Talk:Hurricane Paloma/Archive 1

Merge?
There's two lines, copied verbatim from the season article. Does anyone object to a merge for now? –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone  14:28, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Well to be honest.. i think whoever created this article was out of order as I was creating it. Also I have updated it a bit. User:Itfc+canes=me Talk  Contributions  17:21, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think it was out of order. He probably didn't know you were making it. I fully think it should stay, given how we'll certainly need it in the next few days. ♬♩ Hurricanehink ( talk ) 19:34, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Definite keep. The storm is developing an eye and is likely to become a hurricane, possible major within a few days. Also, landfall is unavoidable. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 19:42, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It's worth keeping now that it's been expanded. At the time of my first post, the article was barely a stub. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone  20:29, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

(2008)?
Is it possible we could make this article the main article? Paloma could be a very dangerous storm, so is it possible we could take the (2008) off this storm? 99.52.154.156 (talk) 22:05, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The key word is Could. Unless there is sufficient evidence of severe damage, numerous fatalities, or the name is retired, it remains (2008). Project standards incase you were wondering the reasoning behind this answer. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 22:08, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't know if it's too early; I was just putting this up because the official NHC forecast calls for Paloma to become a 105 mph category 2 hurricane, and it is forecast to directly hit Grand Cayman Island at that strength, not to mention it is expected to hold that strength through it's landfall in Cuba as well. I guess you are right now, though; we should wait until we get damage reports out from this storm. 99.52.154.156 (talk) 22:29, 6 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Since there is no other Paloma, Hurricane Paloma would redirect here no matter what. But leave the 2008 until the destruction is clear (if it does get destructive). There is lots of shear ahead of it though. CrazyC83 (talk) 23:50, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Wait untill next May when the WMO &/or the NHC confirms which names are retired from this basinJason Rees (talk) 00:10, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't go with that. Hurricanes Gustav and Ike don't have the (2008) with them, but those 2 hurricanes are guranteed retirement after this year essentially. Just because shear is ahead of Paloma doesn't mean it will weaken. Hurricane Omar earlier this year was sheared by a Cold Front, but it strengthened into a category 3 storm while being sheared on the way. Hurricane Ike remained a 100 mph hurricane across it's trek through the Gulf Of Mexico, but when a front approached, it quickly strengthened into a 110 mph cat 2 before landfall because the front penetrated dry air in front of it, giving it some time to strengthen before weakening. We should wait for now though. Hurricane Omar doesn't have the main article although it is the one and only Omar because damage wasn't severe and it isn't likely it will be retired. If Paloma causes enough damage to get our attention, we will give it the main article; it most recently became a hurricane, or is expected to do so soon. 99.52.154.156 (talk) 00:34, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Omar was sheared right after reaching its peak intensity. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 00:39, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I meant before it weakened it quickly strengthened. Paloma could be a very signifigant storm, but we are not sure yet. It is still forecast to be a category 2 when it affects Grand Cayman. We should wait before discussing about it having the main article. No damage or deaths have been reported yet, so we shouldn't discuss now; we can talk about it tommorow night at this time. 99.52.154.156 (talk) 00:45, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Also, why is the (2008) taken off in the article? Paloma does not deserve the main article yet, even though it's the only Paloma. Why has the (2008) been taken off? 99.52.154.156 (talk) 10:55, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure about it, but I would recommend taking off the (2008) now. It is rapidly intensifying; it is very likely it will reach major hurricane strength before striking Grand Cayman. Do you agree? 99.52.154.156 (talk) 21:20, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Unless the storm causes extreme damage, the (2008) should stay, regardless of intensity. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone  21:26, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Paloma has a great potential to cause severe damage, and although hurricane-force winds only extend outward 25 miles, TS force winds extend out 120 miles, and it is only moving at 6 mph, so flood potential is high. I highly expect Paloma will do severe damage. 99.52.153.15 (talk) 21:29, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, if it does cause severe damage, we can reconsider. Until then, speculating that Paloma might cause severe damage violates WP:CRYSTAL and WP:NOR. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone  21:32, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I guess you're right. We can discuss later tonight or tomorrow after damage reports come out. We'll keep the (2008) for now. Damage reports are already coming out on Grand Cayman, and I don't find damage severe as of now. 99.52.153.15 (talk) 21:35, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with Julian. But for all we know, Paloma might be causing severe damage right now, being a Category 4 right over the Cayman Islands. And Paloma could hit Cuba as a major hurricane, while the previous big storm like this, Omar, didn't make landfall. I say keep the (2008) right now, although that keep is reluctant. --Dylan620 ( Home •  yadda yadda yadda  •  Ooooohh! ) 11:49, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

We can hope it hasn't caused severe damage; the buildings on Grand Cayman are meant to withstand hurricanes like Paloma, but Little Cayman and Cayman Brac won't fare as well. The buildings on those islands can't withstand a Paloma-like storm. Grand Cayman is impacted by hurricanes more often than the other 2, so their building codes are high. Grand Cayman had weathered Gustav earlier this year, Dean of last year, Wilma in 2005, Ivan in 2004, and some hurricanes way in the past, like 1988's Gilbert, 1980's Allen, and many other storms, but the other 2 are going to get bombed by Paloma due to lack of advanced building codes. We aren't sure about what Cuba will reckon with yet; it has made landfall now. 99.52.153.15 (talk) 12:27, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Damage totaled to 1.4 billion just for Cuba. I'm not sure about the Caymans - until today, December 15, the damage toll is 609 million. I don't think it should deserve the main article still; anyone else agree? 76.235.222.163 (talk) 11:31, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Yellow, is there anyone out there that agrees on whether this article should be moved to Hurricane Paloma or not? I don't think it should. Anyone else agree/disagree? Well? Anyone else want to discuss about this page move?76.235.215.137 (talk) 11:28, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Please be patient. It does no good repetitively posting the same questions on talk pages. –Juliancolton Happy Holidays 21:37, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm not trying to be so impatient; it's just that the total has been found - at 2 billion dollars, and I wanted to know whether or not this article should be moved to Hurricane Paloma or not; I don't think it should be, but others might think elsewise, and I wanted to discuss about that here. There could be vandalism on this if we don't discuss about this; that was the case at one point while Paloma was active, when someone just moved the article without discussing about it. Do you support my side of this, Julian? 76.235.160.175 (talk) 22:18, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but we've discussed this before; unless the storm is a clear and utter catastrophe, we have to wait until the name is actually retired before moving the article. –Juliancolton Happy Holidays 22:26, 16 December 2008 (UTC)


 * If Paloma gets retired, then and only then will we move the page (Sorry if I offended you) --Ir 'me 'l a  22:27, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

I'll take that as a no. We'll wait on this one then. 76.235.160.175 (talk) 22:35, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Landfall on Little Cayman?
Although it is put down that Paloma only affected Little Cayman, it's eye has passed directly over the island, so wouldn't that apply as a landfall, not a direct hit? It's in the season effects chart, and it says "Little Cayman, Cayman Islands (direct hit, no landfall)", but because it's eye has passed direstly over the island, does that count as a landfall? 99.52.153.15 (talk) 11:08, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Hurricane winds
How far do hurricane winds extend out from Paloma's center? It was upgraded to a hurricane, so how far do those winds extend out? 99.52.154.156 (talk) 01:13, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * As of the 7pm adv. they're right around the center of the storm, no exact distance. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 01:29, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

They extend out 25 miles as of now. 99.52.153.15 (talk) 22:16, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Paloma major hurricane = new 2008 season record
Hi. With Paloma becoming a cat. 3, this means that 2008 is the first season ever in the Atlantic to have a major hurricane in five separate months...even 2005 didn't reach that record. I think this should be included in either this or the main season article. HURDAT could easily be used as a source for now. Thanks. ~ A H  1 (TCU) 00:22, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
 * HURDAT doesn't include Paloma yet, so it can't be used as a source. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone  01:21, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
 * There's another new record, or at least two reasons for notability. First of all, by becoming a major hurricane, Paloma is the strongest "P" storm in the Atlantic basin. Also, Paloma is the first November major hurricane since Michelle in 2001, and the first to actually form in the month since Lenny in 1999. Just a few suggestions for pointing out in the article. --Dylan620 ( Home •  yadda yadda yadda  •  Ooooohh! ) 02:32, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure if it would be a big record, but if Hurricane Paloma hits Cuba, will it mark the first time that three hurricanes have hit Cuba in the same season? I'm not sure if i'm looking hard enough about this. 99.52.153.15 (talk) 02:53, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure.... User:Itfc+canes=me Talk  Contributions  10:26, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I've checked all of the UNISYS track files, and haven't found a season with 3 hurricanes hitting Cuba, and Paloma could be a major hurricane when it hits, which could also be a record. 99.52.153.15 (talk) 11:00, 8 November 2008 (UTC)


 * And how about: 'Second latest formation of a storm that reaches category 4 strength in a season' after Lenny or are there any other later Cat 4 storms? crandles (talk) 11:44, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Remarking the IP's comment, first Gustav, then Ike, and now Paloma? Cuba's really having it crappy this year. --Dylan620 ( Home •  yadda yadda yadda  •  Ooooohh! ) 11:54, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Hey, Haiti also saw catastrophic effects with 4 storms this year: Fay, Gustav, Hanna, and Ike. However, the U.S. had the worst damage; 6 storms made landfall in the U.S. this year, including 3 hurricanes, which were Dolly, Gustav, and Ike (Gustav and Ike could have been cat 3's at their landfalls if determined in post-season analysis). Paloma would be the second latest category 4 to form in November; other hurricanes, like the Cuba Hurricane of 1932, reached that strength later than Paloma, but actually formed in late October. 99.52.153.15 (talk) 12:13, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Another record it had set, I think, is when Paloma became a category 3 storm, it marked the first time that multiple major hurricanes (at least 2) formed after September in the season. 99.52.153.15 (talk) 12:18, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Nah; in October of 2005, there were Hurricanes Wilma and Beta.--Dylan620 ( Home •  yadda yadda yadda  •  Ooooohh! ) 13:17, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Okay, second time. It would mark the only time 3 hurricanes have struck Cuba in one season, though. Oh, it was actually the third time it happened, there was also 2001, with Iris and Michelle. 99.52.153.15 (talk) 15:02, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll go check that one out, I'll be back in a few with the answer. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 15:35, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
 * 1870 is close, definite two, possible third. Ok, regardless, it's not a record. 1886 Four hurricanes and one tropical storm made landfall in Cuba. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 15:39, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, if Paloma comes in as a category 3 storm, I think it will mark the first time 3 major hurricanes have hit Cuba in one season, with the other 2 being Gustav and Ike. This year does not have the most landfalls overall, but it would be, I think, the first season in which 3 hurricanes of at least category 3 strength have came into Cuba. Would that be right? 99.52.153.15 (talk) 15:47, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
 * You keep trying to find something don't ya, I'll go take another look. That one does seem possible. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 15:48, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I see no other season with more than two major hurricanes making landfall in Cuba. Closest was 2004, Ivan and Charley hit, Frances was somewhat close. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 15:56, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Then that's a record Paloma would set. First time 3 major hurricanes have hit Cuba in the same season, if it is a cat 3 when it comes in. By the way, with 2004, Ivan didn't make landfall in Cuba; it narrowly missed the western tip of the island as a category 5 hurricane, so that would be a direct hit in reality. 99.52.153.15 (talk) 15:59, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

It happened. Paloma weakened, but still hit as a 125 mph storm. First time 3 major hurricanes have hit Cuba in the same season; Gustav and Ike were the other 2. 99.52.153.15 (talk) 00:13, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

In addition, if Paloma comes in as a cat. 4, 2 of the 3 major hurricanes would be category 4's when they struck Cuba, also a record. I'm not sure if it will come in as a weak cat. 4 or strong cat. 3, but either way, it will set a record. 99.52.153.15 (talk) 21:18, 8 November 2008 (UTC)


 * PALOMA IS NOW THE SECOND STRONGEST ATLANTIC HURRICANE EVER NOTED IN NOVEMBER BEHIND LENNY OF 1999. -Ramisses (talk) 21:29, 8 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Paloma is heading to Santa Cruz, Cuba ,same place that 1932 hurricane hit and same day!--Kirk76 1854 Atlantic   Hurricane Season  22:01, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I know. Weird, isn't it? Oh, and by the way, 99.52.135.15, Paloma came in as a strong Category 3. --Dylan620 ( Home •  yadda yadda yadda  •  Ooooohh! ) 00:12, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I know. Also, damage has been upgraded to 2 billion, making Paloma (I think) the most destructive November storm on record. 76.235.215.137 (talk) 11:41, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Retirement
I think Paloma should get retired because it was a cat. 4 and it might have caused lots of damage, but I am going to wait till the damage gets posted to see if I want to change my mind about retiring it. --12george1 (talk) 16:21, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Please, we've been through this with nearly every storm this season; let's not speculate about retirement. It has nothing to do with improvements to the article, and is thus a violation of talk page guidelines. Thank you. –Juliancolton <sup style="color:#666660;">Tropical <sup style="color:#666660;">Cyclone  16:42, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Juliancolton is right; you are violating talk page guidelines assuming it will be retired. Now is not the time to talk about this. Just wait for now, thanks. 99.52.153.15 (talk) 16:46, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * But at least I have a reason for retiring it. --12george1 (talk) 15:32, 10 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Every storm could get retired! (Even Josephine!), so please stop speculating!--Kirk76 1854 Atlantic   Hurricane Season  17:35, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Please keep your speculations to hurricanes.wikia, thanks. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 17:40, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Don't talk here. If you want to talk, go to the wikia page, period. This section is only about Paloma's retirement, which we won't discuss about now. Don't put your comments on some random talk page; do it on the wikia page. You are violating talk page guidelines doing this. 99.52.153.15 (talk) 17:47, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

The damage report has came out, and Paloma's damage for Cuba only totaled to 1.4 billion. It is not very likely it will be retired, but it could be retired after this year. I'm not saying Paloma won't be retired after this year; i'm saying it doesn't deserve the main article because it's not likely it will be retired. 76.235.222.163 (talk) 00:37, 13 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I.4 billion is a lot, and please stop!--Kirk76 1854 Atlantic   Hurricane Season  00:55, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

If you want to discuss about this, then go to the Wikia page Cyclonebiskit typed above, go to discussion at the top of the page, and put your speculectations there. Don't do it here; it's rude, inaproppriate, and violating guidelines, or laws, of talk pages. By the way, 1.4 billion may look like a lot, but for a strong category 4 hurricane, it isn't so much. Hurricane Dolly earlier this year caused a greater amount of damage than Paloma, but was much weaker. That hurricane does not have the main article, and the same should be with Paloma. We aren't speculectating; we are convincing others that, despite it's effects, we don't think it deserves the main article because it isn't enough. 76.235.222.163 (talk) 11:24, 13 November 2008 (UTC)


 * People can talk about the retirements in the WPac if they so wish on the wpac page as thats not viollating any rules as they are meeting this week.Jason Rees (talk) 18:09, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Now your'e getting off-topic. Paloma will not have the main article period. You should put that in the west Pacific article, not here. 76.235.222.163 (talk) 22:53, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Records
Why are all of Paloma's records put in the 2008 Atlantic hurricane season main page when they are already put down in the main article? Could we delete some of them, or move them to Paloma's main article? 99.52.153.15 (talk) 20:26, 9 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Unless it's given as a summery, they should be moved here. I've got another possible record that is going to take some deeper research. Paloma very well could have undergone the fastest intensification outside September, October and maybe August in Atlantic history. It went from a Category 1 to a Category 4 in like 12 hours. -- Hurricane <b style="color:#3333FF;">ERIC</b> - Class of '08: XVII Maius MMVIII 07:12, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not so sure if Paloma strengthened that fast; I'll check the NHC advisories just to make sure. --Dylan620 ( Home •  yadda yadda yadda  •  Ooooohh! ) 10:45, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Good guess, but after strengthening out of Category 1 intensity, it took 13 hours and 8 minutes before it became a Category 4. --Dylan620 ( Home •  yadda yadda yadda  •  Ooooohh! ) 10:49, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Damage?
In the infobox, where did 9.4 million come from? Was that made up, or where did it come from? 99.52.153.15 (talk) 22:42, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Will anyone tell me where 9.4 million in damage came from? This storm caused severe damage across it's path, and dozens of homes were destroyed. 9.4 million in damage is clearly not how destructive Paloma was and it should be removed. Does anyone agree? 99.52.153.15 (talk) 00:55, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * If there is no source, then yes. I think it is just a misread from a source that said that Hurricanes Gustav and Ike caused a combined 9.4 billion in damages to Cuba. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 00:57, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I think Gustav and Ike caused around 7 billion in damage to Cuba. Nontheless, 9.4 million in damage isn't backed up by any refs, and Paloma clearly wasn't that destructive; it caused much more than that. 9.4 million should be removed. Either that, or that was just from Grand Cayman, not Cayman Brac or Cuba. 99.52.153.15 (talk) 01:03, 11 November 2008 (UTC)


 * The 9.4 billion is confirmed, there's no differentiation between the two storms though. (Last of my thoughts on an off-topic subject) Yea, I agree, should be removed. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 01:05, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Reference to 1932 hurricane
You have "before making landfall near Santa Cruz del Sur, Cuba that evening, striking on the exact same day at the exact same place that the 1932 Cuba Hurricane did 76 years earlier." But it was also the exact same intensity. 125mph. And i think that would be worth adding. Talk about weird. -Winter123 (talk) 00:04, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * No, The 1932 Cuba hurricane hit as a category five, 160mph winds. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 00:45, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Wrong, Cyclonebiskit. The 1932 Cuba Hurricane hit as a 135 mph category 4, but detailed reanalysis could upgrade the storm to a category 5 upon it's landfall. 99.52.153.15 (talk) 00:55, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It's half-half, reanalysis will come out sometime in the next 10 years, but a detailed study from colorado uni. (i think) showed that the storm had 160mph winds at landfall along with a pressure of 914.6mbar. But then again, I tend to lean towards a more intense storm ;) Regardless, it wasn't the same intensityCyclonebiskit (talk) 00:59, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I know. We'll wait until it is announced before moving it. 99.52.153.15 (talk) 01:05, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Damage reports
Is there any way we can get damage figures out from Paloma? I have found some figures, but I can't upload them. Is there anyone who could find any damage reports from Paloma? If anyone has a license, then I can give them the link for it. 76.235.205.44 (talk) 22:04, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Paloma will likely be retired looking at the current damage estimates, in the Billions already only in Cuba. They retired Hurricane's like Isabel that caused that amount of damage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.184.33.67 (talk) 22:43, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

That wasn't what I was saying; I found some images of Paloma and damage reports from Cuba, but I can't upload them, and i'm looking for someone who can. 76.235.205.44 (talk) 01:15, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * What site are they from? Not all photos are able to be uploaded to the site. Ones from non-US governments usually aren't free-use images if I recall the policy correctly. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 02:47, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I found them at Google Images, one of them is voices.washingtonpost.com/capitalweathergang/images/paloma.jpg, which is an image of Paloma hitting Little Cayman and Cayman Brac at categry 4 intensity, and the other is newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45188000/jpg/_45188264_cuba512.jpg, which is a damage report I found in Cuba. 76.235.205.44 (talk) 21:39, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The first one is good since it is from NOAA. However, a direct link to NOAA is highly preferred. The second one is from the BBC, and I'm not sure about the copyright laws regarding it. However, the image doesn't seem have much importance as it doesn't really show any damage, just a man holding something purple (I think). Cyclonebiskit (talk) 21:53, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

You're right. It's just a picture of a man holding a matress. I found 2 more images, though, one is cache.daylife.com/imageserve/054gfzmdhD6cw/610x.jpg, which is just a bigger version of Paloma hitting Little Cayman and Cayman Brac, and cache.daylife.com/imageserve/03YX9Tc2We04X/610x.jpg, which is a better damage report from Cuba. Could either of these be put in? Or, are they appropriate? 76.235.205.44 (talk) 22:49, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Well? Could either of the above images be put in? I'm not sure if they can, but do you know if they are appropriate? Yellow? Anyone there about this? 76.235.205.44 (talk) 11:08, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the late response, forgot to check in here. The first one is good, but a bit unnecessary as it is just an IR view of basically the same image that is in the main infobox. The second I'm not sure about, do you have the original source of the image? Cyclonebiskit (talk) 21:59, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

It was from daylife.com. Is it okay, though? It is a good damage report from Cuba, but is the source okay? 76.235.205.44 (talk) 14:06, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Yellow, Biskit, ya there? It was from daylife.com. Is it an ok source? 76.235.205.44 (talk) 14:34, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * If you don't get a response right away, the best thing to do is to wait for one rather than re-posting several times. –Juliancolton <sup style="color:#666660;">Tropical <sup style="color:#666660;">Cyclone  14:58, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I just wanted to know if the image I typed above was appropriate; if it is, I wanted to know if it could be put in the main article. It's a damage report I found on Google Images from Cuba. If it isn't, I could keep searching for a good damage report until I do find an appropriate one if necesary. We could use one of the references to get a damage report from Cuba, because I know that would be appropriate. 76.235.205.44 (talk) 15:16, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Obviously, no one is responding to my comment about this. Don't bother adding the image of the damage report I found in Cuba. 76.235.217.70 (talk) 22:21, 28 November 2008 (UTC)