Talk:Human sacrifice in Maya culture

Human sacrifice in Maya culture
Shouldn't this be at Human sacrifice in Mayan culture? —  Diva    Knockouts   03:21, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No, this has been dicussed several times in the past. Current academic usage favours "Mayan" as an adjective only when talking about languages, and "Maya" for everything else, so Mayan languages but Maya calendar, Maya civilization, Maya city, Maya stelae, etc. See also WikiProject Mesoamerica/Guidelines. All the best, Simon Burchell (talk) 07:03, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Quote from chapter of Houston & Scherer
In their article, “El Sacrificio Humano en la Parte Central del Área Maya”, pages 169-193 of El Sacrificio Humano en la Tradición Religiosa Mesoamericana, published by both the Instituto Nacional de Antropología e Historia and the National Autonomous University of Mexico, Stephen Houston and Andrew Scherer write:
 * Some examples [frescoes] of Piedras Negras, Guatemala, show a knife with knots of paper and a feathered plume of the sacrificial victim, with his heart possibly extracted, leaning over a bundle of paper for a burnt-offering.


 * The reduced size of the characters raises the possibility of youngsters or infants, whose breasts are opened more easily by its cartilaginous nature. There is a series of images on plates with infants whose breasts show a small cut on the heart (e.g., the famous dish of the Popol Vuh, K3395). But not all of them are representations. In 1985, as a member of Project Caracol in Belize, Stephen Houston excavated a reused crypt with at least twenty-five individuals, where he found the body of a newborn on top of a plate.


 * Incidentally, it is remarkable the presence of fire in scenes of children, such as in a mural of a jamb of Tohcok, Campeche, and another on Stela 3 of Yaxhá, Guatemala. The first image traces the shape of a body on an incendiary base, bundles of firewood with ajaw on the head, corresponding to the sign of the homes of the founders of dynasties, especially those related to the pre-eminent city of Teotihuacan.


 * The second image shows the remains of a human body on a plate supported by cross-shaped sticks. From above fall grains of incense, ch’aaj in the ch’olan language in most classical texts; from below clouds of fire raise up. Through the sign for “wood,” té, inscribed next to the trait, it is indicated that the dish will also burn.


 * A documented vase (K1645) by Justin Kerr explains the mythical context of these historical facts. Two supplicant characters, the first perhaps tied as a captive (at least placed in a very uncomfortable position), faces two “packages” with heads of gods, a scene that appears in other vessels, but with different dates and other companions. The verb “born” sihyaj suggests that Chahk, the rain god, and the so-called god of “Pax” are newborns. In the vase K1645 the supplicants are ch’ajoomtaak, “those who spread incense.” The first character carries the attributes of the ch’ajoom, “incense spreader,” even a distinctive headband and a dress of dry leaves.


 * Both supplicants offer to the enthroned figures an object named “his foot,” yook, perhaps referring to the wooden scaffolding that stands in the stela of Yaxhá. The link to the fires is made clear with the presence of the inflammatory base behind the scaffold. Unlike other sacrificed children, the infant appears to be alive.

For a couple of images, including K1645, see here and here.


 * As in several Mesoamerican societies, the image of a supernatural act can function as a basic model for the dynastic rituals. There is a parallel in the evidence of the sacrifice by fire, a torture with fatal goals, applied by a god on the back of another…


 * The presence of infants over the plates, especially in contexts of way [Mayan word] or co-essences of Maya rulers, indicates that this is a special “food.” Usually, the way was very different food from the food of human beings, with emphasis on hands, eyes, bones, and in this case, the soft bodies of children.

Above I translated from Spanish passages from pages 170 to 173. Below I translate from page 182, where the authors discuss other Maya sacrifices:


 * The presence of women and children indicates that these individuals were not enemy combatants and strongly suggests a sacrificial context, though perhaps a sacrifice of wider political significance.


 * Several skulls of Colhá show marks of sharp and unhealed cuts, particularly around the eye sockets, which suggests that some of these individuals were flayed, either shortly before or after death. The skinning of the face supports the iconographic images of beheading showing substantial mutilation, particularly of the eyes. Although it is likely that much of this occurred post-mortem, we must ask whether at least some of these traumas were inflicted before death to maximize the suffering of those about to be executed.

Hope the above quotes can be useful for the article. (For the moment I don’t have much time to summarize them properly for the page.)

Cesar Tort 01:54, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks - I've added the book into the Further reading section. Simon Burchell (talk) 15:08, 7 December 2013 (UTC)


 * You’re welcome.


 * Leonardo López Luján and Guilhem Olivier are the main editors or coordinators of the book.


 * El Sacrificio Humano consist of two prologues; five sections, and 22 articles by 28 authors. Stephen Houston and Andrew Scherer are some the authors specializing in the Maya civilization.


 * I don’t know exactly how to cite references in “Further reading”. Alfonso de Maria y Campos is the general director of the INAH, and Alicia Mayer the director of the Institute of Historical Research of the UNAM. They did not contribute with articles to El Sacrificio Humano, only with brief prologues at the beginning of the book.


 * Cesar Tort 17:38, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Another important chapter
In “Sacrificio, Tratamiento y Ofrenda del Cuerpo Humano entre los Mayas Peninsulares”, by Vera Tiesler and Andrea Cucina, pages 195-226 of El Sacrificio Humano (see above), with 9 pages of bibliographical references, the authors let us know that contemporary Mayanists are using, in addition to the traditional Spanish chronicles and the pre-Columbian Mayan iconographic evidence, the science of taphonomy as tangible evidence, based on ancient skeletons, of human sacrifice in the Maya civilization.

The chapter mentions the results several skeleton studies that demonstrate that the victims were sacrificial victims of several forms of sacrifice.

The victim could have been shot by arrows or lapidated, his or her throat or nape could have been cut or broken, his or her heart could have been extracted either through the diaphragm or through the thorax; could have suffered multiple and fatal lacerations or incinerated, or disemboweled or skinned or dismembered and the body remains could have been eaten or used as trophies and in the manufacture of percussion instruments. The authors deduce this by the direct, physical evidence from the studied skeletons or other remains.

Cesar Tort 20:56, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks - this is probably pretty much the same information covered in the Tiesler and Cucina article already referenced. I am also (very slowly) reading through New Perspectives on Human Sacrifice and Ritual Body Treatments in Ancient Maya Society (Interdisciplinary Contributions to Archaeology) on my Kindle, by the same authors, and aim to expand the article considerably based on the contents of this. Simon Burchell (talk) 08:39, 9 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I guess that the 2007 Nuevas Perspectivas series of papers are about the same papers collected in 2010 under the cover El Sacrificio Humano, only that perhaps there was some editorial oversight in 2010 by López Luján to publish a comprehensive work with the imprimatur of both the INAH and the UNAM.


 * I was in Mexico City when the September 2007 international seminary on pre-Columbian sacrifice was celebrated in the Museum of the Templo Mayor, and am glad that you are reading in English those papers originally written in English. It is always unscholarly to re-translate it back to English for an English-speaking audience. However, there are some papers originally written in Spanish by the Mexican scholars. I’ll be reading the rest of El Sacrificio Humano this month and see if it can be useful.


 * There are several articles in El Sacrificio Humano on the subject of American sacrifice outside the Aztec or Maya world. The chapter I’ll read today is “El sacrificio entre los tolteca-chichimecas” and there are articles about other parts of Mexico. Could it be advisable to create another article, Human sacrifice in Mesoamerica to include the non-Maya non-Aztec practices? Or even more broadly Human sacrifice in pre-Columbian America to cover the whole continent (in El Sacrificio Humano there’s even a chapter on Inca sacrifice)?


 * Cesar Tort 17:22, 9 December 2013 (UTC)


 * P.S. The 2007 seminary was called “Nuevas perspectivas del sacrificio humano entre los mexicas”. By the way I agree that you removed the link to the Cenote in the See Also section but what about the link of Human sacrifice in Aztec culture that was in the same section? Was it not germane? Cesar Tort 17:31, 9 December 2013 (UTC)


 * So? Have you read my above P.S.? Cesar Tort 17:20, 18 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Human sacrifice in Aztec culture is of course relevant, but it is already linked from the Postclassic period (900-1524) section. Simon Burchell (talk) 19:43, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Tendentious
"Human sacrifice was relatively rare in Maya culture but..." Everything that follows contradicts this statement. All the literature contradicts this statement. History contradicts this statement. So why is it here except to assuage the concerns of the politically correct? Orthotox (talk) 18:00, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The key word here is "relatively" - the comparison is with the mass sacrifice practised by the Aztecs. Simon Burchell (talk) 20:49, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
 * That is not at all clear unless the word 'Aztec' makes an appearance somewhere in the sentence. Otherwise, by default the key word is 'rare'. DesertRat262 (talk) 02:38, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

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Evidence
After reading the article, I’m unsure about the reasoning. Was human sacrifice something done at regular intervals or for succor from a god during drought or was it just performed on captives of war and criminals as a form of capital punishment? Edwardtone (talk) 13:39, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

Untitled
How can be stated without doubt that Maya and other Mesoamerican cultures Practiced human sacrifice, since the only sources we have remanining are 1. Spanish and Missionary chronicles (biased and unrealiable) 2. Archeological interpretations based on descriptions by Spanish chronicles. Thus, this whole article is extremely unfair, unaccurate and tendencious, since employing any of these interpretations, Christian and other religious depictions and iconographies should be also linked to Human sacrifices (i.e consuming Gods flesh and blood). Without further insight into Mesoamerican symbolism and discovery of enough primary sources, all these interpretations are not empirically evident and respond only to an intended and partial research effort to confirm preconceived colonial ideas and schemes.
 * Unpublished, non-peer reviewed "research projects" aren't suitable sources for a Wikipedia article. Please revisit this article once this theory has been elevated beyond "fringe" level. Rklawton (talk) 03:25, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Non-peer reviewed projects aren't suitable sources for wikipedia? That's interesting because I've come across many wikipedia articles that rely on so-called sources that appear to be nothing more than glorified blogs created by random individuals with no obvious academic accreditation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.59.117.190 (talk) 04:45, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Whether or not sacrifices occurred  is debatable but the sheer numbers and frequency estimated by some of these interpretations are far-fetched and fanciful because if they were true these rituals would have wiped out a large portion of the population within a few years, in other words not realistically sustainable.

Considering the logistics that would be also be required to house a large number of these prisoners and then being able to carry out the rituals, it would be a monumental task to put it lightly. In all likelihood it was probably hyperbolic propaganda to strike fear into their enemies, and not necessarily to be taken as a literal account of events.

https://www.mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/home/no-such-thing-as-human-sacrifice — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.59.117.190 (talk) 15:15, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Evidence
The Link to the Madrid codex refers to the wrong codex (Leonardo da Vinci instead of Maya). 89.12.13.61 (talk) 10:40, 30 January 2023 (UTC)