Talk:Huta Pieniacka

The monument
AFAIK, it is not known who and under what circumstances destryoed the first memorial. It could be anything from KGB provocation, through some nationalists to simple vandals. Maybe Ukrainian sources/media has something about it ? All is not good covered by media in Poland and most of the Poles probably never heard about the village. Here is what I found about the 2005 monument:
 * Władze ukraińskie zgodziły się na upamiętnienie miejsca mordu Polaków w Hucie Pieniackiej. W czasie II wojny światowej w Hucie Pieniackiej i okolicznych miejscowościach 28 lutego 1944 roku oddziały SS-Galizien i UPA zamordowały ponad 1000 Polaków. Strona polska negocjowała w tej sprawie z władzami Ukrainy 10 lat. Jednak, podkreślił Andrzej Przewoźnik sekretarz Rady Pamięci Walk i Męczeństwa, porozumienie stało się możliwe po przemianach politycznych na Ukrainie. Miejsce pamięci w Hucie Pieniackiej ma być otwarte jeszcze w tym roku. W projekcie pomnika upamiętniającego mord na Polakach są: krzyż z tekstem w języku polskim i ukraińskim oraz 2 tablice z nazwiskami ofiar zbrodni. Huta Pieniacka znajduje się w województwie lwowskim. W czasie II wojny zamieszkana była w większości przez Polaków. W lutym 1944 roku Ukraińcy, oddziały SS-Galizien oraz UPA zabiły większość polskich mieszkańców, obrabowały i spaliły ich domy. Do tej pory udało się ustalić jedynie 339 nazwisk zamordowanych Polaków z Huty i okolicznych wsi.

--Lysy (talk) 22:17, 6 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Probably first monument was installed at July 2003. (На хресті, який встановили на вшанування пам"яті загиблих, українською і польською мовою написано "Пам"яті мешканців спаленого 1944 року села Гута Пеняцька. Хай спочивають у мирі")  But the second monument on 21 October  2005. Herewith first monument possible was unmounted or reconstructed. . Opening passed in accordance with ukraine-polish protocol from June 6 2005 signed in Warsaw . Data in ukrainian press about destruction of old monument has not found. Probably this mistake or was partial autodestruction. Usually events of the vandalism are broadly illuminated in the press. -- Yakudza 17:31, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Massacre of Huta Pieniacka ?
Irpen asked in his edit summary: "why isn't it named Massacre of Huta Pieniacka for consistency with other similar articles, the article is about massacre rather than the village. My response: because it is not known under this name. We are not arbitrarily inventing the names of events on wiki just for our esthetical pleasure of consistency. --Lysy (talk) 23:16, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
 * So, how is this event known then? --Irpen 23:19, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it has not a specific name. I've seen it being called "crime", "killings", "murder", probably a "massacre" as well. Where's your problem ? --Lysy (talk) 22:18, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I have another qestion: Who commited this atrocity? Martians??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.173.33.192 (talk) 00:52, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Polish historiography
I've found an interesting article (in English) on Polish historiography related to PL-UK relationships during WW2. I'm posting a link here for future reference as it might help us find/evaluate other sources. http://www.columbia.edu/cu/sipa/REGIONAL/ECE/vol7no1/wnuk.pdf --Lysy (talk) 08:26, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Koniuchy
Thanks, still I would like to know (see above) how the mass killing itself is usually called. You say it is not called massacre. What then? "Mass murder in HP"? "Destruction of HP?" You understand correctly that I am drawing a parallel with the Koniuchy article. There is nothing wrong in using "descriptive" titles when the strong terms have a limited usage. Perhaps used too, these a POV terms and as such, should be used only when they are used widely like Boston Massacre. ("Koniuchy massacre" OR "Massacre of Koniuchy" -Wikipedia) search gives 180 hits, while ("Boston Massacre") gives 179000.

A differnt example: I doubt there is an established term of a rather peculiar Polish view on the Federalism (discussed at Talk:Międzymorze). Still "Polish Federalism" is an acceptable descriptive name for the article, despite the low number of google hits. The topic is encyclopedic enough. The initially proposed by Ghirla name (Polish Imperialism) makes sense too but was rejected correctly because it is a POV term. --Irpen 20:26, 7 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not quite sure if I'm following you. I understand that you are still bothered with Koniuchy massacre for some reason and decided to bring it up here. I'm not suprised that Koniuchy massacre gets less google hits than Boston massacre. I'm also not surprised that Boston -Wikipedia gets 346,000,000 hits while Koniuchy -Wikipedia gets only 968. Why have you chosen to discuss it here, anyway ?
 * As for the Huta Pieniacka article, I think this title is very good, as the village is non-existing now, and the name is probably only used in context of the 1944 events. However feel free to change it if it offends you in any way. I had not created this article in order to offend anyone and I had hoped you'd understand it. This is also the reason why I wanted to avoid the more graphic descriptions of the crime, like people being burnt alive and many more. --Lysy (talk) 22:34, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Ukrainian historiography
In ukrainian historiography wide-spread opinion that responsibility for events in village Huta Pieniacka rests upon german punitive troop. (sorry for my english, please correct) ''Якщо в українській історіографії поширений погляд, що відповідальність за ті події лежить на німецькому каральному загоні, то польська історіографія покладає провину за злочин на галицьких добровольців, покликаних до дивізії СС-"Таличина". '' (Ihor Ilyushyn. Tragedy of Volynia 1943-1944. Kiev: Institute History of National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, 2003.) --Yakudza 17:32, 9 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Please take few minutes to look at the http://www.columbia.edu/cu/sipa/REGIONAL/ECE/vol7no1/wnuk.pdf. It's interesting in that it briefly discusses 4 different trends in Polish historiography. --Lysytalk to me 18:43, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Massacre?
An obvious question on nomenclature: why Koniuchy is a "massacre" and Huta Peniatska is not? --Ghirla | talk 12:54, 10 January 2006 (UTC)