Talk:Ichirō Hatoyama

Merge?
There are two articles about the same man.72.253.239.151 (talk) 20:19, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

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External links modified
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Action during the war
According to Unit 731: Other suspected Japanese war criminals who were never indicted include three postwar prime ministers: Hatoyama Ichirō (1954–1956), Kishi Nobusuke (1957–1960), and Ikeda Hayato (1960–1964). citing Drea 2006. And yet this article says nothing about that. It actually says nothing about Ichirō Hatoyama's life during the war. Should we mention it? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 08:46, 7 August 2023 (UTC)


 * What are you talking about? The article already provides many details about what Hatoyama was up to during the wartime in the 1940s. It also describes his purge by the occupation. Do you have anything specific in mind that needs to be mentioned? --Ash-Gaar (talk) 12:39, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @Ash-Gaar I'm a simple reader. I read one article saying he may be war criminal and then skimming through his article I can only ses "pre war" and "post war" sections: why not a section about his life during the war? Why do some consider him a war criminal? This is what I find surprising. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 12:49, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay, I see, so you simply...did not read the article. And still haven't read it, apparently. --Ash-Gaar (talk) 14:08, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I answered on my phone, so no, I didn't read more: did I do something wrong for you to be so rude? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 14:22, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi @Ash-Gaar,
 * I read the article again and it's still unclear to me what Hatoyama did during 1942–1945 that could lead to suspect him of being a war criminal. I don't understand either why the 1942 election paragraph is in the "Pre-war political career". Do you have more details by any chance? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 15:16, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * He was never a suspected war criminal as he was not a military officer and actually opposed the war. But he was purged during the occupation. --Ash-Gaar (talk) 16:28, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks. We have a reliable source (Edward J. Drea) suspecting him of being a war criminal so it's noteworthy. We should include this somewhere. Even though I agree with you that it's weird. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 18:01, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but I think Drea was just referring to the fact that he was purged by the occupation. However, that was not over his wartime activities but rather his support for the military in the late 1920s and various writings seen as sympathetic to Nazism, which made MacArthur see him as inappropriate choice for Prime Minister. Unlike Kishi, he was never imprisoned for suspected war crimes. I've never seen anything other than this throwaway line from Drea where Hatoyama was described as a "war criminal." Ash-Gaar (talk) 00:35, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * And we haven't even mentioned Ikeda, who wasn't even purged at all. He served in the cabinet during the occupation, so clearly even the occupation authorities did not suspect him of war crimes. Given that they purged no less than 201,815 government officials, it's unlikely they would have overlooked Ikeda. Moreover Ikeda was a protege of Yoshida and was part of the pro-American "peace faction" trying to stop the war. So it's crazy to say he was suspected of war crimes, and I really have no idea where Drea got this information from. Since Drea provides no footnotes, I don't think we can make much of this throwaway line all on its own, in the absence of some sort of corroborating source or evidence. --Ash-Gaar (talk) 00:55, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Searching for "Ichiro Hatoyama" and "Hayato Ikeda" in combination with "war crimes" and "war criminal" turns up absolutely nothing at all except for the one sentence in the Drea introduction. --Ash-Gaar (talk) 01:13, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree. What about this document? Even if rescinded, if the facts and speeches enumerated are true, some of them are worth mentioning in the article. On the other hand, according to The Hatoyama Dynasty: "Ichiro was filled with anger against right-wing politics and with despair for the failing political parties and constitutional democracy. Ichiro opposed the military by means of political writing. Ichiro wrote in a leading monthly magazine Chuokoron in January 1936, “I feel as if I am a bystander of politics. Liberalism and parliamentarianism are being pushed back by dictatorial forces. It might be advantageous for politicians to go along with the current trend, rather than challenging it; however, I cannot ingratiate myself with the military as others do. I believe in the philosophy that one should realize self-actualization according to self-imposed rules, rejecting intervention from others . . . It is very dangerous for the Japanese to try to imitate Hitler and Mussolini. It is human nature to seek freedom and it is a mistake to oppress it.”". He also wrote: "the forces of fascism are suppressing party politics, limiting the power of the parliament, and rejecting the cabinet formed by political parties. All three cabinets—of Inukai, Saito, and Okada—were overthrown by such forces. The Inukai and Okada cabinets were obviously 66 / the hatoyama dynasty directly overthrown by fascists (bloody coups d’état), whereas the Saito cabinet was overthrown by the fascists’ conspiracy. Although fascists might not have been directly involved in the overthrow of the Saito cabinet, it is a public knowledge that they were behind it. Nevertheless, party politics is not dead and will reemerge . . . Hitler and Mussolini are dictatorial utopians of the right wing, whereas Stalin is a dictatorial utopian of the left wing" (pp. 65–66)
 * Then p. 85: "In turn, the SCAPIN 919 Section c. accuses Ichiro of endorsing Hitlerite totalitarian mobilization of labor. It refers to passages from the book, Sekai no kao (Face of the world). The book was based on a journal of Ichiro’s trip to Europe. However, Baerwald, a purge officer, states that “[h]is admiration for Hitler’s labor policy is really irrelevant” to the purge criteria and that “the case against Hatoyama leaves much to be desired.” [...] Finally, the SCAPIN 919 Section e. claims that Ichiro “has posed as an anti-militarist.” In reality, it was hardly possible to pose as an anti-militarist. The military regime’s control was such that once one uttered an anti-militarist remark, one had an immediate reaction. In that situation, one could not “pose” as an anti-militarist. It was easier and safer to pose as a pro-militarist, as most of Ichiro’s colleagues in the HR did."
 * And pp. 92–93: "However, a question remains: Why would Ichiro, who had denounced Hitler and Mussolini publicly in the article “Jiyushugisha no techo” (“a note of a liberalist”) in January 1936, praise fascist leaders in Sekai no kao (Face of the world)? The answer is simple: Ichiro did not write the book. The book was actually written by Yamaura Kanichi, former reporter of Jiji Shimpo. Few English literature mentions this fact."
 * So I suggest adding:
 * His 1936 anti-fascist writings
 * His trip to Europe from July 1937 to February 1938 to attend the International Congress of Parliamentarians Alliance in Paris. He met British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain, and, at Konoe’s request, Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini, Japan’s Axis Alliance partners. The journal of his trip (Sekai no kao) was important material to purge him in 1946 although Ichiro did not write it and the book was actually written by Yamaura Kanichi.
 * The reasons for the purge and their total irrelevance
 * What do you think? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 07:39, 9 August 2023 (UTC)