Talk:Hyperloop/Archive 2

Alpha this and alpha that
There is no such thing as an "alpha level design". That is to say, "alpha level" is a buzz phrase employed by Musk and his cronies to make his idea sound trendier. This is not a common phrase in use by ordinary people or even designers. Words such as "concept" are far more appropriate. Moreover, there is a difference between a concept and a design. A concept is more like an idea on paper, perhaps with a few a sketches and nothing really thought through or worked out in any detail. A "design" is something more than a mere concept, employing dimensions, calculations and various forms of specification, even at the "alpha level". An "alpha-level concept" (now sporting a hyphen) is even more of a misnomer as there are no 'levels' of concepts; there is simply the initial idea - the concept - and then subsequent designs. A "proposal" is something that comes at the end of the design process, so "the alpha proposal" is also meaningless. And then we talk about the "alpha route"!

Can you see the problem here? This shouldn't be difficult to understand, it's simple English. I think some editors have been swept so far off their feet by Elon Musk that they've forgot how to write prose. I'm not going to revert again because I can't be arsed any more. I'm just going to take the page off my Watchlist and leave it to you crazy kids to edit. You can even put little cartoons in the margins and stuff. Have fun!  nagual  design   00:42, 13 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Chill man. The cycle is supposed to be WP:BRD (be bold, revert, discuss). Not be bold, revert, be bold, revert, ..., be bold, revert, spit dummy on talk page and leave.


 * In my experience in various engineering disciplines, an alpha release is a release that is half baked, has pieces missing or poorly implemented but at least works in some small way. It's meant to give a feel to the customer so that the customer can know that work is progress and if that work is in the right direction. The customer has the chance to say "great, please continue, or this bit needs to be done in a different way". Similarly, a beta release is closer to the final version - not quite there yet but lets the customer give feedback.


 * So, when Musk says it is an alpha level design he's merely saying that here's some ideas that aren't fully fleshed out yet but allows others to make recommendations on the basic design. However, I get your point that the average reader may not know what this means, so something closer to mainstream English would be more appropriate.  Stepho  talk  03:48, 13 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Actually I have attempted to discuss this in the past. Evidently it fell on deaf ears. In my experience as a designer I have never come across the phrase "alpha level design", nor does Google lead to any examples of the phrase in use. The only similar phrase in use (correct me if I'm mistaken) is the term "alpha version" or "alpha release", which refers to incomplete software releases. And the original concept and quite a bit of coding must take place before anything can be released. Of course I can surmise what it means as most of us have heard of "beta versions" of software (and we all use computers, right?) However, Musk's use of the phrase is similar to the use of "2.0" (invariably pronounced "two point oh") to describe anything new that you want the media to lap up, or describing something as being like something similar on steroids. It's all just hype. A drawing of a monkey does not constitute an "alpha level zoo" no matter how you spin it. In fact the only thing new and unique about this whole concept is the name Hyperloop and the phrase "alpha level design". Anyway, like I said, I'm outta here. I'm only leaving this message to embolden the next editor to come along who realizes that this article is full of guff.  nagual  design  


 * As far as I can tell, per the section heading on this section of the Talk page (" Alpha this and alpha that "), this discussion is about the appropriateness of the term "alpha" or "alpha-level" with respect to describing the particular instance of the hyperloop concept as it was articulated by Musk and a set of other engineers in August 2013. So I'll leave comment on your other assertions for elsewhere, should you decide to discuss other aspects of the article more generally, or should you try to support your vague allegations of this article being "full of guff."


 * Re "alpha-level" terminology. It is not the job of Wikipedia to assess whether any particular designer (you, User:Nagualdesign) or any general practice as to designs typically seen are familiar with the concept of "alpha level".  It is sufficient for this article, about this particular technology, to have reliably sourced citations that support the statements made.  In this case, Musk et al did, in fact, refer to their white paper as an alpha-level design.  As I read that, they were merely saying it was more than a lightweight white paper—they had, after all, run some design numbers and some prelim work on the economics of the conceptual project if built from LA to SF—but it was certainly not any sort of a complete, ready-to-build design.


 * Moreover, as time has gone on, the Wikipedia Hyperloop article has emerged to be about much more than merely the original concept that Musk et al wrote about, when they released it to the broader world and engineering community. Given that, Wikipedia needs some way to discuss "Hyperloop" more broadly, as various ideas and variations move away from the original concept as articulated in the alpha-level design document.  If Wikipedia does not use the descriptor "alpha-level" to describe that original, lightly fleshed-out, design concept, what specific idea for an appropriate descriptive adjective do you have that would clarify for our readers that there is, today, clearly more than a single "Hyperloop" concept floating around?  Cheers.  N2e (talk) 23:32, 16 November 2015 (UTC)


 * And now, two plus months later after the discussion User:Nagualdesign, User:Stepho-wrs, and I had here in November 2015, it is even more clear that this article is about much more than just the narrow/specific early design doc that Musk/SpaceX/Tesla engineers put out in summer 2013. I've started an entirely new section to discuss that (article scope), below.  Should you feel differently, this is a great opportunity to suggest your own take on the matter.  Cheers.  N2e (talk) 02:53, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

New references from IEEE Spectrum
Hi, Just read a hyperloop article in IEEE Spectrum, This publication is by engineers for engineers, so less hype than usual.

Possibly some new info in these, or at least 3 references to add.

Newest feb 2016: http://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/transportation/alternative-transportation/mit-team-tops-hyperloop-competition

new dec 2015: http://spectrum.ieee.org/transportation/mass-transit/elon-musks-hyperloop-proposal-gains-momentum

older 2013  : http://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/transportation/mass-transit/elon-musks-tubular-vision

Salbayeng (talk) 03:28, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

Category High Speed Rail?
Imho this project is only related to hsr insofar as one alleged purpose is to create fear uncertainty and doubt with regards to the California High Speed Rail proposal... Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:23, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

under pod competition
A Design Weekend was held at Texas A&M University January 29–30, 2016, for all invited entrants.[54] Engineers from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology were named the winners of the competition. Finishing second was Delft University of Technology from the Netherlands, followed by the University of Wisconsin–Madison, Virginia Tech, and the University of California, Irvine.[8][55] While the MIT team took best overall, Delft University won the Pod Innovation Award.[56] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 13eccole (talk • contribs) 15:29, 24 February 2016 (UTC)


 * ✅ There's already a full article on that, as indicated in the one section of this article. That article is Hyperloop pod competition.  Details on awards, etc., logically fit there, not here. Cheers.  N2e (talk) 18:37, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

Additions for Theory and Operations
As crazy as it sounds, if the hyperloop concept were not to work on Earth, Elon Musk believes that Mars should be a backup location. In order to do this, he suggests to use thermonuclear bombs to transform the planet. This will create an atmosphere and terrain more suitable for human life. For the hyperloop concept to work on Earth, low-pressure tubes are required to decrease air resistance. If this were to be built on Mars, no tubes would be necessary because Mars has one percent of the air pressure here on Earth.

Bconsolino (talk) 15:51, 24 February 2016 (UTC)


 * This is interesting, but in the scheme of the article, does it really fit? Also, where are you getting this information? You need to cite where you found this. Also the first part, "As crazy as it sounds," may not be the most fitting for the article. Try leaving this part off. Nancekelton (talk) 16:11, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * To the others using this page, Bconsolino and I are in a class assignment, so any pointers for either of us would be greatly appreciated! Nancekelton (talk) 16:11, 24 February 2016 (UTC)


 * This is the end of what is now the intro to Theory and Operations, "The Hyperloop resembles a vactrain system but operates at approximately one millibar (100 Pa) of pressure.[24] According to Musk, Hyperloop would be useful on Mars; no tubes would be needed because Mars' atmosphere has about 1% the density of the Earth's atmosphere.[10][25][26]"


 * My additions would continue this sentence.


 * Bconsolino (talk) 16:17, 24 February 2016 (UTC)


 * No, I don't think human meta-engineering of the atmosphere etc. of Mars fits in this article. Moreover, that is highly speculative and is based on talk show banter, not a "suggestion" by Musk.  N2e (talk) 18:42, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

Problems with the tone and NPOV of the article
The article does not clearly say that closely related transportation systems have been proposed before, and it does not say, what is the novelty of Hyperloop. High-speed transportation in a low-pressure tube has been proposed before, and there was a system proposed in Switzerland long time ago that used maglev. So is the only novelty in the Hyperloop concept that the pods float on an air-cushion? Is there some new innovation here? Now the article reads as if Elon Musk has made an invention, although it does clearly state what that invention is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rainaldus (talk • contribs) 08:46, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

Unfinished sentence in intro
"In addition, a subscale pod design competition on a very short, 1 mile (1.6 km), test track in Nevada."

Does anyone know how this sentence was meant to be finished? Myoglobin (talk) 22:40, 13 May 2016 (UTC)


 * I changed it to "In addition, a subscale pod design competition on a very short, 1 mile (1.6 km), test track was built in Nevada – the first tests of the scale model occurred in May 2016."  Stepho  talk 23:16, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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Bad reference links
The two first reference links (http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4808:um44dh.2.5 and http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4808:um44dh.2.6) are not permalinks.

They lead to a page saying "This search session has expired. Please start a search session again by clicking on the TRADEMARK icon, if you wish to continue."

Not sure where to get a permalink from that terrible website.

Maybe we should replace them by this? https://trademarks.justia.com/860/27/hyperloop-86027442.html

Hector J (talk) 11:28, 20 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Agreed.  Stepho  talk 12:55, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

Popular culture
Babylon 5 portrayed some sort of tube-transportation-system on Mars... http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-mURSOdIbpVQ/VMOqQO6-6kI/AAAAAAAAAtc/THk5k2XMsWM/s1600/Mars%2Bin%2BBabylon%2B5_4.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.50.182.6 (talk) 00:22, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Reference errors
I thought I would bring to someone's attention that the last three items of the reference list has an error. It needs to be fixed. 165.230.224.204 (talk) 15:12, 19 April 2017 (UTC)


 * . They were references that were no longer being used.  Stepho  talk 02:08, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Lede
The lede is six paragraphs. Shouldn't some of that be moved to History? Rhadow (talk) 22:33, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

Diameter
I have been told that the diameter is 3m6. which is the correct diameter?

http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2015/10/23/hyperloop-le-futur-tube-des-transports_4795531_3234.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.193.104.227 (talk) 19:34, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

There is no standard diameter for a Hyperloop tube. While today most railroads have a standard gauge, there are exceptions, even in the US. To wit: BART. SpaceX has defined the de facto test tube size, but there is no indication what size a production tube might be. Rhadow (talk) 12:44, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Risks section
has added the following 'Human factors considerations' section: "The low-pressure tube would be breached in certain rare circumstances. Such circumstances might include structural failure due to land slide, seal failure, terrorist attack or natural disaster. It has been claimed that rapid re-pressurisation of the tube and that debris carried with it would put nearby pods at high risk of destruction, and may require re-pressurisation of the entire loop, putting it out of action for long periods. The exact risks and safety mechanisms that would be deployed in such an event were not discussed in Elon Musk's White Paper, and so have been the subject public doubts about the project ."

I have no problem with a criticism section. My main problem with the above is that it is unsupported except for a YouTube video by a crank. Get some industry experts in a professional reporting media and we've got something worth listening to. This is covered by WP:PROVEIT.

Also, such things as terrorist attack and natural disaster could be equally applied to normal trains. I haven't seen a train article that says what happens if a terrorist blows up a section of track and waits for a high speed passenger to come. Seal failure due to age and poor maintenance (ie likely scenarios) woudl be a more appropriate topic to cover.  Stepho  talk 01:40, 28 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Yes, there's no issue with having a Criticisms or Risks section, but that source is completely unusable. Beyond being unreliable, he gets so much wrong its silly. — Huntster (t @ c) 02:41, 28 July 2016 (UTC)


 * The thing is: The failure of one bus, train, car or airplane does not automatically cause a cascade of failures of other buses, trains, cars or airplanes along the same route. At the proposed 30 second headway, one capsule coming to a rapid standstill would not allow the next capsule to brake in time and keep people in it alive before slamming into the next one. You would need a deceleration higher than humans can survive. And the problem of rapid re-pressurization is indeed unique to the Hyperloop and poses similar challenges. While a Youtube video might not be the best source for this, the criticism certainly is valid and may have already been raised in more quotable sources. Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:59, 28 July 2016 (UTC)


 * The thing is: one bus, train, car or airplane can cause a cascade of failures. A car or bus can fail on the freeway (eg front wheel falls off) and crash into other cars or have others crash into it. We see trains derail on one track and then have a train going in the opposite direction on the other track hit it. A part fell off a DC10 and caused the crash of a Concorde. I could list these types of accidents for hours. High tech, fast speed and lots of passengers has always been a risky business. I'm sure Hyperloops will have some form a failure in the future but that the risk will be no worse than what we have now for other modes of transport. So, risk of failure is not the issue here.


 * The real issue is having professional opinion on modes of failure and those opinions being in reliable media (ie not an opinion piece in the New York Times and definitely not Joe Random in his own video on YouTube).  Stepho  talk 04:40, 29 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Thing is, the destruction of one airport, or one vehicle, usually doesn't shut down the entire transportation system, since there are alternative roads or airports for the independent vehicle, now you might say, "Trains have this same vulnerability". But yet, if a Train carriage slips off the tracks, people can escape from the Train cars easily once they have come to a halt, whereas a Hyperloop bogie would have to contend with a vacuum sealed tube system and very intermittent emergency exits, which would obviously create a huge logistical challenge for both emergency responders and evacuation procedures, if there was also a tube failure, it would likely be massive due to the vacuum pressures involved.


 * Therefore, if there were to be a catastrophic vacuum failure, there would be massive fatalities due to the pressure wave generated from the tube failure rupturing the Hyperloop bogies, i can't imagine what that situation would be like for terrorists. Even excluding those problems, due to there only being one station, what if someone had say a heart attack? Or was violently sick on the bogie? They wouldn't have any easily reachable first-aid kits, defibrillators, washrooms or areas to perform CPR.


 * I just think this article is way too positive on the outline of the Hyperloop and many media outlets just simply have got their heads in the clouds on this project, i think this article needs to be grounded a bit more in reality and the reality of the situation, even though this youtube is a minor youtuber, he has gone to university and (i think) has gotten a degree in either Physics or Chemistry, since he has videos where he works in a nuclear reactor facility, i just think we shouldn't dismiss citizen science so quickly or easily. On your other point about op-eds by publications like the NYT, the writers often don't have credentials in Physics or complete unbiased understanding of situation, because many columnists simply disregard the problems with this project, which i highly think to be unscientific. --RuleTheWiki (talk) 03:35, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Never mind the fact that a recent estimate of the cost to build the Hyperloop would round out to be $100 billion USD. --RuleTheWiki (talk) 04:35, 30 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Let's do the cost one first. It has a decent reference, so no problem of you want to add it to the article. But don't use both the '$' and the 'D' because they both represent 'dollar'.


 * The destruction of one vehicle can stop an entire transport system - or least a decent size chunk of it. An airplane crash at an airport stops the entire airport - especially if the plane hit the control tower. A car/bus crash on the freeway during rush hour can cause grid lock for hours afterwards. A derailed train can take that track out of commissioned for days.


 * Your other point about passengers not being able to exit in the case of an accident (as opposed to a train accident) is unknowable until we know more about the capsule. If the tube was ruptured and the capsule stopped then it is quite possible for the capsule design to have an escape hatch at the rear. Some of the capsules shown so far have oxygen supplies so that passengers can wait for rescue. Some also have a battery and small wheel motor so that the capsule can trundle slowly home (assuming it can avoid the tube hole, possibly going backwards).


 * Heart attacks, etc: same deal if it happened on a long distance bus - sometimes life sucks.


 * You haven't shown decent references that the Hyperloop is inherently more dangerous than most other high speed forms of transport. If the Hyperloop has an especially risky basis to it then it is likely that someone with decent credentials has done an article in a respectable journal. A self-publisher YouTube video (even from a university graduate) doesn't cut it - see WP:SELFPUBLISHED.


 * If the NYT has an opinion piece and reports something simple like the date a milestone was realised then I am happy to accept that. If the same writer starts reporting about physics then I will want to see some better credentials. Does that writer normally cover technology subjects? What is the writers technological background? Where did he get his information from?  Stepho  talk 08:59, 30 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Ok, i'll acknowledge that if SpaceX (the company the owns the Hyperloop) haven't released detailed materiel on what the Hyperloop or its bogies will be constructed upon, then then it is fair to argue that we cannot pass judgement on the strength and the ability of the Bogies & Tube to be damaged.


 * However, your assumption that if one plane crashed into an Air Traffic Control tower, subsequently shutting down the entire airport, is nonsensical, as the Aircraft still have sensors on them that relay their location to other aircraft in the area, not withstanding the fact that the pilot can either keep the Aircraft in a holding pattern, or can divert to another Airport, thus negating the fact of the destruction. Cars on a highway can still get off at different exits if a single crash blocks the road, it also generally doesn't cause the entire system to stop moving as would be the case with the Hyperloop.


 * Sorry if i also meant escape hatches on the capsule, that's not what i was implying, i was trying to say that on the actual vacuum tube itself, there is a startling absence of regular emergency evacuation points along the tube, if there are any planned, this makes my previous case stand true, if people are seriously injured then first-responders wouldn't be able to reach them inside the tube, or they wouldn't be able to last out the resources that they have inside the Bogies and would dehydrate etc. Also the second proposition of mine that you said wouldn't need to be worried about was the lack of Defibralltors or space to operate them in the Hyperloop, while concepts differ about how the interior of the Bogie will be designed, if the individual seat proposition is to be selected, then they would have a problem with the ability to resuscitate and revive passengers, making it like a literal death trap, compounding the problem is that there isn't enough free space for people to either use a vomit bag etc.


 * Due to this, i suspect the article has to inject a bit of doubt into it, as it seems relatively optimistic and biased about the project at hand, which i think isn't a very good idea. --RuleTheWiki (talk) 09:15, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

---


 * I note that provisions have been added from my talk discussion and that is welcomed, the only issue now is the issue of the vulnerability of the system due to different shocks, like economic (ticket prices, economic slowdown affecting regularity etc) political, (i.e. terrorism or the California state government) and systemic (explosion of one of the bogies causing tube rupture, emergency evacuation affecting all other cars). These situations would not affect a normal road, train or airway system, due the multiple options for diversion and resilience of the said networks. Therefore it should stand to reason that these issues be supported in the article. Also another reference for the Hyperloop vulnerabilities. Not to mention the fact that this mode of transport brings the impracticality of space transport down on land. --RuleTheWiki (talk) 09:09, 31 August 2016 (UTC)


 * WP:VERIFY says that any claim made in an article requires supporting references from reliable, published sources. The YouTube video is WP:SELFPUBLISHED - so it doesn't count. The Daily Caller reference is froma journalist who watched that exact same video - so it doesn't count either. So far you have no reliable references to back up your claims.
 * Without supporting references I have 2 choices. If I think that there is a reasonable chance that the claim is true then I can mark it with a tag and hope that somebody finds a supporting reference in the near future. Or if I think that there is a reasonable chance that the claim is false then I can just delete it. You have repeatedly said that a little bit of thought shows it to be true but every time I put thought into it I find your claims fall over.
 * You claim that in case of a failure the entire system fails and that this is somehow unique. Yet exactly the same thing happens when a train derails. You haven't defined what you mean by "system". I have assumed "system" means a single route, similar to a train track. To make a concrete example, lets assume you had a number of Hyperloop tracks leaving San Fran, one towards Seattle, one towards Dallas and one towards Mexico city. Also assume the Dallas line has further spurs that go off to other cities (but not physically part of the San Fran-Dallas line itself). If the Seattle line failed then your claim says the entire system fails, including Dallas, Mexico City and beyond. Obviously this is not true. Which is exactly like a train being derailed - it takes down one route, not the entire system.
 * Similar for airports. The air crash at Dubai airport a few weeks ago shutdown the airport for half a day and caused considerable trouble for a significant amount of air travellers between Europe, Asia and Africa as flights were delayed, turned back or diverted across half the globe (Dubai is a major hub for entering and leaving Europe). So your claim that airway systems are robust against single failures has been shown to be false by practical example.
 * Similar for roads. I personally have been in traffic jams that lasted hours in multiple countries (Australia, Sweden, China) caused by a single accident on a major highway during rush hour.
 * You claim that access to defibrillators is not possible. Wouldn't this be the same as having a heart attack in a Cessna in flight? Or on a long distance bus. Not unique at all. Not being able to stand hasn't outlawed Cessnas and a lack of defibrillators a long way from hospitals hasn't outlawed long distance buses or outlawed living outside of cities. And I am certain that they can design a defibrillator kit that can be used in seated conditions.
 * I could similarly go through the other claims made in the video and show that either the claims are so much rubbish or are not unique to the Hyperloop. But in the end it comes down to one thing - you must back up your claims with references from reliable, published sources.  Stepho  talk 22:50, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
 * You're not the one who gets to decide facts though, you can't just delete viable criticism of the concept of the Hyperloop. To address your claims, the same thing doesn't happen when a train derails, as there are connections that can be made to different rail lines. Also, the fact that you claim there "will be a number of Hyperloop tracks" isn't even factored into the white paper, you're the one throwing out hypotheticals without them even being announced by the company yet. Thats my point, the fact that you're talking about multiple Hyperloop Tracks is what astounds me, they haven't even planned that yet!


 * As for the claim about the Dubai Airport crash, they had other airports to go to, like in Saudi Arabia, Qatar or Oman, sure it might have caused massive delays but it didn't shut down the entire system! The thing is, that planes have the freedom to move around, not confined to a single space, unlike the Hyperloop which is restricted in more ways than one, owing to the closed-loop system and the space-like conditions of the track. As for roads, i mean come on at least you have a chance to divert the traffic, or go off onto an interchange, its not like being confined in a vacuum sealed transport system.
 * As for a Cessna, you're comparing Apples and Oranges, one is a major public transport initiative (The Hyperloop), the other is personal-like aircraft, at least people aren't confined in a long-distance bus as they are in the Hyperloop, which is so tightly packed together that you wouldn't be able to do CPR or use a defibrillator. All of those factors you've listed have some degree of self-control or a quick emergency plan, unlike the Hyperloop, which has no reliable emergency exit plan, or easily accessible escape hatches.
 * From my perspective, you're the one making the baseless claims about the Hyperloop, not me. --RuleTheWiki (talk) 07:53, 1 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Nonetheless, I added his video to the Criticism section and used language that put his video's content and his statements down as "claims" (as should this entire article) rather than phrasing them on the page as factual, so as to prevent the page from appearing or being biased. Bitsdotlies  talk  08:05, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

May I interrupt the argument for a moment with a voice of reason?

Talks pages exist merely to discuss improving the article. They are not about the thinking and analysis of particular editors about why this or that design approach—or missing factor in the design approach—may or may not work, or be safe, or be compliant with this or that governmental regulatory body. That all will (and is getting) hashed out in the real world, in real stuff that is built, and in news and book sources, or in scholarly sources, etc. Talk pages are also not to be about "the editor"; rather, they are and should be about the content of the encyclopedia. So neither the fact that, nor allegation that, editor n believes xyz is relevant to this Talk page.

So let's make it about improving the article, with reliable sources with qualitycitations and not the other stuff.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming and discussion. Cheers. N2e (talk) 12:56, 1 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Agreed, WP:RS should rule this discussion.  Stepho  talk 22:19, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Here. I found a source for my claims, by a reptuable person, w/credentials. http://www.mercurynews.com/troy-wolverton/ci_23856460/wolverton-elon-musks-hyperloop-hype-ignores-practical-problems — Preceding unsigned comment added by RuleTheWiki (talk • contribs) 13:57, 3 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Yes, that reference is reasonable. He quotes industry experts and doesn't make wild claims.  Stepho  talk 05:11, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

Dr. Mason went way outside of his field of expertise and shows a dearth of basic physics and engineering concepts. It's been thoroughly debunked by others. His portion should be removed, or references to the debunkings included. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSPi1JFx4_-Gz0Fm0qq2KUz4c22UbZCco 71.88.248.125 (talk) 20:19, 30 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Yep, as detailed in the long discussion above, a self made YouTube video by someone who is not an engineer and not a recognised expert in the field is not a reliable source, as per WP:RS. Let's delete it yet again.  Stepho  talk 14:14, 31 December 2016 (UTC)


 * There is no need to argue over it, try to start one or self-advertise, just remove the incriminating links and discuss it in the Talk page. Not that it matters but that's not much of a "debunking" by your own definition; it appears the video's OP possesses no degree in the sciences at all, and the person he collaborated with has yet to even complete his school to earn a bachelor's. Bitsdotlies  talk  05:01, 1 January 2017 (UTC)


 * If I interpret you correctly, then we can just completely drop Mason's video and the video debunking him. Good, I'm happy with that.  Stepho  talk 04:49, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

-- Gaming the WP System I think we agree that hyperloop claims outstrip current technology. For them to make their way into the article, a company executive says them to a reporter who describes them as claims. We discount the tech rags. We accept Fortune or NYT. The claims remain fanciful, but they get published. On the other hand, we have to discount Mason for the reasons described already. To get a credible and notable source, a professional would have to be paid to disprove a claim. He or she would have to be interviewed, and the reference find its way into the article. Who's going to pay to disprove a claim? What's the payoff for a journalist to claim hyperloop is vaporware? The system advantages the commercially motivated narrative. When the next (almost) credible source publishes something that sounds skeptical, I suggest we be more accepting. Rhadow (talk) 18:34, 23 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Hello Stepho-wrs The article -- and the talk page for that matter -- is a place to discuss the article and sources. We don't do engineering here. The speed of sound has nothing to do with sea level pressure. It is dependent on temperature. Let's wait for a reliable secondary source to talk about whether hyperloop can exceed the speed of sound and the tube tolerate the sonic boom, not speculate. Rhadow (talk) 00:21, 5 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Um, not sure your point here. The article said that the Hyperloop would not produced sonic booms because it only ran at 760mph. The supplied Bizweek reference mentioned nothing about sonic booms, nor about the speed of the Hyperloop. Therefore I removed the unsupported claim about sonic booms. Where have I added sonic boom speculation to the article?  Stepho  talk 01:04, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Hyperloop companies
I suggest readers would be better served by a more cynical approach to press accounts of commercial competitors in the Hyperloop arena. A critical read of press accounts including speeds, costs, routes, and development schedules will indicate the speculative nature of most assertions. Hyper Chariot was deleted quickly and reasonably. Arrivo was deleted, reasonably, for being TOOSOON. Now it's back, apparently with a contract in hand. Zeleros may also be TOOSOON. Hyperloop will soon reach the 100K standard for long articles. We need to start thinking about what doesn't belong. Rhadow (talk) 13:09, 27 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Hyperloop pod competition already has its own article, so that section can be reduced to a single paragraph. Many of the entries in the 'Hyperloop companies' section have full articles, so those can also be reduced to single paragraphs. In fact, the whole 'Hyperloop companies' section can be split into its own article with just a single paragraph left here. The 'Proposed routes' section is basically a list of 'company X has proposed route Y', so might be better handled in the new 'Hyperloop companies' article with just the original proposal left in the 'Initial design concept' section. That should cut it down to about half without losing any information.  Stepho  talk 12:31, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

Maintaining the status as a concept
The majority of the Hyperloop project is still conceptual. The Hyperloop One test in earlier this year demonstrated only the propulsion system, and did not address the feasibility (or the lack thereof) of the vacuum chamber, the pods, or the other functions and engineering features of the project. I suggest that the page's text and phrasing be made to emphasize that it is as of yet a concept, and there has been no physical demonstration that it will or will not work. I made a few changes to the text to start putting this change into action in the introduction/summary section, as well as added a link to the Hyperloop Alpha in my recent edit/undo. Bitsdotlies talk  04:47, 1 January 2017 (UTC)


 * From the article "Hyperloop is a proposed mode of passenger and freight transportation". The word 'proposed' covers what you are trying to say and says it in the second meaningful word of the article. I changed your offsite jump (usually a surprise to the reader) to a reference. I also changed a few other things to make them clearer and more within the way that things are normally laid out on WP. I hope I have kept the spirit of what you wanted.


 * I did however remove the claim about what to do for emergency passenger evacuation. The given reference did not cover that. We can add it back in but only if we have a reference from a reliable source (see WP:RS).


 * The Mercury reference asks what happens during a power outage. The alpha doc already covered this on page 53. I left this as a comment rather than go into a point by point refutation of the Mercury article.  Stepho  talk 04:43, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Given the current language, would it be preferable to change the tense from "... is a proposed mode of transport... that propels..." to "... that would propel..."? I think they're both technically correct, though I think the latter one probably sounds better. Scoundr3l (talk) 23:30, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Routes
The recent creation of the section Hyperloop is a speculative stretch, whether or not these routes are described in the media. There is already a section Hyperloop. No point having two sections with the same content. For that matter, the proposal that any route is shortlisted is promotional. There is no way we are closer than ten years to seeing a shovel in the ground. Hyperloop is a concept, not a technology that can be shortlisted for any site. Rhadow (talk) 14:43, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I actually agree with this.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:21, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

The section Shortlisted Routes is duplicated in Hyperloop One. I announce my intent to delete this section, insofar as it is fully covered elsewhere.Rhadow (talk) 17:44, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I reorganized the Proposed Routes section. As the article gets longer, each of the competitors should get at most a single paragraph, with details in the articles belonging to each company. As editors we need to be more critical in distinguishing possibilities, business cases, non-binding letters of intent, and contracts. We should watch out for weasel words including "in process to sign a Letter of Intent," and similar constructions. Rhadow (talk) 13:20, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

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Section 2.4: Mars
"According to Musk, Hyperloop would be useful on Mars as no tubes would be needed because Mars' atmosphere is about 1% the density of the Earth's at sea level. For the Hyperloop concept to work on Earth, low-pressure tubes are required to reduce air resistance. However, if they were to be built on Mars, the lower air resistance would allow a Hyperloop to be created with no tube, only a track."

Should this part of the article remain? Hyperloop without the tubes is in the end not particularly different from a Maglev, which already exists on Earth. Sarrotrkux (talk)


 * Not quite. The original paper on hyperloop relied on aerodynamic forces to raise the pod, not magnetic levitation. Hence it wouldn't work in a vacuum on the Moon but is likely to work in a rarefied atmosphere like on Mars. It would still need some form of rail or guideline and propulsion and power systems similar to the Earth bound system.  Stepho  talk 09:22, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

The Hyperloop as electric car long distance carrier
I was wondering if anyone knows af any group discussion about transforming the hyperloop concept into a way to travel with an electric car on long distances. It seems to me a good idea especially because range is the main obstacle to electric car success. How to effectively accomplishing it I dont know, I have many ideas from car rental at stations to street capable mini pods. The low pressure environment simplifies things in one way and complicates them in another, security concerns are obvious. Anyway, just checking, thanks, Bepi sorryifiamwrong (talk) 19:19, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

How can the top speed be lower than the average speed?
In the intro it says:

"The paper conceived of a hyperloop system that would propel passengers along the 350-mile (560 km) route at an average speed of around 800 mph (1,300 km/h), with a top speed of 760 mph (1,200 km/h)"

How can the top speed be lower than the average speed?

Yogarine (talk) 13:41, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I removed the 800mph claim. It's not mentioned in the source.

Why is it called hyperloop?
I can't see anything about it that is a loop. It's just a single tube running between A and B. If a second tube went back to A again, you could call it a loop, but I haven't seen any version of the concept that looks like that. Is Musk picking up a name from some previous version of this vacuum idea that was called a loop? UBJ 43X (talk) 15:36, 18 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Musk named it and he likes quirky, grandiose names.  Stepho  talk 19:32, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Missouri Hyperloop
I've created an article for the proposed Missouri Hyperloop, perhaps the most developed hyperloop proposal in the United States. However, I have little specialized knowledge about the technology itself. If anyone can enhance the article please do. Grey Wanderer (talk) 23:18, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

Capitalization
I've noticed that there is no consistency in the article with whether or not the word "hyperloop" is capitalized. Is there an industry standard? On a grammatical level does it function like say "Linux" (since it is open tech) or like, say, "solid state drive"? Justin Grove (talk) 12:32, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Possibly because there is no longer any (official) consistency over what constitutes the system. It no longers bears any resemblance to the distinguishing features that Musk elaborated (air-suspension, turbine-propelled), and has devolved, or evolved, for the most part into the concept that it was intended originally to displace: vacuum-tunnel maglev. It's a no-name orphan like the abandoned kitten my brother brought home one day which never got any name that stuck beyond 'cat'. JohndanR (talk) 16:51, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Expired references

 * "Abu Dhabi explores Hyperloop link with Al Ain, potentially transforming cruise tourism in the city" (https://cruisearabiaonline.com/middle-east-cruise-news/2016/12/12/Abu-Dhabi-explores-Hyperloop-link-with-Al-Ain--potentially-transforming-cruise-tourism-in-city) --Sinucep (talk) 15:52, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Mars
Suggest either expanding or removing the section about potential hyperloop on Mars. It currently describes the potential to construct a hyperloop on Mars without a tube. But the low-pressure tube is the sine qua non of hyperloop; without it you've just got a maglev train. If there is really something "hyperloopy" about the envisioned Mars train, it needs to be identified, otherwise this section should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.71.185.176 (talk) 16:38, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

History
Why In the Year 2889, the Jule Verne book is not even mentionned ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.153.88.139 (talk) 13:55, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Changed and moved corporation section
Plenty of information about the actions of various hyperloop corporations were extensively documented already in the article under the relevant development sections. There was also the issue of advertising language in the section, as well as extensive details about the history of those companies. This article should remain on the topic of hyperloop, not on corporate promotion or corporate history unrelated to the development of hyperloop. As such, the corporate section was changed into a wikitable and moved the section down the page. I mistakenly marked the move as a minor edit - sorry for any confusion. Mewnst (talk) 07:50, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

In case it matters, I have no idea whether hyperloop should be capitalized as Hyperloop in the page or not. Both are used frequently. My personal preference, if it matters, is keeping it lowercased just as "train" and "maglev" and "vactrain" are all lowercased. Mewnst (talk) 14:29, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 22:45, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Edit war re historical concepts
Historically, there are various concepts: Following the recent edit warring, the article currently refers to the earlier concepts by anachronistic names. It also claims that the hyperloop is extremely closely based on the 1799 concept, although the close basis is not mentioned in the cited sources and hence contravenes WP:NPOV. Input from uninvolved editors would be appreciated. Rosbif73 (talk) 15:32, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
 * George Medhurst's patent for a method of transporting goods and mail at high speed through an iron tube (1799)
 * Brunel's "atmospheric railway" (1844)
 * Goddard's "vactrain" (1904)


 * Be aware that while the Hyperloop has much in common with those (a tube with much of the air removed), it has a fundamental difference. There is an economical and technological limit to how much air can be removed beyond which is not practical/economical to go but in general, the more air removed, the better - a pure vacuum being theoretically ideal. But Hyperloop (in the original proposal) requires a certain amount of air to remain. It is needed for fan propulsion and needed for airfoils to lift the vehicle off the floor. Removing more air would make it perform worse and in a pure vacuum it would not work at all.  Stepho  talk 22:32, 30 June 2021 (UTC)


 * I think the position above (by Rosbif73) is a bit contradictory. On the one hand the objection is that the hyperloop concept proposed by Elon Musk is noticeably distinct from earlier versions of the idea, yet at the same time there's an objection that using terms like "vactrain" is anachronistic because these should all be termed "hyperloops" (if I've understood the point correctly). In essence we seem to be simultaneously arguing that Musk's version is distinct yet that it should also be retrospectively used to rename earlier versions of the idea. That's resulted in the article becoming a bit of a muddle with the history section almost entirely about Musk's idea and the rest of the history of the idea being added as "related projects" (a term that only really makes sense if they're "related to Musk's version" but which makes little sense if this article is just about the broader idea). Either "hyperloop" is a broad catch all term for an idea that has existed since 1799 (in which case Musk's version is just one of many versions, beyond his coining of the name) or it's specifically a modern idea first proposed by Musk that is related to earlier ideas that have different names (vactrains, etc.) It can't be both at the same time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:6616:CE00:CC32:D393:2FF1:7A39 (talk) 08:11, 26 January 2022 (UTC)


 * There is a very simple way to separate them, stop arguing in circles on the degree of vacuum involved and focus on propulsion instead.

Since the topic is 'hyperloop', and since, by as defined, a hyperloop is NOT powered by atmospheric pressure, you can simply strip all the historical 'atmospheric propulsion' based systems out and just focus on the Goddard and later systems where low pressure is only used to reduce drag, and not as a propulsion source. To emphasise: Atmospheric propulsion is a sufficiently distinct type of transportation that it should be in it's own (linked) article and not polluting the hyperloop one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.100.41.92 (talk) 00:43, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

California high speed rail conspiracy theory
Lately, a lot of people have been repeating the claim that Hyperloop was proposed to derail the California High Speed Rail project or is responsible for stalling the project. This is a very tenuous claim. The CA HSR project had been in the works since the early 1990s and was already moving at a snail’s pace for about 20 years before Musk ever mentioned Hyperloop.

Also, people are forgetting that Musk wasn’t the world’s richest man in 2012, as Tesla was still a very small company at that time.

Furthermore, the Hyperloop idea was never going to stall the HSR project, because no civil engineers were going to stop work on a proven technology (trains) to replace it with a fanciful idea exists in idea only. Marshallj25 (talk) 06:25, 20 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Howdy! I decided to look into this more. The claim that Musk sabotaged California High Speed Rail through Hyperloop publicity was popularized by the technology journalist and Musk critic Paris Marx, who had a popular tweet. In an interview with Gizmodo, Marx says the following:
 * So the Hyperloop, for example, he admitted to his biographer that the reason the Hyperloop was announced—even though he had no intention of pursuing it—was to try to disrupt the California high-speed rail project and to get in the way of that actually succeeding.
 * The specific Musk biographer here is the journalist Ashlee Vance, who wrote the 2015 biography Elon Musk: Tesla, SpaceX, and the Quest for a Fantastic Future. The 11th chapter of the biography states thus:
 * At the time, it seemed that Musk had dished out the Hyperloop proposal just to make the public and legislators rethink the high-speed train. He didn’t actually intend to build the thing. It was more that he wanted to show people that more creative ideas were out there for things that might actually solve problems and push the state forward. With any luck, the high-speed rail would be canceled. Musk said as much to me during a series of e-mails and phone calls leading up to the announcement. “Down the road, I might fund or advise on a Hyperloop project, but right now I can’t take my eye off the ball at either SpaceX or Tesla,” he wrote.
 * In a Jalopnik piece, Vance was directly asked about whether or not Marx's interpretation was accurate. Vance's response was thus:
 * he called Marx’s conclusion “vaguely accurate but a disingenuous take on the situation.” From Vance’s point of view, Musk’s initial announcements on Hyperloop were “more of a reaction to how underwhelming California’s high-speed rail [proposal] was.”
 * In short, Musk had no love for public transportation and did desire for the California High Speed Rail to fail (which is typical of car manufacturers), but the widespread interest in Hyperloop as a sexier transport alternative was not intended. That was the work of the over-excited technology press.
 * I hoped this digging helped! Mewnst (talk) 03:05, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Crap, I forgot to link the Jalopnik piece checking in with Vance. Here it is. Mewnst (talk) 03:07, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Remove maintenance template?
Maintenance templates are not meant to be in articles permanently.

As I just made a number of changes, I probably should not be the one to remove the template. But does the template still belong, or has the article come along enough to not warrant it? -- Rei (talk) 11:59, 15 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Which template are you referring to Rei? I have just started some copyediting and cleanup to eliminate a lot of the top-of-article orange banners, and started a new Talk section to discuss it earlier today.  (see bottom of this Talk page) N2e (talk) 18:59, 6 January 2024 (UTC)