Talk:Identity documents in the United States/Archive 1

WELCOME TO THE WEDGE

 * (cur) (last) 23:18, 5 March 2006 Coolcaesar (Editing out WAY TOO MUCH INFORMATION (most readers are NOT INTERESTED in a treatise on every type of American identity document))
 * I'm curious where your evidence for 'most readers' comes from since this discussion page was blank, I'm curious when 'most readers are not interested' became a reason for someone pruning an article with most readers being intelligent enough to skip over things for themselves if they're not interested, and finally, since the article is precisely about American identity documents, surely this is *precisely* the place for detailed information. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to organise the page so the first paragraph of each section has a lucid summary and the 'too much information' is towards the end of each section or in an annexe, or even move it all here, where its relevance can be discussed? Just wiping stuff out seems a bit casual. SleekWeasel 09:41, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree, that information about which documents American has is useless because it does not have anything to do with the absence of a national ID. I as a German do have a national ID card but I have most of the mentioned documents with me as well. --84.142.162.92 09:24, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The whole point is that U.S. citizens don't have a national I.D. card, and it says that in the first paragraph. In the absence of a national I.D. card, many identity documents serve that purpose.  The primary ones of birth certificate, driver's license, social security card, and passport are focused on.  --Pesco 23:15, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Missing Id
The Library of Congress issues Reader Identification Cards prior to allowing access to their reading rooms. This seems worth noting as an example of Federally issued Id. --69.12.141.102 03:11, 11 May 2007 (UTC)


 * It doesn't seem like that kind of card would be used for law enforcement to prove identity. --Pesco 23:15, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

The Federal Employee ID's for non-DOD also should be mentioned. They are federally issued identity documents, and carry the same notice as military ID's. (and recently appear to have gone to the CAC model as well.) I used mine in air travel, as at the time, I lacked any other valid ID besides SS Card. Also, some states allow hunting/fishing licenses and voter ID cards to meet the requirements for identity documents; Alaska does, at least for voting and non-traffic police stops. Wfh (talk) 12:21, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Citation Needed?
How do you cite the fact that the penal codes do NOT make it illegal to not carry an ID card?

Penal codes function thusly: (1) They declare something to be unlawful, thus doing that thing becomes unlawful and potentially punishable. (2) If an action or thing is not covered by existing penal codes or other laws, even by extension; the non-covered thing is considered to be legal for all intents and purposes. (3) rarely is it declared that something is LEGAL to do, since that would be redundant to item 2. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.189.229.131 (talk) 08:47, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
 * By citing a secondary source which says that it is legal. Seems straightforward enough to me.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.88.41.147 (talk) 23:55, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Consider this: "There is no legal requirement that Americans must wear flower pots on their heads at all times.[citation needed]" Would it be reasonable to demand a citation?  Do you think you'll find "a secondary source which says that it is legal" [to not wear a flower pot]?  Of course not.  I'm removing that "citation needed".  TresÁrboles (talk) 17:57, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Social Security Card Illustration
To use an example of a SS card in this article is appropiate, however I feel that the identity found on that example is rather less so. Will (talk) 09:33, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Need for discussion as to how a birth certificate can be the basis for a de-facto ID card (such as a driver's license)
It has been many years since I obtained my first driver's license. But, as I recall, the only "proof" of my identity I needed was my birth certificate.

It may have worked then, but in this day and age the chain of identification is clearly flawed: anyone with a certified copy of a birth certificate for a person of similar age, sex, and racial characteristics can walk into a DMV and obtain a photo ID for the person named in the BC.  Can someone find a discussion of this issue and fashion it into a section in this article?Terry Thorgaard (talk) 20:18, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

The above discussion begs the question as to how one might obtain another's birth certificate. In most states, I believe that a certified copy can be issued to the person named in the BC or that person's parents, or legal guardian. If the person is no longer a minor (and a parent is not present to vouch for the person), and has no other photo ID, how would one prove himself or herself to be that person? Terry Thorgaard (talk) 20:33, 9 February 2015 (UTC)


 * I've looked at some regulations for a few states for obtaining new driver licenses. For applicants up to about age 21 (depending on the state) who go to the DMV with their parents, a birth certificate and a form filled out by the parent will be enough. But for older applicants, it usually isn't that easy. The state will have a list of acceptable documents. Down at the bottom of the list it will usually say something to the effect that the applicant should bring everything they have and the DMV personnel will make a judgement.


 * As for obtaining the birth certificate, some will allow you to order through an on-line company like VitalChek so it will be sufficient if the requester is named as the baby or a parent on the birth certificate and the person can pay for the certificate using a credit card in the same name. Other states like CA require either the applicant to apply in person or send in a notarized request. Some states line VT will send a birth certificate to anyone who pays the required fee. Jc3s5h (talk) 21:55, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, JC. So it's essentially how I figured, for adults, anyway. A person appearing at a vital statistics office for a BC could be required to execute a notarized affidavit, but absent any ID, how is the notary to know that the person is who (s)he claims to be? Someone desiring to establish a false identity apparently has a loop-hole a mile wide. It appears to me that BCs (or actually, certificates of live birth) should be required to have the baby's fingerprints (or footprints). Terry Thorgaard (talk) 20:18, 10 February 2015 (UTC)


 * As for what to call a birth certificate, they are under the control of the various states. Whatever the state decides to title it (birth certificate, report of a birth, certificate of live birth, etc.) is what it's called. I think it is likely states have changed the title of their forms from time to time, so each state probably has several names for it, depending on how old it is. Jc3s5h (talk) 20:54, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Personal Identity and the Motor Vehicle
I think the United States are unique among nations in that in the US the state agency which administer motor vehicles has become the de facto agency which issues personal identity documents. This fact should be highlighted, because it is unusual in the international comparison. One could speculate that the historical reason for this development has to do with an ongoing tendency in the US to question the legitimacy of the (federal) state itself. -- Velocipedus (talk) 20:18, 6 January 2017 (UTC)