Talk:Hyperspace

History of the concept
The current organization of the article is kind of useless, as it gives no sense of the history or development of the concept, just giving a bunch of different uses of it in apparently random order. Wouldn't it make sense to (at least) put all these usages in chronological order, if not to actually try to determine what the original usage of the term is? john k 23:17, 30 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I think Asimov first popularized the idea. I agree that this article is sadly lacking when it comes to a history of the concept.  Onionhound 20:54, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Please don't remove real world references.
I just undid a revision that removed real world references within this fictional topic. The reason I did so was because the article has problems with being written largely in an "in-universe" (fictional) style. Reducing those complaints (tags), I feel, means providing as many out-of-universe (real world) references as we can. The editor's argument was "redundant". While I can agree the text is "a bit excessive" (not quite redundant), it's there for a good reason, I believe. &mdash;Aladdin Sane (talk) 15:25, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

This is a Mess
Why are all these diferent fictional universes listed here ? This topic should be better organized and the specifi information moved to the correct location in the series/universe tree. &mdash; Written by anonymous (200.198.94.130) 2006-05-30 01:55:34


 * I agree, the fictional universe info doesn't belong here. Some of the information could be used to briefly summarize the development of the concept better.  Reorganization is needed. &mdash; Written by Onionhound 2006-06-10 05:35:45


 * The Warhammer paragraph especially needs rewriting. It's a huge single paragraph. Very difficult and uninviting to read. &mdash;Bisqwit 16:53, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I tried to rework the Warhammer paragraph as best I could but it's unwieldly and needs an expert. I agree with Anon and Onionhound. Most of the info here belongs elsewhere. I don;t object to the format but perhaps it would be better to have a sentence or two, compares interesting/notable similarities/differences and link to elsewhere? Palendrom 01:30, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I tend to think of hyperspace as a sci-fi concept. Is there anything in the Warcraft universe that specifically states it is related to hyperspace, and not merely to some magical plane? If not, I say let it go! On a related issue, would now be a good time to create a hyperspace in computer and video games article to place some of these in fiction bits? Muad 05:42, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Tagged for cleanup due to spelling errors, use of first person, original "research", in-universe presentation, etc. 71.232.57.59 04:43, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Where have those tags gone? The spelling errors might have been cleaned up, but the rest of the (dare I say it...) crap remains. It's like sitting through an especially bad episode of Star Trek. CatBoris 17:22, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

The Erma Felna section is just plain wrong. Chrisweuve (talk) 11:44, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Confusion between hyperspace and subspace
Many parts of this article confuse the concepts of hyperspace (a high-dimensional space) with subspace (a lower dimensional space). Subspace, as used in science fiction such as Cordwainer Smith or presumably Star Trek, is based on a sending artifacts or messages through a spatial dimension below or under normal 3D space. Hyperspace is used to send artifacts or message through a spatial dimension above normal 3D space. These are two distinct concepts that have been conflated in this article. Either subspace concepts should be moved to a separate article or the title should be changed to indicate the article deals with a variety of fictional concepts about space time including both hyperspace and subspace. Steevithak (talk) 16:19, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Subspace (fictional) redirects to this article, but I think it is better to have these together. Keep in mind this is fictional science. See subspace and hyperspace for the actual definitions of these words. In this article these words mean what the author of a particular work intends them to mean. The parts of the article that use "subspace" are the "FreeSpace universe" section, the "Star Trek" section, the paragraph about "overdive" and the introduction to the "Other forms" section. The "FreeSpace universe" section and the "Star Trek" section only use the word "subspace" and do not mix it with hyperspace, so those are fine. The introduction to the "Other forms" section simply mentions the some authors use "subspace" for the same thing that other authors use "hyperspace". The paragraph about "overdive" is the only questionable use of the word subspace, unless Murray Leinster (the writer) used the word "subspace" to describe overdrive. The only other thing I can add is perhaps the article should be moved to "Faster-than-light travel (science fiction)" or "Faster-than-light travel in fiction". There is already an article "Interstellar travel in fiction", but it is just a list of lists. This could be merged into that. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 08:10, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Admirably, I would agree with Steevithak, however in the light of http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/treknology/warp3.htm I have since revised my opinion. This interpretation, while lexicon symmetry is poor in my opinion: if hyperspace in = to subspace, than why call anything subspace at all; everything is just hyperspace; It does appear to be the prevalence convention. This is further evidenced by:
 * https://forum.gateworld.net/threads/25303-Hyperspace-vs-Subspace?p=5006583&viewfull=1#post5006583
 * https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/3191/how-does-the-theory-of-subspace-work
 * Due to the nature of the prevailing interpretation, I believe that it may be best for this page to be filled under Alternate Spacial Dimensions in science fiction. Refiling the page would better representing the broadness of the topic the page encompass. With the refile, topics such as FTL Drive, Subspace, and Hyperspace would all be better represented within the page. Seamus M. Slack (talk) 01:56, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Giving the examples their own page
I've been looking though the examples with an eye for quality. Generally they run the gambit of ways to need improvement. That's not preternaturally great, given that the page as it exists also needs some changes to help length and writing style (removing the personal essay feel). Since both the examples and the page are in need of work, it seems like having them both together makes the page much more disorganized than could otherwise be achieved by having the pages separate. I really like the dedication that when into the example section, nor do I think it's off topic in spirit, only it makes the Hyperspace page too long. I'd really like to see the example section get the fine tuning that it needs. I think separating the two pages, Hyperspace and List of Hyperspace Depictions in Science Fiction, would help achieve a more concise reading experience.
 * List of Hyperspace Depictions in Science Fiction being it's own page would allow and  to come off of Hyperspace.
 * Then the parts of List of Hyperspace Depictions in Science Fiction could be more easily worked out on its own page.


 * Examples section was split off into it's own page. Seamus M. Slack (talk) 22:33, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Problems with specific examples
This section of Talk has been moved to Talk:List of Hyperspace Depictions in Science Fiction.

Update
Well the splitting off of a list didn't last long, but it was just a massive list of in-universe fancruft which didn't deserve to survive. However, I rather feel that the article was lacking any useful examples, which is the opposite extreme. I have inserted some significant cinematic examples to the Later depictions section, written from a MOS:REALWORLD perspective, along with citations, which give the article a little more depth. The rest of that section is still unsourced WP:OR and could safely be deleted - whoever wrote that stuff clearly has no intention of adding sources. Cnbrb (talk) 14:51, 5 January 2021 (UTC)


 * I see the split content did not survive the Articles for deletion/List of hyperspace depictions in science fiction (I agree it was 99.99% irredimable fancruft). I am now rewriting this article removing surviving unreferenced content, and adding content referenced to reliable sources like SF reference works. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 11:03, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Merge Notice
Just added a merge notice at the top. People are more likely to look under Hyperspace than Hyperdrive, ya? Davidpk212 20:31, 17 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm inclined to think the merge is good idea. With redirects, of course, so that looking up "hyperdrive" would link you to the "hyperspace" article. KarlBunker 22:34, 17 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I vote against the merge/move for now. There are currently three articles on traditional science fiction FTL drives: jump drive, warp drive, and hyperdrive. Hyperdrive is as relevant a search term as hyperspace. I agree that hyperdrive and hyperspace are related concepts but even if merged that does not mean that the term "Hyperdrive" should only go to the BBC TV series. If anything, we may need a disambiguation page. Rillian 22:58, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

If the proposal has one more vote, I'll do the business and merge it. Davidpk212 18:34, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Merging, even though it didn't get another vote. Davidpk212 16:44, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I undid the merge to continue the discussion. Two votes after just three days of discussion does not constitute a consensus. Rillian 22:58, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I think Rillian has some good points, so I'll change my vote to no merge. KarlBunker 23:34, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

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Move discussion in progress
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Done?
I am done expanding/verifying content here with the sources I have access to, and I am not sure there is much left. There is still some ORish content here, which, while correct, needs referencing or removal. Ping User:TompaDompa, User:Daranios, User:Jclemens... if no-one can find refs for the content that I tagged as citation needed, it probably needs to go? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 23:55, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Ok, many of the CN tags are quotes from primary sources. The Lensman series has been on my to-read list for decades; I doubt I'll ever actually get to it. Some of the latter ones can absolutely be cited. I'm sure I've got plenty for Babylon 5. We might want to note wormhole travel more explicitly, as that's a feature of DS9 and Farscape.  I'm not seeing anything tagged that's controversial or ridiculous enough that it needs to go, unless you're taking this to GAN sometime soon? Jclemens (talk) 00:34, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
 * @Jclemens While we can of course confirm some plot content with primary sources, this risks turning this back into the usual laundry list of "all works that mention the word hyperdrive", a bad style that is the course of so many 'in fiction' article that wer are slowly rewriting (per AfDs past and present, and also this is how this article looked ~10 years ago). As such, I tend to think that only examples mentioned in sources with analysis are relevant, although of course per IAR and consensus on talk we can ignore this if some super relevant cases arise. And you are right, nothing here is controversial or wrong, it is mostly correct and on topic - the problem is OR. See for example Earth in science fiction and Space travel in science fiction and their talk pages. For both of these topics, I and others have identified relevant themes/aspects that could be discussed further, but are simply not covered in RS (see ex. talk of Earth, my comments in the talk post at 9:31 am, 21 August 2021). It is unfortunate when we have to face the fact that our articles are obviously incomplete, and the only way to fix it on Wikipedia is OR. No good chouce, but policy wise dictates such content needs to be removed (at best, I think it can be copied to talk and kept here until sources are found...). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  08:24, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Underspace from Star Trek
I've redirectes Underspace from Star Trek here, because its a form of hyperspace. It's mentioned in the Star Trek Fact Files and the Star Trek Encylopedia. Maybe other source, that i don't have. It is therefore worth mentioning. --Mark McWire (talk) 22:19, 9 November 2021 (UTC) In addition, both compilations / books clearly count as secondary sources, no primary sources.--Mark McWire (talk) 22:20, 9 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Compilation books are not considered seconary, as they are just more official fancruft. If you can find an independent source mentioning this, we can add this term to the list of synonyms, but I don't see why we need a dedicated paragraph. This is exactly the type of content that was split into Articles for deletion/List of hyperspace depictions in science fiction and deleted subsequently (you can still see this in the history of our article here if you look at how it was ~10 years ago or so). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 22:23, 9 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Can we at least leave it like that? --Mark McWire (talk) 22:32, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
 * @Mark McWire I think this type of content is not encyclopedic and lowers the quality of articles. We should avoid extesive detail that just summarizes fiction (WP:ALLPLOT, etc.). This is why over the last few years a number of articles have been either deleted or rewritten, see for example Earth in science fiction, Near future in science fiction, Far future in science fiction, Comets in fiction, and others. The relevant rewrite is about removing content like the one you just added, and instead adding the analysis of significance/influence/reception/etc. I strongly recommend you look at the history of these articles, past and presence, and that you look at how hyperspace itself looked 10 years ago (see discussion above about how it was rewritten since). I'll also ping some editors who have been active in related discussions so they can offer us more guidance: User:TompaDompa, User:Daranios, User:Jclemens. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  09:09, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I've removed the new section and changed the redirects to Later depictions, because the terms already mentioned there. But like said in Talk:Warp drive, the warp drive itself has no connection to hyperspace. --87.176.102.228 (talk) 10:05, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I was just about to argue that at least stating the term underspace + where it comes from is a positive thing for this Wikipedia article, but thanks to the latest edits there is now an independant source for it. So that should settle that, I guess. Daranios (talk) 11:54, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I disagree. Any transformation of a work into another format is necessarily secondary, just like a film review would be. This prejudice against derivative works describing fictional elements from a popular, rather than scholarly, perspective really has no basis in policy, and I'm inclined to characterize it as just that: an unfounded prejudice., feel free to disabuse me of my impression, but the sad fact is that I've never had a complaint when writing Game of Thrones articles using summary-of-the-week posts from pop culture sites, but multiple dead-tree independent books on Stargate, Babylon 5, Farscape, etc. are derided as insufficiently scholarly to count as RS. Jclemens (talk) 17:34, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
 * @Jclemens Pop culture sites are sometimes ok, sometimes not, but they are not what we are discussing here. What we are is the Star Trek Fact Files magazine : "designed to provide information about the Star Trek universe from an "in-universe" point of view." I am sorry, but it doesn't seem reliable or in-dependent to me, plus when you look at the diff in question, this was a trivial technobabble term that appeared in a single episode (see https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Underspace ). Plus the paragraph also contains editorializing OR "There is also a counterpart to hyperspace in Star Trek [called underspace]". I stand by my original assessment that a paragraph on this is UNDUE here, and frankly, probably UNDUE anywhere on Wikipedia outside the article on that particular episode (leaving whether it's notable for another discussion). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 20:57, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

OR removed
I have removed the following paragraph, which appears more or less sound but is not properly referenced and I couldn't find good refs for it. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 11:05, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Though the concept of hyperspace did not emerge until the 20th century, along with space travel as a whole, stories of an unseen realm outside our normal world are part of earliest oral tradition. Some stories, before the development of the science fiction genre, feature space travel using a fictional existence outside what humans normally observe. For example, in Somnium (published 1634), Johannes Kepler tells of magic travel to the moon with the help of demons. Note: Somniumis mentioned in http://www.sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/space_flight

Picture request for folding space explanation
It would be nice to have such a picture, if anyone feels like drawing it? I looked for free images but didn't see anything particularly useful that and properly licenced :( Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  11:24, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I attempted to request 2 images of hyperspcae on flickr. 2001:4455:364:A800:758F:6113:6F67:3E87 (talk) 23:43, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Which ones, for the record? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 09:03, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

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