Talk:Ibrox Stadium

Owner Status ?
Taking on board that fans of Rangers are claiming thatbthe club wasnt infact liquidated but the club and assets sold to Sevco5088, Sevco Scotland and then Rangers international, wouldnt then Rangers International be the owners and not Rangers as Rangers where part of the asset purchase just as the stadium was ? Or are you just gonna continue to pretend as you go alongblike yourve done for the past 18 months ? In denial RFC2012.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.180.156.161 (talk) 07:10, 14 January 2014 (UTC) But it clearly states Rangers FC are the erm "owners" in the headline status, now for a moment Ill go along with the so called assertion that Rangers somehow escaped liquidation because of this club and company bs yous made up last year when yous couldnt handle to truth, but even so,given that the club where bought with the stadium how can they own the ground ? Its impossible.as a person who disliked Rangers and dislikes pheonix Rangers aswell, I find it funny, give em enough rope or give them a spade as the cliches go, but Rangers even under your own guise cannot be the rightful owners of the ground.Im sure youll make up some more balony butI know you know and anyone who can read even at the most basic of levels will grasp that (your idea of)angers FC cannot possibly own the stadium. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.183.236.230 (talk) 08:47, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
 * What happened to the ownership of Ibrox (and other Rangers oldco assets) is detailed and referenced in the history section of the article. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 09:11, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure who you are specifying by "yous". I'm not a Rangers fan, if that's what you mean. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 09:29, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Recent overhaul of the Ibrox page and what's needed
I've tried to do a fairly extensive tidy of the page, restructuring it, making various additions and adding citations. Looking at some of the other pages on UK football grounds, I think three things could usefully be added:

1. There needs to be more detailed info on the current capacity of the stands. The figures I've included are estimates. For example, the capacity of the Copland was increased from the original 7,500 when the blue seats were added and seating and passageways realigned.

2. A plan of the stadium would be a valuable addition.

3. Ideally, there would be more on attendances . This could include a season-by-season outline of averages (see Goodison Park, for example). It could also include something about large crowds, and in particular the significant number of 100,000+ attendances. Stockton 12:20, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Modelled after Dortmund stadium?
During my stay in Glasgow I was told that the "new" Ibrox Stadium was architecturally modelled after Dortmund's Westfalenstadion because the planners so liked the layout without the athletics track, which put the supporters very close to the action. (The obvious differences being that Ibrox is built of much nicer looking red bricks instead of dull prefab concrete, and besides has a lower capacaity due to the later expansions of the Dortmund statium.)

Can anybody confirm this? --Cancun771 16:42, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It was originaly modelled on that stadium due to it being the most modern at the time, (i believe)(Monkeymanman (talk) 20:50, 26 November 2009 (UTC))

Need another photo
Although I have an exterior shot of the Copland Road stand (dull), I think it would be better to have an inside view, ideally of gameplay. If anyone has (or can find) a usable one, whether old or new, that would make a great addition. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 20:32, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

How many five star stadia?
"one of only 12 other" - does this mean that there are 13 including Ibrox (in which case "one of only 13 stadiums..." would be better, I think) or one of 12 (in which case "one of only 12 stadiums..." would be better). -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 18:04, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

stadium capacity and records
Reference is needed to the changing physical shape of the stadium, and to its capacity. There needs to be mention of the 118,000+ attendance, and that it is a British (and European?) record for a club league game. From about 1981 (with the completion of the Govan) until circa. 1990, it would have had more seats than any other UK club ground.

Need also to contextualise the 70s/80s redevelopment, and Waddell's response to the Disaster. -- Stockton | Talk 23:00, 04 Jul 2005 (UTC)

Scotland v England matches
According to www.englandstats.com the Scotland v England match on 2 April 1892 was played at Ibrox Park. As the article states that the stadium was opened in 1899, can anyone explain this apparent discrepancy. Was there an earlier stadium, or was Ibrox Park a different place?

As far as I can see, the only other Scotland v England game played here was the ill-fated game on 5 April 1902. Daemonic Kangaroo 06:11, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
 * There was an Ibrox Park, on a site adjacent to the present one, between 1887 and 1899. Opened 5 August 1887 (Rangers 1v8 Preston NE), closed 9 December 1899. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 21:24, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Relaying the pitch
I've removed the reference to re-turfing the pitch in 2007. This isn't really of significance in relation to the stadium's historical development. The pitch has been (and will conttinue to be) relaid countless times. Stockton 12:43, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

UK or not UK
Should the location be left as "Glasgow, Scotland" or "Glasgow, Scotland, UK"


 * I think it's already being left as no UK. Would you like "Europe" tagged on the end as well? - Dudesleeper · Talk 22:13, 25 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Add "The World" as well then...

ARE THE PEO
I saw this pic (http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44337000/jpg/_44337440_ibrox203.jpg) and wondered what the full sentence written in the seats was. Perhaps it may be useful to include the answer in the article. slυмgυм [ ←→ &#93; 13:44, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * "WE ARE THE PEOPLE", which WATP is only too happy to see. - Dudesleeper · Talk 15:03, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Recent changes
Should this article not mention the new LED perimeter advertising, LED scoreboards and digital clock? Bencey (talk) 02:33, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

UEFA five star status, atmosphere
This set of changes isn't productive. The current UEFA status of Ibrox isn't sourced - it was five-star, but nobody's come up with a definitive list of the grounds covered by the new Elite status and Ibrox doesn't have the 70,000 capacity given at UEFA Elite stadium to host a current Champions League final. Furthermore, the stuff about having the atmosphere of the ground is unsourced personal opinion. This should be reverted. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 20:22, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I guess a Celtic fan doesnt like this page
I was looking at this page, after the transfer from the Ranger's page, and noticed that it was scheduled to be deleted in 7 days.....Having been to Ibrox on a vacation from the US, i can say that the comments that were used to ask for the deletion, were purely vindictive, and were in no way, actually talking about the article itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.93.2.57 (talk) 08:29, 8 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Don't worry, I've removed it. It was just pure vandalism rather than a serious attempt have this page deleted. Lord Cornwallis (talk) 14:50, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Home Changing room
Is it true that in the home changing room, they have a picture of The Queen on the wall? The C of E (talk) 19:43, 26 November 2009 (UTC)


 * not anymore, there was a small picture originally i think but not now.(Monkeymanman (talk) 20:45, 26 November 2009 (UTC))
 * If you were ever up in glasgow you could always go on the stadium tour, a very well read rangers historian takes you on it so he would know exactly the circumstances.(Monkeymanman (talk) 00:44, 27 November 2009 (UTC))

ownership of Ibrox
A few facts: Rangers FC is in the process of being liquidated. As part of this, Ibrox was sold to a different and completely independent company called sevco 5088. This company then transferred ownership to Sevco Scotland Ltd, a company that has applied to take the place of Rangers FC as a member of the SFA.

I therefore attempted to update this article by pointing out that "It was the home ground of Rangers F.C. until sold to Sevco 5088 on 14 June 2012" and provided a suitable reference to support the statement.

Yet my change has been reverted, firstly on the basis that it was 'original research', and now, by the same editor, on the basis that "Sevco are applying to SFA to continue Rangers FC membership of the SFA".

Can we be clear that my edit was not original research. Indeed the only original research is the claim made to justify the second revert of my edit!

Whatever club plays football at Ibrox next season, it will not be Rangers FC - that club is being liquidated. I suggest that this aricle needs to be updated to reflect that reality. Regards Fishiehelper2 (talk) 14:14, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
 * You're confusing two different issues: ownership and tenancy. Ownership is strictly concerned with who owns the freehold of Ibrox Stadium - that is current Sevco Scotland Ltd, which is stated in the article and infobox and is referenced. The tenancy is open to question. Until now Rangers FC (the football club, as opposed to a legal personality) has played there. Indeed, Rangers FC played at the original Ibrox Park for some years before the club was incorporated in 1899 (incidentally, the share capital raised by incorporation financed the first reconstruction of Ibrox). We do not yet know who (if anyone) will be tenants of Ibrox next season. We do know that Sevco Scotland is applying to transfer the Rangers FC membership of the SFA to their corporate identity. If that application is successful and the reformed entity gains access to a league, then there is no break in tenancy as far as the football club is concerned. For example, we do not show the change of Leeds United's corporate structure (forced by insolvency) in the Elland Road article. James Morrison (talk) 14:31, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I think you will find that Leeds United were saved from liquidation and not actually liquidated in the end - therefore a different situation from Rangers FC which is being liquidated and now has no hope of salvation as its assets have been sold to a different company. Your point about 'the football club, as opposed to a legal personality' is also spurious - Rangers FC became a limited company in 1899. They were not two separate entities - the club and the company were one! The club was now a company! It is only with liquidation on the horizon that some are arguing that 'the club' is somehow a separate entity. Please note - Sevco 5088 did not buy Rangers FC. Sevco 5088 did not buy 'the club'. Sevco 5088 bought the assets and the business. Ibrox was sold and Rangers FC does not have a tenancy agreement to play there next season (for the obvious reason that Rangers FC is being liquidated). Therefore the article is out of date in suggesting that Ibrox remains the home of Rangers FC. Regards Fishiehelper2 (talk) 14:51, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Protection
Due to the ongoing edit war, I have protected this article for a week, without regard for which version is better. Please use the time to agree a compromise version here. --John (talk) 19:11, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * There is no need for compromise. They are wrong and are guilty of WP:NOR, WP:SYNTH and WP:NPOV. James Morrison (talk) 19:36, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi Jmorrison230582, I could have reverted your recent revert but chose not to as I was aware you had already reverted that same change twice. I would much prefer this could be discussed. I have been an editor for a number of years but fail to understand how the change I made on 6th July and has since been reverted back and forth between you and another editor could possibly go against WP:NOR, WP:SYNTH and WP:NPOV. To be clear, I wanted to change the introduction where it said "It is the home ground of Rangers" to "It is now the home ground of the team referred to as Newco Rangers, the stadium having been bought along with the assets of Rangers FC on 14th June 2012 after the club entered liquidation. "


 * Which part of the proposed change is wrong? The stadium was sold on 14th June to another company? - that clearly happened. The sale of the stadium occured after Rangers FC went into liquidation - that is clearly sourced. The club that is based in Ibrox is now referred to as newco Rangers? - again clearly sourced.


 * That said, in the spirit of compromise, how about we make a very small change? - just change the link from 'Rangers FC' to 'Newco Rangers' and drop all mention of the fact that that Ibrox was sold to a different company on June 14th when Rangers FC entered administration. Therefore, the statement would now read "It is the home ground of Rangers"
 * Regards Fishiehelper2 (talk) 19:54, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * No, because it's misleading and inaccurate. You are POV pushing that "Newco Rangers" is a new CLUB. That has not been determined and indeed the SFA is currently considering an application to transfer the Rangers FC membership to the new company structure. The change in ownership is already reflected in the infobox and article. James Morrison (talk) 20:06, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, that comment is itself misleading: "the SFA is currently considering an application to transfer the Rangers FC membership to the new company structure" - eh, not a new company structure, but a new company entirely! This is not a re-organisation within a holding company seeking to move things about so as to have a new 'corporate structure'.
 * Can I say that you are at least equally POV pushing by insisting that the team now being widely referred to as 'newco Rangers' is the same club. The fact that the ownership of Ibrox is mentioned in the infobox is not the point - the version you prefer still states that Ibrox is the home ground of Rangers FC, a club that is being liquidated. Regards Fishiehelper2 (talk) 20:23, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * A liquidator has not been appointed. James Morrison (talk) 20:38, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * What about | this then? Names the liquidators as 'Malcolm Cohen and James Stephen from financial company BDO'. Regards Fishiehelper2 (talk) 20:42, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The report is inaccurate. They have been provisionally appointed but have not been legally appointed by court order. Check Companies House if you want. James Morrison (talk) 20:57, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll take your word for that. In that case my point above should read 'the version you prefer still states that Ibrox is the home ground of Rangers FC, a club that is entering the liquidation process.' Regards Fishiehelper2 (talk) 21:05, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

The situation is clear. The ground is owned by newco rangers, backed up by well-respected cited sources Rangers newco: Ibrox chairman Malcolm Murray apologises to Scottish football, and saying that 'The report is inaccurate' is WP:NOR. The mainstream media are referring to the club as "Newco Rangers" e.g. just today, and running against this claim is WP:NOR. In order to demonstrate that the stadium is the homeground of "Rangers" rather than "Newco Rangers" will need a single cited source (to avoid WP:SYNTH and WP:NOR), more recent, respectable and authoritative than e.g. Rangers newco: Ibrox chairman Malcolm Murray apologises to Scottish football and related. If such sources are forthcoming I would have no trouble saying the ground is of the club "Rangers", and owned by "newco rangers".--131.111.138.89 (talk) 20:15, 9 July 2012 (UTC)


 * In fact the SPL refer to "Rangers Newco" and not "Rangers", see . It is difficult to find a source more authoritative than the official body overseeing the league to guide us on how to refer to the club. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.138.89 (talk) 20:23, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't see what your point is, given that the article states clearly that the ownership of Ibrox has changed (twice, to be pernickety) since the CVA failure. The dispute is over tenancy, ie what is the name of the team that plays there. I think we should continue to state Rangers FC until we have clear evidence to the contrary. Journalists may refer to personnel of the new company as being officials of "newco Rangers" as shorthand, but we do not have clear guidance yet from the relevant authorities as to the future status of Rangers FC. Therefore any change now would be in violation of WP:CRYSTAL, WP:SYNTH and WP:NOR. For all we know, there may not be any football played at Ibrox in the 2012–13 season (if, say, the SFL clubs reject the application for membership). James Morrison (talk) 20:32, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi James Morrison, even if we continue to describe the club that plays at Ibrox as Rangers FC, the article presently links to Rangers FC rather than Newco Rangers. Of course it is possible that the dispute resolution may lead to a single article for Rangers FC rather than one for the old Rangers and one for the new Rangers, but until that happens, I think we should at least link Rangers FC to Newco Rangers. Otherwise, we are contradicting those two articles. Regards Fishiehelper2 (talk) 22:02, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * That's another silly and irrelevant argument. Those articles are wrong and should be corrected, not this one. James Morrison (talk) 05:48, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * We have a reliable and impartial sources including Rangers newco: Ibrox chairman Malcolm Murray apologises to Scottish football,, for the tenants of Ibrox and the name of the club to be "Newco Rangers". If we are to refer to the tenants and "Rangers FC" we will need even more reliable and recent sources than these else we will suffer from WP:NOR. It would be helpful if you would kindly suggest some suitable sources that refer to the club as "Rangers FC"?--Dingowasher (talk) 18:37, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * None of which refer to the status of Ibrox Stadium or clarify the status of any future club. To state that "newco Rangers" play at Ibrox is a synthesis of sources talking about different issues and using the phrase as a shorthand to avoid confusion. What I am suggesting on this article and the others is to WAIT AND SEE what the outcome is before acting. Instead some editors are jumping the gun and are attempting to establish that this outcome has already been ascertained, when it patently has not. The start of the season will come soon enough and the articles can be updated accordingly then. To do so now is a classic example of crystal-balling. James Morrison (talk) 19:13, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * This is WP:NOR. The references I presented before referred to Newco Rangers as being the tenants of Ibrox. If we want to refer to Rangers FC as being the tenants we need good honest references. Are there any?--Dingowasher (talk) 17:23, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

''Ibrox Stadium is a football stadium located on the south side of the River Clyde, on Edmiston Drive in the Ibrox district of Glasgow. Ibrox is presently the third largest football stadium in Scotland and tenth largest stadium in the United Kingdom, having an all-seated capacity of 51,082.''
 * Suggested compromise

''Ibrox is best known for being the home ground of Rangers FC from 1899. Rangers entered administration in 2012 and were forced to transfer Ibrox and other assets to a new company to continue trading. Ibrox has also hosted the Scotland national football team, particularly when the national stadium Hampden Park was redeveloped in the 1990s. Ibrox also hosted three Scottish domestic cup finals in the same period. It has also been the venue for concerts by major performers, including Frank Sinatra.''

''It was opened as Ibrox Park in 1899, but suffered a major disaster in 1902 when a wooden terrace collapsed. Vast earthen terraces were built in its place, while a main stand, which is now a listed building, was built in 1928. A British record crowd of 118,567 gathered in January 1939 for a league match with Celtic. After the second Ibrox disaster of 1971, Ibrox was largely rebuilt. The vast bowl-shaped terracing was removed and replaced by three rectangular, all-seated stands by 1981. After renovations were completed in 1997, the ground was renamed Ibrox Stadium.''

Comments? James Morrison (talk) 17:59, 11 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for preparing this, seems a fair summary to me. On a unrelated note the original intro and therefore this one don't have any references. If I have the time I'll try to put some in?--Dingowasher (talk) 22:43, 11 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Very clever suggestion. The only bit I suppose could be argued about is whether the use of 'transfer' is appropriate when the assets and business interests were bought by/sold to the new company. Apart from that, can't see anyone really disagreeing. Regards Fishiehelper2 (talk) 23:53, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Refering to the opening paragraph's line: "Rangers entered administration in 2012 and were forced to transfer Ibrox and other assets to a new company to continue trading." This is an article about Ibrox Stadium. There is no need to include the administration of Rangers FC, as it essentially has nothing to do with the stadium as such. If people feel need to do so, why not - with all due respect - do it appropriately? The problems of the club have been documented on the respective wikipedia page. "Rangers" were not "forced" to transfer Ibrox. First, if anything it was the "old company" who did anything (or rather the administrators after the failed CVA), second, they were not "forced" and surely not to continue "trading". What did continue "trading" anyway, Ibrox, Rangers? The facts are pretty simple and can be found in the administrator's reports - the legally bound documents on the whole affair. The assetts of the "club" were sold from the old corporate entity (then "The Rangers Football Club plc", now "RFC2012 plc") to the new corporate entity (now The Rangers Football Club Limited). The "club" never left Ibrox Stadium. Suggested replacement (there are enough references to Rangers already, so anyone interested in the administration or newco debate can look it up there):

"When Rangers FC's parent company entered administration in 2012, ownership of Ibrox Stadium and other assets of the club were transferred to the club's new parent company."Ynnis (talk) 09:17, 4 October 2012 (UTC) --
 * The use of the term "parent company" is grossly misleading. The company was Rangers FC. That company is now hopelessly insolvent. A new investor came along and bought the "Rangers" business and assets (including Ibrox), using a new company to hold their ownership rights. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 10:11, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * There is no company called Rangers FC. No old nor new company. One may switch "parent company" to "company running Rangers FC", but the way it is written now gives the misleading notion that there are two clubs, and one selling or transferring the stadium to another, which is not the case. The trading bit is not explicit enough either, as written above. I see where the sentiment is coming from, but as has been said, "Rangers FC" did not transfer anything, nor was it forced to. Ynnis (talk) 15:01, 4 October 2012 (UTC)--
 * I don't agree, although I also think that the liquidation event doesn't need to be in the lead of this article any more, given that the situation has stabilised. When that text was first written it was not clear whether the new Rangers company was going to be granted an SFA licence, or admitted to a league. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 15:46, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Having thought about it, I actually think that there is no need to actually make a note of the administration of the club or any transfer of assets. Rangers FC have been owners as well as tenants of Ibrox Stadium all along, whether under the oldco, or under the newco. If you look at other football grounds - not least in Scotland - the owner is more often than not given as e.g. Motherwell FC, Celtic FC, or Dundee United FC. When in fact Celtic Park is owned by one of the two parent companies of the club. I don't see any reason to make a difference here. Ynnis (talk) 23:02, 4 October 2012 (UTC)--
 * I agree that given the way things look now it is not such an important issue, as the insolvency and change of legal ownership has had no physical effect on the stadium. But it is still worth noting in the body of the article what happened to Ibrox as a result of such a major event in Rangers FC history. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 07:44, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

So let's change the line to something more appropriate and not misleading, no double-club, nor any enforced selling et al: "When Rangers FC entered administration in 2012, ownership of Ibrox Stadium and other assets of the club were transferred to the club's new parent company, so that Rangers FC remained owners of ground."Ynnis (talk) 17:10, 5 October 2012 (UTC)--
 * That's not accurate. Here's what Charles Green said at the time he purchased the business and assets of Rangers: "Following the formal decision of the creditors' meeting at Ibrox Stadium today, the consortium I represent has fulfilled its agreement with the administrators and has completed the acquisition of the business and assets of The Rangers Football Club plc. The transfer of the business and assets to a new company structure has taken effect immediately and the new company is The Rangers Football Club." Jmorrison230582 (talk) 17:46, 5 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I think you need to read up on what a parent company actually is. For either Rangers company to be a "parent" company, there would need to be a subsidiary company called Rangers FC. There isn't. To illustrate, the parent company of Rangers when David Murray owned the club was Murray International Holdings. Murray (through MIH) sold Rangers (its subsidiary) to Craig Whyte, who set up a new parent company to acquire it. As per Charles Green's statement above, after Rangers became insolvent he bought the business and assets and formed a new company to own the assets (including Ibrox) and operate the business. It's a fairly simple distinction which I think you may be misinformed about. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 17:58, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Still, if you have problems with "parent company", the current article line mentioned above contains equally wrong statements about Rangers FC "selling" or rather "being forced to" sell Ibrox to the newco to "continue trading". This needs to be changed, as it is factually wrong. I try this one then:

"When Rangers Football Club plc entered administration in 2012, ownership of Ibrox Stadium and other assets of the club were transferred to the club's new owners, The Rangers Football Club Limited (previously: Sevco Scotland Limited)." Thus you get the old onwers in, the new owners and no misleading notions about Rangers FC "being forced" to do something "to continue trading". After all, the newco started trading when buying the football club, while the club itself never stopped to be there. How about you make a suggestion for that line if this ain't satisfactory? Ynnis (talk) 13:24, 9 October 2012 (UTC)--
 * suggestion to both of you, read teh sources and use cite with quote and put wha thte sources says, i have breifly reviewed both your arguments and some of the statements and you are both worng and right, this comes back down to the problem of when rangers where describe asa new club and the same club, the sources are conrdicitng each othera bit. the club was not transfer from one company to the other it was bought by the other one the sources are in pretty much argeement on that so i suggest you both put forward yoru propoused changes with using cite and quite to verify what your are saying Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 14:53, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I would still use my last replacement suggestion as it gives old and new "owners" in a correct fashion. One may add a link to a Rangers statement referring to a judges' note clearly saying that the club is a different entity than the company owning it: "Lord Nimmo Smith has said that Rangers FC is a recognisable entity which continued in existence notwithstanding the change in ownership. ... He also stated that Rangers FC, the club, includes its owner and operator. The Commission has in effect ruled that Rangers and its history did not die on 14 June despite numerous reports to the contrary. You got it from two official sources, what more can be asked for? In any case, the current statement about someone being forced to sell something to continue operating is acausal in various ways. Ynnis (talk) 10:34, 5 November 2012 (UTC)--

I just noted that the spot of "bother" has already been removed and replaced by a more appropriate paragraph. Ynnis (talk) 09:53, 6 November 2012 (UTC)--

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