Talk:Ian Kinsler/GA1

GA Review
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OK, this is my first GA review, but I've been through one myself and am quite familiar with the style requirements and such from working at FLC. So, here goes.

GA Criteria quick checklist (updated 22:06, 28 May 2009 (UTC))

 * Well-written: Symbol oppose vote.svg Fail
 * Clear prose/correct spelling and grammar: Symbol support vote.svg Pass
 * Complies with MOS: Symbol oppose vote.svg Fail


 * Factually accurate and verifiable: Symbol oppose vote.svg Fail
 * "provides references to all sources of information in the section(s) dedicated to the attribution of these sources according to the guide to layout": Symbol oppose vote.svg Fail
 * "provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons": Symbol oppose vote.svg Fail
 * "contains no original research": Symbol support vote.svg Pass for now (though this will be easier to assess once reference formatting is fixed)


 * Broad in coverage: Symbol support vote.svg Pass
 * Neutral: Symbol support vote.svg Pass for now (though this will be easier to assess once reference formatting is fixed)
 * Stable: Symbol support vote.svg Pass
 * Illustrated with images: Symbol support vote.svg Pass
 * As a side-note to this, there is currently one image in the article of moderate quality; however, there is a Flickr user named Keith Allison with tons of fantastic-quality MLB photos, and he has an entire set of Kinsler photos licensed under Wikipedia-appropriate terms, so I would definitely consider adding some of those to this article. I will look at uploading some myself as well. KV5  ( Talk  •  Phils ) 20:12, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Update as of 18:25, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Several comments from the first tranche have yet to be addressed, and I haven't reviewed the article further because the second half may not be consistent with the first half. I've transcluded the review on to the talk page in hope of getting these issues greater exposure; however, this review will only be open for approximately one more week before it is closed. KV5 ( Talk  •  Phils ) 18:25, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Specific corrections to be made
I haven't done a full review of the entire article yet, but will put it together piecemeal as the next week goes on.


 * The first thing that absolutely must be fixed with this article is that every reference in external link format (single brackets and bare URLs) must be converted into reference format. Check all of your web references for all necessary parts (see WP:CITE). All references need to have, at minimum, the title, URL, access date, and work/publisher, if they are web sources. Using citation templates will make this a lot easier. I definitely suggest a peer review next time on an article like this before bringing it to GA, but I don't mind doing this like a peer review, because I probably would have reviewed it there anyway. This issue is of the utmost importance to get this to GA-quality. If you need an example article to look at, see the list of GA-class Baseball articles.
 * 'scuse me for butting in, but my toolbox includes instructions for refTools, which provides a form-based interface for coding citation templates and provides everything you need for over 95% of citations. --Philcha (talk) 20:00, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I certainly don't consider it butting in; I use refTools myself and it's a wonderful thing! Highly recommended. KV5  ( Talk  •  Phils ) 20:04, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Quick things that jump out at me as I skim the article:
 * If the information about his faith is important to the article (which it is if it's verifiable and so forth), then it should probably have its own section or be part of the personal section. As it is currently, it's crammed into a section about his early life; that's not a proper layout.
 * The lead is supposed to be a summary of the article. It's currently just two sentences. Expand using information from the article; summarize his most impressive career achievements to this point or any records that he holds. This is a little more difficult because this is a BLP, but look to other baseball GAs for examples.
 * Use the same tense throughout the article. Parts are written in past tense (as they should be if they happened in the past); others are written in future tense and convey a speculative tone. Consider rewording things like "It could buy him out of two years of free agency" (just an example).
 * I will help with copyediting during this review, but consider asking another editor who is a good copyeditor for input and help with this.
 * There is a lot of overlinking. I will be more specific when I come back to do a more in-depth review.
 * Get the statistics table to a stable point (end of last season), though I don't particularly like those in articles anyway.

I will return to give specific suggestions here once the reference issues are fixed; the above is just things to consider as we move forward. KV5 ( Talk  •  Phils ) 22:06, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

First tranche of comments

 * "(born June 22, 1982, in Tucson, Arizona)" - remove comma after 1982, and suggest the city-state template for Tucson, Arizona
 * My understanding per Strunk and White is that that comma must be there, and it would be error to exclude it. Please point me to the basis for your comment. Tx for the template -- never saw it before ... input it.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:17, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know what Strunk and White is, but it looks like a comma that serves no purpose. You can fix it another way by moving the place of birth out of the parentheses. This would be very awkward if he were to die unexpectedly because you wouldn't have place of birth and place of death in the parentheses. They are shown in the infobox and can likely be mentioned in prose. KV5  ( Talk  •  Phils ) 11:36, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The comma here is quite standard, and it would be wrong to exclude it. See the Wikipedia entry for comma, which states in part:  "most style manuals, including the Chicago Manual of Style[8] and the AP Stylebook,[9] recommend that the year be treated as a parenthetical, requiring a second comma after it: "Feb. 14, 1987, was the target date."  I can't fathom a GA review reason to change it.  Quite the opposite--if it were missing, I would expect a GA review to require it.--Epeefleche (talk) 13:33, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * That flies in the face of everything I learned about punctuation and grammar. However, like I said, moving the birthplace into lead text instead of the parentheses fixes this problem. Additionally, please note that the reference used to verify the Chicago requirement of the comma is misused in that article. I found the example in the AP stylebook, but it looks horribly wrong. KV5  ( Talk  •  Phils ) 16:55, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * What source other than your recollection of what you learned about punctuation supports a change? In addition to what I referred to, Wiki guidelines themselves point to the same construct.  See .  I can't fathom a reason to change an entry in accord with Wiki guidelines and the premier stylebooks, on the basis of your recollection of what you learned as to puctuation.  If you can point me to a Wiki guideline that suggests that this is wrong, I will be most interested.  Otherwise, I suggest that we both change any constructs we happen across that are missing the comma to include it.--Epeefleche (talk) 11:19, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I see nothing in that guideline (which I had already read) to support the use of the comma here. KV5  ( Talk  •  Phils ) 11:59, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It uses the same format used in the article, in the wikipedia article mentioned above, and in the style guides: "If a date range is abbreviated, use the formats 5–7 January 1979 or January 5–7, 2002, with an unspaced en-dash."  I have yet to see anything, on the other hand, mandating that there not be a comma following the year.  Perhaps your teacher(s) were wrong?  Was this at a graduate English program?--Epeefleche (talk) 15:10, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * That does not reference a comma in any way. The comma shown there is to set off the final phrase. Regardless, I have been looking and haven't been able to find anything to support removing the comma, so I'll grin and bear it and just assume that all of my English teachers were idiots (a fair assumption, all things considered) after I check my Bedford Handbook when I get home from work today. KV5  ( Talk  •  Phils ) 15:21, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "because he excels at hitting for average, hitting for power, baserunning skills and speed, throwing ability, and fielding prowess" - readers can learn what the five tools are by clicking on the link. Put the two references together, not separated.
 * Some readers will no doubt have print versions of the article, and not be able to know what the five tools consist of by clicking on the link.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:38, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It looks out of place as is. It will likely be better if the lead is expanded. It should be at least two full paragraphs. KV5  ( Talk  •  Phils ) 11:36, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Understood. I've expanded the lead.--Epeefleche (talk) 15:23, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * As per the above, expand the lead significantly.
 * I've expanded it, and it does look better. Tx.--Epeefleche (talk) 15:26, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * What makes http://athletes-celebrities.tseworld.com/sports/baseball/ian-kinsler.php a reliable source?
 * It is the company that represents him, the information it is not unduly self-serving, it does not involve claims about third parties, it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject, and there is no reasonable doubt that the subject did not actually approve it.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:38, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * 'and likes the attention that he generates from the Jewish community.[9]" - this reference does not support this statement
 * Actually, I believe that the reference does support the statement. The reference states, in pertinent part, "Murray Chass, a former sports columnist for The New York Times ... wondered about the propriety of all this attention that Jews shower on Jewish baseball players. So, during the recent All-Star game, he questioned two of the three Jewish players about this: Ian Kinsler and Ryan Braun. They told him they didn't mind at all. They liked it."--Epeefleche (talk) 16:10, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "His father was a warden at the state prison on Tucson's Southeast Side.[6]" - as this is an opinion piece, stated in more than one place, it doesn't qualify as a reliable source
 * The writing was by Star sports columnist Greg Hansen, who has been the Star's sports columnist since 1983, and has worked at the Deseret Morning News in Salt Lake City, covered the Tampa Bay Buccaneers for the St. Petersburg Evening Independent, and been sports editor of dailies in Oregon and Utah. The reference in question is to fact, not opinion.  Isn't that an appropriate source?  Tx.--Epeefleche (talk) 16:10, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * See WP:MOSNUM: many numbers are written incorrectly, and I've just encountered the first of them. Ordinals are still subject to these rules, so "second" and "first" instead of "2nd" and "1st"
 * Question -- since this is a baseball article, isn't it the case that certain numbers need not be spelled out (e.g., the team won 3-1, not "three to one," and if that is the case where can I find the baseball-specific rules? Tx.  I've made the changes, despite the question.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:38, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * There is not a written set of baseball-specific rules, but the numbers that are not written out are things like statistics and box scores (3–1, as you say, is a perfect example). However, all other instances should follow MOSNUM. KV5  ( Talk  •  Phils ) 11:36, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I've made those changes. Out of curiosity, would the rule be that I have to write "he gave up three hits" rather than be allowed to write "... 3 hits"?--Epeefleche (talk) 16:32, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * In prose, yes, unless it's a comparable quantity, i.e., "He gave up 5 runs on 12 hits". KV5  ( Talk  •  Phils ) 19:14, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * All of the information on his faith should be moved to its own section under "Personal". I also don't think it's necessary to list all of those other Jewish players.
 * What makes http://www.jewishmajorleaguers.com a reliable source?
 * There is nothing that suggests it is a questionable source, it is not a self-published book, zine, website, webforum, or blog, and an established author edits it.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:38, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * While there may be nothing that suggests that it is a questionable source, we need to have proof of a reputation for fact-checking, or it can't be used, especially because this is a BLP. KV5  ( Talk  •  Phils ) 11:36, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The following, all from its home page ... let me know if you need additional information: Jewish Major Leaguers, Inc. is a Boston-based not-for-profit organization with a mission to "...document American Jews in America's Game."  Its work builds on the research of the Jewish Sports Review, Total Baseball, the American Jewish Historical Society, and the National Baseball Hall of Fame. Its first project was a commemorative set of baseball cards, printed in 2003 by Fleer Trading Cards for The American Jewish Historical Society. Its second project was its Hall of Fame Weekend at the Major League Baseball Hall of Fame in August of 2004. The event brought together players, scholars, and fans, and received national press attention.  It produced four subsequent editions of its baseball cards in association with the American Jewish Historical Society, printed by the Upper Deck Company, and licensed by Major League Baseball, the Major League Baseball Players Association, and the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum.  It has also conducted or located more than 25 oral history interviews of former Jewish Major Leaguers, and has made all transcripts available to the Hall of Fame and the Society for American Baseball Research ( "SABR"). It is also collaborating with SABR in its project to ultimately produce and make available brief scholarly biographies of every player in the history of the Game.  Martin Abramowitz, their part-time President and CEO, has been called by Bnai Brith "America's custodian of Jewish baseball memory." He holds a Doctorate in Social Welfare from Brandeis University.--Epeefleche (talk) 16:32, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Works for me. KV5  ( Talk  •  Phils ) 16:44, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "Through April 15, 2009, his .295 batting average placed him 7th on the all-time list (directly ahead of Ron Blomberg) for batting average by Jewish major leaguers." - update this statistic or, more appropriately, roll it back to the end of 2008. Also, "seventh", and you repeat batting average twice in close succession
 * Addressed, with roll back, as suggested.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:05, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The entire draft and college section needs references.
 * Do not use slash notation for statistics; readers who aren't baseball experts will not know what this means.
 * Current reference #13 (minors.baseball-reference.com) doesn't verify the statistic that's sourced to it, and that paragraph needs more sources to begin with.
 * "Kinsler was named to the Midwest League all-star team at shortstop. Baseball America rated him the 11th-best prospect in the minors, the # 8 prospect in the Midwest League, and the # 9 prospect in the Texas League. Kinsler was also named the Rangers' Minor League Player of the Year." - all needs refs
 * "His solid season contributed to the Rangers' decision to trade Alfonso Soriano during the 2005-2006 offseason." - needs ref
 * The 2006 and 2007 seasons need expanding. He played entire seasons; there are entire seasons of information out there. Lots more ordinals through these sections.
 * This is the first group of problems to fix, as well as the referencing issues noted above. Please leave notification here when these are complete so that I can review and move forward. KV5  ( Talk  •  Phils ) 21:18, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

There needs to be a proper citation for the ref link thing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joey Gallo's Homeruns (talk • contribs) 20:41, 14 June 2014 (UTC)