Talk:Hydra effect/Archive 1

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This article has been marked with the refimprove and notable templates, but no reason is given. There are 4 references, one of them is to the Harvard National Security Journal. The references include, 3 separate disciplines, 1 peer reviewed journal, 1 non peer reviewed but reputable science magazine. I'm having a little bit of trouble understanding the markings. If the markings are not clarified, I'm going to leave them for a week before removing them. BFG (talk) 08:19, 25 June 2015 (UTC)


 * I didn't add those templates, but there's a couple of issues that immediately jump out to me. In the second sentence, torrent sites are used as the first example of the phenomena, but no citations are given for that. There's then a separate bullet 'list' with a single example, however the given source doesn't mention anything about the Hydra effect. It also doesn't seem applicable anyway, since a single site was taken down and a single site replaced it. Frankly this topic doesn't really seem substantial enough to warrant its own page. Perhaps it would be better served existing as a sentence or two blurb within the Lernaean Hydra page, where the connection to the mythology is immediately clear. dim h u e  talk 23:20, 25 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks for giving me some real reasons. I'm sorry I didn't see that User:TheRedPenOfDoom actually removed two of the references in his edit. They clearly showed the usage in the torrent setting. Clearly there are other examples of the effect for other sites, I could name a lot, but I couldn't find references for them, and thus haven't added them. It was my intention to elaborate on the article. BFG (talk) 23:30, 25 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Ah, I didn't realize some was edited out. However I understand why User:TheRedPenOfDoom removed those references. One is a personal blog, which generally aren't reliable sources. TorrentFreak is more of a gray area, but I recommend a more reliable one. I added a Wired article that discusses the Hydra effect regarding the Pirate Bay, but added it in the lead. I also removed the examples section, since the single example is not applicable. If you wish to add more examples, I recommend including more than just digital piracy ones, since the term is more broad than that. I still think the topic would be better served as a short section in the main Hydra article, but if you're still planning on beefing up this article then perhaps my judgment is premature. dim h u e  talk 00:14, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The requirements for a stand alone Wikipedia article is that there is substantial coverage about the subject . These sources are not substantial coverage about the hydra effect - they are merely utilizing it as a colorful turn of phrase, hence the need for more reliable sources to establish the notability of the subject. --  TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  00:40, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Still not sure how a subject that is covered in a peer reviewed journal can not be considered substantial coverage. ̃BFG (talk) 16:37, 4 July 2015 (UTC)


 * I think your idea of merging this with Lernaean Hydra seems like a good idea. BFG (talk) 16:35, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Some help with sources
The phenomenon of the increase in population size that is caused by higher mortality was called "the hydra effect" by P A Abrams in his 2005 paper, The effect of adaptive change in the prey on the dynamics of an exploited predator population (Canadian Journal of Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences, 2005, 62(4): 758-766, 10.1139/f05-051). The name was chosen "in honour of the mythological creature that grew two new heads for every one that was removed."

This phenomenon has been discussed elsewhere. In The hydra effect in predator–prey models (Journal of Mathematical Biology January 2012, Volume 64, Issue 1-2, pp 341-360) Michael Sieber and Frank M. Hilker propose what they refer to as "a rigorous definition of the hydra effect in population models." This is important in demonstrating that they are not merely waxing a colourful turn of phrase, but are employing the term as a moniker for a well defined scientific concept.

As population models are studied as part of the field of mathematics, we should expect to find references to the term outside the general area of biology. At the 2013 International Conference on Difference Equations and Applications, Eduardo Liz presented the talk "Chaos control in discrete population models". According to the abstract, the main aim for the talk was to show how different control strategies lead to interesting dynamical phenomena such as sudden collapses, essential extinction, bubbling, and the hydra effect. It is interesting that it is assumed the reader (presumably a mathematician) understands what Liz means by the term 'hydra effect'.

Sorry these are all pretty academic but I hope that helps. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Djonesuk (talk • contribs) 01:59, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, it does. but it leads to a complete reframing of the article and a lead sentence something like "Within biological modeling, the hydra effect is when an increase in mortality rates of a species leads to an increase in its population. The hydra effect has not been found in either laboratory tests or natural systems."  


 * At least I agree that it would be a good idea tochange the emphasize of the article. Leading with the biological effect, and adding other effects as other examples of use. BFG (talk) 16:39, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Until others have noted its appearance elsewhere we need to keep our personal expectations out of the article -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  02:34, 26 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, it should be made clear that the hydra effect is an effect found within the models, the mathematical equations used to represent real-world populations, not (so far as we know)in the populations themselves. c.f Butterfly_effect. Djonesuk (talk) 07:36, 26 June 2015 (UTC)