Croatia, Human rights in Finland, Human rights in France, Human rights in Germany, Human rights in Greece, Human rights in the Republic of Macedonia, Human rights in Romania, Human rights in Russia, Human rights in Switzerland, Human rights in Turkey, and Human rights in the United Kingdom. --CRGreathouse 04:31, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

That comment was made 2 and a half years ago anyway. (Plus China are prolific abusers.) Skinnyweed 17:31, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Probably because China has a particularly bad record on human rights -- much, much, moreso than the United States or Canada.

What is strange in this article is that so many mentions of the US : "US Human Right says that this and that", and so on. Maybe the title of this article should be changed into "US views on Human Rights in China". I can assure you that "Chinese views on Human Rights in China" would differ a lot (even if not full pink at all), and "Chinese officials views on Human Right in the US" could be nice also :-) gbog 07:00, 2004 Jun 27 (UTC)

not quite...the first and third paragraphs have no mention of "U.S." The fourth paragraph has a sentence begininng with "The PRC government has acknowledged in principle ..." --Jiang 08:21, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

In response to the "why is this page necessary?" question, a paragraph lifted from Amnesty International's website:


 * In 2003, 84 per cent of all known executions took place in China, Iran, the USA and Viet Nam. In China, limited and incomplete records available to Amnesty International at the end of the year indicated that at least 726 people were executed, but the true figure was believed to be much higher: a senior Chinese legislator suggested in March 2004 that China executes "nearly 10,000" people each year. At least 108 executions were carried out in Iran. Sixty-five people were executed in the USA. At least 64 people were executed in Viet Nam.

Others Falphin 15:03, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
 * The argument you are trying to make with that quotation from AI is flawed. Raw figures alone are extremely misleading considering China has 1.3 billion people. Taking the 10,000 executions/year figure, the percentage of the population executed each year is still way less than a fraction of a percent, which is comparable to execution rates in the US and elsewhere! Those capital punishment figures have no relevance with human rights abuses in China UNLESS you can provide sources to indicate a significant percentage of those executed were wrongfully accused due to human rights violation/neglect of rule of law by the authorities. I have deleted that section accordingly.--Lssah 88 19:16, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Why is the second statement irrelevant? It talks about what the organisation regards as being an overly large number of crime capital punishment can apply to. It also says it thinks the total number of executions is much higher. John Smith&#39;s 15:44, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The second statement is irrelevant because that has more to do with the nature of PRC's judicial system. Just because capital punishment applies to those non-violent crimes you listed doesn't make it an actual human rights abuse, and those executions that have been carried out for those non-violent crimes must have been of severe nature for it to warrant a death sentence. If Enron's CEO was tried for his crimes in the PRC instead of the US, he would certainly receive a death sentence and one cannot argue the carrying out of justice as a human rights violation.


 * I hope you see some of the fallacy with those two statements for AI have a way explaining things out of context for people to misinterpret them. They belong to another article and not this one.--Lssah 88 19:37, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


 * No, I don't think they should be both removed. The first could be removed because it's still unsourced. But the second isn't and it makes a relevant statement about capital punishment. John Smith&#39;s 23:22, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The second statement makes a relevant statement about capital punishment but not to human rights. Capital punishments does not equate to human rights abuses, I don't understand how you have a hard time seeing that. It's like saying the US is violating the rights of condemned criminals when they put them to death on the chair, which is a ridiculous assertion.--Lssah 88 02:22, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * No personal attacks


 * Regarding your comments above There is no excuse for personal attacks on other contributors. Please do not make them. It is your responsibility to foster and maintain a positive online community in Wikipedia.


 * Some suggestions:


 * Discuss the article, not the subject;
 * Discuss the edit, not the editor;
 * Never suggest a view is invalid simply because of who its proponent is;
 * If you feel attacked, do not attack back. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:00, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Scope of this article
This article is about human rights in mainland China. Hong Kong and Macao are excluded. &mdash; Instantnood 11:50, Feb 13 2005 (UTC)
 * they should be included. please add them --Jiang 12:12, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

They should be separate articles if there were. &mdash; Instantnood 12:21, Feb 13 2005 (UTC)
 * why? a whole bunch of the beef about HR violations in HK is relating to the central gov't. --Jiang 13:07, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hong Kong has its own judiciary and law enforcement. Could you name some examples of violations of human rights in Hong Kong by the central government in Beijing? &mdash; Instantnood 13:42, Feb 13 2005 (UTC) -

Changes Chinese views and American views to the views of the PRC and US governments. There are plenty of people in the PRC that don't agree with the Chinese government, and there are a surprisingly large number of Americans (mostly business people) who do.

Also the argument missed a *BIG* part of the PRC governments argument. The PRC doesn't argue or generally care if the PRC has better or worse human rights than the United States. The argument is:

1) the United States doesn't have perfect human rights and is no position to lecture. 2) that major changes in the political system can be disastrous (see Russia)

Roadrunner 23:10, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"China"/"PRC" vs. "mainland China" for page titles
Following the long discussion at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Chinese) regarding proper titling of Mainland China-related topics, polls for each single case has now been started here. Please come and join the discussion, and cast your vote. Thank you. &mdash; Instantnood 14:51, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)

this article are not NPOV
this article mostly use western people's opinion, not chinese view. and the chinese gov's view are less.

Gee, what a surprise. --DA Roc 00:51, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

so? are we supporting NPOV? O_o Akinkhoo (talk) 01:58, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The complete opposite; this articles looks as if it has been tampered with by the Chinese Government. --67.84.207.247 (talk) 02:29, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Maybe if the Chinese government stopped blocking Wikipedia to Chinese residents, we might get a wider variety of viewpoints. LearningKnight (talk) 17:03, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

National Socialist Germany
I've removed the reference to the 1936 Summer Games, as they were awarded to Germany before the National Socialists gained power.
 * Exactly what version of history are you referring to? Hitler came to power in 1933.  I'm putting the reference back in.  TastyCakes 18:30, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

so what if chinas general poverty and personal development oppertunities have improved. an improvement from squaller and disgusting hell is still way way below average. china should only have the audacity to boast about its general situation when it is good in an absolute sense not just "good considering its china". i live in guangzhou at the moment and there are at least 2 homeless people on every street, the air pollution is simply disgusting. how about the human right to BREATHE! furthermore, china treats animals horribly, full grown german shephards are chained in cages barely big enough for them to move in for there whole lives until they are EATEN! man i cant wait to go back home to australia NOTE:i am aware that australia currently treats refugees the way china treats dogs

-- Australia eats refugees?


 * Human rights abuse refers to actions by the country's government. All of the complaints of the Aussie above are things done by the general population (such as mistreating dogs), which refelcts the overall quality of the people. That's like complaining about red-necks in the US, and list that on the US human rights page. And talking about hypocracy: Aussies treat other human beings like Chinese treat dogs, which is worse? Furthermore, if the Aussie is unhappy in Guangzhou, he is more than welcome to return to his down-under. It's not like China needs more people, especially of his kind. And please at least have the courage to sign your statement if you are going to bitch. Pseudotriton 19:10, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

removing arguments regarding olympics
the olympics have always been exploited as political tools, although they should remain purely a celebration of athletic spirits, peace, love, communicating and understanding, etc. (here is more about political interference to olympics.) the arguments in this paragraph are not well-founded and are irrelevant to the topic of this article, which should deal with the status of Human rights in the People's Republic of China. --roc (talk) 04:00, 17 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I think that's fair. This is an article on human rights, not the Olympics.  TastyCakes 18:39, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

names of ethnic minorities
The bit about the character "dog" being used in the names of ethnic minorities is completely POV. First of all, it makes it seem like all names of ethnic minorities were written with the "dog" character, and secondly, implies that the use of this character is proof of Han Chinese having low regard for other ethnic groups.


 * Hmm well is it true? And did it not suggest a low regard for these minorities, by whoever set the language at least, as well as general acceptance by those who used it?  I can't think of a "nice" reason they'd refer to people as dogs in their writing, and if Europeans used this sort of terminology until 1950 I'm sure it would be mentioned in human rights articles.  TastyCakes 16:07, 25 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Your comment reflects a lack of knowledge of the Chinese written language. Chinese characters are composed of many radicals, some of which hint at meaning, others at pronunciation, and others which are there for reasons that have been lost to history. For example, sudden, "突", contains the dog radical, but it does not imply that the Chinese have a low regard for "sudden" things. Nor does it mean that the Chinese refer to sudden events as dogs in their writing. Your comment is akin to saying that the word "niggardly" is proof of the low regard of English speakers for Africans. I suggest that you refrain from making such POV statements in articles in the future if you lack sufficient knowledge to back it up. It is clear that you are simply trying to advance your own POV agenda against China with whatever bits of "information" you can get. Please see Chinese character for more information on written Chinese. You might want to read a bit about how languages develop, too, since I don't recall any one man who "set" the Chinese written language several thousand years ago.


 * Ok look, I don't really care if it is taken out of the article, and you're right I can read very little chinese, although I understand that many components are phonetic or have long since lost any logical connection with their original meaning. But if the naming is totally innocuous as you say, why was it changed in 1949?
 * The information I put on this page is largely expanded versions of what was here already. To my knowledge it is all accurate and I tried to make it NPOV, and I really don't think I have an "agenda" to bash China on Wikipedia, but if you disagree please help fix the problems.  The naming of minorities thing I came across in a Free Tibet page or something like that, there was very little information there beyond what I put here but I thought it was interesting and worth noting in this article.  If someone more knowledgeable about the subject can confirm it is untrue or a misunderstanding, go ahead and take it out.  TastyCakes 17:14, 28 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Can you provide me a link to the specific names of ethnic minorities that included the "dog" radical and when they were changed? Although Jews aren't an official ethnic minority, their name is still written with the dog radical(犹太) and I don't know of anybody who has a problem with it. If they were changed in 1949 as you say, my guess is that it would be part of the first round of character simplification(see Simplified Chinese character). But I think you will have to learn a bit more about Chinese characters to realize that many of their elements are in some cases completely arbitrary. For example, the "knife" radical appears in many characters that have nothing to do with violence and the "water" radical appears all over the place.


 * As for Free Tibet pages, I'm sure you are aware that most of those groups have a clearly anti-Chinese POV and will use anything they can find to cast China in a bad light.


 * I'm looking for the original link I got it from, but here's one in Wikipedia: Zhuang and from the Australian National University. From that pdf:

"...Before the Party made these determinations, the words “Zhuang”, “Yao” and “Yi” never even existed as terms designating a whole people.18 In fact, the words Zhuang, Yao and Yi all were Chinese epithets used by incoming Han in the loose sense of “primitive” (the written characters all contained the dog radical, denoting savagery). One Zhuang told me that, decades ago, the word Zhuang had been used by his own relatives as a derogatory word in reference to other ethnic groups such as the Yao. The story is that Zhou Enlai instructed that a different character which is pronounced “Zhuang” and that means robust or grand in Chinese be adopted as the name for the newly designated Zhuang people. Similarly, the characters for Yao and Yi were altered to provide them with more favorable connotations. These were then attached to peoples for whom there had not previously been any overarching formal designation."


 * I agree that it's dangerous to use pages that are obviously anti-chinese, but I think it's going to be difficult to find all relevent information on only pro-chinese pages, and almost impossible in the case of human rights. TastyCakes 23:54, 2 December 2005 (UTC)


 * in reply to:"the written characters all contained the dog radical, denoting savagery"my 'ethnic' type has a WORM in it and i am part of the 'han' majority.... i feel so sad am i racisted by myself!? :( Akinkhoo (talk) 02:02, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Other Human Rights Issues
There needs to be more information in this section. For us kids trying to do a project this one little sentence doesn't do squat diddly jack for our grades. (Moved from article)


 * I rearranged the page into sections and moved all the previous information into those sections and added more. Those original items that didn't fit in any of the sections were put under this "Other" category.  I agree they should be expanded, as should most of the other sections.  Also, Wikipedia is full of crap as well as good information.  I suggest if you're using it for a project to make sure you find other sources to back up what it says (this despite the fact that I wrote a good chunk of this article ;)).  I saw CBC News use Wikipedia as a source the other day - how sad is that?  TastyCakes 16:17, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Is Falun Gong a religion?
I saw "Li, has in the past denied that it is either a religion or a cult, despite its using some language similar to Chinese Buddhism and Taoism." in the Falun Gong.

Does it make any sense?
"The use of "Reeducation Camps" is noted. Amnesty International recently released the following statement: In 2003, 84 per cent of all known executions took place in China, Iran, the USA and Vietnam. In China, limited and incomplete records available to Amnesty International at the end of the year indicated that at least 726 people were executed, but the true figure was believed to be much higher: a senior Chinese legislator suggested in March 2004 that China executes "nearly 10,000" people each year. At least 108 executions were carried out in Iran. Sixty-five people were executed in the USA. At least 64 people were executed in Vietnam. It should be kept in mind that there are over four times as many people in China as the U.S."

Does it make any sense?

Why "Perspective of the PRC government" and "Views of the United States government"? They are definitly not neutral at all.

Freedom of Mobility
The freedom of mobility section is kind of hokey right now. I put in the bit about Tibetans needing to register a place of residence, but I think it is difficult for peasants to legally move from one province to another throughout China, is that true? Does anyone know and have sources? TastyCakes 05:17, 23 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Not only Tibetans, but also all Chinese are required to register their residence, even temporary residence. However, this rule is not strictly enforced after the Custody and repatriation was abolished. New rules now set local residence as a major prerequisite for social welfare, such as free education.--Skyfiler 06:03, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

"Move" and "residence" are different. In China, people can move to any place today excpet Tibet, Macao and Hong Kong. Register system have less to do with movement, but it is important for welfare, finding job, buying house, and etc. --Gleader 18:32, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

well china has more people so it may exicute more people it may execute less people poportinally


 * with the possible exception of Singapore, I believe China has the largest execution per capita rate in the world. Compare to the US, roughly 4 times the population, roughly 60 times the executions (if the 10000 figure is to be believed).  TastyCakes 05:40, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Falun Gong website link removed
I don't think that it is appropriate to link to a cult website in human rights page w/o specific reference on why it would be relavant. Perhaps a separate page of Falun Gong and human rights page in China should be there.


 * Falun Gong is an often cited example of China's poor human rights situation. Why is that not relevant?  TastyCakes 22:25, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * FLG is actually a very poltically active, evil cult. These two reasons are why Chinese government wants to purge this cult.  The reason this cult is evil is that the leader Li Hongzhi (whose family is now in US) claims to be God.  It discourages sick members from seeing doctors, etc.  There has been a lot of interests supporting FLG mainly because it serves to show the communist China is the bad guy.  Anyways, since you have added a section devoted to FLG, I think that is okay to include FLG link as a valid reference.  Coconut99 99 10:26, 13 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Who says the FLG are evil? The CCP. The CCP. And the CCP. No one else has a problem with them, because - SHOCK HORROR - they actually aren't evil. John Smith&#39;s 14:37, 13 May 2006 (UTC)


 * As a side-note, there are other religions that object to certain medical procedures, even some Christian sub-groups. Even some Chinese prefer using traditional Chinese "medicines" that don't really improve anyone's health, rather than seek modern medical services. Do you think that they are "evil" as well? John Smith&#39;s 14:44, 13 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, it is evil. It is a crime in fact.  Check Satanic ritual abuse.  Also, you missed the part where Li Hongzhi declared himself as God, the characteristic of an evil cult. Coconut99 99 19:35, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not take a position on the goodness or evilness of anyone or anything. The current section on Falun Gong doesn't do that, so that's not a problem. It does lack an explanation of why the government has outlawed the group, which would make it more balanced. It's a relevant to this article because many people see this as a violation of the human rights to freedom of religion and association. A link to the official Falun Gong website is useful to readers so they can get more information about the group, directly from the group, regardless of whether they approve of them or not. -- Beland 13:01, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not entirely sure why the government outlawed the group, that's why I didn't add it. I've read about Li claiming to be a god and that followers can become gods, and that they are against modern medicine.  I don't know about this satanic ritual abuse stuff though.  TastyCakes 21:39, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * This Time interview with Li makes Falun Gong sound pretty similar to Scientology. On a superficial level at least.  TastyCakes 21:46, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The Falun Gong article seems to have a reasonable explanation, and of course has lots more info on the group. I added a summary here, and I guess we can leave it at that. -- Beland 01:20, 17 May 2006 (UTC)


 * ppl who set themselve on fire can't be a good thing... but i stand neutral on this. Akinkhoo (talk) 02:04, 27 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The part about Li Hongzhi declaring himself a god, and stating that his followers can also become gods, makes me think of how Christianity frequently equates becoming a Buddha as equal to becoming a god. The two words are not interchangeable. I believe that something similar to this misinterpretation has occurred with Falun Gong, considering that it draws in part from Buddhism.


 * The portion of Falun Gong setting themselves on fire in protest has supposedly been debunked by satellite imagery, though I fail to see how satellite imagery can do that. Also, even if some Falun Gong members did immolate themselves as a protest, that doesn't mean that all of Falun Gong is like that. Pat Robertson is not the leader of Christianity, and Jesse Jackson is not the King of all black people.74.67.17.22 (talk) 05:05, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

All the negative point of the views
This page should be POV as it is clearly biased, with all the negative, if not insulting, way of stating PRC human rights. Many views are from western cultural, with little to no understanding of eastern asian cultural backgrounds. Tones of various paragraphs are clearly negative.
 * Can you give some examples? Please sign your comments TastyCakes 22:35, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Since the very first sentence, it has been criticism as the opening sentence in every paragraph. Don't tell me you can't see that.  A better way, or at least pretending to be neural way, is to have a paragraph stating the official policy, and the next paragraph listing the shortcomings or violations of such policy.Coconut99 99 10:47, 13 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Total neutrality is impossible. Can you imagine having half of the Holocaust page about the Nazis' position? Obviously not. The official wiki policy on neutrality, POV, etc has been grudgingly accept by the big cheese himself as being an ideal, not a practical objective. Articles can always be improved, but it's ridiculous to complain because it talks about the lack of human rights in China, which is an undeniable fact. Personally I don't think the page is especially unfair - it could be more detailed, if anything. John Smith&#39;s 14:40, 13 May 2006 (UTC)


 * So, coconut, what do we write when the "official policy" is itself regarded by many as a human rights abuse? Not playing by the rules they themselves set up is only part of the criticism directed at the CCP.  Being that it is an article on human rights, I think having a critical tone is to be expected.  But please feel free to try and make the article more neutral, just don't delete valid information.  TastyCakes 17:27, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Can you name any government in the world which would forego national interest or other matters of interest in the name of "playing by the rules"? Grow up. Western countries appear to play by the rules because they just modify them every time to suit their needs. They are the ones who make all the rules anyway. Pseudotriton 02:16, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, let me paraphrase the first paragraph to describe the United States human rights. It is obviously not NPOV.


 * The situation of human rights in the United States has been criticized by various sources, including international organizations, as being poor in many respects. Past systematic genocides of the native americans by the US government have resulted in death of millions.  "Bloody Sunday occurred on 7 March 1965, when 600 civil rights marchers were attacked by state and local police with billy clubs and tear gas"(Selma to Montgomery marches).  While the consitution guarrantees the civil rights of its citizens, women were not allowed to vote until nearly 150 years after the declaration of independence.  African americans were subject of slavery until 100 years after.  Still they suffered from discrimination specifically targeted to their group.  Racial segregation had denied their access to education and chances improving their social stata.  To this date, racial discrimination against minorities by law enforcement officers are rampant.  Red Cross and other international NPOs have documented serious human rights violations in Gitmo and other prisons run by the US troops, although the US government contended they were few cases and were result of a few bad apples.Coconut99 99 19:14, 13 May 2006 (UTC)


 * 2 things. 1) the condition of human rights in the US may not be perfect, but it is far better than in the PRC and 2) have you read the US human rights article?  See here.  It too is pretty critical.  Everything you mention above (with the possible exception of "rampant " racial discrimination by police) is covered.
 * I really don't know what you want to change here. The tone?  The examples?  If there are factual innaccuracies, change or remove them, but I really don't think there are many.  TastyCakes 19:46, 13 May 2006 (UTC)


 * 2 things. 1) There is a big POV sign on that page, the main subject of this debate.  2) The tone on the united states is significant better than what it is on this page.  Most paragraphs start with a praise of the existing record, then shows the limitation.  The same fact can be written such that opinion of the reader can be influenced to view the matter postively, negatively or neutral.  In a classic example in Chinese, a general revised a report from using the phase "defeated each time" to "fought after each defeat".  Another example is Dihydrogen monoxide hoax.  Now, read the whole page again and tell me that is NOT extremely biased.
 * I don't have the time to edit the whole page, therefore I put a POV sign. There are other comments above expressed their doubts on the NPOV. Coconut99 99 20:25, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, to me it definitely doesn't seem as bad as you're making out. I guess that means I shouldn't be the one to do a rewrite either.. ;) TastyCakes 20:37, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * It is fine as long as you keep that POV sign. It has its use for a reason. Coconut99 99 20:42, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * No it doesn't. It just serves to indicate your personal annoyance. If one person could inset an NPOV tag on every article just because he/she had a problem with it, then every single article on wiki would have one as well. However I'll put a "cleanup" tag on for a while, so as to encourage contributions to improve it. As was said, human rights problems in the US are NOWHERE as bad as they are in the PRC. If you can't accept that then I suggest you go contribute to this new "Chinese wikipedia", where I'm sure you can push your personal POV as much as you wish without anyone coming along with the uncomfortable truth. John Smith&#39;s 20:58, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Claims such as that "human rights problems in the US are NOWHERE as bad as they are in the PRC" can be relative to the culture and other contexts, as well as personal perspectives. It is rather arrogant for one editor to deride another's suggestion as personal annoyance. A quick scan of John Smith&#39;s user page indicates that he's apparently Sinophobic, so who's to say who is paranoid and injecting POV into these articles? Pseudotriton 19:32, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * John Smith&#39;s, my comments here are no more personal than yours, in fact they are less. Considering you a Sinophobe is not personal attack. If you disagree with me, just say so here. Please do not remove my discussion postings. Let's not be childish here. Pseudotriton 22:33, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * So you're telling me a dislike of the CCP and human rights abuses in China is an example of Sinophobia? Ah, and I guess anyone that criticises the Party must be a traitor to China....... John Smith&#39;s 22:59, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh Geez, that classic "separate the government from the country" argument again... only if I get a dollar each time a westerner uses that excuse for China-bashing. Check out the page of Anti-Americanism, the first category in the definition is "prejudice against the government...of the United States". So why not the distinction there? I certainly have talked to many Americans being offended by critical comments of US gov't policies from non-Americans. Many (American?) Wiki editors have compalined about pages such as Human Rights Record of the United States and Overseas expansion of the United States being anti-American, hence the big POV sign at the top. What's the difference here? Anyone denying a western perspective in these Wiki articles need to pull their heads out of the sand.
 * As for the remarks above by the Aussie, he's clearly not talking about the CCP with the story of German Shepherd being chained up in a small cage. (BTW, not that it's really relevant, but I have a big, beautiful German Shepherd living happily in my spacious back yard.) Pseudotriton 02:16, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

One-child policy
I think that it is better leave the details to that specific page, and only briefly mentioning it on the human rights page.

It's a policy with strong support in China, but foreigners, particularly western religious groups see it differently. I don't think that it is necessary to drag into the pro-life vs pro-right debate.

Listing the facts are enough. Coconut99 99 21:01, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * If you haven't noticed, this is a page about human rights in China. Ergo this is the best place to TALK about human rights and related problems. The article makes only brief reference to them as it is. Why is it so bad to introduce someone to the topic?
 * It isn't about the pro-life/right debate. It's about women having abortions forced on them. Whether it is popular in China/ foreigners object is not important. Chinese people can't object to the policy, nor do they have access to all the information about it. John Smith&#39;s 20:32, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * This is not a discussion forum. Please read NPOV policy. If you have opinion, say them in [Opinions on Human Rights in China].  Coconut99 99 21:01, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Of course it's not a discussion forum, but the views of human rights groups are valid! It is not MY opinion, it is that of many other people. Can't you get it through your head that I did not write this page. I'm just trying to stop you remolding it as you want it - I am arguing for the status quo, even not challenging some of your edits. John Smith&#39;s 21:05, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I won't mind IF YOU GIVE REFERENCES. Give me references and I will keep them.  Your personal opinions do not count as facts or status quo. Coconut99 99 21:07, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * What is it you want a reference for? Just tell me here, it's a lot easier. But you have to let SOME THINGS GO. I do not ask for a reference on every single point that it sympathetic to the Chinese government. You can't have a reference on every sodding sentence - stop being so obsessed. John Smith&#39;s 21:12, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, you can say whatever to your own private forum and I won't give it a damn. However, if you want to adulterate FACTS with your opinion on this page, I will continuously pick you on that.  You have to give references, or it is your personal opinion.  Got it? Coconut99 99 21:26, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * What is it you want a reference for? Give me specifics. Do you have a problem understanding? Shall I get a translator for you? Or would you like some English lessons? I'll pay for them if it'll help. John Smith&#39;s 21:29, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Wow, brilliant, now you are picking on my English to avoid the fact you don't want to give references? FACT is not FACT w/o references or evidences.  Should I say British government genocide Irish and Scottish since history from 1ACE to 2000ACE?  Or British government raped 50 million native americans while they took the north america as its colony?  You can spew opinions as much as you want, but not on this page.


 * You still refuse to tell me what the problem is. Why is this so difficult for you? I have said before that not every single sentence or point can have a reference - it would take forever. If you have specific problems please tell me. Otherwise please can you stop complaining. Why are you refusing to help me resolve the problems you feel the article has? John Smith&#39;s 21:48, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Religious freedom
I said already that the article you gave on reconstruction does not mention religious sites. Please give me a quotation and tell me where to find it, or I will keep removing it as you did with my references.


 * "Newly constructed statues of Buddha have been erected at its base and attract a constant stream of worshippers." Coconut99 99 21:05, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * That does not say the government has a widespread policy. It talks about one particular case only. Get another link or it will have to go. John Smith&#39;s 21:13, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Wow, hypocrites. Now you want TWO references for a thing I wrote when you don't want to give references overall.


 * No, it is not hypocritical. That is in reference to one event. So if you want to say that the gov has been doing all this work for religious sites you need to provide evidence for it. It is a big statement. For example, how much money has it spent on such projects? John Smith&#39;s 21:59, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Please do not revert my other edits. Your English and grammar is not good enough - you probably don't even realise it. For the love of God, if you have a problem with something tell me and I'll do it for you. I'm not going to repeatedly try to improve your English when you muck about with something that is already fair and makes perfect sense. John Smith&#39;s 20:32, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * My English is good enough to remove statements that are merely opinions, NOT facts. Coconut99 99 21:05, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmm, you are British. Coconut99 99 21:11, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes and thus I have a much better command of the English language. Also, what is a "fact"? Something that the Chinese government says? John Smith&#39;s 21:13, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * If you have better command of language, how come your sentence structure is so bad? Please, read the one-child policy paragrah, it doesn't have any logical flows.
 * FACT is something you have evidence/reference to support. If evidence/references are bad, that's a whole set of different thing to argue on.  Government quote is at least more trust worthy than your own opinion.
 * PS, have you EVER written any research papers? Please, refrain your words to facts, not opinions.


 * No, I haven't. So what? Are you saying you have? If so then you cannot use it here, according to wiki policy on personal research.
 * You said: "If you have better command of language" This itself is flawed. Can you understand why? John Smith&#39;s 21:25, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Did you even see what I was arguing on? Your overall structure on that one-child policy did NOT have any logical flow and full of opinions.  Whenever you couldn't argue, you would tranfer the topic to something else.  First time you pick on my username, this time pick on my grammar that I spent 5 sec to type?

Can we all just calm down a bit? I don't think coconut's english is that bad, although he does seem to be pretty delete happy at the moment. I think there's a number of things about human rights in china that need to be in this article, and I think we all agree on most of them. It seems to me coconut's problem is mostly one of how that information is presented, is that right? TastyCakes 21:50, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * CNut, I am not putting in personal opinion. They are things that anyone who can access free information on the topics in question would know. As I keep saying, if you tell me what things you want references for then I can see if I can find them. But why is it a "fact" if suddenly I have a web-link? How do you know the source is reliable? I think you put a request for the point I made about religious organisations denying they want to interfere with China's politics. Do you really think they do? Because I have heard statements that the government is paranoid on the matter. It's not my fault if you personally haven't paid attention to this dispute, but I have. John Smith&#39;s 21:54, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I am from China and I do not see any issue with religious freedom. My family went to buddhist temples in Wu Tai mountains in the province of Shanxi every year, along with our friends. We have a bunch of churches in Taiyuan, Shanxi.


 * Interesting. So how do you get around the firewall restrictions on this site? Anyway personal research is forbidden on wikipedia, as people often tell me. John Smith&#39;s 16:53, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * proxy, tunneling and l33t been around for as long as the internet existed. net censorship is as old as net... and anti censorship is as old as censorship itself, it just a matter of you know k0ngfu or not... >;) back to topic, CCP expect the religious leader to be accountable political and watches their action. but the PEOPLE are norminally free to practice religion. this is original research, i really think more people should visit china and see it because article tend to be outdated quickly at the pace china is transforming. but this is unrelated to what should be on the article (x_x") Akinkhoo (talk) 02:21, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

POV
This page is clearly full of opinions. I've made attempt to adjust the tone, as well as flow in this page. However, John Smith has been reverting changes that anyone who even remotely attempt to adjust the tone on this page. See arguments we had above. My efforts have all been wasted. And I am really tired of manually editing while he has been doing all the reverts.

As the result, I will just have to put a POV tag on this page. If John Smith continues to remove this POV tag to pretend some highly partial, opinionated page as NPOV, I will have to write a robot program that automatically inserts it back. Serve this as your warning. Coconut99 99 00:08, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Then you will get banned for violating 3 reverts. Skinnyweed 00:19, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I am just going to insert that POV-check tag. Nothing else.  John himself has done numerous reverts on the edits I made. Coconut99 99 00:41, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * PS, edits by TastyCakes on one-child policy is much more readable. There are numerous other places, however, still opinionated and poorly structured.  Looking forward for more of your edits. Coconut99 99 01:09, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know who added the part about wealthy people bribing their way around the policy, but I'll try and find a source. TastyCakes 01:19, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Personally I felt that part is really not needed. Bribery exists in every single country out there.  Even with citation, it feels strange. Coconut99 99 01:26, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Perhaps, but I think there's a difference between bribing people for everyday things and bribing people not to force your pregnant wife to have an abortion. If verifiable, I think it is relevent to human rights because it suggests that in practice rich people have reproductive rights that poor people don't.  TastyCakes 01:41, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I think differently, since one-child policy is a law and it is unlawful to bribe an official. A more convincing statement is basically list state officials with more than one child AFTER the policy is in effect.  If officials are obeying the laws same as other Chinese citizens, what's the big fuss about it?  Rich people always have more rights (think about OJ Simpson and Michael Jackson's cases) with more connections and lawyer helps.


 * And in fact, years ago when I was in China, newspapers regarding one-child policy sometimes complained the fact that this policy was well enforced in cities, but poorly in poor rural areas, because they have nothing to lose with more babies. They would just travel to relatives or through other means to avoid getting detected.  There was comedy on this subject on annual Spring Festival broadcast.  There was a memorable documentary where a reporter went to the west region of China found very poor families.  The reporter interviewed a couple on why they were poor.  The man answered that the land was barren so the life was difficult.  The reporter then gave the couple a few dollars and a lot of their children came to thank him.  The main reason being poor immediately became obvious.


 * In 1950, there were 400million Chinese, and now 1.3+ billion. If China doesn't want to double the population to 3 billion in another 50 years, then it is rational to have population control.  Just look at India where voluntary birth control is totally ineffective and its population is exploding (1.38%, do some math and see after India's population 20 years).  By comparison, many western states have zero even negative population growth, so of course you guys never consider it a problem.


 * Compared to starvation of 1.3billion (think of Africa where they live on aids), one-child policy is a much more humane approach.


 * If you seriously want to see why population is a problem, just go to China and discover it yourself.Coconut99 99 03:11, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that the one child policy is not a black and white issue. But I think it would be a stretch to say it shouldn't be mentioned on a page about human rights in the PRC.  As it stands the article spells out why there is a policy and its more controversial points.  I think that is appropriate, of course a bit of tweaking remains to be done, as with everything else.  I'm going to change the bit about bribery.  TastyCakes 04:06, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

POV problems in the introduction
These by-country human rights articles are very difficult to get right, especially in the introduction. I'm not sure I'm satisfied with our coverage of any particular country at the moment.

Wikipedia's policy of neutrality means that articles shouldn't express any opinions about whether a given country's human rights record is good or not. Instead, they should report and summarize facts and third-party opinions.

I know of two entities that systematically rate and report on most or all countries in the world - Freedom House, and the U.S. State Department.  The State Department report for China calls the government's human rights record "poor", citing a logn list of specific concerns, and some promising developments.

Part of the attraction of Freedom House's rankings is that they convert them into a numerical format, making it easy to compare the overall situation (in their view) across countries. They have different rankings for different parts of the PRC:

Does anyone know if there are any other notable systematic human rights rankings, especially ones with a non-Western perspective? We can add them, along with responses from government officials and supporters of each country.

Another thing to do in the intro is to simply list the most frequently cited areas in which "violations" of human rights are said to occur. This can help readers get a flavor of the severity and nature of the problems by letting them make up their own minds, instead of presenting an analysis which tries to do it for them.

Any thoughts before I try to do a rewrite? -- Beland 02:38, 17 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not opposed to rewriting the introduction, but isn't it already stating third party opinions and examples of abuses? I agree specific names should be given to the parties making claims.  Adding ratings from places like Freedom House (which I haven't heard of) sounds ok, but I don't know about in the intro.  Too many better known groups, like Amnesty, don't have such ranking systems and while giving an overall indicator for certain freedoms, I think a lot of China's unique human rights issues prevent a meaningful comparison based on these numbers.  Plus the rankings themselves are inherently qualitative, some guy at some desk is given a bunch of information and then has to decide.  Why not provide the reader with the same information and let them decide for themselves?  TastyCakes 04:24, 17 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Beland, the problem is that "non-Western" countries are often not very interested in human rights - or are only interested in as far to cover up for their own failings. I can't think of a country that wouldn't be regarded as "Western" (e.g. many Chinese claim Japan isn't Asian) that publishes reliable reports on human rights abuses. So really there are only "Western" sources that can be used - apart from official Chinese denials. And, really, THE WEST is such a wide-ranging part of the world that it shouldn't matter. It's not like we have the US and then cloned-US countries. Also remember that NGOs that criticise China are just as ready to criticise countries like the US. John Smith&#39;s 16:21, 17 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I recommend that editors tread very carefully on these matters, and attempt to use international sources whenever possible. Amnesty International and UN organisations are the most neutral possible sources. Freedom House unfortunately is not a neutral source. It is solely funded by the US government and US private budgets, all data from that group must be attributed as such. The best way to deal with these issues IMHO is to cite individual sourced breaches of human rights according to international groups. In that way you avoid the pitfalls of seeming Western/US-centric.--Zleitzen 17:55, 18 May 2006 (UTC)


 * According to its article, Freedom House has had up to 35% of its budget supplied by the US government via the National Endowment for Democracy, although it does appear that most of the rest comes from private American sources. It did give America a "declining freedom" rating last year and has been critical of many US allies.  I think it could be mentioned, but if so it should be qualified that it is basically an American NGO.  The only reason I can see including Freedom House as a source over Amnesty is that it focuses on political freedom and democracy over torture and the like.  TastyCakes 18:40, 18 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Here's a quote for you which illustrates my recommendations of caution and clear attribution: "The name Freedom House should at once arouse a certain skepticism among people attuned to the machinations of modern propaganda systems, just as any good student of Orwell should have realized that a change in the name of the U.S. War Department to "Defense Department" in 1947 signalled that henceforth the state would be shifting from defense to aggressive war. In fact, "Freedom House" is no less of an Orwellian construction, as its record indicates."--Zleitzen 08:58, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


 * That's highly ironic, given that you subsequently ask for referencing throughout the article. :) The name is a little cliched, but it's still a valid source, especially for the reason TCakes made. John Smith&#39;s 00:39, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

>>

Let me remind Zleitzen and the others here that the concepts of human rights and all of it's associated ideals of democracy, freedom, rule of law, etc. ARE indeed western-centric! Where do you think these terms originated? Iran? Even the supposedly objective Amnesty International originated in the West (England). In fact, if it weren't for the democracies and freedoms of the West, YOU nor I would have the forum (freedom?) to write here in these pages. Indeed, Wikipedia would NEVER have been created, and your pal George Orwell would have been jailed by the Nazis! I'm am indeed curious: when were you born?

I had a laugh when I read this:

"Does anyone know if there are any other notable systematic human rights rankings, especially ones with a non-Western perspective?"

Yeah, yeah, keep looking! Let me know when you "think" you have found such a thing. I think you will have better luck finding a Persian restaurant along the Amazon River.

Alex (analyst9)

<<

POV tag
Hi all, I've noticed a tug of war with the POV tag. I've had a quick scan after I was alerted via the mediation request, and have spotted a number of problamatic sections and sentences. Including... There are more issues and problems that would need to be ironed out, and too much material is uncited (I recommend extensive footnotes for nearly everything here). Until that situation is resolved it would be wise to keep the POV tag on. --Zleitzen 17:20, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) “when 400-2000 pro-democracy protestors were killed and 7000 to 10000 were injured.” Not all protestors were “pro democracy" etc –some were reportedly agricultural workers from outside Bejing demanding retribution (see John Simpson reports of the episode).
 * 2) “As with other Chinese guarantees of individual liberties in the Constitution, the wording suggests that such liberties are already observed and respected, rather than (such as in the United States Constitution) explicitly prohibiting the government from infringing on such rights.”. This unneccessarily implies that the US constitution (1789) has guaranteed protection of individual liberties.


 * If that's the case, what's the point of the cleanup tag? John Smith&#39;s 00:36, 20 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Point 1 has already been corrected. Point 2 I think is useful, as it actually indicates the difference between the two kinds of document. Otherwise someone may say, "well what's the difference"? I changed it just a tiny bit. John Smith&#39;s 00:57, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Point 2. I don't understand, what is the difference between the two kinds of document? Both constitutions offer guarantees of individual liberties.--Zleitzen 01:17, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * No they don't. The American one says "you must not do this/the person has a right to this". The Chinese one says "we have/will respect rights" - there's no specific PROHIBITION on breaching rights. Anyway if you want clarification, why don't you ask the person that wrote it in, Jiang? John Smith&#39;s 10:30, 20 May 2006 (UTC)


 * re pt. 2: The US Const. Amendment 1 states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." vs PRC Const. Ch II Article 35: "Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of demonstration." The issue is over semantics, not whether these documents are properly applied in real life. Such comparisons are made in Professor Andrew Nathan's book, Chinese Democracy ISBN 0520059336 (also the source of my other recent contributions), which should probably be cited in the article.--Jiang 02:31, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

POV Survey
This is an survey that attempts to resolve the POV tag dispute between John Smith and me. Please sign your name under one of the choices below. Coconut99 99 18:35, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


 * This page confirms to NPOV and should not have the POV tag.
 * John Smith&#39;s 00:33, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * CRGreathouse 15:23, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think this article is perfect - as Zleitzen said it needs more reputable sources and I think most of the comparisons to the US should go (ie the constitution bit). However I don't think the problems are POV (at least not enough to deserve the tag), but rather quality of work.  There is perhaps a western slant in the article, but how are you ever going to eliminate that when the West defines how we judge human rights?  So I'm gonna vote for no tag needed.  TastyCakes 15:34, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * This page has bias and the POV tag is needed.
 * Coconut99 99 18:35, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * (see comments above) --Zleitzen 22:51, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * While the claims made in this article are largely valid, they are not put into the proper context with the Chinese viewpoint in mind. I tried to account for this, but more needs to be done.--Jiang 11:43, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * This article is largely written from the western perspective and what constitute human rights. While the Chinese government POV is addressed, it completely ignored the Chinese culture perspective (ie. that Chinese culture doesn't come with freedom of speech and nor is killing one's child a horrific crime).  I'll name one specific example: the article mentioned that the chinese government think society stability is more important than individual rights.  While it is completely true, it failed to acknowledge that such is the tradition that was passed down for thousands of years and is widely accepted.  By combining it loosely under the government section failed to differentiate what is CCP's propanganda and what is part of the inherent Chinese culture which I think is a major flaw of this article.  So I think the POV tag should be around to address this lack of perspective. --Luqing0604 13:51, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The NPOV of this article is being worked through, however, the page has many failures to WP:NPOV and does require the tag to remain until it has been resolved. I recommend everyone close refamiliarize themselves with Wikipedia and universal standards of NPOV articles before they move to suggest this is an unbiased article. Mkdw 07:41, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * This page has bias. It is okay with or without the POV tag.
 * This page has bias, but the POV tag should not be allowed.

Having looked at the article I spotted only one citation from Amnesty international, and nothing from Human Rights Watch. These are the two most prominent human rights organizations, yet the article cites all manner of sources including the US constitution. As far as I'm concerned there's way too much speculation and potential original research. For example, the "Economic and social improvement" section appears to be entirely original research. Many nuts and bolts need to be tightened, unless this is addressed the article is too vulnerable to charges of bias and will fail. Anything other than a careful, tight article heavily sourced to international Human Rights groups will be attacked as POV due to the sensitive nature of the material. Therefore the tag should stay until these issues have been resolved.--Zleitzen 23:08, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * While I think the article conforms to NPOV, I'd love to see a broader base for comparison. Amnesty and HRW would be a start, if nothing else.  --CRGreathouse 06:13, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Remove protection?
No substantive discussion has been made on the issues in the article for the past two weeks. The page itself has been protected for about two weeks. If there are no objections, I will request unprotection. Calwatch 00:04, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, might as well. John Smith&#39;s 00:07, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Have you read me input further up this long page? Let me repeat it here:

>Let me remind Zleitzen and the others here that the concepts of human rights and >all of it's associated ideals of democracy, freedom, rule of law, etc. ARE indeed >western-centric! Where do you think these terms originated? Iran? Even the >supposedly objective Amnesty International originated in the West (England). In >fact, if it weren't for the democracies and freedoms of the West, YOU nor I would >have the forum (freedom?) to write here in these pages. Indeed, Wikipedia would >NEVER have been created, and your pal George Orwell would have been jailed by the >Nazis! I'm am indeed curious: when were you born? > >I had a laugh when I read this: > >"Does anyone know if there are any other notable systematic human rights rankings, >especially ones with a non-Western perspective?"

>Yeah, yeah, keep looking! Let me know when you "think" you have found such a thing. >I think you will have better luck finding a Persian restaurant along the Amazon >River.

Let me add to this a link of some of the many ngo's that monitor human rights in China: [http://sangle.web.wesleyan.edu/chrr/activst/activist.html ] even more:  

Freedom of expression does NOT exist in China. Both Yahoo, Google, and Microsoft have yielded to PRC demands to create Chinese versions of their web search engines for obvious reasons. And even a Google founder recently admitted that his company compromised it's ideals in dealing with the PRC. Why else does the PRC censors hate the internet? Simply put, they don't respect the FREEDOM OF SPEECH!

I've lived in both China and Taiwan, and continue to follow trends there by reading both Chinese and English websites and publications. PRC propaganda is rather slick (as is typical of communist countries), but I am a 45 y.o. expert on China, and I don't subscribe to the "moral equivalency" argument that some have used here to prop up that corrupt government. Are these same people going to argue that there should be an "American dissidents" page as well? . Not surprisingly the PRC version of wikipedia doesn't have such a listing. I did a look at both the general (uncensored) wikipedia page on Fang Lizhi and compared it with the PRC version.

If we follow the same nonsensical thinking of the PRC defenders who have argued here, we should include a page for "American dissidents" starting with Noam Chomsky. But then the argument runs against a big wall, Chomsky still lives in the U.S. and could never conceivably be expelled from the country (like the Chinese dissidents).

Any country can have a constitution guaranteeing various freedoms for it's citizens and such, but unless the society holds completely to the concept of RULE OF LAW you will envitably end up with the crony capitalism, political corruption, and lack of economic opportunities as found in China, Russia, Mexico, and other typically 3rd- world countries. Their so-called "constitutions" are not worth the paper they're written on! --Analyst9 22:59, 19 June 2006 (UTC) Alex


 * Is this an objection to unprotection or not? Can all sides compromise, at least discuss the issue, or does this need to get to mediation? I will remind you of the irony of this article of all articles being protected, and of the recent press this article had in the New York Times recently. Full unprotection is generally not warranted for more than two weeks, unless progress is made toward resolution that unprotection would unravel. Calwatch 01:40, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with John, the original entry for Chinese Human rights should remain protected lest some die-hard pro-PRC types alter the contents and play down the real situation in mainland China. Beside the Tibetans, Falun Gong, Christian churches, etc that are mentioned in the original article as persecuted groups, why not also include the predominately Muslim group, the Uyghurs? This helps balance things out in that it shows a wider specter of human rights abuses (and sadly doesn't get any play in the media anywhere)   

--Analyst9 18:40, 20 June 2006 (UTC) Alex
 * Well, I think differently. You guys only look at the down side of PRC.  For example, the page makes it sound like China as an oppressed society for women and minorities.  But if you look at the hard facts, which are missing from this page, 20% of national congress are female, 14.7% representatives are ethnic minorities while their population is only 7% of total .  Buddhism is very much protected (well, many kids want to be Shaolin monks :)  As for foreign religion influences, Pope John Paul II made rapists saints and maintained diplomatic ties with Taiwan.  It is no wonder why Chinese government do not want Chinese catholics have anything to do with Rome. Is this page NPOV? I think not. Coconut99 99 08:07, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * About the Vatican. The whole reason they have relations with Taiwan is because they allow them to work with Catholics and China does not. The Vatican spent many months trying to negotiate with China, saying that it would change diplomatic relations if the CCP agreed to drop its position to keep control of the Church in China. Then China kept appointing bishops while the discussions were on, breaking the goodwill. The Vatican still wants to talk, but China refuses to stop doing things like appointing bishops. It also still refuses to release Vatican-approved bishops and priests that it has under arrest (they haven't committed a crime other than not swearing loyalty to the Patriotic Church).
 * "Rapist saints"? I think that's a bit of a rumour. Plus there are many old Chinese leaders that did bad things in their past that the CCP still honours.
 * Also although there are some women in the Congress, that isn't so important because there is not so much power there. In the top levels of government, like the Politburo, there are hardly any women at all. Can you imagine a woman President (or even Prime Minister) of China in the near future? My Chinese friends laughed when I asked them that question. :( John Smith&#39;s 21:56, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * John Smith, saying "your chinese friend" is a very vague term indeed. I'll give some examples that woman are well treated in China: 1. If you go to cities like Beijing and Tianjin, when a women with a China step onto the bus, she is usually given a seat by someone even though the bus is completely crowded.  In fact, not giving them seats are considered a big taboo.  However, you do not see similar things in New York City (only US city I have lived in with its bus constantly crowded).  2. The CCP has a woman's right committee and it is located down to the most local level in the big cities.  This is a committee that is usually headed by a senior woman in the neighborhood and any woman who felt they are mistreated in their family go just walk there in ten minutes and seek out counsel or government action.  Now I ask you, how long does it take for a women to get abused by her husband to seek similiar justifications?  3. China celebrates International Women Day (March 8th) and from what my cousins told me, women get a day off from work and the government encourage the husbands to cook and help with house work for that day.  I don't see the similar type of national gesture in US.  All these examples are from first hand observation when I go back to China and visits my family.  Political-wise I agree you won't see a woman in charge soon however this is more due to chinese culture than communism oppressant.  In fact, Jiang Qing (wife of Mao Zedong) is one of the most left politicians ever and after she was tried for treason just little over 20 years ago, chinese people aren't inclined to give power to women in anytime soon.  Let's not forget, it took women 150 years to get suffrage privilege in US and given PRC was founded less than 60 years ago, I consider their accomplishments pretty decent.
 * I am regularly told that China has 5,000 years of history by Chinese people. If you consider that, any such "achievement" isn't that great. Besides it isn't as if everything was in stone before 1949 - the Republic of China made things better as well. John Smith&#39;s 15:37, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Overally, I think this article is rather biased. If it is written from a western perspective because that's how the term "human right" came from, then it should be stated as so somewhere. Eastern cultures value society much more than individuals and as a result, individual rights are often sacrificed to maintain a stable society. (Ironically, that's exactly what we did by agreeing to the Patriot Act). While Falun Gong was mentioned in the article as an example of a violation of religious freedom, it failed to mention numerous religions were not persecuted and numerous temples were destined protected by the government (Yong He Gong, a Tibetian Buddhist temple in Beijing, is an extremely popular tourist place). While the article mentioned the One-child policy leading to forced abortion, it failed to mention that in chinese culture, fetus aren't considered lives and just barely a hundred years ago, parents can kill their children and they are not breaking any law (in fact, it is the son's obligation to die when his father orders him to). While the article mentioned cited the example of capital punishment, it failed to acknowledge that execution for heavy crimes (esp. murdering) had being the basis of chinese law over 2000 years ago and its impact won't be removed in a day. The article cited about prisoner torture (while I completely agree it does take place), comes from a Falun Gong supporter, which I don't think many would consider to be the most objective source. Are those traditions dying away and replacec by westernized values? absolutely. Would the change be effective tomorrow? of course not. Given we are in english wiki I assume that the sources are going to be somewhat biased, however, what I cannot stand is that people claiming themselves to be objective while completely fails to see the other side. I am not saying there are no human right problems in China. In fact, I believe the problem do exist and needs to be resolved. However, this article has definitely taken on a western perspective and failure to acknowledge that that does a POV bias.

To Analyst: you may be a 45 year old expert in this area, but I find your comments rather unfit for your age. You claim w/o the western ideas of freedom wiki would never being created and hence it is justified to use wiki to promote western thoughts. It is like saying w/o the help of France US would never won the independence war and the country would never existed, hence France can use US as a tool against the Britain. Perhaps you think this way but our founding father obviously disagrees. Wiki is founded as an independent source, not a source for western propoganda (sometimes they are equally as slick as the communist ones) and hence all biases should be addressed. You are absolutely right in saying China does NOT have freedom of speech, so as a result we should degrade ourselves into censoring materials as well and be like them? The whole point that set US apart from China is that we have those individual rights and freedoms and the ability to make the english wiki as objective as possible. If you argue the chinese wiki is a propanganda tool and hence the english one should be used to counter that, then you just made yourself stand on the same level of the government you criticized. I find it is rather unsettling that you claimed PRC is the only government that has propogandas. You seriously think our government don't do the same (they just don't control the media as well). You claim you lived in Taiwan so you think everything Lee Ting-hui and Chen Shui-bian said are the truth? So while I am not challenging your claim as a China expert, I do find you to be a rather biased expert. Sorry if I offended you in anyway but all of us have a inherent bias coming with us and sometimes it is just better to acknowledge such bias exist rather than trying to act as the objective third party. If we claim the human right article are from western perspective, then I suggest adding one line to the article "However the concept of human right is an idea that originated from the west and may or may not be compatible with certain aspect of Chinese cultures." This would state the POV of the article clearly and address most of the bias issues.

One more thing about the article (btw, I didn't make any changes because I think it would just cause too much contraversy), I find it exceeding funny how in the very first paragraph the Great Leap Forward was quoted as something against human right given it was more than 40 years ago and was widely acknowledged (by both the CCP and chinese people) as completely failure a wrong thing to do. It is like quoting Jim Crew laws and the KKK as evidence against US human rights. Tiananmen Square I can understand because the government never said it was wrong and it could even be expanded into a full section given its large consequences.

Lasty, before any of you label me as a communist or brain-washed by the communist agenda. I was born in China but I immigrated to US at age 9 so I definitely spend much more time under western media (currently 21). I do read chinese newspapers but only ones from HK (Qingdao Daily) and Taiwan (World Daily). I agree the CCP is horrible with human rights (most of the points in the article are valid but they just failed to address the other side). --Luqing0604 15:03, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * If you look at other human rights articles, they include discussions of past human rights violations. Possibly the Great Leap Forward shouldn't belong in the first paragraph, but it does belong in the article. Could someone who knows more about it add it, possibly to the economic rights sections?1337n00blar 17:38, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I have come across American-born Chinese that are rampant Chinese nationalists and staunch defenders of the CCP in virtually all respects (which is pretty creepy). I am not saying you are brainwashed at all, but to say you moved abroad doesn't really mean that much. I have friends born-and-raised in China that couldn't give a fig about "the other side", as it were.
 * Besides, having looked at other similar pages, I don't see any/much discussion of the "other side" either. They generally focus on problems with human rights. For example, no one could say human rights in the UK were worse than in China. Yet there is little on the corresponding wiki page about how the UK is generally very good.
 * I think you're being overly sensitive. John Smith&#39;s 15:37, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Of course, if you want to make some proposals, please do so. Just make sure to start a new section on the talk page AND PLEASE use paragraphs, bullet points, italic and 'bold text, etc to make it easier to read. John Smith&#39;s 15:45, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I am not saying moving abroad necessarily changes one's political opinions. My point is I do have access to western medias and do look into both sides as well so it is to prove to you I am NOT brainwashed.  That's all I mean, and nothing beyond that.  Also, perhaps your chinese friends thinks differently, but moving from a dictatorship (that's exactly how I think of CCP) to a democracy did influence a lot of my political thoughts and is able to let me both be appreciative and critical of the different political systems.  While I agree there are exceptions to every case, but to say a person undergoing such a huge shift in geo-political environment has no effect is definitely taking it to the extreme.


 * I agree completely that UK has far better human rights than PRC. However, this is a line I saw on the US Human Right page: "Given that the modern concept of human rights developed primarily out of 20th century liberal Western thought, assessments of the United States human rights record often tend to measure its conformity to that political model."  I don't know if a similar line is included in the UK page but all I do is suggesting something similar to added to this page as well to make it clear to people who first visit this page on what basis are the views originated from.  Again, I emphasize that human right is a western concept and hence embedded in the culture of both UK and US, while it is not necessarily so in the Eastern cultures so I am not only suggesting such a thing to this page, but to most of the Asian countries because what is considered abuse there is quite different from here.  If wiki is meant to be as objective as possible (absolute objectivity is the unreachable goal, I think it is naive to believe anybody is completely objective), then I don't how adding extra clarifications of perspectives and basis of analysis is hindering this goal.  Lastly, I single out China because human right is China is a hotly debated global issue and an extremely contraversial one (unlike human right status in UK and US) so it is far more important for the authors of those pages to try to maintain an objective and present both part of the stories for people who read this page to make their own conclusions since there is no widely accepted conclusion at this point in time.


 * I might be overly sensitive which is why I refrained from editing the pages myself and instead just offering suggesting on the talk page. Also, last post was my first time posting at wiki so I am still trying to get use to the formats. Luqing0604 18:28, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The US page sounds a bit strange. There's no such discussion on the UK page last time I looked.
 * But what would you say? That standards of human rights in China are "different" somehow? John Smith&#39;s 20:30, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Capital Punishment
A couple of things. This sentence: "Amnesty International claims that official figures are much smaller that the real number, stating that in China the statistics are considered State secrets. Amnesty stated that according to various reports, in 2005 3,400 people were executed. In March of that year, a senior member of the National People’s Congress announced that China executes around 10,000 people per year." is full of self-contradictions. Firstly, AI claims execution figures are "state secrets", so how the hell did they get these "various reports" and then use them as facts? Their claim that China executes 10,000 people per year can't be independently verified either; I can't find any primary source to this information (other than AI). Second, is it considered a human rights abuse to have white-collar crimes punishable by death? Mind you, one of the things the government is doing to curb corruption is to impose severe punishments for scumbag officials caught indulging in serious white collar crimes. Just my two cents.--Lssah 88 20:41, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi. What happened, I believe from their arguments, are two things. First they used reports of executions (maybe from the media) to get the 3,400 figure. The 10,000 figure isn't easily verifiable, though if you e-mail them they might have the name of the NPC official. There was a quote in an earlier version of this page, which mentioned an academic who said it was 8,000. He then corrected himself later on because he realised he'd said something too controversial, or so the story went.
 * As to white collar crimes. I think the point is that even in some countries that still have the death penalty, they're concerned that China uses it for too many cases. They might think that you should keep it for things like multiple murder, but in a white collar crime where the loss is money, not life, they would consider a lengthy jail sentence more appropriate. This page says that other countries are concerned - it doesn't say that it is a human rights abuse to have the penalty for white-collar crime. John Smith&#39;s 20:52, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I think that a better reference should be http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGASA170032004, where AI gave its source, or else it did sound made up. In some places though, AI quoted FLG sources, which are full of made up stories. FLG is well known for fabricating news among Chinese. xys.org, an NGO in Canda, has ridiculed FLG and its fabrication of news long before PRC crack down of FLG. AI is not credible until it get rid of FLG sources.
 * The bottom line is that AI should verify its source before it can be a reliable source. The fact that it did not weakens its case.  Otherwise, I felt that Wikipedia would become Chinese whisper (no puns intended) as we quoting the quote, or become an agent for spreading rumor. 71.106.187.3 01:11, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
 * What do you mean "verify its source"? How can you be sure any information provided has come from an agency or organisation that has "verified its source"? I think you're taking exception to the fact it mentions the FLG. Some people here may think any source that quotes the CCP isn't reliable as they often make up stories to discredit innocent people. You don't see me removing any sources quoting the CCP/Chinese government. Wikipedia isn't here to say who is right or wrong. John Smith&#39;s 11:30, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
 * 'is it considered a human rights abuse to have white-collar crimes punishable by death?'

Since Amnesty regard all use of the death penalty as a human rights abuse, then, selon lui, it is.

Need to standardize on reference format
There was heavy use of footnotes in Capital punishment section. It breaks away from formats in the other sections. I think that it is necessary to either convert all links to footnote format or convert all footnotes to external links. Coconut99 99 19:59, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

As a university student and English TA, most of the citations of used in the article would be immediately rejected and the article failed. I strongly recommend a standard be introduced and followed. Wikipedia and I both recommend the use of the MLA Style Manual. Mkdw 07:52, 27 October 2006 (UTC) 

"Plagiarism." Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. 19 Oct. 2006, 22.59 UTC. Wikimedia Foundation. 20 Oct. 2006 .
 * A website: Author of webpage. "Article Title." Title of webpage. Date of publication (or last modified date). Institution associated with (if not cited earlier). Date of retrieval . (Note: It is preferrable when citing Wikipedia, to link directly to the page you used.)

citation needed in introduction
So many statement in this section can be called original research and pov. I added citation tags. --Chinatravel 22:18, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

The following statement apears to be exaggerated “Past human rights issues include the the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989, when 400-2000 protestors were killed and 7000 to 10000 were injured.” The Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 page here states “The toll ranges from 200–300 (PRC government figures), to 2,000–3,000 (Chinese student associations and Chinese Red Cross).”  Even these number are questionable since they are not mentioned in the cited source.

I don’t think these numbers need to be provided in the introduction, your thoughts? --Chinatravel 08:46, 27 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I think they do, so I added the numbers from the T Square page. John Smith&#39;s 09:32, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Copy of reference on organ harvesting
I am looking for a copy of the following reference cited in the article, so that I can read it for myself:

"United Nations: Report of the Special Rapporteur on torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. Manfred Nowak, 20 March 2007."

I found links on two United Nations websites, but both of them yielded a "404 File not found" error message when I clicked on them. If anyone knows how I can legitimately get hold of this document quickly, please let me know.—greenrd 13:27, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Perspective of the PRC government
The first paragraph of this section is just too strange. I suggest that it be deleted as I dont see how it could be reshaped into anything sensible and reasonably reality-connected. The part about positive/negative rights is interesting though. LarsHolmberg 13:56, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Integration of material
Please do not delete well researched and meticulously sourced material. If you have concerns about specific material, please raise these concerns here. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:12, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Discussion
I invite to discuss his issues with my edits instead of reverting them all. --Ideogram 17:13, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I would ask the same: You deleted excellent material without giving reasons. I have re-added the material as it is well written, and meticulously sourced. See the closing comment by the admin on the AfD about the deleted article that previously hosted that content. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:16, 7 August 2007 (UTC)


 * All reasons were given in the comments. Most of the material was not deleted but moved to other articles, as noted in the comments.  The specific material I deleted was (1) the material about the tourist industry in Tibet, which is not about human rights (2) the material about China's policy towards Taiwan, which is not about human rights IN the PRC.  A lot of the material was repeated, stated in the text, stated in the notes, stated on the referenced site.  References to the same material appeared in the Notes and the References section.  Repeated quoting of the term "apartheid" is not relevant to the subject of this article.  Please answer these objections.  --Ideogram 17:23, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

The material is not organized or integrated into the article. We already have a paragraph about Tibet in the article; information about "Treatment of Tibetans" logically should be merged there. "Treatment of foreigners" is not an appropriate top-level heading for this article, and the subsection about Taiwanese is, as noted above, all about relations with Taiwan and not internal human rights anyway. Since there is only one remaining paragraph about the African students, it is logically merged with "Other human rights issues". --Ideogram 17:30, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

As noted in the comments, be sure to read Chinese settlements in Tibet and Chinese treatment of Tibetans for the moved material. --Ideogram 17:34, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

The same statement by the Dalai Lama was quoted twice in succession from two different sources.

It is not cooperative editing to blanket revert my changes and force me to justify all edits to you. You do not OWN this article. --Ideogram 17:37, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

The report by the Heritage Foundation does not in any way "discuss" the "reasons for the use of the term". It simply describes the PRC's treatment of Tibetans and notes that it "has been termed Chinese apartheid." You will find this quote, in full, in the Chinese treatment of Tibetans article. --Ideogram 17:40, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

There is a great deal of editorializing in the "Treatment of Africans" subsection. The text "For decades African students in China have been treated with hostility and prejudice. Their complaints regarding their treatment were largely ignored ..." is POV and not sourced. The text "African officials, who had until then ignored the problem, took notice of the issue" is POV and redundant. Indicating the title of the Guardian report is not necessary; it is mentioned in the ref. --Ideogram 17:43, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

"Treatment of African students" is not large enough or important enough to deserve its own subsection. It should be merged in with the rest of "Other human rights issues". --Ideogram 17:45, 7 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Addressed your concerns in my last round of edits
 * The new article that you just created: Chinese treatment of Tibetans, is a POV fork and will need to be redirected here. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:46, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

'''There is no difference in POV between the new article and this one. Explain how it can be a POVFORK. --Ideogram 17:48, 7 August 2007 (UTC)''' you have not addressed this


 * 1) The text continues to emphasize the usage of the term "apartheid" as if it were the subject of this article, which it is not. --Ideogram 17:49, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) You have not removed the information about the tourist industry, which, as noted above, has nothing to do with human rights. --Ideogram 17:50, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 3) There are two sentences about different subjects jammed together, the statement about Tibetan culture being a threat to China, and the statement of the Tibet Society of the UK. The only thing in common about these two sentences is the use of the word "apartheid". In general, the pasted material goes out of its way to highlight the usage of the word "apartheid" whenever possible, even though most of the time it is not relevant to the point being made in the quote.  In my version I pruned this material so that the point of the quote was communicated in more streamlined fashion.  --Ideogram 17:53, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 4) The subsection title "Complaints of 'Chinese apartheid' toward Tibetans" is awkward, undue weight, and invented to match the pasted material. The Chinese treatment of Tibetans is an entire subject in and of itself and is logically titled simply "Tibet".  --Ideogram 17:55, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

(I took the liberty to number your points for easier reference) ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:59, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) The usage of the term "apartheid" is based on the content. Read it.
 * 2) I have removed info about the tourist industry
 * 3) We can work on making that section more consistent.
 * 4) Not invented. It is based on the content and the sources

It makes no sense to fit the structure of the article to the sources provided. The subject itself has a natural structure which, although perhaps not best laid out here, is being distorted by the fact that you have collected a large amount of sources using the word "apartheid". This article is not about apartheid specifically, nor is the Chinese treatment of Tibetans only about the apartheid analogy. There is a great deal more about the Chinese treatment of Tibetans that has been said, and can be said, outside of the apartheid analogy. You need to structure the article around that fact so that it can grow appropriately. --Ideogram 18:02, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

You still have the material citing the same quote from the Dalai Lama twice, first "in 1991" and second "In a selection of speeches ... published ... in 1998". --Ideogram 17:56, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I do not think it is the same quote. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:59, 7 August 2007 (UTC)


 * "denying Tibetans equal social and economic status", "denies Tibetans with equal social and economic status", this is repetitive. --Ideogram 18:04, 7 August 2007 (UTC) you have not addressed this

Your text asserts that the African students' problem was "ignored" twice. --Ideogram 17:59, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

'''The treatment of Tibetans is an important subject in its own right and should not be placed under "Ethnic minorities" no matter what the title. --Ideogram 18:06, 7 August 2007 (UTC)''' you have not addressed this

'''You still have identical sources listed multiple times under Notes and References, and in one case a third time as an external link. This is not necessary. --Ideogram 18:07, 7 August 2007 (UTC)''' you have not addressed this

A lot of the prose flows very poorly. Are you really going to make me justify every single edit to you? --Ideogram 18:09, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Articles are a work in progress. Copyediting for god flow can be accomplished once we have the basic text in place and in a stable form. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:07, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

This is a perfect example of how the editorial text changes the subject of the quoted material: "In 1991 the Dalai Lama alleged that Chinese settlers in Tibet were creating "Chinese Apartheid":"  The quote itself is about the "Chinese settlers" and "an alternate society". It is only the text that has been written to introduce the quote that claims the quote is specifically about "Chinese Apartheid" and thus leads to your claim that the title of the section is "based on the content". --Ideogram 18:12, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I read the cited sources and seems perfectly accurate to me. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:07, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Repeat: It is not necessary for the sentence to tell the reader what the Dalai Lama alleged, the quote speaks for itself.  The introductory text is pure propaganda.  --Ideogram 05:32, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

It is absolutely not necessary to use the word "apartheid" outside of the quoted material. Ever. The quotes speak for themselves, it is not the job of the surrounding text to tell the reader what the quotes say. If the quotes use the word "apartheid" incidentally, certainly it should be included. Juxtaposing quotes from different parts of the source material, one of which contains the word "apartheid", and one of which actually discusses the subject of the quote, is unacceptable. --Ideogram 18:14, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but I do not follow. We need to summarize material, right? How can we summarize an claim of apartheid without using that word. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:07, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I am speaking of material that summarizes a quote immediately before presenting the quote. This way the text gets to mention the word "apartheid" twice.  It is completely redundant.  --Ideogram 05:32, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * What are you saying? There are many ways to skin a cat, and that is the way I have chosen to edit that portion. Others may improve my copyediting if neeed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:49, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

The African students material still states the title of the Guardian report, which is redundant since it is available in the ref, and repeats the statement that the students called it "Chinese apartheid". This is the exact same fact cited twice from two different sources. --Ideogram 18:17, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The title is important in my view. In any case, I have copyedited that paragraph, let me know wht you think. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:07, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * No, if the title didn't contain the word "apartheid" you would not think it was important. As it is, "Chinese apartheid" is already the subject of the paragraph, mentioned in the first sentence, so repeating the title of the report is redundant.  --Ideogram 05:32, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I do not think that that is a reasonable request. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:49, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

You still have the text saying the Heritage Foundation "discussed some of the reasons for the use of this term" there are no reasons for the use of the term Apartheid given, there is simply a list of statements about Chinese treatment of Tibetans with the incidental note that it has been termed "Chinese apartheid". Again, it is not the job of the sentence introducing the quote to tell us what the quote says, an introductory phrase of "According to the Heritage Foundation" is sufficient. --Ideogram 18:20, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Please go ahead and work on that paragraph. (Don;t worry, it will not be considered a revert). ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:07, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Fixed. --Ideogram 05:37, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

"African students in China have complained about their treatment in China, that was largely ignored" there is no source given for this text, and it is redundant anyway since the actual sourced statement "students rose up in protest against what they called 'Chinese apartheid'" implies complaint. --Ideogram 18:22, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That is fixed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:07, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * No, that is clearly still in the text. --Ideogram 05:32, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I copyedited the paragraph to the best of my ability. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:49, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

"African officials took notice of the issue, and the Organization of African Unity issued an official protest." The fact that African officials took notice of the issue is implied by the rest of the sentence and is redundant. --Ideogram 18:23, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That is fixed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:07, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * No, that is clearly still in the text. --Ideogram 05:32, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I copyedited the paragraph to the best of my ability. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:49, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

"The issue was so severe that ..." This is editorializing, quoting the Guardian report directly is sufficient. --Ideogram 18:24, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That is fixed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:07, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

You still have the fact that the students called it "Chinese apartheid" stated twice, just because it comes from two different sources. --Ideogram 18:25, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That is fixed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:07, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

This really would have been a lot easier if you had just left the text the way I wrote it and asked me specific questions. Now apparently you have left and I am afraid to edit it since you will probably just revert all my changes when you get back. --Ideogram 18:27, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, but it is absolutely not necessary to mention the title of the report in the text. --Ideogram 02:01, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Why not? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:49, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Jossi, it is not worth my time to continue fighting with you. There is only so much I am willing to do for the good of Wikipedia. --Ideogram 01:30, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I am not "fighting" with you, Ideogram. Have you ever heard of collaborative editing? It is hard work, requires patience, but the results are worthy of the effort. Rather than be upset, start improving the article by sourcing the many unsourced OR that exist, as tagged. See below. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:51, 9 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I am truly sorry, but I have other priorities. --Ideogram 06:40, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Merge proposal
This article is already too long, more material should be split out into child articles rather than merging material back into the parent. --Ideogram 17:47, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Not at all, Ideogram. The article is only 62K long including all footnotes. There is still place for a bit more. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:55, 7 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Disagree : there are already a great number of sister articles. The corpse is not yet dead, and the edit-warring has started! What I do object to is the high number of POV edits, especially as the "allegations of apartheid" article has been lazily pasted in without properly working it into the article in a sensible way. The 'apartheid' article was deleted for being in breach of WP:SYN. The C&P did not resolve it. Most of the content belongs in the hukou article, and that's where I carefully merged it. I will work to improve the article globally. Ohconfucius 01:39, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * reading your comments again, I may have misunderstood you. Ohconfucius 02:07, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The material related to Houkou, can be moved there but needs a good summary here as per Content Forking. There is no reason for wholesale deletion of well written and sourced material that does not exist in any other article and that is relevant to this subject. If you have concerns about duplicated material, please point out which content is that so that it can be pruned. The WP:SYN argument was related to an article called allegations of Chinese apartheid, and not the content, which is meticulously sourced and highly relevant viewpoints. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:40, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment respectfully disagree. The breach of WP:SYS needs to be dealt with and not just C&P. The article alst violated WP:PSTS, and thus the heavy reliance on the number of primary sources must be kep to a minimum. There was already quite a bit of good stuff in the BBC and Independent articles, from which I was able to source much the same facts as the primary sources without point-pushing about "apartheid" by referencing that word with n different citations. Ohconfucius 02:00, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Jossi, would you mind taking the time to address the concerns I have already stated? --Ideogram 01:46, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I already did. Did I miss anything? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:55, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I believe your last edit was at 18:05. I see twelve posts by me since then.  --Ideogram 01:57, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Disputed tags
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:55, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Can someone explain why there is a tag for original research, when all the material that has been added is verifiable, well written, and available from published secondary sources.
 * I would also want to know what exactly is not written in accordance to WP:NPOV
 * Please refer to my comments above, as well as the discussion here Ohconfucius 02:00, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * And one more thing which was not resolved with a wholescale C&P: is copyright. Please do take the time, as I did, to read the footnotes from the 'apartheid' article. Many have been directly lazily and unashamedly copied word for word from said footnotes to the article itself. I have addressed this problem with my rewrite in hukou. Ohconfucius 02:17, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That can be easily fixed, and there is no need to cast aspersions such as "lazy" and "unashamedly". I am sure we all can put our good copyedit skills to fix these paragraphs. (BTW, I did not write any of that text. The text I wrote is not word by word, so if you can point out which paragraphs needs rewriting, that could help). ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:57, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * creators of the 'Apartheid' article were responsible for the plagiarism. You replaced same text wholescale after I had deleted and replaced it (ie half reverting my edit). Maybe you have not yet had time to go through the pasted line by line to see if it fits (in content and style) or if it contains copyvio text. Let's do that together. I believe that the radical cleanup is the best cleanup, but I am prepared to go more slowly than I usually do - I don't want to be caught in edit conflicts nor violent reversions of my edits. Ohconfucius 07:33, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sure. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:39, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Bottleneck
You are slowing us down tremendously by forcing us to justify every single edit through you. Are you planning on using this same system for merging all the other Allegations articles? --Ideogram 02:10, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Who is "us", exactly? Please speak for yourself and yourself alone, if you could. And if the process of collaborative editing is too slow for you, you can come back in a month or two and take a look at the results of that process then. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:09, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * That would be Ohconfucius and me, since you also blanket reverted him. --Ideogram 05:34, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, of course ≈ jossi ≈ does have a right to edit. I would point out that just because sources exist for a piece of information does not mean it should dominate the article, like the "allegations" of apartheid appear to be doing since someone dumped the content from the deleted article. Collaboratively is best, but there does not seem to be very much wholehearted collaboration at the moment, with tugs-of-war push-pull yes-I-am/no-you're-not editing. It may be an overspill of tension from the deletion and DRV debate, but I feel we all need to chill out a little more. ;-) Ohconfucius 07:38, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * It all comes down to having a well-written article. I think that there is enough material to write an article that reflects the published viewpoints on this subject. The material we have dictates what we write, taking into account WP:NPOV when reporting on minority viewpoints. It is doable.≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:41, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Rewrite proposal
Well, we certainly have much too much here in 'Freedom of movement', the whole section having been taken over and drowned by the 'apartheid article'. I feel that we ought not to keep the subsection on treatment of rural workers and its sub-section Apartheid "pass system" in treatment of migrant workers as separate. In fact, I would argue that the whole 'treatment of rural workers' is completely indissociable from freedom of movement (of which hukou is the main control mechanism), and its effect on the population is but a direct consequence of this policy vs the geographical distribution of income in the country. The part which alleges discrimination of women is backed only by one primary source (from what I can tell), and I do not feel it is so important that it deserves more than one line - it is instead of a whole paragraph on spatial apartheid.

As the article is so voluminous and there is so much detail to be worked in, I feel that the best way to avoid a content fork is to start from the daughter articles. I propose that we left off this article for now, bring the necessary improvements to hukou, create a concise and intelligent summary which can be C&P here as I had attempted to do. Ohconfucius 08:42, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Sure. Improving hukou first and   writing a good summary later on to be featured is one way if doing it. I am not opposed to that approach, as long as no material is lost and that the content is reflective of what the sources say. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:38, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Original research / Unsourced
We need sources for this material:

≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:02, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

and this:

also the entire text of the "Economic and social improvement" section, and many other paragraphs that have been tagged fact. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:20, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Unless sources for all the material lacking such is forthcoming, that material will be deleted in a couple of days. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:54, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Some additional sources worth exploring
These are some additional sources worth exploring to augment the quality of this article:


 * Human Rights and Asian Values: Contesting National Identities and Cultural Representations in Asia, Ole Bruun, Michael Jacobsen; Curzon, 2000. In particular Chapter 10 by Marina Svensson: The Chinese Debate on Asian Values and Human Rights: Some Reflections on Relativism, Nationalism and Orientalism


 * China and the World: Chinese Foreign Policy Faces the New Millennium, Samuel S. Kim; Westview Press, 1984. It includes multiple references to Sino-US relations as iot pertains to human rights issues. Of particular interest is chapter 10, by James Seynour: Human Rights in Chinese Foreign Relations

≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:29, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Verification of citation
The article makes reference to a United Nations: Report of the Special Rapporteur on torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment written by Manfred Nowak, 20 March 2007. The paragraph in the wiki article which cites the allegation is written in a manner which is potentially misleading, as it could be construed that Nowak drew that conclusion whereas in fact he merely passed on these allegations. The quote comes from paragraph 40 of this tabular document which lists allegations (without specifying the source) against which the government's reply is noted. I would not be surprised if Nowak had merely picked up FG's allegations and asked the government to address them. I do not believe this article is the place to include the PRC Govt's response verbatim as per the allegations cited. To maintain proper balance, the paragraph should be removed so as not to mislead. Ohconfucius 08:53, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Is this what you meant by smoke and mirrors? If there is some confusion, or it is unclear in what way the content is presented in the report, then that should be clarified. In general I think the reference is relevant and shouldn't be deleted... A few words before could clear things up, like in what context those words appear in the report, and that kind of thing. That the report contained this alongside all the others is relevant... AGF! --Asdfg12345 15:07, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh I see what you are saying... the report/response could both be presented fairly quickly here, couldn't they? It's significant in any case that Nowak raised the issue, so I guess that was just my main point. It should also be mentioned that the govt refuted it, of course.--Asdfg12345 15:10, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, this could count as an example of smoke and mirrors, but so far no idea if FGNY put it there - I had only ever really accused FGNY of that, and not the ordinary practitioner. In any event, from how the paragraph reads, Nowak made 341 counts of alleged torture of FG practitioners and organ harvesting from same. The whole section and the Nowak paragraph is from FG and is highly misleading. Although it mentions the UN report as a source, that alone is probably not sufficient to set the correct context - are you seriously suggesting and the Govt refutation just gets a "but the Government has denied this"? Ohconfucius 02:54, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, no I didn't mean that it should only say "but the Government has denied this." It should say whatever the ccp said. As far as I know they havn't responded to the substance of the kilgour-matas report at all, or any of the evidence presented in it. This might mean that their response is limited. I don't mean that whatever is written there should not reflect the stance of the ccp. It should just say what they said, right? That's all I meant.--Asdfg12345 12:41, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

presumed overpopulation problem
The section on the One Child Policy says, "presumed overpopulation problem". Does anyone really believe the problem is just "presumed" and not a real problem? If China was to consume as much resources per capita as United States it would take another entire Earth to supply the resources. You may dislike the Policy but to claim that there isn't a problem is illogical. Fanra 03:59, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
 * You could change it to say "overpopulation problem" if you add a citation. But I agree that there is an overpopulation problem in some parts of China. John Smith&#39;s 08:04, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Removed "presumed" and added citation. -- Fanra (talk) 20:08, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Labor activist attacked in Shenzhen
Article. Badagnani (talk) 05:39, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

sgfgdsf
I just want to say that, seems a lot of people are upset by the point of view of this article, but I say that its entirely fair, considering everything in the article is by definition negative, and wrong, and that making it fairer and putting it into a better light would be wrong. Sure there are wikipedia guidelines.. but dont morality and ethics come first? We're humans before wikipedians, and I think this article is as fair as it should ever be, if not too fair. --Someone who needs to make an account —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.106.105.113 (talk) 06:49, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I disagree that we should be human first before wikipedians. We are here to help create a resource, using predefined rules. Morality and Ethics come into play when creating the rules. From there, we follow those rules. If one disagrees with the given rules, one must campaign to either change the rules properly, or leave the editing to those who are willing to edit in a way consistent with the current rules. --Someone who enjoys the semi-anonymity that comes with not signing in 74.67.17.22 (talk) 05:38, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

China Human Rights
Could somebody check who funds this site: http://www.chinahumanrights.org/ China Human Rights, because it pretty much looks like propaganda from the CCP. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 21:14, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I can't find anything specific, but I remember it being said the website was run by a government agency. As you say it's a propaganda website only. John Smith&#39;s (talk) 23:02, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Coconut's edits
I have reverted his edits because he removed important detail and replaced it with a generalisation. It isn't as simple to say that just "separatists" are treated harshly, because some people just want more political rights. In reality neither Tibet nor Xinjiang have political autonomy, as decisions are still made by Beijing's appointed representative. Even though they have official autonomous status there is clearly a demand for real autonomy that would put the power back in the hands of the people that live there - that was the point that the previous version made. John Smith&#39;s (talk) 19:46, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Please backup your statements. Both Xinjiang and Tibet governors and lower ranks are ethnics. Coconut99 99 (talk) 16:24, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

For some reason you are trying to turn this page into an indictment of the Dalai Lama and other so-called "separatists". That's not what this is about. It's ok to mention terrorism, if you can give a good cite to a terrorist incident, which you haven't, but it's not ok to run on and on about serfdom and the CIA. The place for that, assuming you don't violate WP:SOAP, is History of Tibet. Also, you should be more careful about the quality of your English, and refrain from using loaded terms like "feudal". This isn't a PRC middle school textbook and we should use descriptive, rather than critical, terminology. Alexwoods (talk) 17:21, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * No. I was merely trying to show that Dalai Lama was a hypocrite.  His claim of Human rights were complete B.S. given the fact that he was slave master.  His motives of using human rights were separatists and he was used by CIA and Nazis. Coconut99 99 (talk) 17:26, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Exactly. You are using this article as a soapbox to promote your own views.  Your edits are not going to stand.  Alexwoods (talk) 17:34, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * No, this page was full of Tibetan Exile and Dalai Lama's views and contains NO FACTS. That itself is PV.  It is important to give background of these people. 17:38, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I spent a lot of work cleaning up this article this morning and it's not ok to rv all my work because you want to prove that the Dalai Lama is "hypocrite". Alexwoods (talk) 17:23, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I spent a lot of work finding the facts. Stop blanking them.  I didn't rv your other edits, but rv your blanking of my contributions. Coconut99 99 (talk) 17:26, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * BTW, although I think Tibetan exiles' words are not trust worthy and contains absolutely NO facts, I didn't blank them out. Quoting someone's statement and use it as attack itself is POV.  It is rather important to give background (such as source of funding etc) before we can judge the neutrality of the statements.  You should know that. Coconut99 99 (talk) 17:34, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Coconut, your additions are not fact - they are allegations. With such controversial information it cannot be asserted as fact, nor made without consensus. Saying that he is/was CIA-funded and had links to the Nazis is so deeply discriminatory and POV that you cannot insert it as you please. One might as well add text supported by pro-Tibetan sources that the sun shines out of his backside and he is a Buddhist Jesus - or whatever. We need balance and neutrality, not trying to slag one party off. Furthermore your picture is not properly sourced or verifiable. Thus I have reverted your change.
 * Also, Alex has explained why he has undone your changes. That is not vandalism, it is a content dispute. John Smith&#39;s (talk) 17:41, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Show me those facts are fake. They are not and you are excluding those important facts.
 * Fact 1: Tibet under Dalai Lama was a slavery feudal society. It's not allegeration.  Fact 2: Dalai Lama  has ties with Nazis.  There are plenty of photos to prove it.  Also "Seven Years in Tibet" author is a Nazi.  Fact 3: He was funded by CIA.  There was also a book about it. 17:46, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * How can I show they are fake? It's impossible to prove a negative (i.e. that they are not true)! Don't make unreasonable requests of people. John Smith&#39;s (talk) 17:58, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * But then why did you revert my changes when you've got no facts when I presented facts? Coconut99 99 (talk) 18:09, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * There is no connection between those assertions and the topic of this article. If you feel that you have to smear the Dalai Lama, then you should go vandalize Dalai Lama.  This article is about human rights, not the personal failings of well-known people.  Alexwoods (talk) 17:50, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Of course there are connections. Just like for the Guantanamo Bay detention camp releases, I added the fact that Guantanamo Bay detention camp itself is abuse of human rights.  You yourself approved the change.  Dalai Lama himself abuses human rights (as a slave master).  His motives for making those statements were to launch attacks on China.  17:54, 2 April 2008 (UTC)~  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Coconut99 99 (talk • contribs)
 * Fact 2: Dalai Lama has ties with Nazis. There are plenty of photos to prove it. Coconut, are you aware that the Dalai Lama was 10 years old when the Nazis were finally defeated in 1945? I'd like to see some photos about that! Really, common sense, please... -- megA (talk) 18:21, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Image:Burde.jpg
I have listed Image:Burde.jpg at Images and media for deletion. Please see the - I have done so for very obvious reasons as stated there. John Smith&#39;s (talk) 18:23, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you
Thank you for your reverts on the Human rights in the People's Republic of China. Obviously that you think that offering Dalai Lama's unsubstantiated view isn't biased or showing his glamorous picture isn't WP:COATRACK, while providing background information on him is. It must be entirely incomprehensible to think that showing that Dalai Lama's ties with CIA and Nazis would possibly hamper his credibility on human rights. After all he must be the nicest slave master in the world. One must be dying to get his bones picked out to make horns or cannibalized . Those human skull and human skin on Tibetan artifacts (same reference) must be only from quality rotten corpses. You are right that Dalai Lama doesn't even come close to CIA and Nazis in torturing and killing, as evidenced by the torture chambers and equipments . Where were the gas chambers and water boarding? Slaves have rights to be humanely eye gouged, or arms chopped. Thank you for pointing out that "allegations" is a trust worthy source while various books with photos etc are totally unreliable. After all, the 1959 failed coup, funded by CIA, didn't make Dalai Lama stating biased views. Thank for you for making Wikipedia a WP:POV place. Coconut99 99 (talk) 23:54, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Npov#Let_the_facts_speak_for_themselves
 * 74.67.17.22 (talk) 05:45, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Correct. I did NOT say Dalai is evil etc, nor did I argue that Dalai's view shouldn't be quoted at all.  I was arguing that the background information on him needed to be provided, if his allegations (WP:RUMOR) were to be used, and let readers to judge his WP:credibility.  Otherwise, we would just go out and quote anybody, while ignoring the WP:FACT on Tibet.  Coconut99 99 (talk) 17:30, 6 April 2008 (UTC)