Talk:IKCO Samand

About the quality of the article
This is a biased opinion! Does Samand resembles Ford's, which ford? If any it resembles BMW Rover! Re: The car’s main flaw is said to be the driver’s view! Who is the source for that comment?

Re: The car's quality is disputed with some people being skeptical, and others loyal to the brand. This is a crap statement! Where is the fact in this statement? Of course there are always skeptical and loyal people but where is the technical expert source that questions the quality?

This is Wiki and there are rules in what you post here! Facts and proofs no rumors and chitchat!

Kiumars

This is getting worse! Guys you need to provide facts not rumors and claims!

Re: …when they supplied Peugeot 504 engines for the previous Paykan model. Not all Paykans had Peugeot engines!

What do you mean by “The design is sometimes unscientifically claimed to be more aerodynamic than the Peugeot 405 it is based on.” If you know it is unscientific and baseless what is the point in mentioning it at all? What is the point in posting rumors and gossips? You must provide sources (Test-Lab results, etc) to support your statements. Who says the design is based on Peugeot and that it is more aerodynamic! Where is the Test-Lab results?

'''If we do not adhere to these principals we better just publish a commercial weekly cars review magazine here! '''

WTF does this statement “thanks to an arrangement with that car's original manufacturer, Rootes. In a connection typical of the car industry, Rootes was eventually taken over by Peugeot.” mean?

What does this mean "It has been suggested that the former President of Iran, Mohammad Khatami, proposed this name for the car"? Suggested by who, and what significant this statement has?

I need authentic technical reference (and test-lab results where appropriate) for the following statements: 1. Some of the vehicle is based on technology from the Peugeot 405 (using the xu7jpk and xu7jp/l3 engines),

2. steering is said to outperform the 405 too.

3. The car's main flaw is said to be the driver's view

4. The car's quality is disputed

If you cannot provide authentic references to support a statement don’t put it on WIKI. Kiumars


 * Hi Kiumars, I agree with you that this article needs a lot of work. I'm interested in it because I'm interested in the original Hillman Hunter, but I don't know enough about the Peykan to add new data to the article. I've previously cleaned up the language a bit and make it more neutral, but that's about all.


 * To reply to two of your specific points: "unscientific" does not neccessarily mean "baseless", so if that statement can be justified with things like (for example) media reports showing these opinions, then it may be acceptable. Wikipedia can reflect society as well as science, so long as it's factual and not original research.


 * Finally, the thing about Peugeot and Rootes is there to explain that there is an interesting co-incidence within the story (the Peugeot connection). I think it's fair enough to point the reader towards a contemplation of the number of collaborations and mergers which go on in the car industry, since this article is about a vehicle which resulted from a relationship between companies. Maybe some "See also" links to some other similar projects (like Fiat's "world cars" and Eastern European deals, or the Morris Oxford-based Hindustan Ambassador) would be helpful. What do you think? – Kieran T  ( talk  14:19, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Kieran ,

Re: "unscientific" does not necessarily mean "baseless".

I am an engineer myslef, We are talking about a Car here, and must provide engineering reports to support any claims and comparisons. Take a look at BMW pages on the Wiki, can you see any unscientific remarks there?

Re: things like (for example) media reports showing these opinions.

In that case the URL to the source (e.g. the media report) must be added so that people can read and decide for themselves, there are lots of rubbish biased media out there!

Kieran I am sure you agree that lots of the negative remarks made about Samand here are a negative marketing campaign against Samand when more and more countries are showing interest in purchasing production lines. WIKI must not be used for this kind of campaigns. Look at other pages about other cars and see if you can find such negative and biased remarks. We are talking about an engineering product and any claims must be supported by engineering and scientific tests otherwise is baseless and biased. With regard to the history of Peugeot and Rootes, the article in its current format implies that Samand is a copy of Peugeot and that is why I insisted on providing profs. Peugeot has a project in Iran that will start production soon but it is much smaller than Samand project. Benz is about to start a production line in Iran too, so are many other car manufactureres.

Samand and Paykan are totally different products I have some information about Paykan and I will try to put them together for you but I think Paykan needs its own page and should not be mixed with Samand. There are other interesting Iranian cars too, from Jiaan to Cadillac! But the important thing about Samand is that it is 85% made in Iran and many countries have shown interest in buying production line.

You may find this forum interesting (Some photos and news but not a reliable reference like WIKI!) http://skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=334883

PS: I still stand by my objections mentioned above.

Copying in conversation from a user talk page (contains suggested course of action)
Samand

The neutrality, authenticity and accuracy of this article is strongly disputed. Provide authentic references or delete it please. Kiumars


 * Hi Kiumars. I didn't put any of the disputed facts (nor indeed anything much) into the Samand article, and I have no idea where one would find those references. You need to look at the edit history of the article to find out who added the information, then approach them. (If it looks like I added them, that's because I tidied up the use of English and removed some extreme points-of-view once before, but the original content is not mine.)


 * As for deletion, you need to nominate the article for deletion using the Articles for deletion protocol. But since the car exists, I doubt you'd succeed in persuading enough people to get a consensus for deletion. Best to just be bold and delete all the statements you're sure are false or not neutral, but leave the core facts. – Kieran T  ( talk  12:48, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Kieran, If I am not mistaken you are saying someone dumped lots of rubbish here and we are stuck with it, right? In that case as you and I seem to be the only people interested on the article let’s agree on a unbiased and informative context. OK?

PS: I found this site about Paykan (Rootes-Chrysler) you may find interesting (I bet you already seen it!). http://www.rootes-chrysler.co.uk/paykan.html Kiumars 14:55, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Sure. I'm happy to help, but I think you probably know much more about this car than I do. I suggest you go ahead, delete the rubbish, make the changes. Then, if you like, I can check the article for the Wiki-ish things like internal links. We could also request a "peer review" which is where we specifically announce that we'd like other people to come and check the article. – Kieran T  ( talk  15:08, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Kiumars and everybody,

The changes I made:

Platform: Samand uses the 405 platform. The chassis, suspension, drivetrain,... are the same. Even the wheelbase and track are the same. Note that two cars may share the same platform and have different wheelbases, but if they have the same wheelbabses, they definately have the same platform. Some even go as far as calling the Samand a facelift, which is not too off. I was one of them actualy, but after talking with some IKCO guys, I have accepted it is the same platform ;), but without almost any changes to the platform itself. A lot of cars share platforms. For example the European Ford Focus, the Mazda3, Volvo S40,... use the same platform. So do the 307 and Citroen C4. The next generation Samand will use the 307 platform.

Collaboration started with the 504: I don't have a clue. Actualy, I feel it isn't correct. But what I changed was to emphasize that the 504 drivetrain, and not just the engine, was used only in some Peykan models. I remember hearing the entire story once, but don't remember what it was :)

Also, on the CdA (drag coefficient x area) discussed here, I know for sure (straight from the horse's mouth) that the Pars and Samand have worse values. That said, even in a single model, it is usual to have a 0.02 difference between trim levels, as thing like tires and skirts affect it quite a bit. This is why the top speed of the Pars is less than the 405, whatever IKCO writes in their site. Their site is not very reliable. My memory is a bit rusty, but I think Samand had a better Cd than Pars, about the same as the 405, but more area. Not sure on this one though.

I should also mention that Peugeot is the brand. PSA is the company (PSA Peugeot Citroen). I was too lazy to clean up that.

Ahmad 22:57, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Ahmad, should I remind you that Wiki is an encyclopedia and statements like “I had it from the horses mouth” and “I remember hearing the entire story once, but don't remember what it was” and “My memory is a bit rusty”, etc have no place in here. If you write something here it must be supported by technical documents and specification comparisons, etc. I rather no to read anything at all than reading something wrong! Don’t you? Kiumars 15:29, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Kiumars, that's why I should remind you that didn't place the changes in the article. The only changes I made to the article where the ones which I was sure about, and could support it. Or it was some grammatical changes to previous stuff, to make my sentences fit in. Ahmad

Sooren not Soran
--Sina Rahmani 19:54, 12 April 2007 (UTC)Please change "Soran" to "Sooren" your spelling is not correct. This name comes from Sooren Pahlav which is Rostam in Shahnameh.

Diesel version
Is there a diesel version of any of these cars? Towel401 (talk) 09:36, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Export
The car is already being sold in Turkey...The Honorable Kermanshahi (talk) 18:18, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

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