Talk:Iglesia ni Cristo/Archive 11

GA passed
Issues to work on for the progression :
 * The article needs more information on the belief of the church.
 * Being worked on at /Workshop; slowly however.


 * The article needs to distinguish between the religion mentioned and the others.
 * That'll probably be covered in beliefs, if things go well.


 * It also needs to clearly define why it is not a cult and a religion.
 * In what way? Stating that INC doesn't follow the actions of most dangerous cults?


 * It needs more citations (at least for the citation needed tag).
 * It is in need of more criticism outside of the Philippines.
 * Most of its notoriety is within the Filipino and Evangelical communities, so it is difficult to find sources outside the Philipines, although they have locales in many places of the world.


 * Are there people in this religion outside of the Philippines? other that what is mentioned in Missionary activities.
 * Yes, there is. The adherants site I linked gives a chart of the INC population worldwide.


 * In the Criticism section it talks about the Pope ... if the pope is part of the hierarchy of the church it should be mentioned. If not, why such a claim is made in the criticisms section. Does the pope endorse such a religion?
 * I'm not sure why its there. Pope is not endorsed or associated with INC.


 * If this sentence Macapagal-Arroyo's father, Diosdado Macapagal, due to his religious and political views, refused INC's preferred. is really necessary it should be expanded into a paragraph or added to some other, if not ... it should be deleted. Lincher 18:06, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The point made was that not all candidates embrace INC's support, that they feel they can do their campaign on their own AFAIK. I've added some sentences to it to make it more clear. LBMixPro&lt;Sp e ak 20:14, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

removed from Good articles
was formerly listed as a good article, but was removed from the listing because edit war and article not broad in coverage
 * There actually is no edit war, reasonable users from both a supportive and critical viewpoint of INC agree this article presents all sides fairly and have worked together to make it a good article, something which I am very proud of. Unfortunately, a banned editor has come back using anonymous proxies, in disregard for the rules of Wikipedia and in disregard for the work put up by many of us in the past. I humbly request support for semi-protection once again. --Ironbrew 00:38, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I disagree on the reasons for delisting this as a good article. Although the article is not fully covered, GA doesn't require it to be so. The edit wars are from an editor who is banned from editing the article per ArbCom decision. Aside from beliefs, the article suitably covers critisism and origin nicely. I will fork this conversation into an official request to review the delisting in hopes for it to be relisted. --LBMixPro&lt;Sp e ak 08:50, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

INC statistics site
The Adherent Statistics and Religious Geography Citation archive has a wealth of information about INC's population. Anybody care to take a look and see what we can use from it? --LBMixPro&lt;Sp e ak 18:24, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

The state of this article.
Emico's return under User:IndependentMind and his classic anonymous proxy edits must be deleted. The unsourced criticism about the Bereans and other INC critics cannot stay as it is basically POV. The only things we can post in response are any official responses from the INC themselves. I will continue to revert any "contributions" made by Emico to this, or any other Iglesia ni Cristo related article until his ban is ended by ArbCom. --Ironbrew 21:39, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I've read further into Bauder's statement about enforcing bans, and he said that any block imposed on Emico's accounts that's reported at the arbcom's page will cause the timer on his ban to be reset. The creation of IndependentMind just caused him to be banned from INC articles until July 20, 2007. He needs to work positively with us if he ever wants to edit these articles again, and I hope he does. But if he feels he needs to disrupt Wikipedia to get his way, he'll only be treated as a vandal. --LBMixPro&lt;Sp e ak 22:21, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Central Compound
In the Politics section,there is a picture of the INC Central compound. The picture labels the College of Evengelical Ministry (CEM) as New Era University. Indeed, the College of Evangelical Ministry is part of the New Era University, but the main New Era University is NOT in the Central compound. Also, the CEM is secluded from the rest of NEU. On the other hand, we should be specific when it comes to these, since this is a religious matter. --Clamfish 17:30, 27 August 2007
 * Welcome to Wikipedia, the picture you're talking about is released under the public domain by it's original uplaoder. If you click the image, you will get an image description page. The file is hosted on a site called Wikimedia Commons, You can upload a more accurate version to the commons and link it here. -- w L &lt;speak&middot;check&gt; 21:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

INC as a landmark?
Here's the page Emico was probably trying to refer to:. Unfortunately, all the reviews are biased in either direction, with members fawning over the church and critics not liking it. This is definitely not an encyclopedic reference. All that I could say from my personal experiences is that INC chapels are found in most areas of the Philippines, and are somewhat notable in that fashion, but I would not call them tourist landmarks. Perhaps Central, but not every chapel. It's just like the Mormons in Utah, many people LDS and non-LDS visit their head tabernacle, but I don't think anyone would call regular Mormon chapels tourist landmarks.--Ironbrew 21:45, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I think he meant the central temple, as it is the most photographed. Speaking of Central, can we expand that section? --LBMixPro&lt;Sp e ak 22:31, 20 July 2006 (UTC) (updated 19:05, 31 July 2006 (UTC))

GA
The GA was given back as the disputing wasn't of importance as discussed on the Good articles' disputes page. Lincher 02:37, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

"indoctrinee"?
In the section on membership, it states that "the person is given the status of indoctrinee (or Bible Student, as they are called within the Iglesia ni Cristo)". So why not just use the term "Bible Students" if that is the term used? It seems that the statement as it stands is not acurate, since "indoctrinee" is not the status given by the church itself; and it sounds like a sly attempt to use a mildly pejorative word. I believe the first instance should be replaced with "...status of Bible Students, as they are called...." and afterwards should be changed to "students."

Full disclosure: I am not affiliated with the INC in any way at all, and think it is rather silly. But I think this one word in the article is even more silly.

If there is a reason for its use, I would like to learn about it.

I am going to make the change. I am trying to learn to "be bold," since my natural tendency is not to be. --Sean Lotz 06:34, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the terms are used interchangably (sp). Some locales they're called "indoctornees", and others they're called "students". But if there's no objections, I'm okay with the change. --LBMixPro &lt;Sp e ak o n 06:50, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you, LBMixPro, for the explanation. In my very limited knowledge, I had heard only "students." If the original had included "Both terms are used by the church," I would have felt easier with it. --Sean Lotz 07:00, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The term "indoctrinee" has already been replaced with the term "Bible Students", and by becoming one, it does not mean to be automatically become a member. It simply gives the person a chance to investigate the Church of Christ (INC) and listen to the words of God written in the bible. What is taught to the Bible Students are the 28 lesson Fundamental Beliefs of the INC. Bible Studies are held everyday, however, Bible Students are free to choose to have the Bible Study at the comfort of their homes, attend once a week, or what ever works for their schedule. -- 11:52 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Proposed INC WikiProject
As coverage of INC at Wikipedia continues to grow, and the need to make sure related articles are held at a high standard of Wikipedia article quality, I've proposed a new WikiProject dedicated to INC. If you're interested, go to WikiProject/List_of_proposed_projects and sign your name. A temporary example of what the project page will look like is at my userspace. --LBMixPro &lt;Sp e ak o n 09:24, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Worldview?
I know there have been some disputes about INC congregations and members, primarily in Calfornia, being involved in U.S. politics, but predominately this group has a membership of Filipinos and overseas Filipinos. Therefore, its predominant political influence is in the Philippines, and it makes sense that that section would demonstrate this. I don't know as this merits the "worldview" tag. I have a question that may demonstrate my partial ignorance of this topic, but is it commonplace for Filipinos living overseas to become citizens of other countries they may be working in, other than the U.S.? I know that there are many Filipino-Americans, which stems from the former colonial/Commonwealth status, and the large number of former Filipino employeers of the US Federal Government and their families that I understand are (rightly, IMO) entitled to special consideration toward US naturalization, but are there really large numbers of Filipinos who become citizens, and hence potentially politically involved in the politics of the other countries to which they have moved? (I know that there are tens of thousands of non-Filipino INC members, but I also know that within the group they are a vast minority and would not, in and of themselves, account for much political clout either as part of the group or as individuals.)Rlquall 13:35, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I can find no evidence of allegations of undue political influence outside the Phillipines. Can you cite sources for these disputes? To answer your citizenship question: there is a signficant number of Australian citizens of Filipino birth. &mdash;Theo (Talk) 18:13, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi Theo, I'm glad to see you back here - since it's been a while. If you would look back to around last year, there is a post where me and Bro. Glenn Cessor do agree that the Iglesia ni Cristo would endorse candidates in the past, but we do not have consensus as to when it stopped. Glenn recalls the 1996 Presidential election being the last election where the INC endorsed a candidate, while I do remember the INC endorsing Gray Davis for Governor when I lived in California.--Ironbrew 01:48, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Do we have sources that we can cite to support your memories? Would it have been mentioned in Californian newspapers at the time? &mdash;Theo  (Talk) 20:29, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It would have been in the article if we had it. --LBMixPro &lt;Sp e ak o n 06:46, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Missionary Activities
I would like to propose a change to the following line:

In North America, a television program called The Message is produced by Bro. Edward Maranan on behalf of the Iglesia ni Cristo in the San Francisco Bay Area. It is currently aired in the United States and Canada and some parts of Europe.

Bro. Edward Maranan does not produce The Message, but is a contributing panelist on the program.

So it should state: In North America, a television program called The Message is produced in the San Francisco Bay Area. It is currently aired in the United States and Canada and some parts of Europe. The 30-minute program is hosted by different INC ministers (alternating each show) who share the main beliefs of the Iglesia ni Cristo with a television audience.

Thanks--


 * This seems to be a resonable change so I have implemented it. &mdash;Theo (Talk) 11:24, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello Again --

Thanks for changing it, but I think we have a repeated line.

In North America, a television program called The Message is produced in the San Francisco Bay Area. It is currently aired in the United States and Canada and some parts of Europe. Each 30-minute program is hosted by one of a panel of INC ministers, who share the main beliefs of the Iglesia ni Cristo with a television audience. [20] Worldwide, the INC maintain an hour long time slot on The Filipino Channel and airs two among many of its programs including the INC Chronicles and Ang Tamang Daan. [21].

In North America, a television program called The Message is produced in the San Francisco Bay Area. It is currently aired in the United States and Canada and some parts of Europe. The 30-minute program is hosted by different INC ministers (alternating each show) who share the main beliefs of the Iglesia ni Cristo with a television audience.
 * Thank you for pointing it out. I taken care of it. --LBMixPro &lt;Sp e ak o n 06:16, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

GEM-TV also has a website which is located at www.gem-tv.net. Has programming schedule as well as descriptions of the various television shows which are produced by the iglesia ni cristo.71.141.99.6 23:45, 9 September 2006 (UTC)butchog

Pls. add this site under PRO
http://www.network54.com/Forum/281698/
 * It's been agreed on a while ago that forums shouldn't be linked from the article. --LBMixPro &lt;Sp e ak o n 09:22, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Attention all Emico Sleeper accounts!

 * Forked from User talk:Emico

Thanks for trying to contribute to Wikipedia, I'm letting the latest edit pass for the sake of improving the encyclopedia. This whole thing has gone on long enough, and frankly it is getting nowhere. There are ways to find out whether or not a sockpuppet is created or not. If you are willing to edit Wikipedia according to policy, I can vouch to have your arbcom ban waived and for you to be put under mentorship by another admin. I know you have the decency and intellegence to make the right choice. You've shown in the past that you are able to cooperate.

Wikipedia is and has always been a secular encyclopedia, open to all editors and viewpoints who are willing to work within the Wikimedia Foundation's goal. The article need expansion, and I'm not capable to edit as much as I am able to. Other members of INC (current and former) do have the information and ability to. However, if you return my favor by causing trouble around the encyclopedia, I will push a community ban against you. Please make the right choice. It's up to you. --LBMixPro  00:43, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Inclusion at Portal:Philippines/Selected article
Hello. Can someone make a summary for this article for it to be included at the Portal? Thanks! -- Howard  the   Duck  11:17, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Doctrine
This article hardly says anything about what the group believes. Any particular reason why? --IronMaidenRocks 19:44, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Other than what's written at /Workshop, there isn't either enough Reliable sources and WP:BOLDness to create the section. However, there's a less sourced summary of the book Fundamental Beliefs of the Iglesia ni Cristo article which explains it in detail. -- w L &lt;speak&middot;check&middot;chill&gt; 06:36, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion for semi-protection?
Should this article be semi-protected? The history suggest continuous blanking and vandalism in less than an hour. Will keep watch. --Quess 16:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

This page is being constantly vandalised. After I erased some misinformation,it came back again. If we don't protect this article, it will be constantly vandalised no matter how many times we clean it up. --Clamfish 17:30, 27 August 2007

A user from IP address 202.84.22.180 is repeatedly adding a disclaimer on the article. Will this article be semi-protected again?????? --Quess 08:31, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Crimes?
Renamed header for the "Crimes" section to "Controversy" since the term "crimes" is loaded with biased negative implications. The section also needs a bit of clean-up. --Quess 23:57, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Crimes is too negative of a term for an encyclopedia project made to be neutral. Controversial issues arecovered in the criticism section, where it's been moved. I've completely deleted the crimes section as it fails Wikipedia's notablility rule. Although the Jolibee incident linked to the court finding, I can't find any 3rd party news sources that cover it. Being a major Filipino Supreme Court case, I find it hard to believe that it's not easy to find. If someone can find it, I'll restore it under the upgraded "Controversy and criticism".

-- w L &lt;speak&middot;check&gt; 02:01, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Manila Bulletin and Manila Standard covers the "Jollibee" incident. --Quess 06:21, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the Jollibee link, but I found that I really was looking for sources the sports team murders. -- w L &lt;speak&middot;check&gt; 06:26, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The only source I found was on the website of the supreme court of the Philippines which I think was the one in the original edit. --Quess 06:40, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Resetting indents'. But I'm not completely sure if its a either a third party source or a first-party. But if it is reliable enough, and you want to add it back as a neutral concise summary, feel free to do so. - w L &lt;speak&middot;check&gt; 07:18, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Newsvine sources
Newsvine is a website similar to Digg where users can release content without peer review, although it also includes posts from the Associated Press. I'm starting to notice users making up stories and posting them to the article as if they're fact. Unless there's a legitimate news site that includes it. It will be reverted. Continue, and I will start the Conflict resolution process. -- w L &lt;speak&middot;check&gt; 00:40, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Contents being transferred to Tagalog Wikipedia
I'm doing some transferring of contents from this article to the Tagalog Wikipedia. Anyone who can read and write tagalog is invited to look and do some changes. I know tagalog but I'm afraid even I forget how some of the terms are translated to tagalog despite me being a Filipino living in the Tagalog-speaking regions of the Philippines. --Quess 22:13, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
 * You may want to talk to User:Jondel, as he is the one who is into translating the articles into numerous languages, including tagalog and ilocano (if that's how its spelled). -- w L &lt;speak&middot;check&gt; 23:30, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

INC/Pentacostal incident
The link points to what seems like an aggregator for news and has a link to the Philippine Star website. However, the page is now gone but it's still in the Google cache. Seems like the story was only two days old. Seems pretty suspicious IMO but then what should we do about the link? Are links to aggregators still valid if the original source is now gone? --Quess 01:04, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The google cache will soon expire the page, if you can find it on the Wayback Machine, it may help. -- w L &lt;speak&middot;check&gt; 05:25, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The problem with this is archives only become available after 6 to 12 months. The only copy I found that wouldn't expire is from a blog which won't do. --Quess 07:23, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The blog gives the newspaper page and number as reference though. I'll try to see if I can actually verify this by looking for the paper on that date. --Quess 07:41, 6 October 2007 (UTC)


 * i found out that this link was not working because the article had been moved and archived. This is the correct link -- Mickey0000 23:36, 7 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the find. Might as well update the citation reference. --Quess 00:07, 8 October 2007 (UTC)