Talk:Humboldt Bay

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Consideration of lack of need for disambiguation from other article with similar (previously used) name
As per Disambiguation when there is obviously a use for the same term that is much more frequently used than another use, then that article should be the one used for the term without disambiguation. For the sake of disambiguation the other link will be listed at the top of the primary use of the term. After 3 days, I will consider making the switch which would "undisambiguate" Humboldt Bay (United States) to Humboldt Bay, leaving the rare use of this location, Yos Sudarso Bay with a reference at the top of the Humboldt Bay United States listing. This article has no where near the name recognition of Humboldt Bay and the use of Humboldt Bay for that article is really a historical reference and an obscure one at that. Norcalal 05:45, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Humboldt Bay (United States) no longer disambiguated as per Disambiguation
For the edit history of the Humboldt Bay article previous to this correction (removal of unnecessary disambiguation) on September 29, 2008, please refer to the Revision history section of the now redirected Humboldt Bay (United States) article page. Norcalal 06:29, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Bay? Lagoon?...Questions debated and answered
Humboldt Bay has NEVER been closed off from the Pacific Ocean. Explorers and settlers used ships to enter the bay in 18o6, 1848 and since. Dredging was to maintain depth of entry and never to open or re-open a closed system. Please provide proof of Humboldt needing dredging before you declare it a lagoon. There is no such proof. Norcalal 04:23, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 * MORE DETAIL. Humboldt Bay has NEVER been closed off from the Pacific Ocean. Explorers and settlers used ships to enter the bay in 1806, 1848 and since. Dredging is to maintain depth of entry for larger ships and never to open or re-open a closed system. Please provide proof of Humboldt needing dredging TO AVOID CLOSURE of the entrance before you declare it a lagoon. There is no such proof. My own family (5-6 generations before me) crossed into the bay in a sailing vessel long before the Army Corp of Engineers began their work to ensure an deeper/safer opening, beginning in 1881. The jetties (stretching into the Pacific) are the other focus of their work. What information do you have that shows them dredging the entrance to preclude closure of a naturally open system? See the following article on dredging: Dredging Humboldt Bay Norcalal 04:39, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Reading the lagoon entry herein, there is nothing there that declares "California's second largest NATURAL bay" (excerpt from the Humboldt Bay Management Plan) as a lagoon. Norcalal 06:39, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Please see my responses RE: User:Norcalal at Thewellmantalk. The Humboldt Bay Bar is a creation of the action of the ocean that angles the entrance to the bay at a sharp 45 degree angle, generally. That "Bar" has never closed and the extensive construction of both jetties keeps this most dangerous of Bay entrances from being as deadly as it once was...especially previous to 1881. Norcalal 06:47, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 * This matter is placed for discussion at: Wikipedia:Editor assistance/Requests:Humboldt Bay (Northern California, USA) dispute. Lagoon or not? in an attempt to avoid consequences of disagreement or edit wars. It seems that the person who places a new category, if challenged, should have the burden of proof to bear rather than a continuation of the assertion without relevant citation. Norcalal 07:36, 1 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I have lived in northern California for over 30 years and understand Humboldt County residents' local perspective about the difference between Humboldt Bay and the three lagoons to the north. From an international geologic perspective, however, the term lagoon refers to the presence of a relatively shallow bar or reef separating the body of water from the sea.  The more encompassing term bay is applied both to relatively enclosed estuaries like San Francisco or Humboldt and to relatively open areas of the sea like Bengal or Biscay.  I invite attention to the following sources:
 * http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/123144/coastal-lagoon
 * http://www.ldoceonline.com/Geology-topic/lagoon
 * http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O13-lagoon.html
 * http://nesoil.com/sas/glossary.htm
 * The enclosing bar or reef defining a lagoon need not be complete and may be submerged. The Wikipedia article on lagoons notes many are named as bays or sounds.  Inclusion of Humboldt Bay in the category Lagoons of California reflects an international perspective and should not detract from the quaint local perspective observed by the naming of the article and inclusion in the category Bays of California.Thewellman (talk) 13:19, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The work of 30 engineers, water and ocean specialists, and the compilation of information of countless other resources (Humboldt Bay Management Plan and HUMBOLDT BAY HISTORIC & CULTURAL RESOURCE CHARACTERIZATION & ROUNDTABLE) from the past to the present is considered "quaint local perspective" lacking an "international" perspective. I think I understand you now. Where are the international sources that declare that Humboldt Bay is a lagoon? One more thing: Of the three lagoons you mention to the north, only Big Lagoon has any regular breeching by the sea and that is only the temporary result of major storm and wave activity in winter. That is not the case with Humboldt Bay, which is always open and was before stabilization. They are quite different examples. Norcalal 17:34, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

From an email from the experts at the Humboldt Bay Harbor, Recreation, and Conservation District: "Oceanographically, Humboldt Bay currently is an "embayment" that freely exchanges water with the nearshore Pacific. The salinity values of the bay's water vary from close to 35 per mil in most places most of the time to somewhat fresher in Arcata Bay and South Bay in the winter to somewhat hypersaline in Arcata Bay in the late summer (see the Shapiro Report).

That said, in a larger geomorphological context, there's no functional difference between Humboldt Bay and Big Lagoon or Lake Earl. In a purely geomorphological sense, Humboldt Bay is a "lagoon," created by longshore currents that pile up sand in a "bay-mouth bar" between protruding headlands; functionally the headlands in this case are Table Bluff (which interrupts the bar, otherwise it would be False Cape to the south) and the point north of Little River.

This is essentially the summer-season state for all of the "embayments" and "estuaries" along the Northern California coast (I rather suspect it's the state of all rivers along the entire coast in our Mediterranean climate -- bears some thought). All of the smaller river mouths are subject to closure every year (especially in drought conditions), and even larger river mouths sometimes close (the Eel River became a "lagoon" for a month or so one summer in the late 1980s, and the Russian River mouth is maintained open the same way Lake Earl is, by tractor).

The bay doesn't function in a purely geomorphological sense, of course, because the jetties at the entrance and the maintenance dredging prevent the bar from closing. However, under pre-settlement conditions it's likely that the bar west of Humboldt Bay was often closed for months in many years. Some people think that's why it took so long for the bay to be "discovered" by Europeans." -So we are all correct depending on how and when you apply the term. Norcalal 00:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Norcalal, if you get a response to your request for assistance in deciding this dispute, please ask them to look at Talk:San Diego Bay as well. My challenge to Thewellman on that page is valid here too: I await his WP:reliable source referring to San Diego Bay, in the present day, as a lagoon. That's how differences of opinion are decided on Wikipedia - not by one person's interpretation or another person's opinion, but by reliable third-party sources. --MelanieN (talk) 00:37, 2 December 2009 (UTC)MelanieN
 * Yes, we need third party sources. And I have asked the experts up in Eureka to provide them for Humboldt Bay. I suppose we are long overdo for the fleshing out of the geomorphology of the Bay, both PAST and PRESENT. WE need sources, regardless... Norcalal 01:05, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

The Origin and Etymology of Current Geographical Names by Gudde, Edwin G. & Bright, William (2004) indicates Arcata is the Yurok phrase for "where there is a lagoon" (referring to Humboldt Bay). The Yurok applied the same name to Big Lagoon.Thewellman (talk) 17:26, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The Wiyot controlled ALL of the area around Humboldt Bay, including where present day Arcata exists. The Yuroks were north of there. The urban dictionary shows the following definition:

1. Native American word meaning "around the BAY." The city's own website shows the following definition: a Native American word: ar-ka-ta meaning something like "a place to land" and /or "o-ket-oh" meaning "where there is flat water". We need to include this history...
 * We already know that the Bay was likely lagoonal (lagunal) in late summer previous to the changes made by the Army Corp of Engineers. That has no bearing on today. Also the name "Arcata" is not definitively understood. There is no agreement on that name and never has been. Norcalal (talk) 20:33, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Lets add some properly resourced geomorphology over the long geologic history and see about placing the category back after that. Then it is in context and all issues may be dealt with. Make sense? Norcalal (talk) 20:49, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I am puzzled by your reference to the present tense for this categorical listing. It seems of comparatively little relevance for a subject with life measured in geologic time. Lagoons go through varying stages of salinity and tidal fluctuation with seasonal or longer-term climate change or as sea levels change or local tectonic plate movement occurs. Many, including Humboldt Bay, have been recently altered by man. I suggest encyclopedic coverage of the subject of lagoons would benefit from a listing of examples in differing stages of historical variation.Thewellman (talk) 22:50, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * You still cite only one version of the meaning of a name of the secondary city adjacent to Humboldt BAY. It is quite simple. Provide a citation to text in the article calling Humboldt Bay a lagoon and we are there. Norcalal (talk) 23:18, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

The description on page 6 of the United States Army Corps of Engineers publication Humboldt Bay Entrance Channel seems fairly unambiguous: "Humboldt Bay is a multibasin, bar-built, coastal lagoon located approximately 260 miles north of San Francisco, CA, and 220 miles south of Coos Bay, OR." I have added a link from the article.Thewellman (talk) 23:49, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * As definitive as one can get!...and now placed in the article. More work needed...as always. Regards. Norcalal (talk) 00:57, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Second largest bay in California
I see that this claim is backed up by a decent reference, but my first thought was, "What about Monterey Bay? Santa Monica Bay? San Pablo Bay is several times larger, but perhaps considered part of the "greater" San Francisco Bay? What is meant by "second largest bay" is apparently about something other than water bodies named "Bay". Another page at the site referenced, Arcata Fisheries Technical Report Number AFWO- F-07-04, says "Humboldt Bay is the second largest estuary in California". That sounds better to my ears. It omits Monterey Bay and other "marine bays". Another page at that site, Humboldt Bay Management Plan, Appendix A, puts it, "Generally, Humboldt Bay is the second-largest estuarine water body on the California Coast (after the San Francisco Bay-Delta)". This statement not only specifies "estuarine" but also says the largest is "San Francisco Bay-Delta", which would include such things as San Pablo Bay. Perhaps it would be better to say "estuary" instead of "bay" so people like me wonder about Monterey Bay, Santa Monica Bay, Morro Bay, and many other obviously larger bays of California. The reference cite could go to one of the pages I just quoted. This is just a suggestion. I read the claim and found it hard to believe, and quickly disproved it by looking at a map and noting the various "bays" of California. Then I checked the reference and ended up confused. Pfly (talk) 08:44, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

PS, something is wrong with the infobox's "water volume" field. It says the bay's water volume is "17,000 acres". But acre is an area measurement, not volume. "Acre-feet" would be volume, or cubic feet, miles, etc. Pfly (talk) 08:44, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

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External links modified
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