Talk:I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings/Archive 1

older entries
Is there such a thing as an "autobiographical novel" if so I would like to see a link to the def. in Wikipedia. If not, and I am guessing there is not, I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings would best be described as an autobiography. A novel is a work of fiction. If this is not a work of fiction it is not a novel.

here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobiographical_novel

Someone reverted an edit that linked this page to the def. of autobiographical novel. Why? Either it is an autobiographical novel (in which case the link should be to autobiographical novel and not biography) or it is not. If it is NOT an autobiographical novel the article should not describe it as such. I am simply being logical.

Clarification please
May someone please clarify the second plot summary?
 * Mr. Edward Donleavy, a kind of school superintendent, is the graduation speaker. He tells of the much better opportunities given to the white school in town, and then mentions that some graduates of the black school have managed to become athletes. Mr. Donleavy seems to say that the best black boys can do is to become athletes, and doesn't even mention the girls. Maya is livid, as are most of the people in the; it crushes the celebratory spirit of the ceremony, and reminds them that their lives are already set out for them.

Should a noun follow the bold, italized article? Thanks. --Mayfare 01:25, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Second plot summary
Why the need for two plot summaries? The second in particular seems overly long. Suggest amalgamation. If conflicting views present, these can both be detailed or dealt with in a separate section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 40.252.72.102 (talk) 12:46, 5 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree, the second plot summary is unneccessary. The first one has some problems and could use some editing, but it's adequate.  124.66.16.176 made the addition back in June, and only two edits were made from that IP address.  IMO, the second one should be deleted. --Figureskatingfan 06:06, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Explanation for deletions
I deleted the book listed under "Reference" because it looks like it was a cleverly-hidden attempt at spam. User 71.77.1.32, on 5 August 2007 added it to several articles about African American literature, probably to advertise the book, since it was the only edits under that username, and all on the same day. Click here for proof.

I also deleted the "Excerpts" section of this talk page because it was created by someone with a clear agenda, and inapproprate in this setting. --Figureskatingfan 05:43, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I Think That
I think that this is a wonderful story n that i can sort of relate 2 it n sum ways although im conceited n i never though i was ugly n was never raped evrytym i hear this story i can picture myself b n that passion n i can jus amagine how i will feel i wud probably feel the same way u felt

P.S. This was an is the best book i ever read. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.78.59.63 (talk) 04:29, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I think this is an amazing biography/autobiography. THis opened my eyes about racisim and alot more about how African Americans lived. I definitely recommend to read this.

Autobiography vs. autobiographical novel
I have changed the genre of this book from autobiographical novel to autobiography because I think there can be a good case made for categorizing it that way. The logic behind it is coming, in some of the additions I intend to make to this article, from the research I've done on MA, her writing style, and influences. I've also changed the category to illustrate the change. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 05:28, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Rape
I'm wondering if this article should have a section, under Themes, about MA's rape. The problem is, however, that the only source I was able to find was from the Lupton book. I hesitate adding the information, since this article is already heavily dependant upon the book. For the time being, I'll keep an eye out for more sources about it. However, my initial thoughts is to put the info in the Identity section. If anyone wants to help, please feel free. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 16:40, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

So I think I came up with an adequate solution to the above problem. As it turned out as I was writing the paragraph about rape, I only used one quote from the Lupton book. As promised, it was placed in the Identity section.

So the next few things to do with this article is to expand the lead and Plot summary section, do a preliminary copyedit myself, and then submit it to LoCE before trying for FA again. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 05:21, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Characters section
I added a new section, "Characters", which I tested out on one of my sandboxes, and then cut-and-pasted into the article. As of today, there's more work to be done on the section, so it's very much a draft at this point. The rest of the article needs to be copyedited, and then it should be ready for another try at FA. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 19:56, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

FAC #2 suggestions
I nominated this article for its second FAC on July 2. It became apparent, by the reviewers' comments, that some more work needs to be done. I suspect that the nom will close before I have the time this article's improvement requires, so as I said on the FAC page, I'm cut-and-pasting the issues here so that I can devote the time and effort they deserve. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 19:08, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm now confident that I've addressed this issue. I made sure that all the information in the lead is also in the body of the article by doing the following: I state more directly that King's assassination inspired the book, I deleted the part about it happening on her birthday (it really isn't that important, and it's mentioned on her bio page), and added info about the rest of her autobiographies. I also expanded the section about Judy Feiffer, stating that it was the party guests' childhood reminisces that inspired her to call Loomis. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 05:17, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose. You've made a great start with this article, but it is not ready for FA status yet.  It's been over a decade since I read the book, so I don't remember a lot of the details, but I do remember the emotional impact it had on me.  I suspect there must be reams of information written about it, but I felt like the article didn't go into enough depth to really make someone who hasn't read the book understand why it is important or why it is so powerful.  I realize that is a bit vague, and here are some concrete examples of issues I see.
 * The Background and title section does not say that King's assassination inspired Angelou to write this book. The lead does say this, however, and the two need to be reconciled.  There is also additional information in the lead that is not in the body (King assassinated on her birthday).  Is there any more information about what part of the conversation made Judy Feiffer believe that Angelou needed to write the book?
 * Plot summary issues:
 * In some places it assumes more knowledge than most readers will have. For example, it is not well explained that Maya's real name is Marguerite.
 * But--the very first line of the summary reads: "I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings follows Marguerite's (called "My" or "Maya" by her brother) life from the age of three to sixteen and the struggles she experiences in the racist South." How much more clear does it need to be?
 * The section may need better organization. I don't remember the story well enough to help with this.
 * Okay, here the deal about that. As the article states later on, Angelou doesn't even present the events chronologically.  The summary, which follows the original editor's format with lots of expansion and copyediting, attempts to be chronological.  It's a challenge, but I believe that its current arrangement hits the book's main events.  Perhaps when I submit it for a peer review, this will be better addressed. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 05:38, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, the characters section should really not describe events that are not at least alluded to in the plot summary. Much of this section is written in a very in-universe style.  There ought to be some information about the character beyond just a plot summary, or else that character should not be listed separately.
 * I think that I have addressed this issue quite elegantly, if I must brag. Of course, I stole it directly from To Kill a Mockingbird--I was so pleased to see that it not only recently passed to FA, it was on the main page this very week.  It's an excellent model that I intend to liberally steal from. ;) Anyway, I deleted the Characters section of this article and created a new article, List of characters in I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 06:11, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The Critical reception section seems a little short. I would suspect that with such a groundbreaking book there might be more information.
 * Is there any information on which events in the book are made up?
 * Much of the article needs a copyedit. There are run-on sentences and other long and clunky sentences.
 * The Themes section needs some attention paid to the organization. For example, in the as autobiography section, paragraph one says Scholar Joanne M. Braxton sees Caged Bird as "representative of autobiographies written by black women in the post-civil rights era"., but this is actually explained in more detail in paragraph 2.
 * As previously stated, I moved the paragraph about autobiography to the Style section. I then, following this suggestion, moved the sentences around.
 * "The challenge for much of African-American literature is that its authors have had to confirm its status as literature before it could accomplish its political goals," -- what political goals was this book trying to accomplish? This sentence appears at the beginning of a paragraph about literary goals, which doesn't make sense.
 * I cut the phrase, "before it could accomplish its political goals", since that's not the point of the sentence anyway. The point is that African American literature has had to confirm its status, and that's clear.  Perhaps I need to add more content to include what I've deleted.
 * The Themes section has a lot of quotations. I think most if not all of these should be marked in the text with the name of which scholar is being quoted.  This is done to some extent, but probably doesn't go far enough.
 * Most of the time the article uses "Angelou", but occasionally is refers to her as "Maya".
 * Please notice that "Angelou" is used when referring to the author, and "Maya" is used when referring to herself as a child. The confusion lies with the fact that the book's an autobiography with fictional aspects, and that even in the relating of events that happened to her, Angelou as the narrator puts herself outside of the action while using the personal pronoun.  I know I'm not explaining it correctly, so perhaps I need to include criticism that does a better job of it in the article. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 20:43, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Cliffs Notes as a source? Please, no.  There must be so many other sources to get good literary criticism for this book.
 * I will fix that at a later time, since it looks like I'm going to have to revamp that entire section and expand it.
 * Is poetryfoundation.org a reliable source?
 * I believe that it is. It's the online version of Poetry Magazine.
 * There ought to be at least a brief mention of the movie that was based on the book.
 * Will do, although it was just a TV movie and not very well received.
 * Just added this content this evening. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 03:29, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Karanacs (talk) 03:05, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for all your helpful, useful feedback. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 05:44, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Oppose While this article has improved dramatically since the last FAC, there are still a few sections that need to be researched and expanded. Here are my suggestions:
 * Comment
 * I would remove the character list, especially since it repeats much of what is in the plot summary and the "Themes" section.
 * As stated above, solved by creation of a new article.
 * In her 1999 essay, "I Know Why the Caged Bird Cannot Read", author Francine Prose criticized Caged Bird as "manipulative melodrama"[19] and "overrated" - This single piece of criticism is awkward - surely there has been other criticism?
 * Yes, I know. This is something to research and add/expand to article.
 * The "Critical reception" section needs to be expanded. There is much more to say on this front. Considering it was a bestseller and nominated for a book award, there must have been lots of contemporary reviews. It has since become a classic and is often assigned to undergraduates, so there is a lot of scholarly reception as well.


 * There needs to be some sort of "Influence" section that explains the book's effect on other literature, other writers, etc. As Moni3 mentions, it was part of a specific movement in the 1970s among black American writers, but the reader doesn't really come away from the article understanding this larger literary context.


 * It was already mentioned in the last FAC that CliffsNotes is not a reliable source. That needs to be replaced.


 * The last paragraph of the "Style" section seems to belong in the "Background and title" section.
 * Already addressed by moving section.


 * Once major revisions have been made, I would suggest you find good copyeditor as I saw some grammar mistakes (e.g. verbs that didn't match nouns) and other small problems.

I hope these suggestions are helpful. Awadewit (talk) 14:10, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * They are, thanks. I failed to comment on the items that will be addressed with further research.  It's my intention to submit this for a peer review before the new nom. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 05:18, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Progress
It's taken some time, but I wanted to record the progress I've made on this article since its last failed FAC. I don't think it's ready to be re-nominated, at least not until I'm able to do some more research. As I've stated previously, my goal is to get this to FA before the 40th anniversary of the publication of the book.


 * Critical reception section. This is probably the weakest section of the entire article.  I'm waiting for a book to arrive from Amazon to address it; it needs more research.  Notice that I've kept, for now, the James Baldwin quote.  More than one reviewer has demanded that it be removed because of its dubious source: Cliff Notes.  I agree, but I'd like to be able to find its original source, or at least something comparable.  I also need to find additional negative criticisms, as recommended.


 * Copyedit. Yes, this needs one.  I intend, on this recommendation, to submit it for a peer review before re-nominating it.


 * "Made-up events". I believe that I've addressed this concern in a few places.  Of course, Angelou hasn't told an interviewer what parts of her book are "fictional", or what characters are composites.


 * Influence section. Added/created as per recommendations.  I think it now satisfies the concerns raised.  I may be able to add more as my research continues. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 05:57, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Comments from Scartol
First of all, let me say: Kudos for all your hard work. This article is excellently documented and very well-written. Your organization is solid, and I found the writing both thorough and accessible. Nice job on all your efforts so far, for an article which certainly deserves our attention.

I've made some structural changes (pretty minor for now), which hopefully made things better. Feel free to dispute or revert any of them; I'm always open to comments or criticism of any edit I make. It's clear that you've worked hard (and continue to do so) to remedy the deficiencies noted during the most recent FAC. This is good to see, and I'm willing to help as time allows.

My vision of how to proceed is as follows: After the changes I've suggested below are implemented, nominate it for peer review. I'll ask my WikiMentor to have a look as part of that process. We wait – or solicit – one or two other reviews, then get someone to do a thorough copyedit (the more eyes we can put on it before FAC, the better). It may take a month or so, but I really believe in the theory of "measure twice, cut once" when it comes to FA-ing articles. Hopefully these steps work for you?


 * Scartol, thanks for your input. I know that it's taken me a while to get to this; I've been busy IRL, illness struck my little family in Nov., and I was focusing on other Wiki-projects.  I believe that removing yourself from an article for a short period of time is productive, since it gives you perspective and fresh eyes.  I like the changes you've made thus far, including the copyedit, the structural changes, and the images you added.  I think taking our time is good advice.  I'd prefer that this article pass the next time it's submitted for FAC, so I'd like it to be completely ready so that it passes easily.  So yes, we'll solicit another peer review (its first was in Oct.), do another copyedit, and bring Awadewit on board. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 15:53, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Images

 * I replaced the image of Jules Feiffer with one of PL Dunbar; I feel that the poet's image is much more relevant to the first section.


 * That's fine. Dunbar's image was there at one time, but another editor didn't think it fit.  I believe that with the changes in the text, it's a better fit now.


 * All of the images were previously right-aligned. I prefer staggering images, so I put some on the left. I'm open to discussing this, so let me know if you have strong feelings about it one way or another.


 * I don't. For me, it's an aesthetic choice, so I'm okay with staggering images. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 16:04, 29 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I moved the Rape of Lucerne image up to the section on rape; this disconnects it from the mention in the text, but I think that's okay, since the reader will likely remember seeing it earlier in the piece.


 * says – and I agree – that captions should, as much as possible, provide info not found in the text. I'm not able to do that with all of the images I've added, but I think it's a good thing to strive for in this article.


 * I've seen articles both include info in the text and not in the text. I concur with the expert opinion, though, so I tried to go farther as much as I could.  Even after some research, I wasn't able to do it in every case; I'm not sure it's completely possible.


 * Again, thanks for the inclusion of some great images. My personal favorite is the image of Stamps.  Ya know, I tried to find it, but I was stumped.  Good job! --Figureskatingfan (talk) 05:45, 1 December 2008 (UTC)


 * These repairs all look good. (I suppose if we can't add unique info to captions, we just can't. Surely it won't be a hindrance at FAC.) It's not a good idea to sandwich the article text between images or quote boxes, so we may need to do some more juggling. (Now that I look at it, the image of the Rape of Lucerne probably should go back where it originally was.) I'll see what I can do. Scartol  •  Tok  19:31, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Background and title

 * The best way to approach a background section is to give us the broad strokes: What was going on in the world before she began writing? What had she been doing before she started work on the project? How did she conceive the idea? Etc. To this end, I recommend starting with a brief rundown of Angelou's professional activities before being named Northern Coordinator of the SCLC. Then move into her role in that organization and her relationship with King (briefly), which will set the reader up to understand why she was so traumatized by his assassination. (As it is, we're jumping back and forth a bit.)
 * I believe that I have accomplished this, but without the jumping around. ;) --Figureskatingfan (talk) 22:44, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The quote about it being "perhaps the most aesthetically satisfying autobiography written in the years immediately following the Civil Rights era" would be better placed in the section of "Racism" during the thematic discussion. Likewise, the quote from Opal Moore in the first paragraph should probably go in the "Style" or "Reception" section. (I would prefer "Style", since it could lead into a discussion of how Angelou writes.)
 * Done. I made these changes first, because it seemed the best to tackle this before your first point.  I agree with these suggestions.  It inspired separating two paragraphs in the Racism section into four, to make it easier to read.  I put the Moore quote in Style, since it fit perfectly as the first sentence in the final paragraph.  So much better, thanks! --Figureskatingfan (talk) 21:07, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * She reported that he "tricked" her into it by "daring" her: Does the "he" refer to Loomis or Baldwin?
 * Loomis. Fixed. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 23:23, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Could we get a few sentences on Angelou's perspective on the PL Dunbar poem? Have you come across anything she's said about why specifically that line from that poem? (If not, I have a book of interviews with her that I can search.)
 * After doing a search, including of the sources I have, I wasn't able to find anything more than she or someone else saying that the poem inspired the title of the book. Lupton talks about the image of the caged bird, but that's discussed elsewhere in the article.  I included what I could find, about Dunbar's influence on MA and her writing.  If you could look at your source, that'd be great.
 * Alas, the only interview I have which mentions it is from Tate, which you've already included. I suppose that's the best info available. Scartol  •  Tok  19:33, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Given that we already have the cover of the first edition, I don't know how much the Bantam edition (with her photo) really adds to the article. Maybe it would fit better in the Reception section, during a discussion of the many reprints it's gone through?
 * Actually, I included it in this article because it's the best free image of Dr. Angelou we have. To be honest, I don't like any of the free images we have of her.  If anyone has gone to hear her speak and can take a better photo, that would help this article and her bio.  Fortunately, though, I was able to find a photo of her reciting her poem at Clinton's inauguration, so I switched it with the photo you placed.  (It had been deleted because I wasn't able to find the webpage where I originally found it.  Hopefully, I was able to download it correctly, with the appropriate info.  If not, I'm sure I'll hear about it. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 06:45, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I seriously doubt that the cover you mention was a free image. (I imagine it's copyright-protected.) I really like the Clinton inauguration photo, and the PD info all looks right to me. (Awadewit can verify this; she's become something of an image licensing guru lately.) Scartol  •  Tok  19:33, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Plot summary
This section is generally good, but we'll need to polish the prose a bit with some transitions and whatnot once we're closer to FA land.


 * One problem I notice is that the fourth paragraph talks about her attending high school and then California Labor School. Then the fifth paragraph mentions that she enters adolescence. Is this out of order? Or do we need a different word? (Adolescence usually invokes images of high schoolers or even earlier.)


 * Thanks. This was a tough section to write and re-write.  (Its earlier versions were simply awful.)  One of its challenges is that so much occurs in the book, so deciding what to include and what not to include is difficult.  In addition, many of the events, since they follow themes, are out of order chronologically.  When we get to the point of another ce and pr, I'd like to see someone who's actually read the book recently to look it over.  I agree that it could use more polishing up.  And I changed the wording as you suggest; I believe by cutting the adolescence phrase and stating that Maya's sexual experimentation occurred when she was a senior in h.s. makes it more clear. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 06:01, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Style

 * I removed the items "setting, plot, and language" from the first sentence, since they burdened the sentence with too much detail. We can work them in elsewhere if you think it's necessary, but I think we can leave them out altogether.
 * I like how that was "fixed", since it mentions the disagreement about characterizing the book as autobiography instead of autobiographical fiction. This article originally labeled it the latter, but since most critics agree that it should be labeled an autobiography, I changed it.  Now that there's a phrase describing the comparison of MA to Eliot (see below), it works!
 * Yeah, it works great. This all flows together very smoothly. Scartol  •  Tok  01:19, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Let's have a phrase about why Lupton compares Angelou to Eliot. What makes the two books worthy of comparison?
 * Already done. See above; see previous section. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 06:16, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * There are some problems with coherence in the "Style" section. For example, this sentence: Caged Bird presents themes that are common in autobiography by black American women: the celebration of black motherhood, the criticism of racism, the importance of family, and the quest for self-sufficiency, personal dignity, and self-definition. It would fit more smoothly into the section on Themes. It's important for us to make sure that every paragraph focuses on one particular topic or set of topics. I'm trying to finesse the writing so it flows as smoothly as possible, but I expect we'll have to work on this more in the future as well.
 * I think I disagree with this. That particular sentence is there because it demonstrates how the book fits into the genre of autobiography written by African American women.  The sentence is about more than racism, anyway.  That being said, I changed the wording a bit to make it more clear.  We'll probably have to do more to ensure its coherency. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 06:26, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I think I disagree with myself up there too. I guess it didn't flow from the autobiography comments earlier, for whatever reason. It now looks fine. Scartol  •  Tok  01:19, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * We should include an example of something fictional Angelou inserts into the book.
 * I understand why you would want that, but I've never found anything about Angelou being asked to list the fictional aspects of the book. It doesn't seem to be a concern of the critics.  This article does, however, in the last few lines of the 4th paragraph of this section, quote Angelou about her method of conflating several characters into one for dramatic purposes.  I think that's enough. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 07:20, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I wonder if it would be better to say something like: "Angelou admits to creative license in some parts of her books", since that's more ambiguous. I just feel like — as a reader — either way it cries out for an example. But if we can't find any, we can't. Maybe we need to give more of the quote about "diverge from the conventional notion of autobiography as truth", in order to give more context? Scartol  •  Tok  01:19, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The think the problem with the Style section is that it didn't flow very well. For example, I talked about "truth in autobiography" in two places, so I combined them and did some restructuring.  I think it now does away with the ambiguity and is infinitely more clear.  Please look at it and tell me what you think. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 05:30, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Similarly, after "...willing to focus on the more negative aspects of her personality and choices", we should give an example.
 * I don't think there's anything well-referenced listing the above in Caged Bird. However, there's the anecdote MA tells herself in an interview about her reluctance to write about the events in Gather Together in My Name, her second autobiography.  It was included in that article, so I added it here as well.  I believe that it accomplishes what you ask. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 06:10, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's good. I'd prefer to have something from Caged Bird, but again we use what we can find. Scartol  •  Tok  01:19, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't know that the extended description of Angelou's writing process is very useful in the Style section. I think it's great to have in the article about Angelou herself, but it doesn't really fit here.
 * Hmm, I dunno about this. I think I need a second opinion. ;) Seriously, I think it does fit because MA's writing process directly relates to how she was able to write about such traumatic events.  I added some content from a BBC interview that clarifies it.  I'll leave it here for now, but if others agree with you, I'm more than happy to cut it from here. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 06:35, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, but then let's add a transition between the first part of that paragraph and the description of her writing process. Something like: "Angelou achieves this readability through a regimented writing process". Make sense? Scartol  •  Tok  01:19, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * All I did was switch that line with the Opal quote, and replaced "thorough" with your "regimented". It works better, I believe.  After doing that, though, I wonder if the Opal quote is even necessary; perhaps we should delete it.  What do you think? --Figureskatingfan (talk) 05:37, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Themes

 * ...her belief that she was ugly was "absolute". Where does "absolute" come from? I feel strongly that every quote in the article needs a source.
 * Done, thanks for catching it.


 * In some places "African-American" is hyphenated; in others it is not. You should go through and make sure it's standardized throughout.
 * I used the WP convention in the article African American, which isn't hyphenated. What's interesting, however, is when I removed the hyphen from Civil Rights movement, it came up red, so I had to put it back. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 19:03, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, you may want to pipe the link to keep the punctuation consistent in this article, even if it isn't consistent throughout WP. Scartol  •  Tok  01:28, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Als also insists that this division was generally directed at black women. This is unclear – could we get another sentence of explanation and/or an example?
 * It was very unclear, plus the sentence was a little screwy. I believed that I've clarified it.
 * Much better. Scartol  •  Tok  01:28, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm a little concerned about switching between "Angelou" and "Maya" in the article. I sense that Maya is only used when describing Angelou as a child, and I feel that it may be justified. But we should get another opinion on it.
 * I can understand this, so I went back and clarified the language as much as I thought was possible. However, I think that it's an important distinction, since it's one that Angelou makes herself.  She has made it very clear, which I believe the article captures, that although she's writing about things that she has experienced, she views "the Maya character" as a character distinct from who she is as an adult and as a writer.  In some ways, this distinction makes the article easier to write; I've noticed that many commentators (mostly in the mainstream press) become a little confused when talking about the Maya character and the adult who writes about her.  Of course, that's because they don't understand the distinction.  I don't want to make that mistake here. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 04:43, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, fair enough. The most important thing, then, is to be sure we're only using "Maya" when referring to the character. I trust you in doing this. Scartol  •  Tok  01:28, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * When I read this, I was fairly confident that the Maya usage was consistent throughout the article. Then I caught an inconsistency in the Film version section, and changed it right quick!  Perhaps some other eyes can look out for this, but I think we're okay. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 05:42, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * This metaphor also invokes the "supposed contradiction of the bird singing in the midst of its struggle". Seems like we should be able to find a quote from Angelou to wrap up this paragraph.
 * Ok, I had to take a couple of days to think about this, 'cause, see, from all the interviews Angelou has done about writing this book, she's never explained why she chose this particular line as her title. All she's said is, "It comes from the Dunbar poem".  At least nothing that I've ever found.  There's nothing in the book itself about it.  Weird, huh?  If anyone can find such an explanation, please, by all means, include it.  After thinking about it, though, I decided to do what I've done, and include part of MA's poem, "Caged Bird".  I think it explains pretty well her thoughts about the Dunbar poem, since it's a sequel of sorts.  Of course, that's OR, and just my opinion; I've never found any scholar make that same point.  That's part of the trouble with Dr. Angelou's works: other than Caged Bird, and probably just because of its popularity and controversy, not much of what she's written has really been studied.  Perhaps she's too much of a contemporary writer for any real scholarship to have occurred as of yet.  Plus, as she probably well knows, she an African American woman.  Enough said about that from this white girl! --Figureskatingfan (talk) 06:12, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the poem inclusion is good. Again, if there's no quote, then there's no quote. I suppose she expects people can mostly figure it out for themselves. Scartol  •  Tok  01:28, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * We should get a brief (one phrase) description of "the dentist scene".. Perhaps something like: "...the scene at the dentist's office, wherein [insert description here]."
 * Accomplished, I believe. It was written the original way because each of the items in the list are all described elsewhere in the article.  However, I agree that this particular phrase was the least descriptive.
 * Looks good. I tightened up the wording of that sentence. Scartol  •  Tok  01:28, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I expanded the sentence at the end of the "Racism" sub-section. Please make sure I didn't add anything incorrect.
 * It's fine. I added the Arensberg ref at the end just in case. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 06:21, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Excellent. Scartol  •  Tok  01:28, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * She is so involved in her fantasy world of books that she even uses them to cope while being raped. This is another great spot where a quote from the book would be very helpful to the reader.
 * Done! --Figureskatingfan (talk) 06:32, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Very nice. Scartol  •  Tok  01:28, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Reception

 * Poet James Bertolino asserts that Caged Bird "is one of the essential books produced by our culture", and says, "...We should all read it, especially our children". The second quote looks oddly formatted. I don't think we need that ellipsis. How about: Poet James Bertolino asserts that Caged Bird "is one of the essential books produced by our culture". "We should all read it," he says, "especially our children".?
 * I changed it, but it still looks weird to me, probably because of the two quotation marks so close together. What do you think about this: "Poet James Bertolino calls Caged Bird "one of the essential books produced by our culture" and asserts, ""We should all read it...especially our children"."?  I won't insert my version until I get some feedback about it, since your version with the double quotation marks may be acceptable grammatically. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 18:47, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * No, you're right. I just combined it all, but if the two parts are separated, then we should use the ellipsis like you did above. Scartol  •  Tok  01:37, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd like to see some discussion of specific writers who have been influenced by Caged Bird. I would expect we could find some quotes or descriptions of how Alice Walker or Dave Pelzer or Toni Morrison were affected by it.
 * I think I'm gonna need help on this one. From all my research, I have learned the following: Maya Angelou has influenced no one.  Or at least there were no sources that I could find that state that she has influenced specific writers like the ones you list above.  I have a personal theory that explains this, I think.  Although Dr. Angelou's work is critically acclaimed and she's been very successful, she's not that "well respected" in academic circles.  Compared to other authors, there haven't been that much written about her in academic journals and books.  As a result, there hasn't been a great deal written about the other authors she's influenced.  Perhaps there will be in another ten years, when more authors she has affected will be more successful and publish important works.  I also believe that the lack of studies about Dr. Angelou is due to the fact that she's a contemporary writer.  I suspect that after she passes, more articles and books will be written about her, since that's often the case about artists.  I think the sources already cited in this article are the best representative of the scholarship that's available currently.  In the meantime, perhaps someone can find something we can include in this article.
 * Ok, after thinking about this for a couple of hours today, I decided to add a line about Angelou's inclusion in the Poetry for Young People series. I think it's a strong enough statement about her influence.  What do you think? --Figureskatingfan (talk) 20:59, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's good. It might also be a good idea to look in biographies about Morrison and Walker et al and see if there are any references. That's another level, but it's something to consider. Scartol  •  Tok  01:37, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I did a short search and actually found something! E. Lynn Harris is an obscure writer, but it least it was something.  I think this is something we need to keep an eye out for.  I suspect that when the press realizes we're at the book's 40th anniversary, we'll get more. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 06:23, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Again, kudos for all your hard work so far. Your commitment to this important article is refreshing, and I have absolute faith that you will soon be rewarded with that lovely bronze star.
 * Well, thank you so much! It's been fun.  I appreciate your help.  Now that I've finally finished with your list, we can go on to the next step--another peer review and copyedit. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 19:08, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The article really looks good. (I think maybe I was in a bad mental place the last time I looked at it.) I'd like to ask Awadewit to take a look, and then see how she feels about moving to FAC when she's done. I'll let you know what I hear. Scartol  •  Tok  01:37, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Review (finally!)
I'm so sorry that it has taken me so long to get around to reviewing this article! The article has undergone a metamorphosis from its first incarnation. It has a lot of excellent material. I think that a little reorganization and a little explication in a few places for readers unfamiliar with the book will make it even better.

Images

 * File:George Eliot.jpg - we need the painter and a date for this image. We should also include what museum is currently holding it.
 * I suppose I am a bit uncomfortable featuring Eliot so prominently with this image. Caged Bird is clearly part of tradition of African-American literature, particularly slave narratives. I would rather have an image of another black woman writer, I think, which emphasizes that literary heritage, particularly because this connection is so often made in discussions about the book. Awadewit (talk) 01:08, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I see your point, but it gives credence to the article's statements about how autobiographies written by African Americans (especially women) had to "prove" themselves as "high art". One solution is to simply delete the image.  I don't see what we could replace it with, so perhaps we need to not have an image in this section.  Or we could expand the information about slave narratives to include a discussion of black writers.  I think I need to tackle this later, when I get to your review of the "Style and genre" section. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 17:19, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * That is a good point. Do you have any sources that make this "high art" point in relation to Eliot or in relation to nineteenth-century novels more generally? That would make for a better caption, I think, as it would tie the image more directly to the discussion of Caged Bird. Awadewit (talk) 23:14, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * This has now been resolved by other changes. Awadewit (talk) 10:36, 14 February 2009 (UTC)


 * File:Lafayette County Arkansas Incorporated and Unincorporated areas Stamps Highlighted.svg - It is best to list the sources that were used to create the map per WP:IUP.
 * I'm not sure about the best way to do this. Is there an example somewhere I can follow?  Do you list the sources in the caption?  I need some direction on this before I can do anything about it.
 * See File:HistorySixWeeksTourMap.png. We just need to add the source information to the image description page, either in the "description" field or the "source" field. Awadewit (talk) 23:16, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Um, I think the description page already has what you want. Please take another look and tell me what we need to add.
 * No, the source is simply listed as "US Census Bureau data". What year? Where is this data? We need specifics. Awadewit (talk) 05:50, 11 February 2009 (UTC)


 * In the "Racism" section, the text is sandwiched between the image and the quotebox. The MOS recommends against this kind of squishing. I've moved the quotebox a bit, but you should be aware that this issue might be raised at FAC.
 * Yah, I've played around with this, too, and even rolled myself back. I think that your solution is the best.


 * I've replaced Titian's "Rape of Lucrece" with a portrait of Shakespeare in the "Literacy" section, since Shakespeare seems to be the main focus of that section. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to add an interesting caption. What do you think about putting the "Shakespeare is a black woman" quote as the caption? That is a really striking statement.
 * There's been a lot of discussion about this. Scartol moved the Lucrece image there from its original placement in the "Rape" section, before some reorganization made it not fit there anymore.  I love that quote about Shakespeare; I was so excited when I found it.  It's kind of like the statement Dr. Angelou makes in the BBC interview about everyone being Scottish.  (Someone in the audience told her that he was from Scotland; Dr. Angelou said that she had some Scottish in her background; he said everyone in the world is a little bit Scottish, and she said that African Americans can say the same thing.)  I experimented around; let me know if you like what I've done to the caption. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 17:39, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Much better. I would suggest adding a ref for the quotation. Now that we have that quote in the caption, we can probably remove it from the article proper to avoid repetition. Awadewit (talk) 23:19, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you, and done. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 05:31, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Lead

 * Infoboxes are optional. I tend to think that they distract aesthetically from the image and, in this case, I don't think the box is presenting any additional information that the readers must have. I would suggest removing it.
 * Oo, how daring! ;) Done. I guess it can go back if anyone complains about how it doesn't follow the typical lit article. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 17:52, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Each book is unique is my argument. :) Awadewit (talk) 23:30, 8 February 2009 (UTC)


 * In general, I don't think that the lead is as well-written as the rest of the article. It also seems a bit skimpy. The meat of the article ("Style and genre" and "Themes") receive very little space in the lead. I would suggest expanding it by including more details from those sections.
 * I'm tackling these suggestions kinda out of order. I'll work on the lead, and maybe that will address these concerns as I go.
 * So I revamped the lead; I believe it addresses these concerns. Please let me know what you think, and if I need to expand it further.  Writing good leads is a big challenge for me.
 * I find leads very difficult, too. I often write them last, after I have a good grasp of what the article is about. I think this new version is much better, but the third paragraph sounds a bit listy. Awadewit (talk) 23:30, 8 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Angelou was challenged by her friend, author James Baldwin, and her editor, Robert Loomis, to write an autobiography that was also a piece of literature. - This sentence doesn't fit into the first paragraph of the lead - it doesn't flow.
 * Fixed, I think.
 * Much better, yes. Awadewit (talk) 23:30, 8 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Angelou uses the younger version of herself to illustrate themes such as identity, rape, racism, and literacy - Are rape and literacy themes exactly? They sound more like plot points around which other kinds of themes might revolve. I think we need to choose these words more carefully.
 * I changed "themes" to "topics". Does that help? --Figureskatingfan (talk) 18:19, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * This brings up something for me. Since themes have been changed to topics in this sentence, should we change the header to "Topics" or "Topics addressed"? --Figureskatingfan (talk) 17:38, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The header is fine, although the "rape" section is often about power and racism and how it is connected to sexuality. The change in the lead is an improvement. Awadewit (talk) 23:30, 8 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Angelou also shows the power of words and how literature helped her survive. - I think this sentence needs to be more specific - right now it is a repetition of the "love of literature" statement in the first paragraph of the lead.
 * I think that I took care of the repetition problem. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 17:05, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. Awadewit (talk) 23:31, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Background and title

 * Prior to writing I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings, Angelou could already be called "a Renaissance woman" - Does any other source use this phrase? It seems a bit over the top to me and relying on the Philadelphia Inquirer for it seems sketchy. The sentence doesn't make much sense anyway - it suggests that writing the book made her a Renaissance woman - how would that be?
 * It must have been unclear, since what I was trying to say was that Angelou had lots of jobs before writing the book. So I changed it to "...Angelou had a long and varied career..", then I listed some of the jobs, and added a reference to support the brothel madame entry.  Does that work better? --Figureskatingfan (talk) 23:38, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Much better. Awadewit (talk) 10:05, 14 February 2009 (UTC)


 * After organizing a few benefits for King's Southern Christian Leadership Conference, he named her the organization's Northern Coordinator in 1960. She spent several years in Africa and was invited back to the US by Malcolm X to work for him shortly before his assassination in 1965. - It is jarring to suddenly read that she is in Africa - why did she go there?
 * It's hard for me to answer that, since I have yet to read her book about those years, All God's Children Need Traveling Shoes. As far as I can tell, though, is that she went there to work.  I've changed the text to reflect this.
 * Ok. Awadewit (talk) 10:05, 14 February 2009 (UTC)


 * She spent several years in Africa - "Africa" is rather vague - do we at least know what countries she went to?
 * Yes, we do--Ghana. Made the change.


 * She was "deeply depressed" about King, so to help lift her spirits, Baldwin brought her to a dinner party at the home of cartoonist Jules Feiffer and his wife Judy - In what year? The previous sentence suggests that many years have passed, but I don't think this is the case.
 * You're right; it was also in 1968. I've clarified it a bit.  (Point of trivia: I've learned an interesting coincidence that occurred at about the same time.  Sesame Street, another article I've been working on (along with History of Sesame Street), was also created after a dinner party, in early 1966.  I just can't get over that!)


 * Shouldn't all of the volumes of Angelou's autobiography have their own articles, therefore, shouldn't we have redlinks on the missing articles? (I'm seeing an opportunity for DYKs here!)
 * Done. Good point.  Actually, my long-term goal is to eventually have a Maya Angelou featured topic.  In order for that to be accomplished, her main bio page needs significant improvement.  The steps towards that includes articles written about each of her autobiographies, but I feel strongly that someone should actually read them before that happens.  I also strongly believe that in order to do the bio section of Maya Angelou justice, I need to read them all.  I've only been able to, up to now, read the first two.  I created the Gather Together in My Name article, and brought it to GA.  That will happen for all of them, but since I seem to be the only editor in all of WP interested in improving Angelou-themed articles, it's gonna take some time.  But as my new friend Scartol says, "There are no deadlines in Wikipedia". ;) --Figureskatingfan (talk) 06:33, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I did a Mary Wollstonecraft featured topic. It was exhausting! I'm working on a Mary Shelley FT now, but it will take much longer because I have less time. I think the Angelou FT sounds like an excellent idea. Just do an article every few months or so and eventually you'll get there! Awadewit (talk) 10:12, 14 February 2009 (UTC)


 * they travel alone and are labeled like baggage - "like" or "as"?
 * "Like". That's exactly as (har-har) Bloom puts it, which has been referenced.


 * The discussion of the title doesn't seem to flow well with the rest of the section. However, if we separate it, it would probably be a little too small for a section. Hm. Thoughts? (Perhaps the "Racism" section?)
 * I dunno. I don't think it belongs in the "Racism" section, and there needs to be an explanation of where she got the title.  Above, in Scartol's comments, there's a discussion about why there isn't more about the reason Dr. Angelou chose to use the Dunbar poem.  As I told Scar, there's absolutely nothing I could find.  Dr. Angelou seems to choose to not discuss it, and no other reviewer bothers to, either.  Everyone thinks it's obvious, I suppose.  I don't see a solution; perhaps there simply isn't one.  I vote for keeping it the way it is. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 06:46, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The reason I suggested the "Racism" section is because this is when the article actually discusses the meaning of the figure "caged bird" - it would connect title, poem, and theme. However, the ultimate decision is up to you. Awadewit (talk) 10:12, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I rewrote this to try and make it flow together more organically. Scartol  •  Tok  14:04, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Plot summary

 * Many of the problems Maya encounters in her childhood stem from the prejudice and overt racism of her white neighbors - What is the difference between "prejudice" and "overt racism"? Do we need to list both?
 * Technically, yes, there is a difference. However, I don't think it's worth it to press the point, so I deleted "prejudice and".


 * A white dentist refuses to treat Maya's rotting tooth, even when Momma reminds him of a previous loan. - A loan that Maya's family made to him?
 * Yes. Clarified the sentence.


 * when Bailey is disturbed by the discovery of the corpse of a black man, Momma decides to send her grandchildren to their mother in San Francisco, California. - Eh? What is going on? This is a jarring jump for the reader.
 * I think the best way to deal with this is to make the sentence more general, so that's what I've done. She sent the children away because this incident reminded her that Stamps was a very dangerous place, especially for young blacks.  I think the change better explains that.  Let me know if it's enough, please.


 * The fourth paragraph of the "Plot summary" is disconnected - it does not flow as well as the rest of the summary.
 * I've done some copyediting of that paragraph; I hope it takes care of this problem. I hafta tell you, the Summary section has given me fits.  At one point, there were two summaries of the book, both badly written.  Another challenge was trying to figure out what to include, since the book is full of ancedotes.  Every story is important, but not everything should be here.  At the end, I tried to include the incidences that had to do most with the developments of the themes Angelou describes.  --Figureskatingfan (talk) 06:14, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I also find plot summaries extremely difficult. The novels I usually write about are long and complex. I'm often trying to reduce 500+ pages to a few paragraphs. :) A real challenge. Awadewit (talk) 10:15, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Style and genre

 * Angelou's use of fiction-writing techniques such as dialogue, characterization, and thematic development often leads reviewers to categorize her books as autobiographical fiction. - Something seems off about this sentence, but I can't quite put my finger on it.
 * Perhaps it's the autobiographical categorization? If not, I suspect you have the same problem that I have, and I'm the one who wrote that sentence, the use of the verb "leads".  Its usage is correct, but it's natural for native English speakers to want to use the singular tense because of the list included in the sentence.  It just doesn't feel or sound right, but that's English for ya.
 * I actually teach grammar, so that sounds right to me (I'm one of those people who flinch when "less" is used incorrectly.) It isn't the autobiographical categorization, either. Again, since I teach fiction, so I'm familiar with the cross-over. I think it is the phrases "fiction-writing techniques" and "thematic development - "fictional techniques", "techniques employed by novelists", etc. are all wrong. Do we even need that part? Could we say "Angelou's use of dialogue, characterization, and thematic development often leads reviewers to categorize..."? I still would like to find something better for "thematic development", though. Awadewit (talk) 10:35, 14 February 2009 (UTC)


 * As with most autobiographies, Angelou uses the first-person narrative voice, in spite of also including fiction-like aspects, told from the perspective of a child that is "artfully recreated by an adult narrator". - I'm not sure why we have "in spite of" - there are many fictional works that use the first-person, so this is confusing.
 * I see your point. I deleted the phrase.


 * The second paragraph of "Style and genre" has three sentences in a row that begin "Angelou".
 * Fixed. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 17:48, 13 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The "Style and genre" section states that Lupton calls Caged Bird a bildungsroman - is she the only one? I hate to attribute this idea to one critic as it seems so obvious.
 * I added some content about another critic who labels the book in this way. It led me to correct your concern about the Eliot image, so I replaced it with the Richard Wright image.  Thanks!
 * This addition is excellent. Awadewit (talk) 10:35, 14 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The fourth paragraph of "Style and genre" should be combined with the second - they are about the same topic.
 * What a simple and elegant solution to that problem! After doing it, I thought that the paragraph was too long, so I separated it into two, to make it easier for the reader.
 * These two paragraphs can probably be reorganized a bit, to put all of the slave narrative material together and all of the child/adult material together. Awadewit (talk) 10:35, 14 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The first half of the fifth paragraph of "Style and genre" belongs in the "Background" section. The second half - the part about thematic unity - belongs in the "Themes" section. It might be a good way to introduce that section.
 * The first sentence here has been addressed, with some copyediting and restructuring. Let me know if it works.  Regarding the second sentence, I inserted the thematic unity part at the beginning of the "Themes" section, as you suggest.  As I stated in the edit summary, it needs more work and expansion, and I'll tackle that when I get to your comments.  This point has gone far in improving this section, I believe.


 * The sixth paragraph of "Style and genre" belongs in the "Background" section. The way Angelou writes is not really related to the style of the book - it is factual information about the way the book was created. It is not about the contents of the book, if you see the difference.
 * I do. That's why I followed your suggestion and moved it.  You should also know that this information is also in Angelou's bio. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 19:31, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Themes

 * The "Themes" section needs some sort of introduction that lets readers know what is coming - a summary of some sort, perhaps.
 * I started this, based upon the above suggestion about moving the content to here from the "Style and genre section". I'm not sure if it's enough; I revisit it when I've completed this section's review.
 * This is an excellent introduction - it is just a bit wordy. Awadewit (talk) 13:27, 21 February 2009 (UTC)


 * In general, the "Themes" section has too many quotations - they interrupt the flow of the article and make it hard to read. This section of the article, in particular, needs to be paraphrased more, although the entire article could do with a reduction in quotation.
 * I think you're right. I'm postponing this, though, until I'm finished with this review and with Moni3's review, as a final passthrough and ce.


 * In the "Themes" section in particular, too many of the sentences attribute the ideas in them. This needs to be reduced. Not every idea needs to be attributed. Ideas that appear throughout the literature on Caged Bird need to be sourced, of course, but they do not need to be attributed in the text. Only ideas that are distinctive to one critic need to be attributed to a critic.
 * I'm not sure I'm sure I understand what you're asking. In the past, for other FACs and reviews, I've received opposite feedback.  Like the above point, I'll revisit this one.  Perhaps when I decrease the quotations, this won't seem as jarring.


 * In general, the prose in the "Themes" section is wordy. Here are two examples with unnecessary repetition:
 * Maya recognizes the importance of this incident, as well as the incident that immediately follows it, her short period of homelessness after arguing with her father's girlfriend. These two incidents give Maya a knowledge of self-determination and confirm her self-worth.
 * Being sent away from their parents was a psychological rejection, something that the young children interpreted as "a rejection of self". This rejection also resulted in a quest for love, acceptance, and self-worth.
 * I think that I need to tackle this suggestion like the two above, in a sweep of the section.


 * Lauret sees a connection between the autobiographies Angelou has written and fictional first-person narratives; they can be called "fictions of subjectivity" and "feminist first-person narratives" because they employ the narrator as protagonist and "rely upon the illusion of presence in their mode of signification" - I'm not sure I see the connection between the first half of the sentence and the second. Also, the referent for "they" is unclear.
 * Fixed and clarified, I think.


 * As a displaced person, her pain is worsened by an awareness of her displacement.[4] Maya is "the forgotten child", and must come to terms with "the unimaginable reality" of being unloved and unwanted. - The paragraph from which these sentences come starts out by talking about beauty and whiteness - what is the connection to displacement?


 * African American literature scholar Dolly McPherson states that Angelou, in her demonstration of the passage from childhood to young adulthood, creatively uses "the Christian myth" and presents the themes of death, regeneration, and rebirth.[5] Scholar Liliane Arensberg calls this Angelou's "identity theme" and a major motif in Angelou's narrative. - How does Angelou's use the Christian myth and does Arensberg refer to this same motif (the sentence is confusing)? Should there be a separate paragraph on Christian symbolism? This idea also seems separate from the topic sentence of the paragraph - whiteness and beauty.
 * I think that this paragraph is very problematic, and it tries to discuss three topics: beauty and whiteness, rejection, and the Christian myth. I need to go away and fix it, right now! --Figureskatingfan (talk) 21:25, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, I did some restructuring, and I think the topics presented here flow together now. Whew!  Please look at what I did and tell me if it did the trick.
 * I think this is much better and some skillful copyediting will make it flow even better. Awadewit (talk) 13:27, 21 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Another incident that solidifies Maya's identity is her trip to Mexico with her father - It is not clear what the first incident is - the breaking of the dish? "Another" is also a weak transition word.
 * True point. Changed it from "another" to "an". --Figureskatingfan (talk) 22:52, 13 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Maya recognizes the importance of this incident - How so?
 * This wasn't answered in the original source, so I cut "Maya recognizes the importance of this incident". Perhaps it clarified it somewhat.


 * The kinship and motherhood paragraphs in the "Identity" section do not flow well. They need to be better integrated into the rest of the section - explain how these concepts are connected to the concept of identity. That will help.
 * I integrated the part about the kids' psychological rejection into the paragraph about being a black girl. I also deleted the part about the black community because the same thing is said in the "Racism" section.  I believe these changes make the prose flow better, as you demand. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 22:32, 14 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The motherhood paragraph in the "Identity" section does not explain how motherhood is a theme of Caged Bird in particular.
 * This paragraph needed some expansion to support this assertion (motherhood being a theme of the book), so I added some content from the Arensberg article. I think it fulfills this request.


 * Angelou at first internalizes twentieth-century racist conceptions of the black female body, and then challenges them - The reader cannot be expected to really understand this - this is quite dense - what are the racist conceptions and how does Angelou challenge them?
 * I clarified the sentence. First, I added the phrase "...namely, that the black female is physically unattractive" (which as a white girl, is really hard for me to write).  Second, to answer the question, how does Angelou challenge them, I realized the answer is by using the metaphor of rape to represent the suffering of her race, as Jacobs does.  I think it's clearer now.


 * Like elements within a prison narrative, the caged bird represents Angelou's confinement resulting from racism, as well as other forms of oppression like drugs, marriage, and economic inequality. - This is confusing.
 * It needed clarification, so I changed the phrase to "...resulting from racism and oppression". --Figureskatingfan (talk) 22:12, 15 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The second paragraph of "Racism" is really just a mishmash of ideas - I'm not really sure what its focus is supposed to be. I actually think it could be deleted.


 * The Bill Moyers anecdote is interesting, but it doesn't explain racism within the book. I would suggest adding this to the "Background" section or deleting it.
 * I combined the second and third paragraphs of the section, which led me to delete parts of them (including the Moyers story, which I put in Angelou's bio page) so that the prose flows better. I think I was trying to do too many things in both paragraphs: describe how Angelou treats racism, how it provides the book's (and all her autobiographies) thematic unity, and the historical background at the time.  I don't know if I succeeded this time, since it's a complicated issue that I don't even pretend to understand even a little bit.  --Figureskatingfan (talk) 19:21, 16 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Later chapters in Caged Bird demonstrate the limitations of subtle resistance, but Angelou shows that it serves as a basis for moving to actively protesting and combating racism. - How so?


 * Other ways of responding to racism are presented, like when Maya broke the race barrier and became the first black street-car operator; her description of eighth-grade graduation; her treatment by her white employer Mrs. Cullinan; and being refused service by a white dentist. - It is unclear what these "other ways of responding to racism" are.
 * Unclear for the same reason as above; I overhauled these two paragraphs as well. Man, that was a hard section to write!  What was I thinking, taking on this article, anyway?
 * That such an important book should have a wonderful article! :) Awadewit (talk) 13:27, 21 February 2009 (UTC)


 * In the "Literacy" section, Maya is suddenly referred to as Angelou. This is confusing, as "Angelou" is the word used for the author and "Maya" for the character. I think the article should remain consistent.
 * Okay, you need to read my discussion with Scartol about this, above. I have a feeling that this will come up in again.  Perhaps the transition is too abrupt in the first paragraph of this section.  As a result, I changed the wording to make it more smooth.
 * I think the revision is good and your explanation above makes sense. Awadewit (talk) 13:27, 21 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what the advice Angelou gave to Oprah Winfrey adds - how is it related to Caged Bird exactly? I would delete that material.
 * But it's such a great quote and gives us an opportunity to name drop! ;) Seriously, though, I think this again suffers from weak transitions. I think that I've made it stronger. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 21:42, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I still think deleting this would add to the cohesiveness of the section, as neither of the quotations directly addresses literacy. Awadewit (talk) 13:27, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it could be worked in with something like: "Referring to the methods she uses for effective writing, Angelou once advised Oprah Winfrey in an interview to..."? Scartol  •  Tok  14:22, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, I changed it to, ""Referring to the importance of literacy and the methods she uses for effective writing, Angelou once advised Oprah Winfrey in an interview to..." --Figureskatingfan (talk) 18:26, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Reception and legacy

 * The "Influence" section seems unbalanced to me. Caged Bird's influence is not primarily in teacher education or sociology - it is in race relations and literature. The section does not really explain this. I'm concerned that the education and sociology elements are receiving undue weight.
 * Scartol and I have also talked about this, I think. His issue about this section was that there wasn't enough in this article about the other African American female authors that Angelou has influenced.  His concern inspired me to do a pretty thorough search, but I found very little.  That's surprising, I know, but true.  I speculated about the reasons it could be at the time.  At the same time, I'm not sure I agree with you about where the book's influence is the greatest.  Caged Bird is used a great deal in the classroom, so it makes sense that the little that has been written about it would be in teacher ed and sociology.
 * I see - my larger concern is assuaged. Another avenue I would suggest for possible research is the academic scholarship on memoirs - a lot of work has been done on that topic recently. Caged Bird is often assigned in college classes on biography and autobiography, so discussions of those genres might be helpful as well. Awadewit (talk) 13:40, 21 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The "Censorship" section does not flow very well. I would suggest combining the two paragraphs (the second one is just a prose list right now) and paraphrasing the quotations.
 * Okay, done. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 06:06, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Much better. Awadewit (talk) 13:40, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

General prose issues

 * "African-American" should be hyphenated throughout the article.
 * As discussed previously, again with Scartol, it seems that the WP convention for African American is no hyphens. This is easy to miss, though, so I'll make another pass through.  Found it twice, and fixed.


 * The word "this" is overused in the article - it is often difficult to tell what it is referring to.
 * I'll look for this (har-har) in the passthrough, which I may be able to get to tomorrow night. If not, perhaps on Wednesday morning.


 * Redlink articles that should be created. Hopefully it will encourage others to add to the encyclopedia. It will at least remind us that more articles are waiting to be created!
 * Yes, I've read the Signpost from last week about how redlinks encourage the project's growth. The evidence bears it out, even if it is ugly.  I'll see what I can add.
 * Check out Charlotte Turner Smith - the sea of red! :) I'm working on lots of DYKs right now. Awadewit (talk) 13:42, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh, good!
 * I didn't see much in the way of MOS concerns.

This article is looking good. I think that two more weeks of hard polishing will produce a gem. :) Awadewit (talk) 02:17, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * You mean a month! You have challenged me to become a better writer.  I'll do my passthrough this week, address Moni3's review, and go on from there.  Thanks for all your helpful and constructive criticism.  I need reviewers like you to check my sometimes weak prose.  After all this, I think we'll get to FA pretty easily. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 06:19, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
 * This is what makes Wikipedia great, in my opinion. We have helpful friends! Awadewit (talk) 13:42, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Review by Moni3
As requested by Scartol. I have not read Awadewit's review. I don't want her ideas to influence mine before I form my opinions on the article. Forgive me if I duplicate what has already been pointed out.


 * Do reliable sources use "Caged Bird" as a truncated version of the title? If not, it should be spelled out as it is.
 * Yes, they do. Everyone calls it that.  For example, Mary Jane Lupton uses "Caged Bird" all throughout her book about Angelou; that source has been used extensively in this article.


 * What is your reasoning for removing the novels infobox? Just curious.
 * Because infoboxes are evil and make it seem like all "novels" can be grouped together as a single genre when, in fact, that is impossible to do. Awadewit (talk) 10:02, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Farting around with editors who needed to know just how Jewish Harvey Milk was to include his religion in the infobox, also made me feel that infoboxes are a blight on society. But, Figureskatingfan, if you leave it out editors will ask why at FAC, and someone else will "help" you by placing it in the article, and someone else will come along and place a fact tag on the Genre: Autobiography line because infoboxes can't summarize what articles explain. If you're lucky it will happen the day it's on the main page. --Moni3 (talk) 14:25, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * How cool is it that you think this article will get on the main page! Personally, I dunno what I think about infoboxes.  I think for some articles, perhaps the smaller ones, they're helpful.  For sprawling ones like this, I'm with Awadewit; I think they can be downright ugly.  For example, I was happy when someone with credibility told me that infoboxes weren't mandatory, because I absolutely hated the one on Sesame Street.  That being said, I think that if the kind of thing happens that you describe, we can always wait until the furvor calms down, note in the edit summary that this has been discussed, and revert it back.  When it comes up at FAC, and they give a valid reason for putting it back (not we've always done it that way!), and if it gets in the way of passing, I'm easy; we can put it back.  Sorry, but people will be mad! isn't a good enough reason to put it back at this time.  So let's keep it out for the time being and see what happens. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 22:49, 14 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I was into the article until the second paragraph in Plot summary stopped me. It's choppy and should flow better with some tweaking.
 * I tweaked. I think the problem with this paragraph is that much of it's a list of Maya's experiences of racism.  The effect of it should be: This happened-pow!  And then this-pow!  And that-pow!  See how horrible it was? --Figureskatingfan (talk) 21:30, 17 February 2009 (UTC)


 * What do you think of rewriting the second paragraph under Style and genre to make the paragraph about Angelou's unique approach to the autobiography:
 * Angelou made a deliberate attempt while writing Caged Bird to challenge the common structure of an autobiography by critiquing, changing, and expanding the genre. Her use of fiction-writing techniques such as dialogue, characterization, and thematic development often lead reviewers to categorize her books as autobiographical fiction. Angelou acknowledges that she has followed the slave narrative tradition of "speaking in the first-person singular talking about the first-person plural, always saying I meaning 'we'". She uses the first-person narrative voice customary with most autobiographies throughout the story, but also includes fiction-like aspects, told from the perspective of a child that is "artfully recreated by an adult narrator" according to ..... She uses two distinct voices, the adult writer and the child who is the focus of the book, whom Angelou calls "the Maya character". Angelou reports that maintaining this distinction is "damned difficult", but "very necessary". Scholar Liliane Arensberg suggests that Angelou "retaliates for the tongue-tied child's helpless pain" by using her adult's irony and wit.
 * Sure. You version is clearer, so thanks.  I made slight changes, and reinserted the sources.


 * Do the same with the paragraph in this section that starts Robert Loomis... Sometimes your paragraphs start well, with the primary reason for the information in the first sentence, and sometimes it takes a sentence or two to work into it. I'm assuming the point of the Robert Loomis info is the dare he gave Angelou in order to write the book or the reasons why she wrote it, since that is in the lead. That should be the first sentence, not the 3rd. In an encyclopedia article, it's 1. an ADD nightmare, and I lose focus if I don't get the point of the paragraph in the first sentence, and 2. structurally sloppy to make readers guess what point you're trying to make.
 * For instance, in the next paragraph, I find this: In spite of the "conversational" tone of her books[4] and her uncomplicated style, Angelou describes a regimented writing process.[5] Critic Opal Moore says about Caged Bird: "... Though easily read, [it] is no 'easy read'".[30] Beginning with Caged Bird, Angelou has used the same "writing ritual"[31] for many years and I'm confused because I don't know if I'm reading about Angelou's writing regimen, or how easy the book is to read, though the material is hard to deal with. I'm feeble minded. Don't hurt me by switching topics.
 * I think that now that these two paragraphs have been changed, as per Awadewit's suggestions above, these ideas are clearer. They were in the wrong section, and I moved them to more appropriate sections.  And I doubt very much that you're feeble minded. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 21:54, 17 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The first paragraph under Themes should address the most important theme, by stating outright, the most significant theme in Caged Bird has been cited as __________ by scholars .... You start with a small paragraph about women's lives in a male dominated society, but even before that, you start with a scholar that has not yet been introduced. This is information that should be in this section, but not before strong statements about what the most significant themes of the book are. The word "identity" does not appear until the last sentence in the second paragraph under Identity. (I don't understand what this sentence is saying: they can be called "fictions of subjectivity" and "feminist first-person narratives" because they employ the narrator as protagonist and "rely upon the illusion of presence in their mode of signification")
 * Awadewit had me improve this paragraph, and after your criticism, I saw that it still wasn't clear. (Plus, there was an extra "the" in there.)  I further improved it, and I think it's better now.  The problem with this is that Lauret wasn't all that clear about what "illusion of presence" and "mode of signification" means.  I assume their literature/feminist terms.


 * I do this sometimes, and I hope you are able to understand when I refer to writing in movement. The points you are trying to make should be made powerfully, BAM! Identity! I find the writing now to be a little coy, working up to the point eventually. But you are writing about this book by saying, "Look! The most important theme is identity! I don't say it, these important people say it. And this is what their evidence is!" The way the Rape theme section begins is how blunt it should be. I like this section, excepting the 3rd paragraph, which made me think it should rather be under Racism until the rape issue was connected at the end of the paragraph. Don't make me wait; connect it in the beginning.
 * The above two points need to be addressed as I make the final passthrough, which I will do this morning. I'll keep these criticisms in mind, along with your other suggestions.  Thanks for the feedback; it's making me out to be a better writer/editor, one of my weaknesses.  Regarding the identity section, however, it's first simply because it's the longest; i.e., I found the most information about it.  The only scholar that stated anything about one theme being more "important" than any other was Lupton, who has said that motherhood is the most consistent theme in all of Angelou's autobiographies.  I felt that belonged under identity, since she only starts to emphasize the theme in Caged Bird.  After making the changes you suggest in these points, I moved the Racism section to above the Rape section, since Racism is now longer.


 * The book advocates lesbianism eh? Guess I should have read it at a young age.
 * Ha! This statement made me laugh out loud!  Then I felt guilty for laughing, which makes it a great joke. ;)


 * Maybe it's me, but I like to end an article with a quote. Do you have something that reflects how Angelou felt about the film being brought to production? Something that encompasses how she feels about the story as a whole?
 * One of the criticisms of this article is that it's got too many quotes and you want me to add another one? So maybe it is you. ;)  I wonder if what you need is another image.  I'll see what I can do.
 * So I made a good college try, and it got deleted. That's okay, because I think I came up with another solution: adding the first stanza of Lift Every Voice and Sing, the Negro national anthem, since it's presented in the book and movie.  I think it's a perfect way to end the article; it certainly makes me get all emotional. ;) --Figureskatingfan (talk) 22:10, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Well done, and good luck. --Moni3 (talk) 20:39, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'll do my passthrough now. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 17:32, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Are we going to have a copyediting party this weekend? Awadewit (talk) 13:44, 21 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm going through it right now. I almost changed the 2nd sentence in the lead: "a strong character and a love of literature" can be read two ways: that the Maya character is a strong character, or that character/integrity is a worthy trait. Might it be as accurate to change that to "integrity of character" or some other way to differentiate it from a literary character? --Moni3 (talk) 15:56, 21 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I think that it means that if anyone has a strong character and a love of literature, like the Maya-character, you can get through any hardship or trauma. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 18:10, 21 February 2009 (UTC)


 * That it can be interpreted differently by different people means you should probably clarify it. I suggest using another word than "character", since we're talking about a book here that uses characters. It's not that kind of character you're meaning to use. --Moni3 (talk) 18:24, 21 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Ok, I changed it to "strength of character". --Figureskatingfan (talk) 22:05, 22 February 2009 (UTC)