Talk:Ila (Hinduism)/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: Liqudluck ✽ talk  03:08, 29 November 2009 (UTC) Hello! I noticed this on the front page when it was a DYK, so I was poised to notice it on the GA nominations list. It's a very interesting article, and at first glance I don't see any major problems. I'll look more carefully and have my comments up soon.

Preliminary glances
For the most part, this article meets the Good Article standard. It is informative, explains jargon well, and is written in a nice, chronological manner. The prose generally demonstrates good word choice. There are problems with grammar and sentence structure, but those should be easily fixed.

Links and citations

 * Kurus links to a disambiguation page.


 * Citations 3, 7, 8, 9, 12, 21, 23, and 25 are all links to Google books. Please format them according to Template:cite book


 * Done. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 15:51, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Lead

 * I think the opening sentence would be better worded "Ila is an androgyne in Hindu mythology, cursed to change his sex every other month."
 * The version of every month sex change is not unanimous in the scriptures. The sex change after her birth is also important. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 14:57, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Good points. Liqudluck ✽ talk  06:07, 2 December 2009 (UTC)


 * As a woman, Ilā married god Budha, son of Soma and bore him a son called Pururavas, the father of the Ailas ("descendants of Ilā") or the Lunar Dynasty. Delete "or the Lunar Dynasty", and define what the Ailas were.
 * Ailas is a synonym for the Lunar Dynasty (Somavansha) of kings. -- Redtigerxyz  Talk 14:57, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for clarifying. Liqudluck ✽ talk  06:07, 2 December 2009 (UTC)


 * In the lead, you state Ila is praised as Idā, the goddess of speech, and in Vedic literature you state Ilā is also known as Idā and is identified with Rigvedic goddess of the same name.
 * First, it appears Ila should be Ilā in Ila is praised as Idā. Second, are Ilā and Idā the same character, or are they separate?
 * Idā is a synonym of Ila in later Hindu Puranic literature. The Vedic Idā is like a predecessor of the Puranic Ilā. A similar analogy is about the Vedic Rudra and Puranic Shiva (Rudra is now a synonym of Shiva). -- Redtigerxyz Talk 15:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Mention something about how several versions of the tale exist in the lead.
 * Sorry, what exactly do you mean is unclear to me. How the legends developed was not covered in the references. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 15:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Add a sentence or phrase stating something like, "While many versions of the tale exist, Ila is usually described as a daughter or son of Vaivasvata Manu...". That's only a suggestion. I mean to say, have the lead say something about the variety of versions. This prepares the reader for the several versions discussed later on, and further hints that Ila is not always a child of Manu. I hope this is clearer. Liqudluck ✽ talk  06:07, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Should I move the "The tale of Ila's transformations is told in the Puranic literature as well as the Hindu epics Ramayana and Mahabharata." sentence above in the lead. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 06:31, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 * No, it looks fine to me now. Liqudluck ✽ talk  19:34, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Birth

 * The Linga Purana and the Mahabharata narrate the following version of the legend of Ilā. change to According to the Linga Purana and the Mahabharata, Ilā was born as...
 * Done. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 15:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Unless there is a purpose I don't see, delete "(literally "trust")". The article is about Ila, so unless his mother's name is important to the legend, it is unnecessary.
 * Done. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 15:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Ila's parents did not have any children for a long time --did they choose not to have children, or were they unable to? If they were unable to, clarify this in the article.
 * Ila's parents could not have any children for a long time -- Redtigerxyz Talk 15:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)


 * a yagna (fire sacrifice) dedicated to deities Mitra and Varuna Delete "deities"- this has already been established.
 * Done. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 15:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Is there a reason to link both Mitra and Varuna as well as Mitra-Varuna? For example, are the dieties only referred to only as Mitra-Varuna in the Bhagavata Purana, Kurma Purana, Harivamsa, Markandeya Purana and Padma Purana?
 * Done. Usually the deities are referred as a pair (compound word) Mitra-Varuna. Though the link is not necessary. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 15:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Ila's curse and marriage to Budha

 * The article leaps from birth to Ila as a king. Is there any information about how Ila became a king? Liqudluck ✽ talk  06:07, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Not in these major texts. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 06:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete ", where Skanda - the son of Shiva was born". It is not important to the story of Ila.
 * The Skanda part is part of the desciption of the forest. It hints that the divine couple had sex there. An explicit story about Śaravana - the sacred grove of goddess Parvati exists, which narrates that the couple were having sex there when sages intruded. So Shiva declared that anyone entering the forest would turn into a woman. Should I include the story in the text or a note?  -- Redtigerxyz  Talk 06:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC)


 * "but the compassionate goddess reduced the curse..." --Add the name of the goddess.
 * I thought "he trespassed Śaravana - the sacred grove of goddess Parvati, the wife of Shiva". was enough, so Parvati was not named again. Added her name. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 06:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you, it makes it more clear as the first two clauses of the sentence only mention Shiva. Liqudluck ✽ talk  19:34, 5 December 2009 (UTC)


 * "... allowing Ila to become a man for alternate months, but in neither gender, he would neither the other state." --This is a confusing sentence fragment. Please add verbs.
 * remember is the verb needed. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 06:53, 2 December 2009 (UTC)


 * "and the son of the moon-god Chandra - who turned to asceticism -" Delete, unnecessary. Buddha is already linked and "the god of the planet Mercury" is enough.
 * "the son of the moon-god Chandra" is important as it explains why Pururavas's race is called the Lunar Dynasty. "who turned to asceticism" - ascetics have given up all pleasures, but Ila's beauty turned an ascetic into a householder again. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 06:53, 2 December 2009 (UTC)


 * "Budha taken Ilā's attendants into Kimpurushas (hermaphrodite, lit. "what? man")[15][10] and they ran away." --Please clarify this sentence. Why did they run away?
 * Clarified. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 06:53, 2 December 2009 (UTC)


 * "She married Budha and spent an entire month making love with him." --Start a new paragraph before this sentence and replace she with "Ilā".
 * The para is not broken as "According to the Ramayana" story continues. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 06:53, 2 December 2009 (UTC)


 * "Then, as per the advice of Budha and Ila's father Kardama,"
 * Please add "According to the Ramayana,..."
 * Do the Linga Purana or Mahabharata discuss Ilā's marriage to Buddha?
 * Mahabharata does not explicitly mention Ilā's marriage to Buddha. Ilā is mentioned as mother and father of Puruvaras. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 07:17, 2 December 2009 (UTC)


 * "The Bhagavata Purana et al. texts" --et al. is poor WP:TONE, and it is not clear what texts you are referring to.
 * The Birth section has the sentence "The Bhagavata Purana,[3] Kurma Purana, Harivamsa, Markandeya Purana and Padma Purana..." so I did not want to repeat the names. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 06:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Last comments
Thank you for responding quickly. I only have a few last comments, so to make access easier I am grouping them together here. Once these comments are addressed, I'll go through a quick copy-edit of the article to fix minor grammar errors and pass the article. Liqudluck ✽ talk 19:34, 5 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete ", where Skanda - the son of Shiva was born". It is not important to the story of Ila.
 * The Skanda part is part of the desciption of the forest. It hints that the divine couple had sex there. An explicit story about Śaravana - the sacred grove of goddess Parvati exists, which narrates that the couple were having sex there when sages intruded. So Shiva declared that anyone entering the forest would turn into a woman. Should I include the story in the text or a note?  -- Redtigerxyz  Talk 06:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 * A note would be alright, although not in the text; it is unneccessary to the tale of Ila himself. Perhaps you can create the article as a stub with this text and link to it here. (Note that creating the stub is not neccessary to this GA.) Liqudluck ✽ talk  19:34, 5 December 2009 (UTC)


 * "and the son of the moon-god Chandra - who turned to asceticism -" Delete, unnecessary. Buddha is already linked and "the god of the planet Mercury" is enough.
 * "the son of the moon-god Chandra" is important as it explains why Pururavas's race is called the Lunar Dynasty. "who turned to asceticism" - ascetics have given up all pleasures, but Ila's beauty turned an ascetic into a householder again. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 06:53, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Move "the son of the moon-god Chandra" to Descendents and last days; it makes "known as Ailas or the Lunar Dynasty - named after Ilā." clearer. Liqudluck ✽ talk  19:34, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Add the information you have written above ("Ila's beauty turned an ascetic into a householder again") to the article. Liqudluck ✽ talk  19:34, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Done about ascetic, but the son of the moon-god Chandra needs to be where it is, the scriptures describe him as son of Chandra, not as god of the planet. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 05:10, 6 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Change "Last days and descendents" header to "Later life and descendents" (it isn't only his dying days that are discussed here).
 * Done. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 04:47, 6 December 2009 (UTC)


 * "Later, Ila was changed into a boy by divine grace. When Ila was wandering mistakenly in a sacred grove, Ila was cursed to change his/her gender every month or cursed to become a woman."
 * Change "Later" to "In versions in which Ila is born male, she is changed to a boy by divine grace soon after her birth".
 * Change "When Ila was wandering mistakenly in a sacred grove, Ila was cursed to change his/her gender every month or cursed to become a woman." to "After mistakenly entering a sacred grove as an adult, Ila was cursed to change his/her gender every month or cursed to become a woman."
 * Done. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 04:47, 6 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Format citation 25 per cite book.
 * Done. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 04:47, 6 December 2009 (UTC)


 * New Is it possible to refer to the Bhagavata Purana et al texts as Puranic literature instead?
 * No. 1. The whole Puranas consist of 18 main + 18 sub texts. 2.  Harivamsa in the list is not part of the Puranas 3. Vayu Purana and the Brahmanda Purana, which give a variant, are part of the Puranas. -- Redtigerxyz  Talk 03:21, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * New "Linga Purana and Mahabharata state that as Sudyumma, he bore three sons named Utkala, Gaya and Vinatashva (or Haritashva or Vinata), who ruled the kingdom as he himself was unable to rule due to his alternating gender."
 * New*Were the sons' names Utkala, Gaya and Vinatashva; Haritashva and Vinata; Utkala, Haritashva, and Vinata; or something else?
 * Vinatashva is also called or replaced by Haritashva or Vinata.-- Redtigerxyz Talk 03:56, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * New*Were the sons born before Ila entered the grove and became a female, or after Ila gave bith to Puravas? The lead says after the birth of Puravas, but then the sons never could have become kings because Sudyumma had stopped switching genders by the time they were born.
 * They were born after Pururavas's birth. "Linga Purana and Mahabharata record the birth of Pururavas, but do not narrate the end of Ila's alternating gender condition" -- Redtigerxyz Talk 03:56, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * New "Ila's father passed his inheritance directly to Pururavas, the son of Ilā - the female, but the three sons of Ila - the man, got no inheritance." Please clarify. What about the three sons of Ila?
 * I believe you were trying to say that Puravas received an inheritance, but the three sons did not; I have changed it to this in the article, but please change it back if that is not correct. Liqudluck ✽ talk  02:56, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Right. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 03:56, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * New "Pleased with his austeriies, the Goddess emerged before Sudyumma in his female form Ilā." Did the Goddess appear as Ilā, or did Sudyumma appear as Ilā?
 * Sudyumma ssuned the form of Ilā. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 03:56, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * New "The Bhagavata Purana, Devi-Bhagavata Purana and Linga Purana declare that Ila ascended to heaven with both male as well as female distinguishing characteristics." Do you mean both male and female anatomy? If so, clarify this in the article. It would be helpful to add what the exact characteristics are; remember that Wikipedia is not censored.
 * The exact characteristics are unnamed explicitly in the references I referred. Male and female anatomy is implicit. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 03:21, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * New "Idā in the Rigveda, signifies food and refreshment, personified as the goddess of speech." Do you mean that food and refreshment are personified as speech? Or do you mean that Ida is the goddess of speech, food and refreshment?
 * Ida literally denotes food and refreshment (essentially in context of sacrifice), but she is personified as the goddess of speech. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 03:49, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * New "Ilā is mentioned a number of times in the Rigveda" Shouldn't this be Ida is mentioned a number of times?
 * Done. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 03:43, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * New "She was claimed by Mitra-Varuna" what does this mean?
 * Ida is essentially a sacrificial reward, portion of this reward is claimed by Mitra-Varuna. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 03:49, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * New "Pururavas is mentioned as the son of Ila in the text." Shouldn't this be the son of Ilā?
 * Done. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 03:43, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Result
Pass. This well researched article provides enough context and explanatory information that it is useful to those with little prior knowledge of the subject. My concerns have been addressed and to the best of my knowledge, Ila (Hinduism) meets the GA standards for prose and model of style. And, while effort is not a reason to support an article, the amount of work and patience that was put into this article and GA review is commendable. Liqudluck ✽ talk 05:07, 8 December 2009 (UTC)