Talk:Hurricane Electric/Archive 1

No COI
I've edited this article, adding some fairly reliable secondary sources. i have no connection with Hurricane Electric, though I am proud to have them operating in my home region.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 01:55, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Can he.net please update their website/wikipedia article?
I've never seen such a poorly written PR piece. The statement regarding their largest ipv6 backbone gets shot down by the fact they aren't connected to major IPV6 networks. As of the time of this writing he.net's ipv6 does not communicate with level3s among others.Woods01 (talk) 15:13, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Hurricane Electric has direct native IPv6 adjacencies with Level3/Global Crossing, AT&T, Qwest/CenturyLink, Verizon/UU.net, NTT, TiNet/Inteliquent, Telia. This can be verified via their looking glass at http://lg.he.net — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.164.190.177 (talk) 05:18, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

The comment by Woods01 has been false since last year. What is the correct Wikipedia etiquette for removing it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.164.190.177 (talk) 05:29, 25 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Old discussion on a talk page will be archived in time. This page is specifically for discussion, meaning that there will be non-factual or incorrect statements here. This is normal, and not a cause for concert. —fudoreaper (talk) 04:56, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Proposed for deletion
I've started the longer 7 day deletion process to allow time for discussion on the removal of this article. This company is a colo provider like any other provider. This company (and certainly nothing in this article) has not broached the notability barrier by any stretch of the word. They are tiny, they are not industry game changing, nothing in the article is interesting. when i was reading through the last 2 years of sporadic edits on this company it consisted mainly of some employee apparently pasting a bunch of marketing stuff into the article and wikipedians spending a few days pulling it all out. Clearly the page has been long since abandoned as it's had 2 brief spurts of editing in several years. I think that's rooted, in large part, to the lack of notability of this company. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jgeddis (talk • contribs) 00:55, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Please do not re-add proposed deletion tags after they have been declined, as it is a direct violation of the Proposed deletion policy.  If you have done your research and feel this company is not notable, then WP:AFD is the correct place to go.  -- Eclipsed (talk) (COI Declaration)  08:10, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, that's simply not correct. It's your opinion that it belongs in AFD that you base solely on your undelete that was admittedly in bad faith. Policy does not support your opinion. This article would qualify for speedy deletion, 7 day deletion, and every other form. AFD is not a requirement based on policy. I'll be nominating it again. it seems as if a hurricane electric employee has again inserted all the same marketing crap and interviews that are self generated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jgeddis (talk • contribs) 04:55, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
 * It is policy that PROD cannot be used after even one editor objects. Because this article does not meet any of WP:CSD, AfD is your only option. And I'm not an HE employee.--Jasper Deng (talk) 05:00, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Sure it does, lets take a look at a couple: − 	G11: Unambiguous Advertising or promition. This has been true for years as you can see over several years of edit history. Please constantly come through and have to wipe out almost everything on this page because it's all spam. − 	A7: The burden is on you to show this organization is notable. Have you? Are half a dozen articles written by hurricane electric with claims about ipv4 and ipv6 make them notable? I'm not sure anyone would agree. Please support your position.
 * However, I do find the current state of the article very worrisome. I don't like the fact that concrete data like the fact that it was the first to connect 1000 IPv6 networks is very promising for the future of this article; it's also starting to become more promotional and less concrete.--Jasper Deng (talk) 05:12, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Jasper, had you taken the time to actually do the research and reading i did instead of just arbitrarily undoing a whole ton of crap you could have saved a ton of trouble seeing as you just arrived at the exact same conclusion i did. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jgeddis (talk • contribs) 05:16, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I have been reading this article for three years. Personally I think the article was fine before the edits of both of you. A7 does not apply because there is reliable third-party coverage. G11 does not apply because the version before the edits by both of you was fine.--Jasper Deng (talk) 05:18, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

You aren't looking at a long enough history. There isn't reliable third party coverage in any of these articles referenced. The articles i removed 4 weeks ago were all dead links. so what was your complaint again? It's all marketing bs, it's always been marketing BS. you're making assertions that are unsupported by the version history or previous references on this article. if you believe there is reliable 3rd party coverage post it. It shouldn't be too difficult to find it. Considering no *notable* 3rd party coverage has ever been referenced in "three years" you claim to take to read this article what's the issue? Let the article go where it belongs or fix it yourself.Jgeddis (talk) 05:26, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
 * No it hasn't. I did not find the article promotional at all, thus it is not unambiguous as required by G11. If you google Hurricane Electric you'll find quite reliable coverage that can be used to replace dead links thus this does not meet A7. I'll fix it myself if both of you agree that I can revert all of your changes and start cutting it down and rebuilding it the way it should be. As for a source, this is more than enough to justify notability.--Jasper Deng (talk) 05:27, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Jesper, that doesn't qualify it for notability by any means. It's an article that says very clearly hurricane electric claims this and claims that. Please find something where hurricane electric isn't the source of the material. That's at the root of the issue here. Every single article anyone has ever posted on this organization either is a dead link or HE is the source of the data. That's not acceptable. Further, HE is not an internet service provider by any stretch of the term and should not be called as such. They don't have a single ipv4 peer. all they do is connect to Any2. that doesn't qualify you to be called a carrier. and no i don't agree, all that material has been vetted my numerous people and repeatedly removed. Including all the references currently in this enrty. If you believe this company is notable please find an article from a reliable source in which HE isn't the source of the marketing data that article is referencing. Jgeddis (talk) 05:31, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
 * No, that's completely besides the point. This article alone would disqualify it from A7. Heck, we don't even have to include any data. However, none of this is grounds for deletion, period.--Jasper Deng (talk) 05:52, 20 June 2012 (UTC)


 * As User:Jgeddis has made some claims directly against me, both here and on my talk page, I've requested a Third Party take a look at this matter, see Third_opinion. -- Eclipsed (talk) (COI Declaration) 06:04, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
 * eclipsed, i have zero interest in you or your drama. have fun in your one sided dispute as the conversation isn't about you. it's about the notoriety of the article.Jgeddis (talk) 09:27, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Jesper you aren't supporting your position. You're just making vague references and nothing concrete. You pasted an article that CLEARLY stated a hurricane electric press release (marketing spew) was the source of the information. That does not qualify a company for notoriety, I'm sorry. Here's the given state of the matter:
 * I think this should be deleted based on Notability and Marketing spam. You yourself have even agreed with the latter.
 * You think the page should be retained based on regurgitation of a HE press release
 * Eclipsed thinks it should be retained because he removed the deletion tag in bad faith.
 * No one has done a single worthwhile addition to this page in the two weeks this has been going on nor in the 2+ years this article has existed. It's time to put up or shut up.

Therefore. Jesper agrees it's marketing BS, Eclipsed agrees it should be nominated for AFD. It sounds like we have consensus. I'll be adding several tags to the article that we have all agreed upon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jgeddis (talk • contribs) 09:36, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Jasper, i went back and read through wikipedia policy about the source you put as being tantamount that this tiny organization has any notability. please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources#Self-published_and_questionable_sources It speaks directly to your source, which is a blatantly self published source. just read the lead in to the article "Hurricane Electric, a Fremont, Calif., ISP, will announce on Monday that its IPv6 network has doubled in size in less than a year -- a sign of how rapidly IPv6 traffic is increasing across the Internet." it's the same for every single other reference in here. they're either company blogs (owen delong is an employee), company announcements, company claims, or company marketing material. Being a self published source is the common thread for any reference ever posted on this article. so again, this qualifies for speedy deletion what argument can be made, supported in policy, and supported by allowed resources to the contrary?Jgeddis (talk) 12:09, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Re the Third Opinion Request: Please see User_talk:Eclipsed. — TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 14:09, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Third opinion: Here's the deal regarding deletion. We first have to remember the general rule is that we do nothing here at Wikipedia without consensus. That's especially true for matters as important as the deletion of articles. We arrive at consensus through discussion. The place where we discuss article deletions is Articles for Deletion (AFD). CSD and PROD deletions are summary processes intended to apply only in those cases in which there is virtually no possibility that a article would not survive an AFD deletion discussion. (Sorry about the correction; one too many negatives there.) Thus, with only a couple of exceptions, if anyone objects to a criteria for speedy deletion (CSD) nomination or a proposal for deletion (PROD) nomination for any reason, for a bad or silly reason, or even simply for no specified reason, that is taken as a bulletproof indication that there is at least a possibility that the article might survive an AFD discussion and the summary process is no longer available. The mere objection is enough to require a discussion before the article is deleted. Renomination or an attempt to discuss a CSD or PROD nomination is inappropriate, as is renomination under CSD or PROD at the conclusion of a AFD discussion, because once a discussion is needed for deletion it is inappropriate for deletion to occur except through that discussion. Some exceptions do exist: Renomination under CSD is acceptable if the nomination is removed by the creator of the article. Renomination under CSD or PROD is acceptable in order to assert a wholly different reason for nomination than was asserted in the initial nomination (though it is a far better practice to get all possible reasons into the initial nomination and, should you fail to do so, to move on to an AFD and that's especially but not only true if the CSD or PROD nom was declined by an administrator). There are also special rules which apply if the CSD or PROD was done for copyvio OR biography of living persons reasons, but those do not apply here. Generally, it's acceptable to try a PROD if a CSD fails (and vice versa, I would presume, though I've never seen it done that way), though doing so is usually futile. Finally, just let me say that it's important to remember that there is no "right to deletion" (with the possible exception, at least in practice, of copyright violations and violations of the biographies of living persons policies and perhaps a couple of other legal-related issues) and that AFD is always the default process, with CSD and PROD deletions being the exceptions to the rule. Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 16:06, 20 June 2012 (UTC) PS: One clarification: It is not appropriate to renominate an article under CSD or PROD soon after an AFD nomination has closed as a "keep" or a "no consensus" even for a reason which not raised during the AFD except for copyright violations which first arise after the AFD has closed, since all possible reasons for deletion should be raised and be discussed during the AFD discussion. — TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 16:23, 20 June 2012 (UTC) Shouldn't the notability, original research, and "reads like marketing BS" tags be removed now that the page has been effectively wiped and restarted? Hard to say it sounds like Marketing Material if there isn't anything even on the page anymore... 67.169.44.243 (talk) 17:42, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Jgeddis, I've removed the AFD template from this article; the tag was posted as per the talk page, but the main concerns I see from the nominator refer to speedy deletion and not actual AFD deletion. I'd complete the nomination for you, but I don't want to incorrectly speculate as to the reasons you'd put forward - and thus screw up the debate. See WP:AFDHOW for the detailed instructions, or post a specific AFD rationale here and I'll complete the nomination for you. UltraExactZZ Said~ Did 15:27, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I stand by my view that this article is here to stay, but both Jgeddis' and Eclipsed's edits were completely unhelpful and need reverting so a proper cleanup can be done.--Jasper Deng (talk) 16:07, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Heading toward a proper cleanup
Reliable, secondary sources commenting on Hurricane Electric's IPv4/IPv6 peering/connectivity: Foosernetz (talk) 00:24, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hurricane Electric's AS (6939) is ranked #2 by the Cooperative Association for Internet Data Analysis (CAIDA) for AS Rank. http://as-rank.caida.org/
 * Notability in terms of IPv6 connectivity: largest network in terms of "routes carried" and "customer routes." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_IPv6_support_by_major_transit_providers
 * PeeringDB's page on Hurricane Electric shows a list of Public Peering Exchange Points and Private Peering Facilities: https://www.peeringdb.com/private/participant_view.php?id=291
 * Notability in terms of IPv6 connectivity (source article from 2009): "Geoff Huston, chief scientist at APNIC, says Hurricane Electric peers with 481 other IPv6 networks, more than twice the number of its nearest rival Tiscali, which has 189 IPv6 peers. 'If you equate largest to the best-connected network, yes' Hurricane Electric is the world's largest IPv6 network, Huston says. 'Or even if you equate largest to the network that sits at the center of the IPv6 Internet, again yes this is true.'" http://www.networkworld.com/news/2009/070709-hurricane-electric-ipv6.html
 * Notability in terms of IPv6 connectivity: CAIDA's graphic from Aug 2010 shows Hurricane Electric near the center of the IPv6 Internet.  http://www.caida.org/research/topology/as_core_network/pics/ascore-2010-aug-ipv6-standalone-1600x1333.png
 * Notability in terms of IPv6 connectivity: Renesys graphic showing Hurricane Electric as the number 1 network in their "Global IPv6 Internet Index Rankings" both in the size of the 'IPv6 Customer Base' and 'IPv6 Customer Growth.' http://www.renesys.com/blog/assets_c/2012/02/IPv6-rankings-thumb-690x231-527.jpg
 * Notability in terms of IPv6 connectivity (Renesys article from Feb 2012): "In particular, Hurricane Electric (AS6939) maintains a commanding lead over its nearest competitors in the IPv6 world." http://www.renesys.com/blog/2012/02/a-bakers-dozen-2011-edition.shtml First half of the article is about IPv4; the second half is about IPv6.
 * Robtex list of peers for Hurricane Electric: http://www.robtex.com/as/as6939.html#peer

Still no sources
I went through and tagged all the sources with their appropriate issues. Instead of simply reverting please fix the root problem instead. Wikipedia is very clear on it's reference and sourcing policy. Owen DeLong is a professing employee of HE and is specifically prohibited as a valid source for establishing "notability". Using "interviews" by current/former employees making unsubstantiated claims about his company flies in the face of WP:USESPS. Specifically the section that states "Self-published sources are never useful for demonstrating the notability of any subject." These articles have been repeatedly used for demonstrating notability and they are completely unverified and blatantly self published. The other two references that aren't sourced directly from HE do not qualify as reliable sources. Both are original research that isn't peer reviewed by any industry or any editors. One of them (Euro-IX) had their wikipedia page deleted 7 years ago by another editor as lacking notability.Jgeddis (talk) 06:33, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Read WP:SELFPUB. Then read it again. Joefromrandb (talk) 10:14, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Joe, i've read it plenty, thank you. I hope you can raise your level of discourse from condescension to meaningful dialogue. I've kicked this over to the admin board. For the record, I have no stake in it so I'm not sure why you're attempting to make it about me. It's about the article. Why not fix it instead of attempting to engage in an edit war? Thanks againJgeddis (talk) 10:34, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to go through each article reference item by item. Feel free to chime in with "why" if you don't feel there are issues with these sources:
 * 1) The statement "Hurricane Electric is a global Internet service provider offering IPv4 and IPv6 services" is supposedly supported by http://spectrum.ieee.org/podcast/telecom/internet/ipv6-is-coming-just-in-time. This is an interview with an HE employee Owen DeLong. This article clearly points out that statement is a claim made by HE and not the interviewer. That makes it a primary first party source according to wikipedia. "Hurricane Electric is a global Internet backbone provider that claims to have the largest IPv6 network in the world." Does this establish notability? This is a personal podcast of an interview with an employee by a non-news source.
 * 2) As measured by bgp.potaroo.net, Hurricane Electric operates the largest IPv6 transit network globally as measured by the number of networks connected (adjacent). The source this provides offers no context and doesn't substantiate or even make the claim in the article. It's just a list of adjacency by Hurricane Electric alone. It is not comparative to any other AS which is what would be required to say HE is the "largest". It would be like me posting a picture of a single storefront and saying this is the biggest supplier of woks in the world with no comparative analysis.
 * 3) https://lg.he.net is Hurricane Electric's web page. It's information is not peer reviewed and does not establish the claims preceding it. It seems inappropriate. It is a primary first party source and self published.
 * 4) http://www.thewhir.com/web-hosting-news/hurricane-electric-launches-premium-ipv6-tunnel-broker-service is a regurgitation of a Hurricane Electric press release. It clearly states such in the first sentence. and again in the 4th. This is self published. "Internet backbone and colocation provider Hurricane Electric (www.he.net) announced on Monday that it has deployed a new premium IPv6 tunnel broker service. According to the press release, the new tunnel broker service is designed to serve intensive business and enterprise computing environments." This is a self published primary first party source.
 * 5) "and a free IPv6 certification program" is supported by this self published source http://www.internetsociety.org/deploy360/resources/hurricane-electric-free-ipv6-certification/
 * 6) "According to Hurricane Electric's self-published statistics, as of June 25, 2012, there are 75,164 tunnels spanning 185 countries" this time the editor mentions that it is a self published source. This doesn't establish notability
 * 7) "via the IPv6 tunnel broker and 5,326 individuals have reached the highest level of the IPv6 certification" This is the same as above self published source but a different perspective. It doesn't establish notability.
 * 8) Finally we come to the last claim "According to Euro-IX Hurricane Electric connects to the 3rd largest number of Internet exchange points in the world." This link in no way supports that statement. It doesn't purport to be a listing of every single peering location in the world. Indeed, that would be impossible as private peering is commonplace. There are hundreds of exchanges left off "euro-ix's" list.

So of the above articles, which one establishes HE's notability? There are 5 self published sources, no news articles, and 2 sources that do not attempt support their assertions associated with them.Jgeddis (talk) 21:30, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Notability was established at the AfD which resulted in "keep" (not "no consensus"). Of the seven statements tagged as "self-published", I removed one, pertaining to HE being "one of the largest providers...". That one was correctly tagged. The other six are benign, non-contentious statements that give nothing more than simple, basic information about the company. These are perfectly allowable under WP:SELFPUB. Now secondary sources are always preferable, and if you can find some to replace the SELFPUB sources, all the better. Absent that, the sources are being used in a policy-compliant way. While good-faith tagging is always welcome, attempting to stultify a subject by littering an article with tag after tag is never acceptable, especially when said tags have been removed in good faith by multiple editors. Joefromrandb (talk) 22:39, 3 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Joe please be more specific as I went into great length on each source. Which source, specifically are you referring to that should be kept. The previous AfD is not relevant here, the article is not currently nominated nor are is there any imminent nomination that I'm aware of. What, specifically, are you calling "littering"? If you could please stick to the actual content instead of resorting to inflammatory adjectives it would make things much easier. Which specific article are you saying establishes the notability of this organization? If you agreed with some of my tags why haven't you removed the claims from the article itself. Making a claim like they're the largest IPv6 provider on the planet is by no means benign. That's an exceptional claim that is unsupported by any of the cited sources and directly contradicts wikipedia policy found here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability#Exceptional_claims_require_exceptional_sources. Agreed? So why is it still there? According to my 5 seconds of research on that topic China boasts the largest IPv6 network and has poured almost $200mil into it. That claim is actually sourced by a reputable news agency http://news.cnet.com/China-launches-largest-IPv6-network/2100-1025_3-5506914.html if you want some comparative context on the matter. That's more than Hurricane Electric will make over the next 20 years according to Hurricane Electric's own annual revenue data. Also please take careful note of #5 in WP:SELFPUB "the article is not based primarily on such sources." this article is based purely on such sources. and most importantly please refer to this section http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:USESPS#Self-published_sources_for_notability regarding self published sources. Let me quote it for you to save time, "Self-published sources are never useful for demonstrating the notability of any subject." Finaly, please pay particular attention to wikipedia policy regarding sources found here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Third-party_sources and here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability#Notability "If no reliable third-party sources can be found on a topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it." I am not currently aware of any primary third party sources cited in this article. If I'm mistaken please point to one. According to wikipedia policy on third party sources the first one is a primary first party source. Hopefully, instead of you folks attacking me personally and making wild assumptions about my motives (which i'll tell you what they are, I just want to clear the non-factual out of any article i read) lets focus purely on the content. if this organization is notable, surely folks can start coming up with primary third party sources. As some has mentioned it's been a year since this went through AfD as a keep and in that time not one single primary third party source has come to light. If it exists, lets get it in to establish notability. thanks againJgeddis (talk) 23:07, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Suggested source(s)
It seems to me Network World is an appropriate magazine in which to look for coverage for this type of business. A quick search of that site finds plenty of articles mentioning or exclusively covering this ISP or telco (or whatever the appropriate terminology for it is). Although old articles aren't all that useful for something as quickly evolving as the IPv6 market, they can still be used to reference historical achievements/status at given points in time. Someone not using his real name (talk) 12:39, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

That fact that they "entered the picture" as being in the top 10 networks [by number of peers] in this OECD book somewhere between 2006 and 2008 might also be worth mentioning. Someone not using his real name (talk) 12:45, 4 August 2013 (UTC)