Talk:Idol worship/Archive 1

All right, this article is taking a very biased pot shot at Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy by equating idolatry with veneration. I'm steamed, so I'm not going to start making changes right now. I'm going to give cooler heads a chance to do that, preferably the original authors and editors of this piece. I suggest the article distinguish between Protestants and Christians.

If the current text stays, I'm very tempted to insert a rebuttal paragraph or two indicating how the Protestant stance defining idolatry as it does, also effectively denies the doctrine of the Incarnation, just as John of Damascus said it was wont to do back in the eighth century. Wesley 22:40 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC)

This is not remotely NPOV. Michael Hardy 23:10 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC)

The middle to bottom needs work, no doubt, but what do you mean /NPOV?- &#35918&#30505

NPOV = "neutral point of view". See the discussion of this in the introductory pages. Michael Hardy 23:12 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC)

--


 * Idolatry is worse than carnage -- The Koran
 * -- Tarquin 23:21 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC) (it's quoted in Consider Phlebas)

Nice... Sign your name with three ~'s next time...-- &#35918&#30505 23:19 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC) Sue?

Sorry Susan... didnt see you editing... - &#35918&#30505

It appears there is an edit disagreement.


 * stating "idolatry is a sin" is POV. Stating that all religions oppose idolatry is incorrect. Susan Mason

Ah youre actually talking things over now... how honored we are that you talks to ussss. - &#35918&#30505

yesh Susan Mason

I agree the sin word is best avoided. So is fetishim, for that matter, which is really the phiosophizing of the habitual and indulgent... related, and worty of aheader, but not pg 1 materiale.. - &#35918&#30505


 * Idolatry is the name of a sin; it's the only way the concept has meaning.  Some religions revere images, but they don't claim to be idolators, even if  they are in fact; they redefine idolatry so it only applies to something somebody else does.  Religions that don't have a tenet that forbids idolatry don't need the concept; they don't worry about it.  -- IHCOYC 23:39 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC)


 * Idolatry is the name of something which some people believe is a sin, that alone does not make it a sin. Susan Mason


 * The concept of idolatry, then, refers only to what people believe is a sin. Whether it is in fact a sin or not is beside the point: those who speak of idolatry are talking about sin.  -- IHCOYC 23:46 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC)


 * Or so they believe... Susan Mason

the fetishism page reads like it is something we would want to mention: Susan Mason
 * Fetishism most generally refers to the belief that natural objects have supernatural powers, or that something created by people has power over people.

I understand your fetish for fetishim here but its POV, and way down the list as far as idolatric concepts go... think bigger. much bigger... I have to take a ... - &#35918&#30505

So... article contends that Hinduism is not idolatry because it merely uses idols as a representation of a divine being, like Christians use the cross, statues of Jesus or Mary, etc. But is this latter practice not also considered idolatry by some? For example, Jehovah's Witnesses? Or am I mistaken? Graft

You are correct. Susan Mason


 * Some Protestant Christians, especially evangelicals, use the word "idolatry" as an ad homenim attack; most haven't the slighest clue as to the technical definition of this term. Many use it to slander or attack the beliefs of any religion that differs from their own, even Catholicism. Hinduism is commonly called idolatry by many people. Whether it fits the technical definition of that term, however, is another issue. Judaism traditionally has had little contact with Hinduism, and as such has little track record on this topic. Many Jewish people who know a little about Hinduism regard it as idolatry, but then again, some rabbis whihave studied the religion in more depth have written the opposite point of view. RK

Whether something is idolatry or not is purely POV. Susan Mason

RK is introducing POV material. Christianity does not demand worship of God via a cross anymore than Judaism demands woship of God via a dradle or kosher kitchen. Also he is denying a Christo-Islamic-Judeo tradition. Susan Mason


 * Susan, there is a huge difference between disputes about facts, and about points of view. This is a fact issue, not a POV issue. Further, you are just plain wrong. You seem to know very little about real-life Christianity. It is an indisputable fact that large numbers of Christians are taught that they must kneel before a cross, sometimes before a figure of Jesus on the cross. This is a mainstream way of how a huge number of Christians pray to God. You may not approve of this, but exists nonetheless. You can't wish away facts bcause it offends your personal beliefs. And your comparison with Judaism was totally ignorant. Keeping a kosher kitchen, or playing children's games with a dreidl, has nothing to do with prayer to God. That's just ignorant and wrong. RK

Susan wrotes "christianity does not demand idolization of a cross". Huh? Susan, stop attacking statements that no one has made. What I said was that many Christians pray to God via the cross or crucifix, and many venerate saints through statues. Please do not write about topics which you are clearly ignorant of.

Please do not be hostile, arrogant, rude, condenscending, and the like. Susan Mason

RK-The fact that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are so closely related that one could consider them three sects of the same religion is a viewpoint held by many people. There is a Christo-Islamic-Judeo tradition, and it goes back many years. I am familiar with many Jews who pray before eating, and do so much more than Christians, yet I am not saying that they they idolize their food. Many Christians do not kneel before a cross, with or without a picture of Jesus. Susan Mason


 * That's garbage. Judaism, Christianity and Islam have very different views of this subject. Stop substituing your wishes for reality.

-

Hello. Is it not possible that each religion has different views of what exactly constitutes idolatry so that, for example, the Christian view is different from the Islamic view is different from the Jewish view.


 * Yes, this is what I have been trying to say! But Susan and Stevertigo deny this, and pretend that there is some kind of unified Christian-Muslim-Jewish point of view. That's ridiculous. RK

I know that in some areas of the the Middle East, for example, Muslims are very strict about prohibiting any images of humans, animals, plants, or stars as decorative motifs in mosques because this can be interpreted as idolatry, whereas Christians are more lenient with the use of icons, crucifixes, etc. (The Jewish tradition seems to depend largely on the dominant culture of the region). In other words, defining idolatry, which is largely a social construct), would depend on the religious background of the person creating the definition. In other words, a single definition cannot be POV. Danny


 * I totally agree.

RK is deleting a link to Christo-Islamic-Judeo tradition for who knows what reason. Susan Mason


 * Robert, continue in your conduct, and I will bring it to the community that you be removed. Period. Your insulting tone, and excessive alarmism have met an ill mood in me today, and I suggest you moderate your tone. I wont ask again. - &#35918&#30505 And thank you Danny, for being objective and articulate.- But that it cant be nailed down, because its subjective to religious tradition, is besides the point isnt it? We deal with the general issue... the most broad concept - the one expressed in the ten commandments comes close. It has virtually nothing to do with statues, although statue-worship no doubt provided inspiration for the commandment... the holding of things to interfere with God, is what idolatry is, and this is practically universal. Then come the particulars.- &#35918&#30505

I believe it is inappropriate for RK to be accusing Stevertigo of anti-Zionist rants when he hasn't doing anything of the sort during this discussion, or ever as far as I am aware. Susan Mason


 * Susan, that's totally false. He just wrote anti-Zionist attacks, a few minutes go, multiple times, and I deleted them because it was a violation of Wikipedia protocol. Check the History of this article. Please do not accuse me of lying. The only problem is that you failed to follow this article closely. RK

There is some kind of unified Christian-Muslim-Jewish POV in regards to idolatry. My wiccan friends all think that idolatry is good, they idolize the earth and the plants in particular. They speak to rocks and believe divine beings are to be found within inert matter. Susan Mason


 * No, Susan, there isn't. Stop making up fantasy, and then writing about it as fact. That is not acceptable behavior in a peer-reviewed encyclopedia. RK

Susan, I would not characterize your Wiccan friends religion as "idolatry" in the denegrating sense that others might - in accord with their particular views of Wicca, in general. Rather, what Wiccans worship is the manifestation of the "holy spirit" in all things. Its not incompatible with the Judeo-Christo-Islamic concepts, rather its related - while also containing some of the Eastern religious foundations of deism, where deities represent only manefestations of the divine spirit and not the spirit itself, which is the unapproachable mystery. - &#35918&#30505

'''Its rude people, as if you didnt know, to chop up a talk page by making insterted entries, and to leave entries unsigned. - &#35918&#30505'''

I think the solution is to use message boards and chatrooms. Right now we could be chatting in Real-Time with RK, Danny, each other, and others, and Im sure we'd accomplish much more. Susan Mason

I would not go to the Ten Commandments because they are based on a Judeo-Christian text, but to the best of my knowledge they do not appear as such in the Koran (been a while--I could be wrong here.) And besides, look at Exodus 20:4-5--it certainly does have to do with "graven images or any likeness of any thing that is in the heaven above, or in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow unto them or serve them..." That is certainly talking about statues. Also, this whole discussion is pretty ethnocentric. What do the Bahai or the Sikhs have to say about idolatry? I am sure that they have specific opinions too. What about Buddhism? Maybe the term itself is incongruous with our contemporary understanding of religions. Danny


 * Uhm? Danny? you do know that the Quran is the most recent of "holy texts" in Islam? And yes its a Westerocentric discussion.
 * "It is an essential part of a Muslim's belief that if anyone professes belief only in the divine origin of the Quran, and refuses to acknowledge the divine origin of other books, such as the Old Testament and the New Testament etc., his profession of Islam would be invalidated." - &#35918&#30505


 * And yet, Muslims also believe that the other books were corrupted. For that reason they study the Koran and not the Bible. Danny

The world and all its religious people are full of contradictions, Danny. - &#35918&#30505

Not all Muslims study only the Koran... Susan Mason


 * Yes - The characterization of the entire Muslim religion as 'hostile toward "non-believers"' is quite a common one these days, and as I undersand it and human nature, is an entirely xenophobic matter - a propensity for quoting angry rhetoric and minimlalising the substance...


 * What I do understand of Islam, just as many here are keen to point to me about Judaism, is that its invalid to generalize the beliefs of millions of people...
 * Islam sees itself very differently than Jews or Christians see it, and the hostility by the two towards Islam strikes me as similar to the inter-sect fighting between Catholics and Protestants... Protestants and Mormons.. etc...
 * the newer always thinks its concepts superior by virtue of modernity, even when its ideas are long since antiquated. And the older thinks its been aging like wine the whole time, when in fact its been only changing like people. Christian hostility towards Islam is no doubt equivalent to Jewish hostility to Christians, although the scales are different... nevertheless, as i understand it, in my own secular way, that each of these religions is highly secular in principle.. that is, underneath its symbols and rhetoric each understands the universality of worship - (all fundamentalist make themselves irrelevant). The fundamental conditions for a religion are met in each, and each serves equivalently to inspire men to God. Any inter-faith hostilities arise either from the basic rancor the old has for the younger ( "The old only grow more wicked" - Frank Herbert ) or the fractures that arise from insincere and disingenuous misinterpretation of religious symbolism in accordance with a value judgement about that religion. Its fubar obfusco all over again. - &#35918&#30505

Returning to Wesley's points at the top of this page, I have to agree that the discussion of idolatry is decidedly Protestant, even when it tries to frame the discussion in the language of cultural anthropology and comparative religions. Although I've tried to skew the discussion of Christian practices back to NPOV, I am still disconcerted by the definition of idolatry. I need to research the question further in standard scholarship on comparative religion. Basil Fritts 06:32 Mar 4, 2003 (UTC)

"Shintoism is a religion which worships images." No, Shintoism is a religion which worships kami.

Might it not do to divide this article in two? One article, Idolatry, would deal with the theological concept used in Abrahamic religion, and thus touch on subjects such as iconoclasm and the Islamic view of images. In that article, it would be appropriate to deal with the idea of idolatry as sin, and the various things that different Abrahamic religions subsume under "idolatry", because that article would be describing the Abrahamic concept of idolatry. The other article, Idol, would deal with the religious artifacts used in certain Hindu sects, various animisms, and other such religions. It would deal with the various sorts of idols that have been used in worship, the ways in which idols are used, archaeological finds of idols, and so forth. It would be dealing not with the Abrahamic idea of "idolatry" but with the practices of those non-Abrahamic religions which actually use idols. --FOo


 * That may not be a bad idea in theory. Like I've tried to say here, "idolatry" is the name of a sin in the Abrahamic religions.  Those who don't believe that the worship of idols is forbidden either have no need of the concept, or they alter it so they can convince themselves what they're doing isn't actually idolatry.  Not sure that a separate article at "idol" is the right place for it, though; after all, "idol" gets all its meaning from "idolatry."  The article at fetishism wanders away into odd Marxist-Leninist and sex stuff, and perhaps it needs to be expanded with descriptions of actual fetishism.  Other faiths probably have sufficiently developed ideas, so that perhaps idol could just direct people to more substantial discussions of specific varieties of image worship at, say, Shinto, or veneration, or Hinduism, or icon. -- IHCOYC 12:44 Mar 4, 2003 (UTC)


 * Do cultural anthropologists call these items "idols"? Wesley

- Wow. What a storm of editing. Guess I'm not the only to feel strongly about this. Thanks everyone, I think this article is starting to look decent. Looks like no one has touched on its relationship to the Incarnation yet, so I'll be adding that bit here shortly. Wesley 15:49 Mar 4, 2003 (UTC)

idolatry, n. 1 : the worship of a physical object as a god 2 : immoderate attachment or devotion to something

I would rather not have the title of this article suggest that the practice it describes is "immoderate", as this implies disapproval. I think disapproval isn't neutral.

I therefore propose to move the idolatry article to idol worship, which means the same thing but carries less "disapproving" baggage.

The article should still mention that some religions slap the idolatry label on idol worship and even condemn idol worship as pagan or heathen abomination! When I bought my new Macintosh in 1987, my friend in the UC berated me for idolizing it and called Mac worship a cult. She said, half-jokingly, "You should only belong to one cult at a time." --Uncle Ed 15:53 Mar 4, 2003 (UTC)

I don't see any NPOV difference between idolatry and ideol worship. In any event, I deleted this paragraph:
 * Idol worship is the exaltation of of objects, static concepts, or otherwise finite things, primarily icons, images, places, relics, idols, sculptures, etc. Some religions require or approve of idol worship, while many other religions regard it as the sin of idolatry, in particular the figured representation of a deity and emphasise that a reverence or attachment to material things is forbidden.

because any religion that require or approves of "idol worship" is not going to call what they worship idols. There are three different points of view this article would have to consider: the point of view of doi dissant idol worshipers (and I am shocked that there is no reference to Kaufman's work); the POV of religions that condemn idolatry (like Judaism, Christianity, Islam), and the point of view of secular scholars of comparative religion -- which in its early stages was somewhat Christian-centric. This article seems to be written from a religious point of view; the above paragraph is certainly not NPOV. Slrubenstein


 * I disagree, I have idols which I worship. What idolatrous religions are u thinking of which are adamant that they are not worshipping idols? The Bible speaks of false idols, one might take this as evidence that some idols are not false. Susan Mason


 * Susan, once again you ignore Wikipedia's NPOV policy. This article is not about your point of view.  I refered to Kaufman, please tell me what scholarly works you are referring to when you assert that religions that worship idols think of their objects of worship as idols? Slrubenstein


 * I don't see where you referred to Kaufman, except that you have mentioned his name twice. I do not feel it is appropriate for you to demand authoritative proof and evidence from me, when you yourself refuse to provide the same.


 * I do see where you have found it appropriate to resort to personal attacks and insults.


 * Where does Kaufman say, "The Azxgi Waon of the Indus Valley tend to castrate those individuals who mistakenly refer to the idol of the god WWARAWWAR WARWAH as an "idol", the Azxgi Waon are adamant that their idol is no mere idol, but, in fact, is a statue in which WWARAWWAR WARWAH lives, it is no mere idol, but rather, a POWER ROCK!" Should you find such a quote, I will consider moving the page to something which is not offensive to the Azxgi Waon, perhaps God in a rock worship? Susan Mason


 * On the other hand, is there a religion that explicitly endorses or promotes idol worship? You said that you worship idols; to what religion do you adhere, and is that part of that religion's teaching and/or practice? Wesley

I am part of a secret society of which you will find no information. I believe there are numerous religions which clearly have idols of some sort, however, the definition of what is, or isn't, an idol, is certainly going to remain in dispute until we agree upon a definition. I am of the opinion that if there is inanimate object which is considered to have not merely religious significance, but religious power innate to itself, then that object is an idol. Susan Mason


 * Idol worship is the exaltation of of objects, static concepts, or otherwise finite things, primarily icons, images, places, relics, sculptures, etc.


 * No, Susan, nothing at all depends on whether "we agree upon a definition" because Wikipedia is not about "our" point of view. The issue is, how have different people -- scholars and religious practicioners -- defined and used the term "idol," and how has this changed?  Slrubenstein


 * From Talk:idol worship...

The Torah is a Jewish Text I am surprised that no Jewish person intervened earlier to correct some of the mistakes in this thread. The Ten Commandments are first mentioned in a Jewish text, the Torah. Several Christians, notably King James, took issues with some of the text and made changes to the Christian adaptation, which they call the Old Testament. As Muslims also believe in the Torah as the first book, it is incorrect to refer to the Torah as a Judeo-Christian text. It is a Jewish text, which many peoples and religions later chose to modify for their own uses, including newer religions like the Bahai. All use of "Judeo-Christian" and similar terms on this page are indicators of lack of comprehension regarding these two very different faiths.

Some Christian Sects and Idol Worship Jews, do, in fact, generally consider statues of Christ and Mary to constitute idol worship, yet we do not believe that non-Jews are bound by the commandments or the rules of the Torah, and we don't believe it is for us to judge, therefore we wouldn't condemn Christians with Mary statues as idol worshipers who are violating G-d's commandments. On the other hand, some Christians understand the Hebrew Bible's straightforward edicts regarding idol worship, and therefore disallow statues in their churches.

Hindus and Idol Worship Jews also, generally consider Hindus to be idol worshipers, and there is an interesting book about a group of rabbis visiting the Dalai Lama (although I'm not sure it addresses this), which addresses Jewish views on Buddhism, called The Jew in the Lotus. Again, Hindus are not bound by Jewish law, so we don't hold it against them.

I think most of the participants here do not understand how the Torah defines idol worship, though ironically, this is the original prohibition that stirs all this controversy. It's usually best to go straight to the source - and for many religious controversies, that source is Torah. (but you may call it the Old Testament or what have you, if it makes you feel more comfortable, though as I mentioned, King James is NOT the source) For more information on how knowledgeable, religious Jews view idol worship, check out Ask Moses:



--88.154.53.228 21:07, 20 March 2006 (UTC)Michelle in Jerusalem