Talk:Hyde School (Maine)

repeated edit reverts
The content of this article is repeatedly striped down to Hyde school PR by the same IP address. I am going to put back my changes. -- Vincent Van Gopher

counting at hyde
The reference to the character compass had four items yet said there were "five" points.

The pdf I just put in the citation has 5 pages.

On the last page it says "continued on page 6" Innumeracy seems out of hand at Hyde.

This seem especially bad because the school was founded by a math teacher. --Vincentvangopher 16:09, 10 July 2007 (UTC) Vincent Van Gopher


 * Can someone undo the most recent blanking? Since this is close to a content dispute, I'd be close violating the 3 revert rule if I changed it back. --Matt 18:23, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

content removal
I made my edit of removing a sentence from the "Curriculum" section for the following reasons. (1) The statement that Hyde utilizes 'corporal punishment' is highly misleading. The definition of 'corporal punishment' is "the infliction of physical injury on someone convicted of committing a crime" (from freedictionary.com) or "Corporal punishment is the deliberate infliction of pain intended to punish a person or change his/her behavior." (from wikipedia.com) If you do a google search on corporal punishment you get articles associated with violence. The wikipedia article on corporal punishment describes spanking, whipping, paddling, or other means of physical violence. None of these things has ever or is currently accepted practice at Hyde. I am guessing what the author was referring to was the practice of group workouts, or individual pushups. While a workout can be painful (I know this from running sprints with my lacrosse team today) it is an extreme stretch and I would say an incorrect assertion to call these "corporal punishment." If it were, you would have to say the same thing about every school who has a sports team that does sprints at practice for tardiness or a bad practice. The workouts that are done at Hyde outside of athletics are all approved as "reasonable and healthy." Argue all you want about whether you agree with the use of any type of physical accountability, but that's not what a wikipedia page is for and lets not call something its not for seemingly bias reasons (although that is an assumption on my part). I was going to simply change "corporal punishment" to "workouts" or "physical accountability" until I realized that that sentence didn't really make sense in that spot and that the use of "workouts" is already described in detail in another section of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Putney13 (talk • contribs) 23:37, 27 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Hyde does utilize corporal punishment and staff encourages students to be physically violent to a rule breaker. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.82.235.134 (talk) 04:09, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I am a former Hyde student. Hyde does practice corporal punishment, according to the definitions you provided. When you break the rules at Hyde, you are forced to do painful and difficult activities, by kids not more than a year or two older, and with the approval of the adults at the school. There is no regard for your physical abilities and whether or not you are fit enough to be doing these activities. That fits the definition you gave. They don't hit you or spank you, but that is not the comprehensive list of what entails corporal punishment. The facts are the facts. I agree that simply saying hyde practices corporal punishment is not the whole story, and should be explained, but that doesn't make it a lie. Yes, i am not a supporter of hyde, for many reasons, none of which are appropriate for this page, but that does not change the truth. Cpusavant (talk) 04:02, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

I am a former Hyde student. When I read the content that was added to the original entry ( the original IMHO, was added by a Hyde publicist) I found it to be written from the stand point of disgruntled former student or parent. My edit striped some of the language that could arguable called slanted. The article as it stands now, is factual. I feel the attempts to strip the article are acts of censorship on the part of Hyde supporters or Hyde employees. I find this to be unfortunate as Joe Gauld, hyde's founder. always told us to "bet on the truth" I thank the wiki expert that has locked the article and challenge those that have been stripping the article to use this comment talk page to dispute the facts of the article. Vincentvangopher 12:23, 13 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I am stripping the article of the sarcastic and negative remarks. I think it is cowardly and unfortunate someone keeps injecting their negative attitude and now it is unable to be edited on the page.  I also agree that it seems it is a disgruntled former student or parent.  I understand that people may have their differences with Hyde (as I do too) but that doesn't change the profound impact it has on people and their lives.  The way the article stands now will turn off prospective families to be a part of this amazing process and to share what I have so grateful been a part of.  I am a former student and faculty member and I am disappointed in the way this has cowardly been edited.  I think we should have someone at the school officially edit this article and leave it at that.  If you want to inject your opinions, do so on another page. 208.254.30.129 13:20, 13 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I suggest you check out wikipedia's stance on personal attacks, and refrain from calling people cowards. I also suggest that you think about how civil it is to simply remove someone else's work, repeatedly, without commenting on why.


 * Also, I disagree with "I think we should have someone at the school officially edit this article". It would come off as advertising. Check out wikipedia's stance on neutrality for an understanding.


 * I asked for the temporary protection on the page as I couldn't get anonymous editors to calm down and actually discuss what they were removing, and why, even with a plea. Now that you are here discussing it, what, exactly, do you object to?


 * I am not affiliated with Hyde at all. I don't have an agenda, other than trying to make the article better. I can't see the content being sarcastic, but I also don't necessarily see it as notable and verifiable, something that's hard to work on when people keep removing content. --Matt 13:54, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I believe I removed most if not all of the remarks that could be construed a negative and substituted words that hyde it self uses. For example I removed the references to "amateur" and "non-accredited" leaders of large group seminars at Hyde even though the groups are in fact lead by folks who are not psychological professionals. I used the hyde phrase "peer culture" to replace a more pejorative description of "Brothers Keeper." The article may in fact "turn off prospective families" but the content and purpose of this entry should dispassionately and rationally describe Hyde School. If people are "turned off" by that then so be it. "Bet on the Truth" "The Truth will set you free" Vincentvangopher 15:27, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I read the defs for notable and verifiable. I think this article may need to be linked to support the material presented:  Vincentvangopher 11:08, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I see they are at it again. Again I say, if the content is inaccurate correct it don't remove it. Vincentvangopher 15:10, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Eh, last edit was on August 2. Nothing major. --Matt 15:30, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

 looks like content removal. BTW could the Hoover institute article be considered as reference to the assertions in this article? Vincentvangopher 16:54, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That was 2 weeks ago... I can't get too worked up over it. Can you link to what you want to use as a reference? --Matt 17:38, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Because an experience from Hyde is so personal, it really cannot be conveyed by anyone who hasn't really experienced the school. That by itself gets rid of any form of neutrality. As it stands, the article is factual and relatively neutral, albeit not well-written, but it does not give an outsider a legitimate chance to understand the school. For this article to be accurate to what Hyde stands for, it can only show exactly what the Hyde principles state, a section for the ethics, one for the words and principles. The only thing that should give context to this article should be Hyde literature, Joe Gauld's Hyde: Preperation For Life. -Alex 13/04/08

It seems to me there is total focus on all the positive views of hyde, and no discussion of the controversy surrounding the school. I am a former hyde student, and am still in touch with many friends from hyde. None of us are particularly fond of our time there. there has also been a great deal of controversy surrounding some of the faculty, both allegations of abuse and their inability to handle the students issues maturely. Teachers at hyde are not licensed teachers (for the most part - they don't need one to teach there), they are not trained in any psychological techniques (yet they offer psychological advice on anything, including to teens who are severely depressed), and some are not much older than the students (one of my teachers was 25 when i was a senior) It needs to be stated somewhere that hyde is not always the shiny happy place it is portrayed to be in the article. There's a difference between neutrality and ignorance. I am not editing the article as i am too biased to do it right. But someone needs to note in there that there is controversy surrounding the school, its personnel, its founder, and its methods and message.Cpusavant (talk) 04:02, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

I am replying (years late) to say that I have re-added the school's historic use of corporal punishment, with a citation in which the school founder confirms its use and the school's philosophical belief in it. If that has changed, we should absolutely include a citation confirming corporal punishment isn't in use anymore (has the school publicly stated that?). But we cannot hide it from the school's history, especially since the founder gave speeches around the country promoting corporal punishment's use and his own use of it. Beginning (talk) 20:22, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

history?
I'm confused by the tense change in the History section. The first sentence seems to be the only statement about the school's history, as it's the only sentence in that paragraph written in the past tense. Everything that follows seems to refer to the present, and maybe should be moved to another section. TJLink 02:24, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

The tense change reflect that fact that only those sentences are History. There are some interesting point in the schools history. The trajectory of Hyde and Joe Gauld from a scrappy start up in the mid sixties, marginally successful school in the seventies and early 80's, the removal of Joe Gauld, the near bankruptcy of the school, the return of Gauld and the expansion to two campuses and the founding of charter schools would make an interesting read. The History, however would have to be written from original research.

Vincentvangopher 16:51, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I added some "original research" from school meetings in the pit where Joe told us about the 3 times he heard the voice. It'll probably be gone tomorrow. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.192.38.102 (talk) 05:04, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

An open letter to the Hyde P.R. department
Please stop editing this page to be an advertisement for Hyde. We can strike a balance between disparagement and blatant proselytism. So: begone. (I'm probably wasting my type. What Hyde marketing goon/HAPA parent would know what a talk page is?) Djadvance (talk) 02:33, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Unsourced promo content
I found this article to be full of unsourced promotional content, some copied directly from here hereand here. I've cut it back significantly in keeping with WP:EL, WP:PROSE, WP:COATRACK, WP:SOAPBOX and WP:COPYVIO.-- — Keithbob •  Talk  • 19:30, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Self-promotional and poorly sourced
This page is almost entirely comprised of material draw directly from the school's web page. I believe it should be heavily edited with proper citations or removed from the main space. Coffee312 (talk) 23:03, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

Major revisions
Since it appears this page has something of a contentious history, and I am a neutral party, I wanted to post a message to be transparent about all of the changes and expansion I've done today.

1) I've removed most of the promotional language. It was clear that a lot of information was pulled straight from the school website, sometimes with SmartQuotes still intact. I've also de-emphasized the 60 Minutes section, since it doesn't appear to have been as important as the article made it out to be, and because some of the info from the school was demonstrably false (for example, expansion talk began in the 1970s, not after the segment aired).

2) I've made it clearer that the school's emphasis is on students with behavioral and emotional challenges. It strikes me as odd that we didn't say that, since basically every profile I've found on the school stresses that, and the founder and leaders were very clear about that being the mission and target demographic. Press coverage as recently as three years ago confirms, so regardless of whether the school website explicitly states it, we need to acknowledge that truth (which certainly isn't anything shameful).

3) I've included a long, heavily-cited paragraph about discipline. Again, basically all non-sports press coverage is weighed towards discussing the disciplinary methods used, and the founder was very proud of it in his interviews. It's key to the whole story of the institution; it doesn't seen like something to hide. I've included a few examples of discipline methods cited by the founder, teachers, and students, spanning three decades. I've also included a line showing that there are differing perspectives -- some students have bad things to say, others have good, and there's no consensus.

I am hoping that by citing the daylights out of things, there will be no question about intentions or bias, and that we can agree to keep what's been added. Beginning (talk) 19:57, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Weak Sources for Assertions
"specializes in teaching character development to students with histories of emotional and behavioral challenges." The sources cited do not openly state that the students have histories of "emotional and behavioral challenges." Source 3 talks of "adjustment problems," source 4 talks of "students no one has been able to reach before" and only one girl who had been a truant, source 5 talks of "troubles," source 6 describes "boys and girls who struggle unsuccessfully with traditional academic programs but explicitly says that "not all...had behavior problems," and source 7 says, "Most of our students have had problems before coming to us. Maybe they were not doing well academically, maybe they were doing okay academically, but were lifeless, spiritless."

One idea for a change: "specializes in teaching character and leadership to a variety of students who have not flourished in traditional academic program for a variety of reasons, sometimes academic and sometimes behavioral." The same sources could be kept. Smaugfires (talk) 23:32, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Another issue: Most of the sources that refer to the student body are from the 70s & 80s. 40-50 years later, is this still true? I'll look for source sthat may be more current. Smaugfires (talk) 14:06, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

I made the above change, and added a new citation. I will continue to search for more recent sources. I also changed the description of the site. It is more relevant that it is the former estate of a Bath Iron Works family member. If people feel it should be added, I can add information about the Pine Tree Society--the institution for disabled children that occupied the site between the Hyde family and the school. Smaugfires (talk) 20:26, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

I removed an assertion saying the school used a method used by the Hitler Youth. It misrepresented what the source implied. I removed the materiel on Alex Tichelman. The way that it was included seemed to me to cause "guilt by association." Many institutions have students and members who go on to break the law or even to commit murder. The institutions rarely CAUSE this. I removed this ""It was the first school to be founded on character development.. There is no citation. Smaugfires (talk) 16:22, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Request edit

 * Information to be added or removed: "Larry's wife remains employed by Hyde School to this day
 * Explanation of issue: A quick look at Hyde's website does not show her on the faculty. Linkedin shows her as having been employed elsewhere for 1 year & 9 months.
 * References supporting change: https://www.hyde.edu/about/hyde-school/faculty-staff-directory/  https://www.linkedin.com/in/donna-dubinsky-32709923

Rewriting the "Educational Model" Section
Most of the sources refer to the school as it was quite a long time ago. Is it still the same? I have no sources for this outside of the school's website, but it seems fair to rewrite this in a way that signals when these descriptions applied.

Weakly Sourced Assertion?
I have temporarily removed the material below. The source (from what I can tell) is an anonymous chat thread. If I find reputable sources that refer to this, it (or a version of it) will be reinstated

Controversies Hyde is frequently criticized for its liberal and pervasive usage of Attack Therapy, an outdated theory based on repeated humiliation and praise of children to modify behavior. This type of therapy has been repeatedly proven to cause lasting psychological damage to the participant. Licensed psychologists are not allowed to use this form of therapy in Maine. Some students have reported nightmares persisting years after receiving Attack Therapy at Hyde.MAE (talk) 18:26, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

Allowed Sources
A user keeps deleting sources they claimed initially were attack sources and then said they were a blog. First, as below, the strugglingteen.com page is a news source and therefore can be cited. Next, blogs are not necessarily disallowed here. These sources therefore should not be deleted. This person may have a conflict of interest and be connected to the Hyde School. In 1995, StrugglingTeens.com went online as the original website for information about the many schools and programs available for troubled teens. The news and articles listed within this site provide an invaluable resource for both parents and professionals, as well as anyone interested in helping troubled teens find successful paths to adulthood.

With a combination of training and 20+ years of experience, our educational consultants provide balanced news, information, and provide professional help for parents of struggling and troubled teens helping families find programs, services and schools for teens and at risk youth.

Farr4h2004 (talk) 02:10, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Poorly Sourced Assertions
"In 2002, a former female student filed a lawsuit against Hyde, alleging that the school knowingly tolerated and encouraged a pattern of sexual misconduct directed against her and other female students by a male faulty member, over a long period of time. The girl alleged further that the staff member initiated a "role-playing" incident with her in the course of which he insisted upon having full body contact with her, over her objection, while making lewd and inappropriate comments to her which included the phrase "fucking pussy". She also said that the staff member instructed a dance routine and required her to inappropriately dance with him. Hyde settled the lawsuit within one year of the girl filing the suit.

"

This inflammatory assertion cited inaccessible documents. There is no way to know if this is what the documents cited actually say. Smaugfires (talk) 18:45, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Change to Reflect What the Source Says
The original sentence focused on WHY Gauld founded the school. I changed the sentence to reflect what the source asserts to be the founding intention. There is a section below that describes the character of the student body the school ended up serving. Smaugfires (talk) 17:47, 4 October 2022 (UTC)