Talk:Huntington's disease/Archive 3

Healthy brain image
Frank from radiology,org has given given permission and uploaded an image of a healthy brain at the same section as the current picture for us: I am just wondering about whether to colour the perimeter black and how to place it in article. L&there4;V 22:09, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I am not really sure if it is a good idea to add the image, since they have been taken with different sequences (therefore the differences in tones; and this can lead to confusion.--Garrondo (talk) 15:00, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * What if I drag the paint program out and modify the gray scale etc to match ? L&there4;V 21:49, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * From my point of view would be something like "cheating": I mean, the image was done with an specific radiological technique (sequence) which produces its characteristics. Each technique (T1, T2, Flair...) has it advantages, disadvantages and specific uses but you can not transform one into another by using photoshop. Bests.--Garrondo (talk) 07:23, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Shame, I was hoping that was not the case, but suspected as much. L&there4;V 23:19, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Hairpin Loop causing the CAG-repeat
Shouldn't there be something on the mechanism that aggravates the CAG repeats and causes the repeat-number to increase over generations? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.238.142.12 (talk) 18:51, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Probably, but a few pointsa. The article covers a lot of ground already and last time I checked the articles covering this area weren't quite 'there' yet so we would have to explain another technical concept. I'm not sure if I found a satisfactory reference for this when I looked before. I also feel this subject might be better covered in the huntingtin article, once that is satisfactory then we could summarize it here. L&there4;V 21:15, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Comment on history section
A recent edition from a non identified user posted a big discussion in the history section. Not being the place for it I have copied it here for further comments.--Garrondo (talk) 14:50, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

EDIT: This article needs to incorporate recent genealogical research that corrects the mistaken genealogical assumptions made in the early 20th century by employees of the Eugenics Records Office and taken over uncritically into subsequent neurological studies by non-genealogists. Elizabeth "Knapp" [whose name was really Knopp] is not known to have suffered from HD, nor are other descendants of William Knopp known to have suffered from HD. Some notes on Elizabeth Knopp follow; more is available on her grandfather William Knopp.

Alice Wexler, The Woman Who Walked into the Sea: Huntington's and the Making of a Genetic Disease (New Haven and London:  Yale University Press, 2008). Incorrectly identified by Muncey, ERO, as a granddaughter of Elinor, wife of Nicholas Knapp.

http://www.rootsweb.com/~nwa/eknapp.html Back in 1671, the Reverend Mr. Samuel Willard was instrumental in preventing prosecution on the charge of spectral evidence when sixteen-year-old Elizabeth Knapp of his parish in Groton, MA became "bewitched" and accused not only a "very sincere and holy woman" but reviled her own pastor, Mr. Willard.

The victim of this "possession" was Elizabeth Knapp, the daughter of James and Elizabeth (Warren) Knapp, born at Watertown, MA on April 21, 1655. She was the granddaughter of two prominent men and original proprietors of Watertown, William Knopp and John Warren, both emigrant ancestors of their respective families.

Elizabeth Knapp was a servant in the Willard household when she first exhibited signs of possession. In his detailed account of the episode, Willard described his amazement when Knapp suddenly began to behave in "a strange and unwonted manner," giving abrupt shrieks and then bursting into extravagant laughter when asked what was wrong. As her symptoms intensified (she fell into violent fits, complained of being strangled, and attempted to throw herself into the fire), Willard wondered whether she was in genuine distress or merely dissembling.

According to Willard, in one of her early fits, "in which she was violent in bodily motions... in roarings and screamings, representing a dark resemblance of hellish torments," she frequently cried out, "money, money," sometimes "sin and misery" along with other, unrecorded words. Despite Willard's fears, Knapp never became a witch; she married and lived out her life as befitted a good Puritan wife and mother. So successfully did she obliterate her discontent and internalize her culture's model of virtuous womanhood that she almost completely disappears from the public records after 1673.

Elizabeth Knopp was also unconnected to the "Goodwife Knapp" who was executed for witchcraft (wife of Roger Knapp). There is no known connection between Roger Knapp and either Nicholas Knapp (follows) or William Knopp. The descendants of Roger Knapp were not HD carriers.

Neither was Elinor, wife of Nicholas Knapp, executed for witchcraft, nor has that family been documented to be carriers of HD.

The family of Jeffrey Ferris of Greenwich, CT, did carry HD, but were not involved with colonial witchcraft prosecutions in MA or CT. Contrary to Vessie, Ferris was not a half-brother of William Knopp and/or Nicholas Knapp (who weren't brother's either -- the whole "Bures Group" concept in Vessie and Critchley's articles is imaginary.

All of the above corrections have been mentioned in the notes to Alice Wexler's The Woman Who Walked into the Sea (2008, mentioned below), so should have been incorporated into this article.

Further genealogical data is available on all these families.


 * As a first answer: I have removed the E. Knapp section as a precaution. I leave here the material for future possible use. I do not feel that it added really that much so if its addition is controversial I believe that it is better to leave it out. Nevertheless some rewording may also fit. Bests.--Garrondo (talk) 14:59, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Material removed (it is easier to leave it here than to search for it inside the history of the article): A well-documented case is that of Elizabeth Knapp in 1671. Due to her abnormal posture and outbursts, Knapp was tried, but not condemned, of witchcraft in Groton, New Hampshire. It has since been accepted that Knapp was probably exhibiting symptoms of late onset HD. While this persecution may have happened in some communities, .--Garrondo (talk) 14:59, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
 * thanks, Garrondo. I agree. The rest of the history section has shaped up well and I too feel this info doesn't add much now, perhaps in the future with more certain references... L&there4;V 23:02, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't have a lot of information that will contribute to the historical corrections regarding Elizabeth Knapp, my 7th great-grandmother, except that I am a psychotherapist by training and the course of her hysteria, as well as the later course of her life, does not indicate HD. Her "possession" is completely consistent (in length--3 months), circumstances (an impressionable young girl thrown into new circumstances and separating her from her family) which created strong emotional reactions and conflicts with which she could get little cultural help; a culture that promoted "framing" her difficulties as "possession", etc. She was very lucky to have been in the care of someone kind and sympathetic who treated her competently, even according to current standards. There are lots of examples of this kind of short-term hysteria in cultural records--for example, the natives accompanying the North Pole expeditions who had three day fits of hysteria which ended in total exhaustion. Elizabeth's aunt, Mary Warren, is also a 7th great-grandmother of mine. There's no history in the family or family records (a well-documented family) of HD which has (I believe ala Woody Guthrie) a devastating effect on families. 75.33.143.180 (talk) 03:21, 4 February 2010 (UTC)Norma Marsh Barnett
 * Wow- insider information! Thankyou for that, seems it was correct to remove this information. Lee&there4;V (talk • contribs) 01:00, 9 February 2010 (UTC)