Talk:Idi Amin/Archive 1

Where was he?
I thought no-one knew where he was??? well according a book dated 1996 no-one knows where he is. :-s —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fonzy (talk • contribs) 19:04, 25 April 2003

Birthdate
The article January 1 places his birth date to January 1, 1925. Could that be correct? - Andres —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.35.249.27 (talk • contribs) 17:21, 25 June 2003

Thoughts and prayers?
Anyone interested in adding his/her thoughts/prayers for Idi Amin on this July 21 as he lies critically ill in a coma? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172 (talk • contribs) 02:25, 21 July 2003


 * Would "may you rot in hell" count? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roadrunner (talk • contribs) 02:29, 21 July 2003


 * Come on? It's big daddy! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172 (talk • contribs) 02:43, 21 July 2003


 * Oh, then there would be a long queue for expressing "may you rot in hell" sentiments? At least when he dies, someone will publish a birthdate... -- Someone else 02:53 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * Too bad he's in a coma, now there's no point to having the families of all the people he killed come by and take a whack at him. It's very sad that brutes like him get away with their crimes, while the families of his victims have to live with their loss forever. Stan 13:30 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * It's unfortunate that Dante is no longer around. I suspect only he could imagine an appropriate eternal dwelling for the ""Lord of All the Birds, Beasts and Fishes" and the "Last King of Scotland". -- Someone else 00:18 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * I guess I'll just echo everyone else's thoughts. May pain be brought on him, slowly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.68.66.201 (talk • contribs) 12:52, 22 July 2003

Asians, genocide
"When they [Asians] refused [to leave], Amin's forces went on a widespread campaign of genocide"

I've taken this out because (a) the expulsion left too few for widespread anything; (b) I know of no evidence to support the charge of genocide against those who remained; and (c) you don't have to throw every allegation you can think of at someone to make a plausible case that they were mad, bad or both. Graculus 16:43 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * Much the same goes for the overall death toll: while 300,000 seems to be commonly offered, figures range from 100,000 to 500,000, with the average (for what it's worth, which isn't a lot) probably nearer 200,000. Of course nobody was really counting, least of all the pundits who merrily throw these figures about. I've relaced "executed" as implying a level of organisation and precision that simply wasn't there. 195.92.67.71 07:31 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Removed text
24.65.52.97 removed the following passage:

"His dark black skin, routund apperance and ridiculously over-decorated military uniforms made him seem clownish and amusing to much of the world, and to the racist regimes in South Africa and Rhodesia a clear example that native Africans were incapable of governing themselves."

Should it be put back? Den fjättrade ankan 23:10 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * I put it back. It's accurate. Idi Amin was a moron, and he had dark black skin. The two are not connected, if that is what he fears is being alleged. user:J.J. 23:50, 5 August 2003 (UTC)


 * Dark black skin can be expected from a president of Uganda. Do you have evidence that he had particularly dark skin even by Ugandan standards? --Wik 00:23, Aug 6, 2003 (UTC)


 * We're not talking about Ugandan standards, if you look at the context of the remark it is made refering to outsider perceptions of Amin. The fact that his skin was so dark was certainly a key part of the western perception of him, and is well illustrated in the caricatures and editorial cartoons of the time. user:J.J. 07:49, 11 August 2003 (UTC)


 * Cartoons naturally focus on and amplify a person's most distinguishing features, that doesn't prove much. But wasn't it more his behaviour than his skin colour that made him seem amusing to much of the world? --Wik 20:26, Aug 11, 2003 (UTC)


 * You keep focusing on the one word instead of the context. The paragraph in its entirety is relevant and accurate. It's time to stop getting so politically correct and paranoid everytime race is mentioned. user:J.J. 02:27, 12 August 2003 (UTC)


 * It is paragraphs like this one that make Wikipedia look more like a discussion forum than an encyclopedia. Here is what is wrong with it:
 * We are talking about a man who caused the death of at least a hundred thousand men, women and children. In the face of a human tragedy of such proportions, it is not simply "politically incorrect" to refer to the person responsible for these crimes as "quite charming", it is an insult to the victims of his regime. If you had lost your daughter or your wife to this murderer, what would you think when reading this paragraph? For this reason alone, it is entirely out of place, inappropriate and unprofessional.
 * "Dark black skin" and "rotund appearance" are stereotypical, utterly racist descriptions, especially when followed up by "made him seem clownish and amusing". A "rotund", "dark black" person automatically becomes "clownish and amusing", according to this sentence. Would you write the same about a US congressman? "Newt Gingrich, whose pale white skin and rotund appearance made him seem clownish and amusing.."
 * The racism continues in the last paragraph: "a clear example that native Africans were incapable of governing themselves". Because the military ruler of Uganda has dark black skin, is overweight and wears overdecorated uniforms (as many military rules before and after him have done) "native Africans were incapable of governing themselves"? This time the racism is hidden in attribution to other racists, but I doubt that these regimes ever actually argued on that basis. More likely, they pointed to Amin's disastrous policies and his murderous regime as evidence that the white people were needed to keep the "order".
 * JJ, I realize you are a political cartoonist and as such may view other human beings as potential caricatures. This paragraph, however, is unprofessional, false, devoid of meaningful content and utterly inappropriate. That does not mean that there are not aspects of Amin's reception worth writing about. Yes, Amin was portrayed as a clown in western media, and reporters ignored his crimes and instead focused on his eccentricities. Amin was, after all, a longtime ally of the United States, so the tens of thousands slaughtered could be overlooked. But what a charming, amusing guy he was, ha ha!&mdash;Eloquence 02:48, Aug 12, 2003 (UTC)


 * I think the point and conext of the paragraph continues to be overlooked. Everything that was said in that paragraph is true. At around the time Idi Amin became a prominant figure, there was much mocking and joking about his regime in the west. And like it or not, rightly or wrongly, a great deal of it was racist in tone. People saw photos of this fat little man, with really dark skin, and his crazy uniforms, and they thought it was funny. Many probably thought it was strange to see an African like him "trying" to rule a country.  I've read repeatedly that the racist regimes in Southern Africa used his eccentricites as justification for their policies. They said people like Amin proved that Africans were too childish and stupid to rule themselves. It doesn't make me racist to point this out. On the contrary, I am trying to show how an underlying and often patronizing racism was to blame for the easy ride Amin got for many years.
 * And like it or not, Idi Amin could be a charming fellow, and he was pretty entertaining at times. He would make jokes, and jump into the pool with his clothes on, and drive his sportscar around, play the accordion, and do other crazy stunts to amuse reporters and other observers. People can be charming and evil. To indicate otherwise is foolish, and makes the article into just a flat criticism against Amin, instead of a multi-deminsional profile that focuses on different sides of his personality, and various perceptions thereof. user:J.J. 17:55, 12 August 2003 (UTC)


 * This is all very vague and unspecific. Show me citations, and we can talk about including these claims in attributed form. Describing a murderer as "quite charming", without attributing this description, is not neutral, nor is the rest of the paragraph, which goes so far to attribute its claims "to much of the world".&mdash;Eloquence 23:05, Aug 12, 2003 (UTC)


 * I fail to understand the basic logic here. If a man is a killer, therefore he can never be charming? This makes no sense. Do all killers have to fit a certain stereotype? Perhaps you should watch the excellent DVD doccumentary General Idi Amin Dada which shows the many sides of this dictator's personality, and how he interacted with amused reporters. I'm not arguing a freak position here. I'm sure anyone who lived through the time period can back up what I'm saying. user:J.J. 06:59, 13 August 2003


 * No, the logic is not that "a killer can never be charming", but that the claim that a killer is charming needs to be attributed to its adherents because the killer's victims (survivors and family members) would find the claim preposterous.&mdash;Eloquence 10:08, Aug 13, 2003 (UTC)


 * Victim or not, if you find the claim preposterous then you have a poor grasp of human nature. GrahamN 02:43, 17 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * I've got to come down more on J.J.'s side of this dispute. The wording of the paragraph in question could conceivably be tweaked so as to not provoke undue offense from the victims of Idi Amin, but if other governments  justified their apathy to the carnage in Uganda in part as a result of Idi Amin's efforts to look buffoonish and harmless, then it seems to me that the man was crazy like a fox.  Just look at the stuff that George W. Bush gets away with because popular belief holds that he's too stupid to know better.  In any event, I think Newt Gingrich is a poor example of a clownish-looking white man; Sorrell Booke is probably a better example.  (Casting directors may know things that Eloquence is loath to admit.)  Anyway, I support re-inclusion of the paragraph, but preferably rewritten to emphasize that Amin perhaps deliberately cultivated a blundering image for foreign consmption over any particular physical characteristics that may or may not have helped to form that image in the first place. Branden 05:47, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * I did my best to add somewhat of a brief compromise passage, where I mention his goofiness, and eccentric interests, but also how it hid an "inner brutality". user:J.J. 02:52, 3 April 2004 (UTC)

C-in-C year?
Greenman: Where do you get C-in-C 1970 from? My sources say 1966, in return for backing Obote against the Kabaka. Graculus 11:21 26 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * Here's one source for the date, though most references don't seem to have dates, so I've got my doubts: - Mail and Guardian - Greenman 09:34, 12 August 2003 (UTC)

Date and place of birth
The CNN news report states "Amin was 80, Ugandan officials said, although other sources had him born in 1925. " So should we put "1923 or 1925"? --Jiang 07:36, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * This really should go without saying, but if he was 80 at his death, it doesn't mean that he was born in 1923. It means there would be a 62.5% probability that he was born in 1923, and a 37.5% probability that he was born in 1922. But the Ugandan officials here are most likely just giving a round figure. His birth date is simply not known. Surely he didn't know it himself. "About 1925" is the best you can say. --Wik 23:35, Aug 16, 2003 (UTC)


 * Please modify my footnote instead of removing it in its entirety. --Jiang 02:08, 17 August 2003 (UTC)


 * I added a note about the absence of birth records. I don't think the comment of the Ugandan officials is relevant at all, since they can hardly know more about the matter than Amin himself did. See : "Like many African leaders including Mr. Nyerere and Jomo Kenyatta of Kenya, Idi Amin never knew the date of his birth. According to his army documents he was born around 1925 in a remote northwestern region near the borders of Sudan and the Congo." --Wik 02:48, Aug 17, 2003 (UTC)

"Whimsical savagery"
Well, now I know why Newt Gingrich looks funny, thanks. Here is a news article about Amin using the phrase "whimsical savagery", an excellent turn of phrase. I suppose that copyvio makes it ineligible for use in the article. StinKerr 23:18, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC)

His birthdate, yet again...
It seems to me that the birthdate issue seems to be going in circles. What is the source for the January 1, 1925 date. I think a safe alternative would be to put up (born. 1924 or 1925). It would cover most of the dates given by commonly available sources. If there is a reliable source for the January 1 date, fine. But otherwise... -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 13:52, 17 August 2003 (UTC)


 * Yes, maybe I shouldn't have added the birthdate. But, I found these pages that indicate his birthdate as January 1 ( we aren't talking about the year but the DATE, right? ):
 * 
 * 
 * We have it on the January 1st page, too - and it was added long time before my intervention here )
 * 
 * 
 * That's what I found .. webkid 14:40, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * There is a disturbing possibility that the January 1 stems from someones database which contains the ages of prominent people. If there was no known date for updating the number of years in the "age" category, a natural point for triggering the incrementing of age in years would presumably be January 1. I really don't know if that is the case, but it does give me pause. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogo-stick 06:09, Aug 19, 2003 (UTC)


 * OK, there's a possibility that he wasn't born on January 1, and that's why I won't go on arguing about this. webkid 07:43, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * There is some dispute regarding Amin's date and place of birth. Many sources say he was born near Koboko. This wikipedia article seems to be one of the few that claims he was born in Kampala. Regarding his date of birth, all that can be said is that he was born in the mid-1920s. I have therefore set his date to circa 1925. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ezeu (talk • contribs) 07:59, 12 July 2005

Moved here from RC patrol
"Idi Amin Deleted sections diff"

Sennheiser! 14:12, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Idi Amin: very black(?), charming dictator(?)
So Amin was dark, or darker than some Ugandans as is characteristic of many northern Ugandans in comparisson to other Ugandans. What's the issue that is trying to be established here. I do not think there is any relationship between the contrast of one's skin and savagery. Adolf Hitler who killed 5 million Jews, was of a much lighter complexion than many human beings (and Idi Amin). So what is the relationship or point being raised here?

Secondly, Is there any such thing as 'dark black'? I am an African(Ugandan) and you may refer to me as black or brown. I am actually dark brown. I also happen to be of a lighter complexion than some Ugandans(and Idi Amin),as is characteristic of Ugandans from western Uganda where I come from.

The fact is we all agree that Idi Amin was a savage and probably mad who killed many people, by the standards and ethics of today, however Uganda at the time like many other African countries and former colonies, was coming out of a system similar to the feudalism of 9-15th century Europe in which leaders held absolute power. Would these leaders be seen to be carrying out genocide in their times, since many of them supressed oppositions in ways which were very similar to those of Amin, in terms of how many people they killed? And how was this in any way proportional or relative to the amount of dark pigmentation cells in their skins.

Denis Mutabazi(Student)

XSHATO@YAHOO.COM —Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.14.246.3 (talk • contribs) 27 December 2004


 * To Denis Mutabazi - Hitler killed 6 million Jews, not 5. ...never forget. Loomis51 23:05, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Military ranks
While admittedly a life-long civilian, the following passage doesn't make sense to me:

"Amin joined the King's African Rifles of the British colonial army as a private in 1946, rising to the rank of lieutenant after seeing action during the Mau Mau revolt in Kenya. He was considered a skilled, but somewhat overeager, soldier, and developed a reputation for cruelty. He rose through the ranks, reaching sergeant-major before being made an effendi, the highest rank possible for a Black African in the British army."

A lieutenant is a Commissioned officer, & thus of higher rank than a sergeant-major (an NCO). Thus it appears to me that Idi Amin went from private to an officer rank, then was demoted to sergeant-major, then was promoted to effendi (some kind of sub-lieutenant grade officer?). But there is no explanation for this demotion in the article (his military career in the KAR appears to be exemplary), so did someone make a mistake here, & Idi Amin actually became a corporal & not a lieutenant? Or was he a receive a field promotion to lieutentant due to heavy officer casualties? -- llywrch 04:10, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

"Big Daddy"?
Can anyone verify his title of "Big Daddy"??? Comatose51 22:10, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Big Daddy is not a title. It is a nickname. Ezeu 21:06, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

His title?
I believe his title is His Excellency President for Life, Field Marshal Al Hadji Doctor Idi Amin, VC, DSO, MC, Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Sea, and Conqueror of the British Empire in Africa in General and Uganda in Particular. Shall we include this? &rarr;I&ntilde;g&#333;lemo&larr;  talk 05:29, 2005 Apr 26 (UTC)


 * Yes. Wizzy&hellip; &#9742;   13:37, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)

Categories
I was amused to come across Idi Amin in Category:Field Marshals since this appears to be one of the many honours he awarded himself. Perhaps he should also be in Category:Scottish monarchs? Leithp 15:09, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

Undisorganized
Undisorganized (if George can make up words so can I) this talk page. Note that there may be some disparity vis-à-vis chronoloical order of comments. Some comments removed. Ezeu 16:25, 8 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Note to anyone reading this: I've undone these changes. All old talk restored in chronological order. Chris Cunningham 14:48, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

The other story
Once in a while someone comes and adds comments about Idi Amin's erratic behavior with references to roumours (eg. cannibalism), his rediculous titles and other bizarr aspects of this hedious dictator. Usually these additions are removed to keep the article objective (I have done so as well), which (paradoxically) whitewashes his brutality. I think we need to include these aspects into the article. Why not a subheading where we make known some of the intresting things about Amin, eg. the above mentioned, but also that he married abnormally many wives, proclaimed himself Field Marshal and conquerer of the British Empire (etc), arranged motor rallies (which he won because no one dared to beat him), had white men carry him around on a throne (quite funny if you ask me), offered to send food aid for the UK, -- but also some of the good things he did, like enhance sports in Uganda, promote the fight against apartheid (Amin, bless his soul, wanted African states to attack South Africa). It should also be mentioned that he was overbearingly huge, not only in personality, but also in size. Also, interestingly, many of Idi Amin's friends and collaborators have recently been released from prison, having served time for their crimes, and many of them have given interviews for the Ugandan newspaper The monitor giving accounts of a naive, well meaning, albeit not entirely cohorent Amin.
 * (Conqueror of the British Empire was a title Amin gave himself, along with the Victoria Cross and the Military Cross, part of his obsession with showing himself equal or superior to Queen Elizabeth II - who had failed to accept his invitation to visit him in Uganda.)

--Ezeu 23:27, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Impromptu poll
Was Idi Amin's regime a totalitarian dictatorship?
 * Yes --Ezeu 03:48, 2 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Ezeu, he was as vile as they come, but his power base was far too percarious to develop into something political scientists would classify as a "totalitarian" regime. By the way, these classifications cannot not be decided by a poll of Wikipedia editors seeking to assert that "Idi Amin was a dog." Please review Cite your sources, No original research, and Neutral Point of View. 172 | Talk 05:19, 2 October 2005 (UTC)


 * A poll is not the way Wikipedia works. Stating that Idi Amin was a dictator (totalitarian or not) is not a neutral perspective. Wizzy&hellip; &#9742;   07:45, 2 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Ah yes, but if you find a source that says he was, then we can add that such and such say that he was a dictator. - Ta bu shi da yu 09:29, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Religion?
I'm just wondering there's no mention of Amin's religious beliefs but considering the fact that he has a muslim name and had close relations to the Saudi's and PLO and so on, and lived in Saudi Arabia, I always assumed he was Muslim. Can anyone tell me if he was, and secondly, was he a very devout one?

Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.26.41.172 (talk • contribs) 14:31, 4 January 2006


 * He was a muslim, but not very devout. He became devout after being tossed out. Omoo 23:41, 24 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Though his faith was not so important on a personal level, Amin certainly used his claim to being a Muslim for political purposes. After Amin alienated Britain with the expulsion of the Asians he turned toward the Muslim countries esp. Libya for economic assistance.  Along with this move came a promise to Islamicize Uganda, an incredible suggestion if he were not Muslim himself.  I have also read that his faith may have been one of the reasons that he never received any education since Muslims were discriminated against in this respect; this cannot be confirmed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.150.48.194 (talk • contribs) 05:31, 3 March 2006

His title?
He was never the King of Scotland; while still in power he proposed that to make relations with the British more genial and productive that he should either be granted the title "King of Scotland" or be betrothed to Princess Anne. Suprisingly she said no. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.142.17.105 (talk • contribs) 22:28, 24 January 2006

Portrayal in Media
Though "Mississippi Masala" (according to its Wikipedia page) contains some references to Amin's regime, I have removed it from "Portrayal in Media." This section is meant to highlight portrayals of Amin in the media, either by actors dramatically interpreting Amin's persona, or by documentary filmmakers attempting to "portray" Amin through exploration of his actions and character. If Amin had been a character in the film (ie, an actor had portrayed him in the film), this would be a "portrayal in media". However, since the film only references Amin and does not concentrate on portraying him (through dramatic interpretation or otherwise), it should not be included as a "portrayal in media." Docether 15:09, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Richard Nixon on Idi Amin
Does anyone remember that Richard Nixon quote about Amin being a "goddam cannibal asshole" who would "eat his own mother?" I can't seem to find the exact words, but I think he also said, "Christ! He'd eat his own grandmother!" Maybe I'm thinking of something Hunter Thompson wrote, so who knows how reliable it is. Brian G. Crawford 02:01, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

No proof of murder assertion
there is no documentation for the assertion that one of the entebbe hostages was killed by ugandan army officers acting under the orders of idi amin. therefore i am replacing "murdered" with "allegedly killed." if someone has any documentation for this incident, i wish that person would add it to this article. jonathan becker 02:03, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Portrayal in Media, Part 2
OK, "Portrayal in Media" is getting clogged up with trivia again. Amin was mentioned in a song, his picture showed up in a lad magazine, etc. etc. "Portrayal in Media" is meant to include those works of media which center on a portrayal (dramatic or factual) of Amin". For example, we should include a film in which Amin, portrayed by an actor, is either primary or important secondary character. We should also include a documentary which closely follows Amin and attempts to portray his character through intensive interrogation of his actions. Amin has undoubtedly been referenced in many types of media, but he has not been portrayed in very many at all, and this section should highlight those important portrayals, rather than provide a laundry-list of "mentions".

The mention of Amin in a Sex Pistols song does not rise to the level of a "portrayal" (which it might, for example, if the song's lyrics were written from Amin's point of view). Likewise, a single line mention in Maxim Magazine is not a portrayal. If the rapper E.D. I Mean has modelled his stage persona on Amin, then it's a portrayal -- otherwise, if the name is all they have in common, we should remove this item as well. In a day or two, barring extensive discussion of this issue, I'm going to remove the first two items listed above and look into the third one. Docether 14:06, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Entebbe
The article says two hostages were killed during the operation, but the Operation Entebbe article says it was four. Can this discrepancy be sorted out please? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.188.28.207 (talk • contribs) 16:28, 3 July 2006

Why did his title get delted from this page?
It was "His Excellency President for Life, Field Marshal Al Hadji Doctor Idi Amin, VC, DSO, MC, Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Sea, and Conqueror of the British Empire in Africa in General and Uganda in Particular." Why did it get removed? Stuart mcmillen 07:25, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I have put it back, although I believe it is mere trivia. Idi Amin was never officially known by that title – that title was one of his many trivial eccentricities that made good headlines. Whatever crap came out of Amin's mouth was made into news. I argue that Amin's titles and nicknames are trivia (useful in popular culture, but useless for historical documentation) and should be treated as such on Wikipedia. Amin was often a headline, and often used by Western journalists as an excuse to mock African dictators (and occasionally Africans) irrelevant of reality, and disregarding from the fact that their own countries supported Idi Amin economically and morally. --Ezeu 15:11, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Movie website links to wikipedia
Check it out: http://www2.foxsearchlight.com/thelastkingofscotland/pops/links.html

It links to this page first. (Bjorn Tipling 20:56, 20 September 2006 (UTC))

Idi Amin in Kenya
The wikipedia article claims he was in Kenya with the KAR fighting against the Mau Mau rebellion until 1949. He may have been in Kenya, but he wasn't fighting against the Mau Mau. The Mau Mau rebellion and the Emergency didn't start until 1952. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.206.12.3 (talk • contribs) 21:11, 23 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, that inconsistency needs to be corrected. I have made corrections using Guweddeko's timeline. --Ezeu 21:51, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Hero
This guy was a hero. If he was President in the United States, I bet we wouldn't be having any problems with obnoxious anti-war protesters clogging up our streets. Sunset&#39;s Light 04:35, 3 November 2006 (UTC)