Talk:Igor Girkin

Slightly biased
I think that this article is slightly biased in favour of the Ukrainian government’s version of events and is trying its best to link Girkin to the Russian intelligence service. It is clear and beyond the reason of doubt that he is a retired Russian officer, who arrived to Ukraine in order to support the pro-Russian Donbass People’s Militia, but it is unclear as to whether he works for the Russian intelligence authorities (this seems unlikely: prior to the war, Girkin was a public person, a historian and member of numerous historical re-enactment societies which aimed to portray Russian WWI units. He never tried to hide his personality — on the contrary, he posted much about himself on the Internet, providing information about his life, military service, etc. Not to mention that he made his debut as a special correspondent of the Russian newspaper “Zavtra”. The fact that the journalists quickly found out who he was and even ‘where his mother allegedly lived’ makes it clear that this man is far not a secret agent they expect him to be). In an attempt to link Girkin to the FSB, the article goes on to highlight some unimportant facts, tempting to make a spy story out of them. For example, I doubt that it is worth mentioning that a ‘fancy black car… picked up the woman (Girkin’s mother)’, for there is nothing suspicious about ‘fancy black cars’ picking up people nowadays; black cars should not be associated only with intelligence agencies. The woman might have hired a driver. Besides, it should be noted that she is the mother of the commander of the Donbass People’s Militia and may be under a threat of harm; it is therefore not surprising that she avoids attention.--Eriba-Marduk (talk) 20:17, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Biased??? Are you kidding me? The very first paragraph states that Girkin participated in annexation of Crimea. Now Putin himself stated that it was done by the Russian security and armed forces. Crimea is part of Ukraine (the annexation was not recognized by the world community), annexation is an act of aggression. And you state here something about clarity that the guy retired. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 18:00, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

facts
Living in Moscow, private adress is identified. Years ago, he was foreign "activist" in Bosnia-Hercegovina.
 * Hi anon, do you have a source or is this something you heard at a bar? --Львівське (говорити) 00:52, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Here you are: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC6-ajX9qrI  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.115.154.199 (talk) 08:53, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

"pro-kremlin Media outlet"? how about marking all the medias depend on who they work for? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.254.216.165 (talk) 20:45, 19 May 2014 (UTC)


 * should probably be added --Львівське (говорити) 03:04, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 * goble translates some good stuff from a russian article about him here --Львівське (говорити) 07:09, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Taking Credit for MH17
This article (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/17/us-ukraine-crisis-airplane-idUSKBN0FM22N20140717) does not say anywhere that Girkin is taking credit. It simply says he took credit for shooting down an An-26 about 30 minutes before MH17 disappeared. SheepNotGoats (talk) 18:29, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118813/igor-strelkov-russian-war-reenactor-fights-real-war-ukraine has sample links to the story (of course there was a whole lot more). --SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 10:30, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Note that in addition to the common name disagreement, Igor Strelkov is a dab page and no primary topic arguments were made. Jenks24 (talk) 13:15, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Igor Girkin → Igor Strelkov – per WP:NCP, the name used most often to refer to a person in reliable sources is generally the one that should be used as the article title. Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 13:27, 15 August 2014 (UTC)  --Relisted. Armbrust The Homunculus 11:09, 7 August 2014 (UTC)  Óðinn  (talk) 20:57, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
 * No. so far as I can see, Girkin is the name most commonly used. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 15:41, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Where do yo see that? Google News returns 6120 hits for Girkin and 11500 for Strelkov, including BBC, CBC and CNN. Óðinn (talk) 17:40, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Actually there's quite a lot precedents. Including the Bolsheviks like Lenin, Stalin, or Trotsky (not their real/birth names). Or all of those Arab militants. But official sources call him Girkin. I'd wait a little while and see how he's going to be named in obituaries. --SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 19:24, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
 * No idea why you think you'll outlive him; regardless, we go by the prevalence in reliable sources, not "official sources", whatever these might be. Óðinn (talk) 05:01, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Support This clearly is the name by which he is more often referred, as pointed out by the nominator. There are all sorts of people whom we have under their nom de guerre—or nom de plume, or even nom de football. &mdash;innotata 20:59, 14 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Oppose – No reason to use nom de guerre. BBC uses "Igor Girkin, known as Strelkov", for instance. This seems the best approach. This article should be titled Igor Girkin, his proper name, and his nom de guerre should be mentioned in the lead. RGloucester  — ☎ 21:06, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
 * You do realize that the same BBC article calls him Strelkov in the title and continues to do so after the first paragraph? This is exactly how this article should refer to him, per WP:NCP. Óðinn (talk) 15:38, 17 August 2014 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.


 * Comment on the decision. Óðinn seems simply pushed forward his unsupported requested. Strelkov is of course more common last name in Russia than Girkin. You cannont do google hits on that matter. Wikipedia is not about quantity, but rather a quality. Just because some BBC editor calls him so, it does not mean that BBC calls him that. It simply reflects how the editor is familiar about the subject. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 17:21, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Christianity
Should this article include that Strelkov is a Christian who calls his forces a "Christian Army"? The infobox updated to include religion? The article does not even mention his motivation to fight for Christianity against the atheism and Satanism of NATO.

Pro-Russian separatist military commander Igor Strelkov has banned his troops from swearing in a bout of Christian piety. "We call ourselves an Orthodox Christian Army." http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/igor-strelkov-demon-rebel-leader-bans-his-troops-swearing-1459052 "We call ourselves an Orthodox army and are proud to be serving not the golden calf, but Our Lord Jesus Christ and our people," he said, according to the Moscow Times. "Using 'mat' swearing is blasphemy against our Lord and the Mother of God, whom we serve and who cover us in battle." http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/pro-russian-separatist-commander-orders-soldiers-to-stop-cussing/ Strelkov stressed that NATO's expansion means the spread of atheism and Satanism in a Christian country, therefore, the peoples militia will fight by all means to keep the western parts of Ukraine together. http://www.hungarianambiance.com/2014/07/igor-strelkov-we-are-going-to-liberate.html Josh Keen (talk) 11:16, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

It's "Russian Orthodox Army", and it's just one of rebel militias. Their leader is Mikhail Verin: http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/meet-russian-orthodox-army-ukrainian-separatists-shock-troops-n107426 also known as Aleksandr Verin: https://news.vice.com/article/order-from-chaos-moscows-men-raise-a-rebel-army-in-ukraines-east --SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 19:27, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Oh wait, this is new. Well, I guess it just happens there are many Muslims from Chechnya and Dagestan in his "Christian army". --SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 19:30, 1 August 2014 (UTC)


 * It is unlikely that Chechen Muslims would be fighting in a Russian Christian rebel army. The "Chechen fighters in Ukraine" you are talking about are Russian Christians who went to Chechnya to fight and are now in Ukraine, here is a quote from Prime Minister of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic Alexander Borodai:
 * The borders of the Russian World extend significantly farther thant borders of Russian Federation. I fulfill a historic mission in the name of Russian nation, super-ethnos, unified by the Orthodox christianity. Just as in Caucasus, I'm fighting in Ukraine against separatism – this time not Chechen, but Ukrainian one. Because there is Russia, Great Russia, Russian Empire. And now Ukrainian separatists in Kiev are fighting against Russian Empire.
 * New BBC article http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28619599:
 * Igor Druz is advisor to the rebels' military commander Igor Strelkov, and a senior spokesman for the rebel-held territories of Donetsk region. He is in charge of the ideology of the eastern Ukrainian rebel movement. In an interview with the BBC in Donetsk he outlined his vision of the so-called 'state of Novorossia' they hope to build here.

He says he is a strong supporter of Orthodox Christian morality and family values, and opposed to homosexuality. He hopes to legalise death penalty for the most serious crimes and he is sure that most rebels will support him in this initiative.

...

Mr Druz said the rebels wanted to establish a socially responsible state that would protect Christian values.


 * Look at the Christian militia banner that he is photographed with - the depiction is one of Jesus, it matches this one and this older Christian icon. What is this militia flag? Posted here, there are hundreds of matches on VKontacte, most seem to be posted by Russian soldiers but all of the references seem to be to Ukraine and the Federal State of Novorossiya (which aims to be an officially Christian state).
 * Josh Keen (talk) 13:05, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
 * , it is a masquerade. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 18:05, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Strelkov's demands
Strelkov unreservedly demands that the liberal part of the Russian elite be destroyed. Source:

This information was removed by this edit with the reference to WP:BLP. I do not know if the information is correct or not but I believe it may be correct when looking back on many examples of the destruction of various opponents and oppositionists in the past of the Soviet Union. Psychiatrick (talk) 00:56, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * my bad. i should have looked at the source to see that it was Institute of Modern Russia a think tank, and not I'mrussia blog site. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  01:26, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * There are no primary source of quote in russian. Clearly, that citation concocted by author of the blog. Of course, it`s not reliable source. 94.45.129.180 (talk) 08:48, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
 * It is not a blog kept by one author but it is the website of the Institute of Modern Russia, the largest organization of polirical analysts and researchers of Russian issues. I do not think they can concoct something and take the risk of indermining public trust in them as researchers. Psychiatrick (talk) 15:49, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
 * It is their own applications. In the wiki-article about them there are no sources other than their website. In fact a matter - is it Girkin`s opinion, or not. If yes - it could be easy to find a video or interview with these words. But it does not. 94.45.129.180 (talk) 10:09, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Here is a Russian article that adduces Strelkov’s demands mentioned above.

Original Russian text: Итого, как человек простой и скромный, Игорь Иванович [Стрелков] тихим печальным голосом попросил сломать всю существующую путинскую политическую систему, уничтожить либеральные кланы и вступить в прямую конфронтацию с Западом. Source: Translation: In the upshot, as a plain and modest man, Igor Ivanovich [Strelkov] in a low sad voice asked to break all existing Putin's political system, to destroy liberal clans and to enter into the direct confrontation with the West. Psychiatrick (talk) 12:55, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
 * In the article should be included the original quote because IMR distorted it. 94.45.129.180 (talk) 08:55, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The IMR distorted nothing. Here is another quote from the same source :

Original Russian text: Стрелков открыто атакует Суркова, всю группу Медведева и старосемейную группу, требуя уничтожить либеральную часть российских элит, полностью разрушив бережно сохраняемый Путиным баланс сил, убрав все преграды для абсолютного влияния силовиков. Translation: Strelkov openly attacks Surkov, the entire group of Medvedev and the old family group through demanding the liberal part of the Russian elites be destroyed by completely destroying the balance of power carefully preserved by Putin and by removing all barriers for the absolute ascendancy of siloviki. Psychiatrick (talk) 12:14, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
 * It is not original quote. Just another interpretation from other blog 94.45.129.180 (talk) 17:15, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I do not use blogs in Wikipedia at all. Using blogs is forbidden by WP:RS. In addition, Strelkov is not a journalist, analyst or scientist and, therefore, does not write articles by himself to quote them here. All we have is articles by other analysts about what Strelkov says and demands. It is normal for Wikipedia where secondary sources are seen as more reliable than primary ones. Psychiatrick (talk) 17:41, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Interviews, updates
This story about an interview from May 31st 2015, where he allegedly says the DNR and LNR are Kremlin´s artificial creations, is interesting and probably worth quoting, but the claimed "Izvestia" source should be found (difficult, it seems). http://zik.ua/en/news/2015/05/31/donbas_republics_are_kremlins_creation__girkin_594611 - another important quote, but verified twice:"Russia is conducting big operations in Donbass, but it´s all very secret". http://mashable.com/2015/06/03/ukraine-ceasefire-rebel-offensive/?foa, https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/status/606057185978761216

Strelkov's party
Shouldn't Strelkov's party have its own article? Would anyone like to help create one? Charles Essie (talk) 19:34, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Here's the organization's Russian Wikipedia page. Charles Essie (talk) 16:31, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

RFC move to Igor Girkin
I’m going to boldly move this article to Igor Girkin. Any objections?

Rationale: Girkin is no longer some mysterious figure with unknown identity as in mid 2014. Reliable sources mainly now use his real legal name. In a Google advanced search for his full name in quotation marks, in English-language pages only, restricted to one year, results for Igor Girkin and "Igor Strelkov" -wikipedia and "Igor Girkin" -wikipedia are dead even, at just under 140 each. But in news search for the same period, the real name beats the nickname 126 to 21. (Real totals only visible on last results page; see WP:GOOGLE.) —Michael Z. 15:10, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Agreed. RGloucester  — ☎ 15:15, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Absolutely support. Cloud200 (talk) 16:10, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

I moved the page and updated the article. If you have a chance, scan over it and see if the name usage is consistent throughout. Thanks. —Michael Z. 14:02, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Short summary
Hi, user:Mupper-san. Why do you insist on describing Girkin as “Russian–Ukrainian”? He is not Ukrainian. The article text doesn’t say that. I doubt a single reliable source, whether cited here or not, calls him that. —Michael Z. 19:18, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I would categorise him as Russian-Ukrainian because his separatist actions are not in Russia, but in Ukraine. Thus, he would be a Ukrainian separatist leader, as he leads Ukrainian separatists. Mupper-san (talk) 19:22, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * That is your opinion: WP:OR, WP:SYNTH. It doesn’t fly here, so let’s change it back. —Michael Z. 22:47, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Changed all occurrences of Lugansk to Luhansk
The former reflects the standard Russian pronunciation, and the latter the Ukrainian. The journalistic concensus at the moment is to use the Ukrainian one. --Svennik (talk) 12:04, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

By the above logic, it might be good to instead use the spelling "Lugansk" when quoting from Igor, to reflect his Russia nationalistic attitude. This is in spite of the fact that he wasn't speaking in English. This might be criticised for editorialising. What do people think? --Svennik (talk) 12:09, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
 * UPDATE: Made the change. --Svennik (talk) 13:15, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Sorry, I did not check the talk page before reverting you. The spelling variation in a translation should normally follow our conventional spelling used in the article, and not the political POV of the person quoted. —Michael Z. 14:45, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
 * If you follow this rule too blindly, then, for instance, when quoting a racist, you'll say "African American" instead of "negro". It might come across as comical. Russia Today for instance uses the spelling "Lugansk" instead of "Luhansk". I think my translation reflects the speaker's view better. --Svennik (talk) 18:18, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Unless we interrupt the text with an explanatory note about the creative translation styling for different sources, readers will think it’s sloppy copyediting. Ixnay. —Michael Z. 22:38, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 November 2022
"Donetsk People's Republic (DPR)" should be replaced with "so called Donetsk People's Republic (DPR)" because Donetsk People's Republic (DPR) is not an internationally recognized entity. МишаГер (talk) 12:26, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. MadGuy7023 (talk) 15:08, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

"Club of Angry Patriots"
Girkin is part of the nationalist group of the so called "Club of Angry Patriots" in russia. “People’s Governor of Donetsk Oblast” Pavel Gubarev participates in that group as well. He was demanding a peoples revolution if the russian governement quits war. Girkin is opposing that position inside the movement of angry patriots.

source: https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/ukraine-conflict-updates on april, 18th WikiYeti (talk) 10:15, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

False information
The Wikipedia article about Girkin quotes another article at https://www.businessinsider.com/russias-hawkish-nationalists-who-want-all-out-war-in-ukraine-2022-9 (reference #127) stating that "Several people, including Girkin, have called for tactical nuclear strikes to be used on various targets in order to drive 20 million refugees to Europe". This statement is completely false, as Girkin has never made such calls. He repeated on many occasions that using nuclear weapons in Ukraine is totally unacceptable and can only be put forward by "enemies of Russia". For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67ruZ4SU-As, time 1:20:07; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XFGpdzXhb0; https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Vv7qaf9GECA. There is an inaccurate translation of one of these videos into English: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HljrgW08VBc. Girkin says "in case / if we use nuclear weapons", not "we should use nuclear weapons". Vviralpapillome (talk) 12:49, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

RfC: Translation of the admission
I think the current version of the quote (A) given in the article is suffering from serious gramattical issues and is hard to read. I propose we replace it with a better translation on the right above (B). Both are per sources given. Any objections? AXO NOV (talk) ⚑ 14:17, 17 August 2023 (UTC)


 * This is quite a selective quote from a much longer paragraph. At the the very least, all the omissions should be marked by ellipses.


 * Re. 3rd sentence, he did not claim to be responsible for "everything"; just for the things going on there. My proposal:
 * — kashmīrī  TALK  14:37, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Fixed my proposal. Now it should be much better. I can add elipses as well. AXO NOV  (talk) ⚑ 07:15, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but one says "pull the trigger" in good English, and not "release" it. "Squad" is definitely not a military term whereas Girkin used a Russian equivalent of detachment (I translated it as unit). Then, when talking about the wheel of war, he was specific that he meant the 2014 flareup in the east of Ukraine; if you omit this passage (the war that's still going on there), it sounds as if he claimed to have started the overall Russo-Ukrainian war. — kashmīrī  TALK  08:55, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
 * it sounds as if he claimed to have started the overall Russo-Ukrainian war. That's what have basically happened and what he have claimed. In fact, his criminal group previously had participated in takeover of the Crimean parliament in early 2014, which later turned into an insurgency in the east of Ukraine. The Squad is in fact a military term, and though it doesn't reflect on exact size of his group (he had at least 52 people under his command who took over police station in Slavyansk in 2014 according to Ukranian source ) I think it would be still correct cause afaik the core of his team consisted of at least 12 people. Copycat Republic of Serbian Krajina insurgency was his mere goal at behest of Putin. Putin wanted to repeat NATO-Kosovo playbook.  AXO NOV  (talk) ⚑ 13:03, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @Axonov, I don't want to speculate what Putin wanted. However, Girkin's claim reminds me of the story in How I Unleashed World War II. He crossed the border, and then empires went to war... — kashmīrī  TALK  07:10, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I think Tolstoy’s critique of Great Man theory might be applicable here. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 21:51, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Do you have RS that Girkin’s group, specifically, was involved in the takeover of the Crimean Rada? Or were you broadly referring to the Russian military-intelligence complex when you said ? RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 21:54, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I think "detachment" would be fine. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 05:17, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment First of all, please provide a link to the original Russian text being quoted. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 23:15, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
 * It's in the sources:  AXO NOV  (talk) ⚑ 09:26, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I’m not really seeing why the current text is a problem. It sounds a bit Russian, but is perfectly comprehensible. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 05:13, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I’m not really seeing why the current text is a problem. It sounds a bit Russian, but is perfectly comprehensible. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 05:13, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 December 2023
n November 2023, Igor Girkin announced his intention to run as a candidate in the 2024 elections, describing elections in Russia as a "sham" in which "the only winner [referring to Putin] is known in advance".[161] On 24 December 2024, hundreds of people gathered for a demonstration in Moscow in which they expressed their support for Girkin's candidacy.[162]

In the last sentence, the correct date would be 24 December 2023 (instead of 2024). (As cited by [162])

Please change the date 2024 to 2023. 95.65.92.146 (talk) 13:34, 28 December 2023 (UTC)


 * ✅ Prolog (talk) 14:29, 28 December 2023 (UTC)