Talk:If—

Simpsons?
This poem is quoted by Grandpa Simpson in the episode Old Money. Should it be included in the pop culture section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.90.88.131 (talk) 01:06, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Isocrates
Surprised there is no mention of the influence of the work of Isocrates here. One of the early texts... To Demonicus? If someone would be so kind as to include a footnote or comment. (94.170.64.102 (talk) 05:58, 2 October 2009 (UTC)).

Dashes
The dash in the title seems to mean links are getting messed up (since it's an extended-ASCII character). Are there any objections to moving the page to If (poem) or something similar? Shimgray 02:25, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Since there don't seem to be any objections, I'm going ahead with this change --Lox (t,c) 17:25, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Comment
My father gave me a copy of this poem, and I've since placed it on my wall to remind me that I need to be living a virtuous, hard-working, and respectable life. I'm disappointed that there are a couple of negative opinions about it here. I think the poem is actually very different from Invictus in that it leaves room for the subject to follow God, does not endorse cold-hearted resolve, and overall simply has a much more positive tone. I don't know if Timothy McVeigh ever cited this poem as one of his favorites, as Smerdis of Tlön seems to suggest above, but to imply that this poem inspires megalomania is ridiculous. This poem is just what it appears to be--an admonition to grow up as a responsible man. I suspect that probably a lot of people don't like this poem because it is male-oriented, but if more people tried to live like the man depicted in this poem, I think the world would be a better place. SCW 10/17/06

Myanmar vs. Burmese
Corrected Myanmar to Burmese. Innapropriate on many levels for the orwellian language of a military dictatorship to be used when the translator stands firmly (as in the poem) against said military dictatorship. Refer here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aung_San_Suu_Kyi for use of Burmese in association with Aung San Suu Kyi. - BJS1/14/2007

Text of poem
Text of poem has been removed. As has already been mentioned on this talk page, Wikipedia is not for source text. That's what Wikisource is for. :) So, there's a Wikisource box there now. --Midnightdreary 22:23, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The text should be there. Its out of copyright, a normal enyclopaedia would show it, readers expect it to be there. Just not having it because of a pedantic application of a general rule is stupid. Perhaps the rule could apply to longer material, but the poem is short. Do articles about paintings not show a picture of it? If they have pictures, then the poem should be illustrated with the text. 78.147.202.148 (talk) 12:18, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
 * {+1} This page is about the poem itself. --ElfQrin (talk) 00:41, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
 * But the poem is not about itself. 75.36.151.17 (talk) 10:44, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

If?
If the official title is "If—", why is the — omitted throughout the article? --KnightMove (talk) 11:58, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Audio
I'm very troubled by the audio file. I don't know if wikipedia standards favor any dialect of English, but the current recording definitely needs cleaning up. I'm a native English speaker from the US, and I have great difficulty understanding the poem in the current recording: I assume it's more difficult for non-native English speakers.

What are the protocols for replacing this recording? I would be willing to make one myself, if I know I'm following wikipedia standards.

Thomas1617 (talk) 02:13, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Agree. This is a poor recording / recital. It is very unclear. If you have the equipment & enthusiasm, please make a new recording and replace it. A recital close to the poets accent would be ideal. I too do not know where policies on this can be found, so make a recording and link to it on the talk page of the existing recording. If some time period passes without any comments supporting the existing recording, I suggest that you replace it. (A more seasoned Wiki vet. would link the ”Be Bold” page now. Cheers. Jim no.6 (talk) 14:28, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Originally published in...
The article states "It was first published in the Brother Square Toes chapter of Rewards and Fairies". However, I had been taught that it was first published in the Obituary column of the "The Times". The source was a book we had back in the 1970's of unusual facts and it proved to be correct on most points.

Can anyone confirm/deny if it appeared in "The Times" before publication in "Rewards and Fairies" ?

Bmoregan (talk) 14:26, 10 February 2010 (UTC)


 * If someone with access to The Times' archive reads this, please check and update this article. Jim no.6 (talk) 14:27, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

I have searched The Times archive from 1908 to 1911 - it is not there. Whose obituary would it be marking? 'Brother Square Toes' (which it tails) was first published in The Delineator, and American magazine, in July 1910, before being collected in Rewards and Fairies in October 1910 86.187.173.117 (talk) 23:03, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Where's the ****ing text?
Rather stupid not to have the text in the article nor any obvious links to it. 92.28.250.159 (talk) 13:01, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Rather stupid of you not to read the previous discussions about it on the talkpage, nor spot the clear link to Wikiquote.--Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 07:06, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * No, he's perfectly right -- it was completely hidden. Most readers of the article would be interested in reading the poem itself before or after reading the article. I have moved the WikiSource link to the top so that more people can see it. Someone with a better grasp of linking to Wikisource content could change it to use a template saying something like WikiSource has a Copy of the Poem for more clarity. Jim no.6 (talk) 14:26, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

"Anthologised to Weariness"
It is frequently stated that Kipling himself noted in "Something Of Myself" that the poem had been "anthologised to weariness". (If you google that exact phrase you will see that it's commonly held). I don't have a primary reference for this, but someone might like to add one. Rob Burbidge (talk) 10:49, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Valid cultural currency
"As an evocation of Victorian-era stoicism—the “stiff upper lip” self-discipline, which popular culture rendered into a British national virtue and character trait, "If—" remains a valid cultural currency."

Aside from the punctuation mistake, this sentence is pretty clunky - particularly the term "valid cultural currency". Without trying to be unkind, it reads a bit like the sort of thing an undergraduate literature student would write in an attempt to show off their vocabulary. Are there any objections to changing it to more basic/accessible language? Lewdswap (talk) 18:13, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on If—. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20091212030541/http://www.icons.org.uk:80/theicons/collection/stiff-upper-lip/biography/spartans-and-stoics-with-stiff-upper-lips to http://www.icons.org.uk/theicons/collection/stiff-upper-lip/biography/spartans-and-stoics-with-stiff-upper-lips

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Italicized
Should the title be italicized?&thinsp;&mdash; Mr. Guye (talk) (contribs)&thinsp; 21:29, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110213052406/http://www.library.dal.ca/DUASC/Digital-Collections/Kipling/Editions to http://www.library.dal.ca/DUASC/Digital-Collections/Kipling/Editions/

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Apocalypse now
Hello, should be mentioned in article, that part of poem is quoted in movie Apocalypse now? its quoted by photojournalist when he is talking to willard about kurtz: ""Do you know that 'if' is the middle word in life? If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you, if you can trust yourself when all men doubt you"... I mean I'm... no, I can't... I'm a little man, I'm a little man, he's... he's a great man! I should have been a pair of ragged claws scuttling across floors of silent seas... " Nabulcar (talk) 20:15, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, if it is cited, I agree that it should be. It is a prominent mention of it and it was in the "In popular culture" section for a long time until it was deleted about 4 months ago when an editor removed all such entries without sources. Find a good one and feel free to add it back in. JesseRafe (talk) 20:43, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I dont do usually this on wiki, but can it be something like this?  The poem was was mentioned in movie Apocalypse now by photographer played by Dennis Hopper, he literally says: "Do you know that 'if' is the middle word in life? If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you, if you can trust yourself when all men doubt you"


 * It could be something like that albeit without the word "literally" or even the quote (since it's already on the page in full) and with a better reference. IMDb is not a reliable source because... it too is a wiki that anyone can edit. JesseRafe (talk) 21:38, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Really?
Of all the pop culture references to this poem and not a mention of 1968's 'if....' (dir. Lindsay Anderson, starring Malcolm McDowell...), the title of which was directly inspired or influenced by this poem. It was a suggestion made by an assistant or someone to Lindsay Anderson when deciding on names after the original working title for the film had been Crusaders. Somebody add it? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.23.153.85 (talk) 20:30, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Manchester University defaced mural
Was the mural restored? If not, was the defacement allowed to remain? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.35.22.82 (talk) 10:54, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Full text added again
I've started another test balloon for adding the full text of the poem to the article. Seems like this was last discussed ten years ago, and I must say I find the arguments proffered against inclusion thoroughly unconvincing. Just because the text is available at Wikisource does not mean that it cannot be included in this article (it goes without saying that copyright concerns have not applied for the last few decades). The expectation of any reader of the article would be for the text to be present, but that shy little Wikisource icon at the uttermost ends of the page is effectively invisible - I've been editing WP pretty busily for six years, and I only found it because I went looking for it after reading the discussions above. It's not a long poem either, and the text does not bloat the page by any reasonable measure. Lastly, "are we doing this kind of thing"? Yes we do - see for example The White Man's Burden and The Gods of the Copybook Headings, to stick with Kipling - and neither of these is as famous as "If—".

So, I'd suggest we keep the text included here. And if there is disagreement, I'd like to see some better rationale than "Wikisource has it". We are not taking bread from the mouth of Wikisource's children, and that shit don't cost us printing money either. -- Elmidae (talk · contribs) 21:05, 27 April 2021 (UTC)


 * I for one support including the text. For a couple of non-Kipling examples where the text is included see Crossing the Bar and Break, Break, Break. DuncanHill (talk) 21:20, 27 April 2021 (UTC)


 * It would have been the considerate thing to do if you would have pinged to notify her of this discussion.  And as for Other stuff exists, I don't find it convincing.  As this is an article  the poem, I'd vote Oppose since the project has it elsewhere. — Ched (talk) 22:00, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Wikisource isn't exactly behind a "beware of the leopard" sign but it's not terribly obvious as pointed out above, and asking readers to read two pages instead of one is hardly welcoming or helpful. To discuss a poem without the poem is like Hamlet without the prince. DuncanHill (talk) 22:05, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm just not seeing the merit in pointing out that the project also has the text at another location. Almost all of our images are available at Commons. So why do we include the actual images in articles? The "Wikimedia Commons has media on this topic" link should do just fine, under that logic. Answer: we include them because they are helpful illustrations for the audience who is in the process of reading that article. And there's nothing more helpful in an article about a poem than the actual poem. -- Elmidae (talk · contribs) 22:24, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Commenting because Ched pinged me. If people are having trouble finding the link to Wikisource, we should leave it in. Looking at the article on my phone, the Wikisource link is in the external links section, where people are not too likely to find it or even realise that it's there. Around half of our readers use the mobile version. So I think might be a good idea to include the text of the poem. It's short, it's public domain, — Diannaa (talk) 22:42, 27 April 2021 (UTC)


 * I don't use my phone for the WWW stuff, so in light of that (new info to me) I'll strike my oppose. — Ched (talk) 23:00, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Recording
Why is there no citation of the author of this recording? Rzn2blv (talk) 14:55, 9 January 2022 (UTC)