Talk:IRT Third Avenue Line

Headway?
What does headway mean in these sentences: ''The route still mimics a subway line headway and employs articulated buses. While no night service is provided, the Bx15, a local complement of the Bx55, runs every 20 minutes, a standard subway headway for late nights.'' Sounds like some kind of railfan jargon which most people won't understand. -- RoySmith (talk) 02:08, 13 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Headway is the time between trains. I'll add a link in the text to that article. --NE2 02:16, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

History?
What happened before the IRT got it? Who built it? When ? Always electric ? DCDuring 00:07, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Manhattan Railways had all the Manhattan els by 1880. Steam power. Got that from Brian J. Cudahy (1988), Under the Sidewalks of New York rev. ed., ISBN 0828906858. He cites: Robert C. Reed (1978), The New York Elevated New York and S. Brunswick, NJ, A. S. Barnes & Co. In a footnote Cudahy also says that they hadn't electrified as of 1888. DCDuring 00:22, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Good source would seem to be James Blaine Walker's 1918 history of the subway, which starts with 1863 efforts! DCDuring 02:57, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

This was the 8 train
This should be mentioned. One question people ask is, there's a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and (until 2006) a 9 train. What was the 8 train? This was it. 64.105.124.2 20:49, 9 November 2007 (UTC)captcrisis


 * Thanks; I added a link to 8 (New York City Subway service). --NE2 00:35, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Name of article
Why is this called "IRT Third Avenue Line"? It should be called "Third Avenue El". —Preceding unsigned comment added by ScottyBerg (talk • contribs) 19:37, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The naming of this article follows the format at WP:WikiProject New York City Public Transportation's naming convention. Acps110 (talk) 19:43, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I read that page. There was no specific reference to the El lines. I had thought the El lines were commonly known as "El" lines. If you look at the Times articles and websites devoted to these lines you will find that they are almost never referred to as IRT lines. Most predated the IRT system. The exceptions would be the extensions of subway lines. --ScottyBerg (talk) 19:48, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
 * They did precede the IRT underground system, but many were leased by the IRT for operation prior to the opening of the original IRT subway. If you look at nycsubway.org in the historical maps section, the older IRT maps clearly show the distinction between the subway division and the elevated division. That distinction had a practical application too, el cars used a different type of 3rd rail and collector shoe, more like what you see currently in use in the Chicago L.


 * The Jerome Ave and White Plains Road lines had both types of third rail installed for through-running trains. Jerome Ave hosted el trains north of 161st Street coming from the IRT Ninth Avenue Line (later the Polo Grounds Shuttle) and the WPR line hosted el trains north of Gun Hill Road coming from the Third Avenue Line. The WPR line also had a connection between Third Avenue and Jackson Avenue to the Third Ave line. Acps110 (talk) 20:17, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

That's very informative, thank you, and see you know a lot about the system! I was just thinking in terms of common usage. --ScottyBerg (talk) 20:26, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

To give you an example of what I'm talking about: I have a book filled with color photos of the Third Avenue El, called "Beneath the El." You've got to get this book if you don't have it. This is just the greatest book on earth for El fans. The pictures were made in 1954, the year before the el was torn down. I don't think there is any reference to it being an IRT line in that book. --ScottyBerg (talk) 20:29, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Clarification... operated by the IRT.


 * By 1954, the IRT (subway and elevated divisions) had been purchased by the city in 1940 and the operation of the various elevated lines had been transferred to the Board of Transportation. I don't disagree that the former elevated lines were called "els." But, what about the Jerome Ave. and Sedgwick Avenue elevated (division) stations that were underground? ;-) Acps110 (talk) 21:07, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

I think there was a distinction made at the time between el-only lines and ones that burrowed underground, like Jerome Avenue. On maps from the sixties I remember there was a distinction, with the el lines looking like pencil lines while the others were solid colors.

Thanks for some very informative answers. --ScottyBerg (talk) 21:32, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Question: Some splendid images are available from archive.org. Assuming there is no barrier to uploading, is there any interest in adding to the article? --ScottyBerg (talk) 19:22, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

I added a photo from archive.org to the article. Not an easy process, getting photos into Wikipedia. --ScottyBerg (talk) 17:35, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Tone of History section
I'm a little concerned about aspects of the tone of this section, which in crucial spots take the position that the El was hastily torn down to benefit real estate interests. Now it so happens I agree with that, but I think that we need sourcing and that needs to be attributed and worded in a more balanced fashion. I won't give it an "npov tag" right now, but I wanted to raise the issue for the moment. Meanwhile I'm going to see what I can find in terms of sourcing. ScottyBerg (talk) 01:46, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Great minds think alike
Am I mistaken or does a new article on the MTA website read a lot like this article, especially a the beginning? ScottyBerg (talk) 18:33, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Rolling Stock?
Generally in any article about traction, there is at least a link for readers interested in the type of equipment that operated on it. But not here. In contrast, the Market Street Railway article on wikipedia leads off with equipment, and gives the final resting place of every car that is known to survive. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_Street_Railway_%28transit_operator%29 Please add a link to an article, or discuss equipment in at least a "stub-class" way. 50.0.36.140 (talk) 04:46, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:IRT Lexington Avenue Line which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 06:45, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Third Avenue Car Barn (image)
According to, this belonged to the Third Avenue Railway. It should be removed from this article. Right? Vzeebjtf (talk) 20:41, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Done. Vzeebjtf (talk) 20:18, 5 July 2022 (UTC)