Talk:Hunlen Falls

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A few things to add in there
Hello Skookum

Nice article. I would like to point out a few things. First of all, I suggest that you say it cascades another 400 feet (or how far it does after that, I forget) after the main drop rather than just saying it drops that because then you are being more specific. The other thing I'd change is I'd add a little message in brackets after it says its the second highest in Canada saying something like although this claim is quite questionable since several unmeasured waterfalls appear to be higher. Other than that though, great article. I think I'll add in a geobox.

Later

AndrewEnns (talk) 16:51, 24 May 2009 (UTC)


 * All I was doing was adapting what's in the BCGNIS cite; it sounds like there's two waterfalls in sequence, like Crown Lake Falls in Marble Canyon; I've never seen pics of the lower falls; it was BCGNIS who used the verb "cascades" so maybe it's a horsetail-like outflow from the bottom pool - ? - of the first big one. Other waterfalls in the list are, SFAIK, also "multi-tier" and not one big free fall; I'm not a waterfall aficionade so don't know what the rules are; FWIK Hunlen's difficult to photograph/measure because of the depth of the canyon the first fall drops into.  My main concern is that BCGNIS/BC Parks give a bigger height than what's in the waterfall databses in the List of waterfalls in Canada article.Skookum1 (talk) 17:09, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The BC Parks brochure on the trail says 260m, which seems to be for the main drop; I was hoping it would have more; it does give the name of the native trapper, Hana-lin, but still doesn't say whether he was Nuxalk, Tsilhqot'in or Ulkatcho (the three possilbilities in this area).Skookum1 (talk) 17:18, 24 May 2009 (UTC)


 * BTW your suggested line "although this claim is quite questionable since several unmeasured waterfalls appear to be higher." is WP:OR. How it could be put instead is to say, of the measured falls, that they are the first/second/whatever highest measured falls on record.  To me, clearly, there are much bigger in the southern Coast Mountains than Shannon or Bridal Veil, for instance (especially around Hope-Laidlaw-yale when it's raining LOL - and really most of the creeks coming down the side of Howe Sound are one big series of waterfalls, i.e. in "steps"....).  Found mention of others lately too; google "Little Niagara" in Goldstream, Atlin Falls (in BC Archives only, no BCGNIS for it), Granite Falls (British Columbia), Spray of Pearls Falls (both of those in BCGNIS, plus others in that same area including Seymour Falls and so on.  Like mountain articles for BC, we've only just begun to scratch the surface; but reckoning in speculations on un-measured, un-named ones is not Wikipedia's job and is OR/Synth.....Skookum1 (talk) 17:23, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Ya the height of the falls is certainly debatable as well as difficult to get an accurate figure on cuz of the canyon the falls are in. I've seen a picture of the falls on Google Earth that is taken from in front of the falls, but at least several km away and from there it does appear that there ARE more cascades below the main drop.

As for those 4 or 5 falls you mentioned in your second paragraph, I've heard of all but 1 of them. Niagara is a 150 foot high, very thin horsetail on a tributary of the Goldstream River. As for Atlin Falls, I'll do some research on it cuz I've never heard of it. Granite Falls (British Columbia) (also & formerly known as Fairy Falls)is the most well known waterfall up Indian Arm. I've seen several photos of it; its a 150 foot cascade thats quite impressive especially in high water when most of the water is allowed to flow over it (its been harnessed for hydro power). Spray of Pearls Falls is located near head of Indian Arm; I've never seen a picture but looking at Google Earth it looks quite tall. Also note Silver Falls; it is probably the second most well known and second best falls up Indian Arm.

Now that I've succesfully gotten myself going about falls out in Indian Arm, I think I will do an article called Waterfalls of Indian Arm which will have info (& maybe some pictures) on some (if I can find enough info, maybe all) of the falls up there.

Oh yeah, just about forgot, Seymour Falls I don't think exists anymore. I believe it was submurged under the waters of Seymour Lake, the reservoir created by the Seymour Falls Dam. I'm not 100% sure about this, but I'm for sure 95% sure the falls don't exist anymore. Cheers AndrewEnns (talk) 18:20, 24 May 2009 (UTC)


 * LOL I just typed in Atlin Falls BC on Google & I realized I knew about the falls all along. They are located within a canyon on Pine Creek, which flows west into Atlin Lake.  The falls I think are more commonly known as Pine Creek Falls.  I've seen pictures & based on the photos I've seen they don't appear to be very significant.  Regards AndrewEnns (talk) 18:23, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Submerged waterfalls still get articles if notable; another is Cayoosh Falls though I don't htink I ever got around to making that; likewise Stave Falls and others, so Seymour Falls as a historical waterfall "exists" (in history)....Skookum1 (talk) 18:26, 24 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Cayoosh Falls would be a good article to create because there is lots of history surrounding it. As for Stave Falls, I believe most of the falls have been submerged.  There is a remaining part (I would know this cuz I've been there & seen it) that is located just below the section of the dam that is over the Blind Slough.  Its very small & insignificant though.  You can see it from the sidewalk on the road located on top of the dam.  BTW there appears to be several very significant waterfalls on the Stave River above Stave Lake.  I also found a monster (looking at Google Earth, it appears as though it may be one of the most impressive & tallest waterfalls in Canada) on a glacier-fed tributary of the Upper Stave.  I believe I worked it out to be about 1800 feet high.  It drops down a big cliff in spectacular fashion before meeting the river.  At home, on Google Earth, I've got a placemark on it, however I'm using a different computer right now that doesn't have Google Earth so I can't get the coordinates for it today.  Just wait till' someone goes up & discovers this bad boy (hopefully that will be me).  Come to think of it, I think I'm going to e-mail Bryan Swan & give him the coordinates for it so he can do an article on it on the WWD.  AndrewEnns (talk) 18:42, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The Blind Slough Dam is atypical because it was built above the falls, rather than submerging them; that's the original route of the river, which didn't go via wher ethe powerhouse is, which is an artificial watercourse ("tailrace"); technically a run-of-the-river project though with a huge holding pond (Stave Lake). Where's the watefall on the upper Stave you're talking about - just east of Howay?  I'm thinking from Kranrod Lake, unless you mean farther up; I htink if you do get up that way you'll find that Glacier Bay, just south of Tingle Creek/Bay, has some big horsetails and likewise up the Tingle Creek Valley (there's a really good aerial of that I uploaded into Bivouac; don't have a membershp anymore but if you type Tingle Creek in their search window and have a membership you can get at it; it's a BC Govt photo so it's NOT theirs, though I can't remmber the date so don't know if it's pd-50 or not....Skookum1 (talk) 18:56, 24 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Right now, like I said earlier, I'm using a different computer at another place. At home I've got Google Earth as well as the basemap.  But where I am right now, I'm using an old Windows 98 Computer that won't run either Google Earth or the basemap.  Because of that & because I forgot to bring my backroad mapbook, I honestly don't know where exactly Kranrod Lake is or the falls I'm refering to.  It really sucks.  I do believe though, that the falls I brought up are on a creek draining an unnamed lake.  Tommorow when I get back home I will get the coordinates for this big falls I found.


 * Tingle Creek, ah yes I forgot, yes there is for a big falls not far below the outlet of Tingle Lake. The creek, shortly after leaving the lake, drops into what looks (based on what I remember seeing on Google Earth) like a very deep but short gorge.  The falls are at the head of the gorge.  I believe I worked them out to be 1000 - 1200 feet high.  In any case, I do know they are not as tall as the one further up the Upper Stave River Valley but it definetly is quite significant as well.  I do remember that you can't see very well on google Earth into the gorge because its very dark however its obvious there is a big falls there. AndrewEnns (talk) 19:20, 24 May 2009 (UTC)


 * LOL I just got home & I checked out the falls on Google Earth & I must have confused this on for another cuz I measured it & its only 960 feet which is quite insignificant compared to how tall I though the falls were originally. Despite that, I think I will still tell Bryan about because although not as high as I originally thought, they still look to be very impressive & at least are one of the best in BC.  He still may wanna put them on the WWD.  BTW the falls' coordinates are 49.68333°N, -122.50778°W & they are fed by a small lake which is at the toe of the Piluk Glacier.  BTW you mentioned a lake called Kranrod Lake.  I've never heard of this lake before.  Its not on my mapbook of the area & its not in BCGNIS.  Where is this Kranrod Lake as I'd be interested to know where it is.  AndrewEnns (talk) 05:18, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I was wrong about the name; it's on the southwest side of Mt Kranrod, which is a southern subpeak of Judge Howay; the name of the lake is Kunzelman Lake...pretty much a tarn, way up high.....This area is the Judge Howay Provincial Recreation Area and its terrain is significant enough that it coudl use an article; if there's any reports on it that could be used as cites that is. Some of the most rugged terrain anywhere (in the world), also some of the wettest.....sasquatch turf if there ever was one....must be stunning up in there, I've never seen it other than aerials....prob LOTs of waterfalls...is the one you're talking about on the creek off Piluk Lake?Skookum1 (talk) 01:19, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

As far as I'm aware, there are no reports or documentations (except for mine tho lol) of this falls I found (btw I still have not gotten around to telling Bryan Swan about it, I'll do that sometime soon) however, again, I believe, based on what I've seen on Google Earth that is a very impressive falls that one can only imagine will be discovered sometime in the next 3 years or so. The area up there is VERY remote; nobody ever goes up there aside from fisheries people who occasionally go up to see how the fish are doing. There is actually an old logging road (that isn't, unfortunately connected to the maze of logging roads heading up the east side of Stave Lake)that comes within about 8.5 km of the falls, so there would be a lot of bushwacking involved but it would be worth it. As for the terrain up there, yeah, it is very rugged & possibly one of the most rugged, most remote & rainiest areas on earth. An article about the Upper Stave River Valley would be worth making on its own & some of the info that I'd put on I'd simply transport over from the Stave River article. Just talkin about it makes me want to go there & just you wait, I will one day & hopefully I'll bring back lots of pictures & info that can be put on Wikipedia.

BTW yes they are on the creek draining Piluk Lake. Note that Piluk Lake is simply an unnofficial name (no BCGNIS page for Piluk Lake) for a glacier lake that is fed by its namesake glacier, which is officially named.

Regards

AndrewEnns (talk) 02:14, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Again, the proper name for an article on that area would be Mount Judge Howay Provincial Recreation Area; I don't think an Upper Stave River Valley article would survive, it would get merged into Stave River most likely; the uppermost end is in provincial park anyway; and I didn't know that hte rec area was turned into park in 1989 see here and taken out in 2000. There's no connection to the Winslow Lake logging roads (coming up out of Davis Lake Provincial Park because of a huge rockwall just south of the mouth of the upper Stave River; that route has been half-considered for a highway either via Tretheway Creek or Sloquet Creek; most likely a highway from Port Douglas to the Lower Mainland will come down the Chehalis because of terrain difficulties further west (Tretheway Creek would apparently need a big tunnel, for example). So the upper Stave will remain very remote, short of a trail access from Sloquet Creek or via Snowcap Lake/Fire Lake area (there's hot springs in the upper Sloquet btw).  The pass at the uppermost end of the Stave into the upper Pitt is one of teh rumoured locations of the Pitt Lake Gold cache btw, though I don't think that's in that article, you'd have to read Antonson's books.  Bushwhacking up there should be horrific, by any glance at hte kind of forest up the west side of Stave Lake and what the underbrush is like (close and dark); a circle route via Tingle Creek and back down the STave would be epic; take a good camera, and I'd recommend a 12-gauge with slugs for the bear and cats (and squatch?)...nobody's ever really photographed that area, and I suspect it's a pity. Anyway did a quick google and found in the Ministry of Forests Library:

1. The concept for Golden Ears-Mount Judge Howay / G. a. Fairhurst. by Fairhurst, G. a., British Columbia. Parks Branch. Planning Division. [Victoria, B.C.] : Parks Branch, 1976. Call #: 639.9509/ 711/F24c/1976 Full Text: 	http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfd/library/documents/bib83187.pdf 2. The concept for Golden Ears Provincial Park : Mount Judge Howay recreation area / M.H. Turner. by Turner, M. H., British Columbia. Parks Branch. Coastal Planning Section. Victoria, B.C. : British Columbia, 1975. Call #: 639.950-/971133/T875c/1975 3. Report on Mount Judge Howay and adjacent terrain : a proposed addition to Garibaldi Park / by R. H. Ahrens. by Ahrens, Robert H. Victoria, B.C. : Provincial Parks Branch, 1962. Call #: 639.950-/971133/A474r/1962

This and this I haven't looked closely at, maybe you can zoom in; that's all there is though....not even mountaineers' books cover this area, it's so remote. Maybe you could get funding and call your trip "research"....Skookum1 (talk) 03:55, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


 * To tell you the truth, I don't think I will be going up there anytime soon. It certainly does look like a spectacular valley though & it isn't all that heavily logged. I wonder if I could get a quad or 4WD onto Upper Stave River FSR?  Sure hope no highway is built, the valley looks like it is one of a kind & I'd hate to see it destroyed.


 * BTW: Don't bother giving me lkinks to those maps, I not only got my backroad mapbook which is very reliable & has the whole area mapped, but also Google Earth. I definetly don't need more maps lol.  Thanx for the basemap link tho, that has been VERY useful for me.  You also mentioned the Sloquet Hot Springs.  I also would love to check them out sometime as well.  My mapbook said they are one of the hottest hot springs in the Lower Mainland.  I could go there on my way to the Upper Stave Valley, however if I went via Sloquet Creek I'd enter in the upper reaches of the valley & I'd rather start from the lower reaches of the valley & work my way up.  Maybe I'd exit via Sloquet Creek.  I guess I got a lot of planning to do, especially if I want to cover the entire valley from Stave Lake all the way to the river's source.


 * Well, I don't really have much more to say now other than "geez, I can't wait till' I get up there sometime". I would for sure explore the valley thouroghly, take lots of photos & take down notes about the creeks, lakes & waterfalls & other features in the area.  Hopefully I will have my own website outside of Wikipedia by then.  Unfortunately, I don't, again, see myself going up there until at least 5 years from now but hey, its good to plan ahead!  I was just bringing that up because I really want to go up there one day. AndrewEnns (talk) 04:36, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

The Maplinks were for use in making an article, likewise the MoF Library links....Skookum1 (talk) 11:59, 26 May 2009 (UTC)