Talk:Ilias Psinakis

Cleanup needed
Obviously I'm not wanted to work on this article. It needs persondata and an infobox. It needs to show when and where he got his degree, with a citation of course. Fthis and yupii need to be confirmed as WP:RS. Any uncited statements need removed. This is a BLP after all. Jerod Lycett (talk) 15:51, 4 April 2015 (UTC) Fthis and yupii exist as sources in other Wiki articles about Greek personalities, for instance Sakis Rouvas As for personal data about education - for public were only presented the said info and to this extent it is confirmed by the provided sources, in particular by The most unconventional character in Greek show business became Athens’ first municipal councilLanaSimba (talk) 01:00, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
 * That doesn't indicate that they are WP:RS. If we can get a neutral third party in to confirm them, then we can move on. The article you provided doesn't show when nor where. London has many colleges, not all of them are fully accredited. Jerod Lycett (talk) 22:00, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Social life
This section belongs in a tabloid newspaper, not an encyclopedia. The content may well be verifiable but that doesn't mean that it has to be included. It's promotional name-dropping and needs to be removed. SmartSE (talk) 23:06, 17 July 2015 (UTC) These data is a part of the person biography widely known in Greece, it is completely confirmed by SEVERAL different sources provided, each of which is a reliable internet media, well known in Greece (for instance the TOC and others specified here), except for that this data is specified in the official site of Marathon municipality (http://site.marathon.gr/dimarxos.html). Also the data is well confirmed by provided photos, so it is definitely shall be included in the article. LS 12:59, 19 July 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by LanaSimba (talk • contribs)

Edit September 2016
I added the fact and source on the fact of awarding Tom Hanks & Rita Wilson with 4 reliable sources from the Greek newspapers 2 links of which are in English, showing the total relation of the fact to the personality, who among other matters is the founder of the Medal, which he gives as the Mayor of the city. The edit was deleted by an editor, who claims it irrelevant, the text with links was the following: ''American actor Tom Hanks and his Greek origin wife, actress Rita Wilson, accepted the Medal of the Legion of Marathon from the Mayor, who is their longtime friend, for numerous activities to promote Greece and its culture around the world. ''  LS 20:56, 2 September 2016 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by LanaSimba (talk • contribs)


 * Just because this can be verified does not mean that it is suitable to include in the article. Why is this a significant event in Psinakis' life? This is just like the name-dropping that was present in the 'social life' section and as I said, is irrelevant to a biography on Psinakis. SmartSE (talk) 17:17, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
 * To be honest I don't see why a few prominent recipients of the medal shouldn't be mentioned in the article. --Michig (talk) 19:59, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Michig because it is a part of professional activities, aimed at social purposes, and the recipients contribute to the purposes a lot, so I think worth to be covered, may be in short, but still.. but now the matter is not only in this listing, but in the whole "rewriting" of the article ...

The facts, that directly relate to a public person professional activities, are significant, informational and suitable for article about this person (Biography), isn't it obvious? Any biography is not just a list of events, but also an interaction with people...Moreover, the person is professionally engaged in public relations, and his interaction with people is a significant part of his work. I agree there may be just mentioning or short listing of some facts, but when these are confirmed by numerous reliable sources, have broad coverage in the media, are of professional and social importance, these TO BE mentioned. So called "name-dropping" in "social life" section is neither more nor less than the list of people, with whom the person used and still uses to collaborate and associate in professional and social level, so this list is also an essential part of this person biography, as well as other details, which were abusively deleted. Smartse, you obviously can't judge the contents, because you do not know the subject at all, even can't spell the Greek name correctly. You deleted the name of the mother (do you believe she also has no relation to the biography?), who was mentioned in many sources (the 1st source, for instance). The same story with the date of birth... Although before, Winklve deleted several sources without checking, which is pure and simple Vandalism, and on my talkpage had threatened me with blocking when I tried to correct the issues...And why in general should any issues (with substantiating links) be deleted only on the basis of a PERSONAL opinion of some editor without previous discussion? The same with editing of the picture, which is an original artwork. The original copy was deleted, croped and I was for an attempt to revert its original form. What is all this? I ask for independent analysis of the situation!! --LS 20:30, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

Edit request
For some reason, the infobox photo that has been appearing in the correct dimensions is no longer doing do. Is this a Commons issue with the photo or is it something that can be corrected with a file edit in the infobox? Whatever the case, it needs to be fixed. Thanks! -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 14:44, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I removed the unnecessary File tag and it now looks ok to me. --Michig (talk) 14:55, 4 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Many thanks, . -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 14:58, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

As the initial author of the page I request return of the original form of the picture, I DISAGREE with cropping! I also DISAGREE with previous deletion of facts from the page, as I wrote before. --LS 15:14, 4 September 2016 (UTC)


 * As is already being explained to you at Commons here, you licensed the original photo at Commons under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International license which allows for free use and modifications. After that, you have no right to keep anyone from modifying it.  -- WV ● ✉ ✓  15:20, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I disagree with MOST of edits, WV, that you made to the page. you have no idea about the subject, and can't decide what is matching and what is not. LS 15:26, 4 September 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by LanaSimba (talk • contribs)


 * With these most recent comments from you, as well as those at WP:AN3, at Commons , and your disruptive editing there , I think at this point WP:IDHT applies in addition to WP:COMPETENCE. You are refusing to listen to everyone who has tried to help you and get you on the right track.  You have refused to attempt to understand Wikipedia policy and guidelines.  Combined, this all adds up to WP:NOTHERE.  It could be time for an admin or two to take further action. Pinging .  -- WV ● ✉ ✓  15:58, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I refuse to listen to you WV, cause you obviously decided to deplete the page. As year before, when you insisted on its total deletion. I still wait for reasonable opinion and help of and Admin or an author to find the compromise.--LS 16:06, 4 September 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by LanaSimba (talk • contribs)
 * LanaSimba, your behavior at Commons reflects your ownership behavior here. Why have you focused all your time on Wikipedia on this particular subject? --Neil N  talk to me 17:01, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Neil N  May be I do ownership behavior in this particular case, I had to defend, now already myself, not just the article or picture.. But as I told already, I am open for reasonable edits, and disagree ones depleting the story. The same regulation you mention, says "Even though editors can never "own" an article, it is important to respect the work and ideas of your fellow contributors. Therefore, be cautious when removing or rewriting large amounts of content, particularly if this content was written by one editor; it is more effective to try to work with the editor than against them—even if you think they are acting as if they "own" the article. (See also Wikipedia:Civility, Wikipedia:Etiquette and Wikipedia:Assume good faith.)". As for another subject, I don't want to undergo all this anymore, facing some editors, who prefer form over substance, practice pressure, threats.Neil N Thanks for your tolerance and desire to cooperate! --LS 17:25, 4 September 2016 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by LanaSimba (talk • contribs)

Edit Request - contents
I request Administrators to add the previously deleted information on the date of birth 8 of April 1958, the information is confirmed by the 1st, 5th and 8th links. As well as correctly to point out parents of the personality Panagiotis (Notis) Psinakis and Aliki Psinaki as they officially mentioned in the 1st link, as well as here is the additional link for confirming the information: http://www.ypervasinews.gr/news/?p=186143.--LS 16:55, 4 September 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by LanaSimba (talk • contribs)

Stability and readability
The article has been restored back to the last stable and most readable version. Any disagreement with this change should be discussed here rather than the article being reverted back in an edit warring fashion. Thanks,-- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">WV ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓ 05:41, 13 November 2016 (UTC)


 * I have further edited the article by removing undue weight, cleaning up grammar and sentence structure, bringing it closer to what's outlined in the MOS for BLPs, removing POV and peacocking, creating a more encyclopedic tone. -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">WV ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓  14:38, 13 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Winkelvi's edits are a vast improvement, in my view, and long overdue. Voceditenore (talk) 15:10, 13 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Agree. I hope everyone can work together on it now... Iadmc (Jubileeclipman) (talk) 15:41, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Just tried to verify birthdate and it appears many of the links are dead/moved etc or not entirely reliable. This need fixing by someone with better knowledge of the man and Greek newspapers/journals etc. Thanks Iadmc (Jubileeclipman) (talk) 15:49, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
 * "Knowledge of the man" suggests original research. We can't have that, of course, as it goes against policy.  One of the biggest problems with this English Wikipedia article is many of the references are not from English sources and cannot be verified.  That's a big problem for a BLP. -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">WV ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓  16:03, 13 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Iadmc (Jubileeclipman) 1) Substantiating links were in the version, which was discarded, for instance this one http://www.ypervasinews.gr/news/?p=186143 and this one http://www.press-news.gr/o-il-psinakis-apokalipse-tin-ilikia-tou-dite-posa-kerakia-iche-i-tourta-tou-dimarchou-marathona-ikones/#_ . But still the the birthdate is substantiated in the 1st link.

2) Full name of father- Panagiotis - abbreviated name Notis (full name should be written) and I think it is relevant to specify names of both parents in a biography. 3) I also disagree with integration of all the projects and activities into one clause, cause it makes mix of data. 4) for Winklvi: If somebody does not speak some language, that fact doesn't mean a problem for others, but just a reason for this person not to involve into such matters.

Iadmc (Jubileeclipman) Off topic: I try to sign with this sign LS 16:13, 13 November 2016 (UTC), but my posts still remain unsigned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LanaSimba (talk • contribs)

Sign your posts on talk pages: ~ You can find it at the bottom of the edit window. Or four tildes: Shift and # times four in Windows Iadmc (Jubileeclipman) (talk) 21:54, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank YOU! actually I always used this 4-tildes sign at the bottom, but there was a problem in my preferences, where I checked the sine markup... Now it works! LanaSimba (talk) 00:18, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Now after Winklvi edits there will appear notes that this or that data is not confirmed, while confirming links were deleted together with other facts. Making the article laconic, does not mean making it poorer. Here is the link to version, containing ALL the substantiating links. Full Version LS 16:28, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Oh. One last point. This guy's alive. That means he's covered by Biographies of living persons. Iadmc (Jubileeclipman) (talk) 22:28, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Winklvi: I meant "knowledge" in the sense I know Barack Obama. I.e. not personally but enough to get a sense of the veracity of an article and its citations. Also, foreign languages are not a major problem: I use a translation plug-in in Firefox. Not perfect but enough to understand the page or selection. My issue is that I have no idea which papers—beyond the British broadsheets, tabloids and periodicals, and some North American and European publications—are reliable sources rather than a gossip sheet knocked out in someone's shed.
 * LanaSimba: I don't know enough about the subject to help beyond copy-edits.
 * Both: I am happy to help with any disputes you have, if I can. I suggest you both start by verifying all the sources (including those LanaSimba has produced), both for reliability and availability. Find more if you can. Then move on to the facts in the article. After that you can quibble about stylistic things such as precisely where data is placed. I can only offer limited help as I'm on a huge project of my own! Iadmc (Jubileeclipman) (talk) 21:48, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Add: There appears to be no Greek Wikipedia page for Ηλίας Ψινάκης. He is mentioned in the following, however: Marathon City; Marathon; Arion Music Awards; Nea Makri; Sakis Rouvas; Greek local elections, 2014; Your Face Sounds Familiar (Ελλάδα) [all titles translated by google plug-in]. See here. Not sure what all that means... Iadmc (Jubileeclipman) (talk) 22:23, 13 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Iadmc (Jubileeclipman) You are definitely an adequate person, and understand that it is weird to write about something unknown to you :)) That is why Your edits are respectful and relevant. I several times tried to explain to Winklvi that he is unaware of the subject to delete facts or judge the contents, but he is still insisting and always in very aggressive, indisputable manner, and for some reason stuck on this page. I have no idea about motives of that person, don't want to know and definitely I do not want to contact in any way. Let other people judge him. As for the page I had many times brought all the links (which are official webpages, reliable Greek online newspapers, some sources are in English). All of them are still provided here Full Version. There are numerous sources available online. And hundreds more can be retrieved. I had written this article from the very beginning and never wrote a tiny issue from my personal point of view or unsubstantiated. When I added some new data, I considered edits made by another editors. There is no Greek page, you are right, and Ηλίας Ψινάκης is mentioned in the pages which subjects relate to him. He participated in Arion music awards, was manager of Sakis Rouvas, he is Mayor of Marathon (which territory includes among other districts Nea Makri) and participates in arrangement of athletic marathon, he was a judge in the Greek TV shows like Ellada Exeis Talento, participated in elections 2010 and 2014. That is the brief description of the above mentions. Most of these facts are specified in the above full version. As far as I can judge none of contents ever violated Biographies of living persons. If there was a need to edit it in terms of laconism, it would be reasonable to EDIT, and not to rewrite loosing a half of content and links. LanaSimba (talk) 00:18, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Looking at your contributions, LanaSimba, this seems to be the only article you edit with very little exception. In interest of full disclosure, are you affliated with Ilias Psinakis in any way?  That means are you related to, work for him, work for a company that works for him, etc.  This wouldn't mean you can't edit, but it does mean that you are ethically obligated to declare any conflict of interest here.  Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 00:52, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Ok this is clearly an edit war and it might be worth the two of you considering dispute resolution as it has been going on for over a year it seems. To be fair, LanaSimba, you also seem to be "stuck on this page". Indeed, it is all you edit, more or less... as Dennis Brown has just noted also. That's why people think you have a vested interest. Or part if the reason. Remember, no one owns articles, even those they create. As soon as the first edit is published the article becomes common property. Arguably, that's one of the weaknesses of Wikipedia. But it's also one of its strengths as sooner or later someone will come along who has the knowledge and skills to make the article really great. In the mean time don't worry about getting it perfect or in a set style etc: you're on a losing battle if you do that as the article WILL BE EDITED and take a life of its own. Anyway, didn't mean to lecture. Just been around here too long, I guess (including my past life)... I do hope you two can work together. Otherwise, why not leave this for a while and edit something else? Iadmc (Jubileeclipman) (talk) 00:59, 14 November 2016 (UTC)


 * No, it's not (yet) an edit war situation. Two people have be involved in edit warring for that to be the case.  I have not done that.  Lana Simba has, however, in the past gamed WP:3RR by waiting until 24 hours has passed to revert back to her preferred version of the article.  The article has been fully protected previously because of her insistence on edit warring over it.,.


 * Yes,, this article is a WP:BLP and policy needs to be followed accordingly. There is also a thing called WP:MOS, WP:UNDUE, WP:PEACOCK, WP:RESUME, and WP:POV.  In the past, all of these policies have been violated repeatedly by the other editor (who seems to have a WP:SPA and only one reason for being here).  There have been serious issues in the past with this editor, at this article, in the way of WP:OWN and WP:EW.  Their editing has really been quite WP:TENDITIOUS and pointy as well.  And then there's the problem of what seems to be a serious lack of adequate English language skills - WP:COMPETENCE is required to edit here, after all, and they seem to lack that required competence to a certain degree.  I'm not here to slam that editor, just make the history a little more known.  I'd actually love for them to contribute cooperatively and collegially as well as accept what others do at the article rather than only accepting additions to or polishing of their own edits.  Dennis Brown seems to be addressing one issue that I have wondered about previously in regard to the other editors contributions and possible WP:COI.  I'm only interested in the article being decent and not a puff-piece with the problems I listed above.  -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">WV ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓  01:11, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Well, I did wonder too... it would be useful if LanaSimba made it clear just why she is so fixated with this particular article. Looking at your edits, you seem to be a pretty rounded and seasoned editor by contrast. Perhaps take a step back for a while? After all there is no deadline as long as there is nothing contentious in the article. Iadmc (Jubileeclipman) (talk) 01:33, 14 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Combined content that violates policy and lacks readability is a problem, period. -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">WV ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓ 01:36, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

I mean nothing Mr Psinakis could object to. But I take your point. Then again, WP:COMPETENCE is not actually a policy and grammar, syntax, style etc can always be cleaned up... which is what has been attempted, along with the other cleanups you mentioned... I assume the reject references were unreliable? If so I fear an impasse approaching. Iadmc (Jubileeclipman) (talk) 02:03, 14 November 2016 (UTC)


 * You're right, it's not policy, but that doesn't make it any less relevant, true, or important in the functioning of the encyclopedia. The following portions of the essay are quite relevant to what we've got going on here:


 * Bias-based
 * Some editors hold personal opinions so strongly that they cannot edit neutrally and collaboratively with other editors. If this continues to be disruptive and a user is unable to step away from topics where they have strong biases, a topic ban is generally appropriate. Try this first before going for a site ban, because some people can make valuable contributions in places other than their pet topic. It is often very difficult to see one's own biased editing, though it is easy to see that of others.
 * Language difficulty
 * If someone's native language is not English and they can't communicate in English well—including discussing things with other editors—consider trying to encourage them to edit a Wikipedia in their own language. Those other-language Wikipedias need help from editors, too.
 * There is also the problem of editors whose command of English is sufficient for colloquial use, and who can make themselves understood on talk pages and in other informal circumstances, but who do not write sufficiently well in English that their contributions to articles are acceptable. These editors could also be encouraged to edit the Wikipedia of their native language or other languages they are more conversant with, and to limit their contributions on English Wikipedia articles to edits that do not require writing in English that is beyond their capabilities, or to work with native speakers to improve their contributions.
 * Editing beyond one's means
 * Some people aren't able to grasp the subtleties of how Wikipedia works. They may still be able to do some easy jobs, but they'll probably run into trouble if they try biting off too much. Encourage them to keep to the simple things, or suggest a break if they're getting frustrated about their edits getting reverted.
 * -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">WV ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓ 02:17, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Questions to be addressed

 * QUESTION 1: Why is there no Greek Wikipedia article on Ilias Psinakis?
 * QUESTION 2: Why is LanaSimba not creating that article?
 * QUESTION 3: Let's directly ask Dennis Brown's question above – do you,, have any direct, personal or professional connection with Ilias Psinakis?
 * Thanks, Iadmc (Jubileeclipman) (talk) 02:46, 14 November 2016 (UTC)


 * I'm not too keen on this section. It's singling out and calling out an editor (let admins take care of that kind of thing if it needs to be done) and is overly aggressive in its tone. -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">WV ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓  03:00, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Dear Iadmc (Jubileeclipman) I will respond to you, cause I still consider you one of just several adequate persons, whom I met in this really weird virtual space named Wiki. You have your own project there (as you mentioned above) which seems very interesting and I will read it with a great pleasure. Now, imagine this kind of editors come to make "contributions". Let's hope they will not. I wish you good luck! LanaSimba (talk) 11:41, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Have fun, guys!
HAHAHAHA )))))))) I AM GIVING FREE PLAY TO YOUR CONGREGATE IMAGINATION... LanaSimba (talk) 11:36, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
 * OK. Thanks for stepping back and allowing others to edit. I and others would still like to know if you are at all connected with the subject. The issue is simply that if you are your contributions may be biased and out of step with the normal practice on Wikipedia. See the Behavioural Guideline Conflict of interest for more. You may still edit. No issue there. But if you do, please give others the courtesy to further edit the article. Thank you for your understanding, LanaSimba. Iadmc (Jubileeclipman) (talk) 19:45, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

''The previous questions have no relation to contents of the article, none of facts ever posted were anyhow embellished or unsubstantiated to accuse me in being biased. This article and talk page is not about me. As initial author of this article I just feel responsible for correctness of data provided, that is all.'' LanaSimba (talk) 22:58, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Broken link, place of birth, new facts.
In this VERSION I had deleted the broken link № 3 (which is probably expired), added some more links, substantiating contents and facts of biography, for example the name of mother, release of song etc, other facts of biography... I had corrected information about the place of birth, because if to read attentively none of the sources contain any data that it is Philippines. I also had added new data about collaboration with China, substantiated by official website of Embassy and by reliable Greek website. I ask editors like Iadmc (Jubileeclipman),<b style="color:navy">Neil N </b>, Michig and others, please read the sources and check the recent reversions made by Winklvi in terms of WP:COMPETENCE or in terms of other policies (which, please, decide yourself) in order the article finally contain proper and sourced data. Current revision is a summary made by another user many months ago, who probably didn't read the details attentively. Let the article at least contain proper data, if there are people who claim that it contains something redundant. LanaSimba (talk) 16:26, 2 December 2016 (UTC)


 * See the following link for comparing the version you re-edited and the current version  Based on this comparison, I have the following comments:
 * "Early years and education" Early life and education is pretty status quo and standard wording as a section header for BLPs.  Because of this, it should stay as it is.
 * Birth date in the lede. I missed this in the return to the last stable version of the article.  This was an oversight and will be rectified.  His complete birth date should be noted as long as it is well-referenced.
 * "Athens, Greece, to parents Panagiotis Psinakis and Aliki Psinaki. His father owned a factory producing electrical appliances. He has a younger brother Giorgos." None of this is sourced.  Everything that replaced it is sourced and accurate.  It should, therefore, stay as it is currently.  We don't allow unsourced content in BLPs to stand.
 * "Psinakis attended school in Lycee Leonin. At university, he studied international business and international marketing in the UK receiving master's degrees in each. Later Psinakis has always appreciated social life and became friends with famous people in the arts, theatre, fashion design and show business in Greece and abroad." Contains a combination of unsourced content and undue weight content that amounts to the stuff of gossip/fan sites.  Neither is appropriate for a BLP or encyclopedia.
 * "His television appearances received high ratings" Unsourced and POV.  As such, it's inappropriate for an encyclopedia article.
 * "In 2008 Psinakis, himself, tried as singer, recording the song "Έχω πρόβλημα υγείας" (I have a health problem) (Music: Dimitris Kontopoulos, Lyrics: Manos Eleftheriou), which became a hit. The music video was shot." Improperly sourced. Badly written.  Removed for those reasons.
 * "During the official visit, the Mayor and the President had a discussion on the historical significance of the Municipality and future development of culture, tourism and sport in Marathon and, generally, in Greece." WP:UNDUE and has no encyclopedic value.
 * "...the President of the European Commission Jean-Claude Juncker" Undue weight.  Those already listed are enough.
 * "The organization also helps to develop the local community, improve the living standards of Marathon citizens and promote environmental consciousness. Public men and organizations cooperate in these efforts." Undue weight - the article is about Psinakis, not the organization.  More about the organization is of no encyclopedic value and does not increase the understanding of the article subject to the reader.
 * "The initiative became international, when China, as a country having rich culture and heritage joined the Amphictyony. Psinakis also negotiates for cooperation with other countries." More undue weight and puts the article over-the-top in sounding like a resume or public relations piece.
 * http://www.thetoc.gr/koinwnia/article/psinakis-ellino-kineziki-summaxia-kai-gia-ta-marmara-tou-parthenwna Overcite and unverifiable -- that's why it was removed.
 * "where he took part in investment negotiations for the tourist development and construction of a history museum in Marathon." "...the tourist development and..." is a poorly executed, ungrammatical addition. Hence, its deletion.
 * "Psinakis organized and held the 1st Chinese-Hellenic Cities Forum for cooperation in business, culture, tourism and other fields." Can't be verified as the cite is in Greek. Unable to find anything on the internet in English that supports this claim so it can be verified.  If it's unverifiable and in a BLP, it goes bye-bye.
 * That's the long and short of why these changes were made, content and sources removed. -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">WV ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓ 23:55, 2 December 2016 (UTC)


 * , it's great that you've responded, however, you can't intersperse your own responses within the comments of others. It's considered refactoring and is inappropriate talk page behavior, against policy.  Please reform your responses in your own response below this one.  Thanks,-- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">WV ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓  02:42, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

3)"Athens, Greece, to parents Panagiotis Psinakis and Aliki Psinaki. His father owned a factory producing electrical appliances. He has a younger brother Giorgos." Sourced HERE and additionally HERE and HERE

4) "Psinakis attended school in Lycee Leonin. At university, he studied international business and international marketing in the UK receiving master's degrees in each. Later Psinakis has always appreciated social life and became friends with famous people in the arts, theatre, fashion design and show business in Greece and abroad." Also sourced HERE and it is online newspaper, not a gossip/fan site. Also mentioned in this English language article and in the above stated sources. 5)"His television appearances received high ratings" sourced HERE and additionally HERE

6) "In 2008 Psinakis, himself, tried as singer, recording the song "Έχω πρόβλημα υγείας" (I have a health problem) (Music: Dimitris Kontopoulos, Lyrics: Manos Eleftheriou), which became a hit. The music video was shot." sourced HERE and HERE both sources are online newspapers.

7) "During the official visit, the Mayor and the President had a discussion on the historical significance of the Municipality and future development of culture, tourism and sport in Marathon and, generally, in Greece." Has the value for understanding of activities of the person, confirmed data

8)"...the President of the European Commission Jean-Claude Juncker" Has the value for understanding of activities of the person, confirmed data

9) "The organization also helps to develop the local community, improve the living standards of Marathon citizens and promote environmental consciousness. Public men and organizations cooperate in these efforts." the organization is founded by the Mayor for the benefit of his Municipality, its purposes worth to be known.

10-11) "The initiative became international, when China, as a country having rich culture and heritage joined the Amphictyony. Psinakis also negotiates for cooperation with other countries." http://www.thetoc.gr/koinwnia/article/psinakis-ellino-kineziki-summaxia-kai-gia-ta-marmara-tou-parthenwna If someone does really significant things, and it is publicly known, that doesn't mean "over-the-top". The TOC is a reliable Greek newspaper. This direct article says about the international cooperation organized by the person. Additional source is HERE

12) "where he took part in investment negotiations for the tourist development and construction of a history museum in Marathon." the purpose of investment is not just museum, but also construction of tourist infrastructure! So stated in the sources. May be reworded, but not deleted. Has importance for understanding of the project.

13) "Psinakis organized and held the 1st Chinese-Hellenic Cities Forum for cooperation in business, culture, tourism and other fields." there were two sources provided in Greek and in English: read carefully. additionally in English, and MORE, and MORE... 

'''Here are the sources of data.. Those who have search skills may easily find more. If someone can't read Greek, this is not the reason to consider Greek language sources unreliable. The article is about Greek person and that is why most sources are in Greek'''

Off-topic: such addiction to form over substance seems to me weird LanaSimba (talk) 11:38, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Form is very important for an encyclopedia. See WP:MOS for more.  As well, see also WP:RELEVANCE, WP:ONUS, and WP:INDISCRIMINATE.  -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">WV ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓  12:28, 3 December 2016 (UTC)


 * So what in the provided information is in breach of the mentioned policies? May be reworded, summarized, but still has DIRECT relation to the personality and helps readers better understand the subject. How can names of parents be excessive information in a Biography? I didn't think that an encyclopedia should be narrow-minded. LanaSimba (talk) 13:52, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Before we go any further, I think something you've been avoiding needs to be addressed again: you really do need to answer the question asked of you several weeks ago here. -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">WV ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓  14:36, 4 December 2016 (UTC)


 * I had already responded above, read carefully: The previous questions have no relation to contents of the article, none of facts ever posted were anyhow embellished or unsubstantiated to accuse me in being biased. This article and talk page is not about me. As initial author of this article I just feel responsible for correctness of data provided, that is all. LanaSimba (talk) 15:33, 4 December 2016 (UTC)


 * No, LanaSimba, you have evaded the question. You have not confirmed that you have no personal or professional affiliation with Ilias Psinakis. The fact that you have uploaded this photograph of him as your "own work", potentially suggests otherwise. The problem with conflict of interest editing and the reason why it is heavily discouraged on Wikipedia, is that such editors find it virtually impossible to see how they are writing articles that read like publicity blurbs. If you do not have a conflict of interest and are simply an admirer, then you should take the advice of experienced editors and stop writing this article as if you do have one. The rather blatant PR in your preferred versions is so obvious to a neutral observer that it looks like a publicity plant and actually detracts from the subject's image rather than enhancing it. Voceditenore (talk) 16:48, 4 December 2016 (UTC)


 * , please respond according to Talk page guidelines, using colons for intending so one can follow to whom you are responding. -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">WV ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓ 17:07, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Voceditenore Taking pictures of persons is not yet direct affiliation. I didn't give my OWN opinions in the article, just translated and summarized the existing sources. As for PR it is quite respected sphere of activities to give such a negative value to it. Ok, this is your opinion and I respect it. But still I would like to stop discussing me here, cause I am not a PR person, not a publicly known person, not intend to be one and consider such an interest as breach of my Privacy. LanaSimba (talk) 17:18, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Then you should stop writing this article as if you had a conflict of interest, LanaSimba. Your versions, which you persist in attempting to restore, make it read like a wholly inappropriate publicity vehicle. Take the advice of experienced editors and cut it out. Voceditenore (talk) 17:39, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Voceditenore Is it an implicit threat? If I continue to write the article, than what? So that are the rules? My privacy is next object? My interest there is only that I initially wrote the article and would like it to contain proper data. Other editors mostly didn't try to understand and verify information. You at least gave a try! Well, I provided all the information with regards to the subject. You gave your comments, thanks for your time and effort to read Greek and clarify things.LanaSimba (talk) 18:08, 4 December 2016 (UTC)


 * , I think we are either dealing with someone who is directly connected with the article subject or an extreme fan of the article subject. Either way, the history of this user shows a few things very plainly (even more so since they are no completely refusing to answer a very direct question re: their involvement/interest in Psinakis).  The things that are undeniable at this time are WP:SPA, WP:NOTHERE, WP:BIAS, WP:OWN, WP:COMPETENCE.  These are recurring issues with this user and, even with the utmost WP:AGF that's been extended to them over and over, I just don't see it changing in the near future. -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">WV ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓  18:21, 4 December 2016 (UTC)


 * LanaSimba, I am not "threatening" you with anything, either implicitly or explicitly. I am telling you bluntly that (a) many of your edits are inappropriate and have explained why (b) you should take the advice of experienced editors (and I am not the first one to tell you that), and (c) you should stop your repeated attempts to restore your inappropriate edits against consensus. That slow kind of edit-warring is disruptive and you have already been blocked once for it. Voceditenore (talk) 18:26, 4 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Voceditenore, (a) With all due respect, Greek and international media, official websites of Embassies and public institutions, which are the sources of the entire information provided here, consider this information appropriate - and their opinion seems to me more authoritative than opinion of private persons, who even do not understand Greek, sorry.  Although, I am noway disregard here any of opinions, just express mine! I've got and respect your comments  (b) I take advice if consider it reasonable. (c) Please, relax, right now, I am not restoring or rewriting anything, here is just a talk page, where people seek consensus. I am not afraid of being blocked, this place is not my priority. I with great pleasure would leave this place myself. As to the interest, I told about mine, congregate imagination goes further (hahaha), and what about others' interest here? Cause they spend so much time to an article which subject they hardly know. Mostly they are not writing their own articles, but reverting and judging others. LanaSimba (talk) 20:17, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * "Greek and international media, official websites of Embassies and public institutions, which are the sources of the entire information provided here, consider this information appropriate - and their opinion seems to me more authoritative than opinion of private persons, who even do not understand Greek" This is the English Wikipedia, not the Greek Wikipedia.  If you are looking for Greek opinions, writing styles, and interest in an article edited from a Greek perspective only on Psinakis, that's the place to write this article and expect the kind of editing and attention to it you seem to seeking here.  Further, Greek media, websites, embassies, public institutions may consider the content important and appropriate for their own publications and websites, but that doesn't mean Wikipedia sees it in the same light.  Wikipedia has policy on inclusion of content, how it is to be written, how much of it is to be written, and why it should be included or not included.  That is our standard here, not what what you've mentioned here (Greek media, websites, embassies, public institutions).  Wikipedia doesn't mirror these things.  Wikipedia uses reliable sources to create and support content.  If none of those things you mentioned falls into the category of reliable sourcing, then it's not utilized as such.  If content in the article doesn't meet the criteria for inclusion, then it's not included.  I really wish you would read more on policy concerning what Wikipedia is and isn't and how we do things here and why.  If you did, and if you absorbed it, I think you would see why your efforts here have been objected to for so long.
 * "what about others' interest here? Cause they spend so much time to an article which subject they hardly know. Mostly they are not writing their own articles, but reverting and judging others." Please keep your comments to being about edits and not editors and what you feel about them personally.  You're skating very close to violating WP:NPA. -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">WV ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓  21:36, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Winkelvi 1) Your policies' committed position is clear. I hope a lot that Wiki is not just a set of policies, but content of proper information. So, just try to get into subject matter before applying policies. for example, as Voceditenore did. 2) Weren't you evidently many times judging me personally in previous posts? what about WP:NPA? LanaSimba (talk) 22:36, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

If you want to move forward in a collegial and cooperative manner, my suggestion is you do so beginning today. Mentioning the past in a threatening manner is going to put this discussion in a tailspin, quickly. Just watch the personal attacks from here on out and concentrate on discussing edits rather than editors from this moment forward, ok? 22:50, 4 December 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Winkelvi (talk • contribs)
 * I have already submitted most of the info, if I have any other sources or facts, I will share.LanaSimba (talk) 23:49, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Have you seen the critique below by Voceditenore regarding the "info" you posted above? -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">WV ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓ 23:55, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, and I respect Voceditenore' opinion, as I told. Although I still think the 12th point should mention construction of tourism facilities (or a similar rewording), cause it was the purpose of investments. Otherwise the statement is inaccurate according to source. And here is in English Actually I would somehow just join the current statements. For instance: "In an effort to revitalize Marathon, Psinakis has worked with Greek and Chinese investors to create a Riviera-style attraction and international tourist destination, including construction of museum. For that purpose in May 2016 he made trip to China where he took part in investment negotiations" or in similar way LanaSimba (talk) 00:49, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Critique of the latest proposals and sources from LanaSimba
3) The sources above, all of which are PR blurbs and two of which are identical, verify his parents' names and the fact that he has younger brother named Giorgo. This one (currently in the article) verifies that his father owned an electrical appliance factory. This is pretty standard stuff for a biography and should be restored to the article.

4) The sentence "Later Psinakis has always appreciated social life and became friends with famous people in the arts, theatre, fashion design and show business in Greece and abroad." is empty, unencyclopedic, PR puffery sourced to PR blurbs and does not belong in the article.

5) "His television appearances received high ratings" Ratings by whom? Neither of the sources verify "high ratings", and the first one is a PR blurb on a "celebrity news" website. It's PR puffery and does not belong in the article.

6) The very clumsily written sentences ("In 2008 Psinakis, himself, tried as singer...) should be rephrased as This source is adequate and verifies that. It worth mentioning as part of his career as an entertainer.

7) – 13) are not an improvement on what is currently in the article. The assertions are simply PR name-dropping, overly detailed, and suited to the subject's website or press releases but not an encyclopedia article. I would strongly oppose their addition.

Voceditenore (talk) 16:11, 4 December 2016 (UTC)


 * , regarding #3: all three sources are unreliable. Two of them are blogs (and each mirrors the other).  The first one is an extremely biased non-legitimate "news" source.  Read the wording in it (a few examples are "he became better known as the ingenious manager of the biggest pop idol", "thereby gaining the public with clever and caustic humor.", "A very capable man with vision and great appetite for work", "We know you will not disappoint.").  Looks like a blog or opinion piece, to me.  Whatever the case, it's not a reliable source.  As a matter of fact, much of what's there is what was in the article when I started editing it.  Remember, the article was created by and heavily edited by LanaSimba.  Which brings us to the conclusions that she wrote the blog post or she stole content word-for-word from the blog post.  In either case, we're again seeing some very problematic behavior and/or ethics issues (now, maybe WP:COPYVIO) and back, as well, to the strong possibility of WP:COI.  -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">WV ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓  00:44, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Point #6: Looking at the source re: the song, it's also not a reliable source. The disclaimer at the bottom states, "The views and thoughts of Orpheus partners do not necessarily coincide with the opinion of the magazine....".  It's also biased according to this: "The acclaimed lyricist and the ingenious manager and presenter...".  Notice anything? "ingenious manager and presenter"?  "Presenter" was wording used by LanaSimba for the article early on, "ingenious manager" is a repeat of what's said in the unreliable sources I discussed in the post directly above this one.  Coincidence?  Doubt it.  Biased and unreliable?  Absolutely.  -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">WV ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓  00:53, 5 December 2016 (UTC)


 * I never wrote, created or rewrote any articles in Greek or English media on any subject. I have no blogs. I am not a journalist and not an author of any of the sources. I repeat for the 100th time- in this Wiki article I just translated and summarized the data provided online in sources which never were claimed by anyone. The term TV presenter is commonly-accepted. In the Wiki article I never used the term "ingenious", although it is really often mentioned in Greek articles. The tone of the Greek media with regards to personalities is their attitude and their lawful right and their opinion. If they copy contents of each other, probably they have relevant rights thereto. I am totally unaware of the mechanism. I am just a reader of the contents to which I referred. I am tired of allegations and personal accusations which have no ground. I AM OFFICIALLY REFERRING TO ADMINS OR RESPONSIBLE PERSONS HERE TO RELEASE ME FROM THIS KIND OF UNSUBSTANTIATED ACCUSATIONS. Here I became subject of strong pressure for unknown reason, which seems lays beyond the article contents that I just tried to maintain in accordance with sources. LanaSimba (talk) 02:32, 5 December 2016 (UTC)


 * I will accept your claim for now that you never used that wording. When are you going to answer what four of us have asked you regarding your connection to Psinakis? -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">WV ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓  03:17, 5 December 2016 (UTC)


 * "The tone of the Greek media with regards to personalities is their attitude and their lawful right and their opinion." The problem, however, is the tone. The tone is puffery and fan-like,  similar to the National Enquirer (an American gossip rag).  It's not what you see in reliable sources.  Which is precisely why these sources cannot be used.  -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">WV ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓  03:19, 5 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Winkelvi, re 3), I'm sorry but the names of his mother, father and brother and the fact that his father owned an appliance factory are not controversial or self-serving. It's perfectly mundane information. I believe you are being unnecessarily obstructive on this point. Leaving aside the two blogs, the GRReporter source (currently in the article) verifies that his father owned an electrical appliance factory. Why do you claim it is an unreliable source? It's used as a reference/source in multiple books by reputable publishers. In addition, both his parents' and his brother's names are in his biography on his official Facebook page . Per WP:BLPSELFPUB it is acceptable to use self-published sources for mundane information like his parents' names and occupation. Re 6), the song is a minor issue. The fact that he recorded it could go in the article, albeit without the claim of it having gone "gold" if you object to the e-orfeas.gr source. He's an entertainer. He recorded a song. There's no reason why that simple fact cannot go in the article. This article also verifies that the song was written for him and that he sang it at the 2007 Arion Music Awards. It's from Espresso, a daily newspaper in Athens, which is a perfectly valid source.  It's also covered in this article in Ethnos, another Greek daily newspaper and valid source. Voceditenore (talk) 08:29, 5 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Another point about the possible conflict of interest. Whether or not there actually is one, is less important than the goal of producing an article that doesn't read like it was written by someone with a conflict of interest. That's what we should concentrate on going forward. I suggest that both two main discussants here stop personalising this discussion and making various accusations about each other which accomplish nothing except to generate more ill-feeling and lessen the possibility for cooperation. Voceditenore (talk) 08:44, 5 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Calm down. Please.  There's nothing obstructionist when it comes to making sure a BLP is done right.  BLP articles are to be treated like glass.  If we don't have reliable sources for things like the names of individuals connected to the article subject, that content goes.  Again, look at what is written in the GRR Reporter.  It isn't journalistic news, it's an opinion piece.  Fluff.  Fan stuff.  We don't call opinion-pieces and fan-like content a reliable source.  There will need to be something reliable to support this content.  Without it, the content cannot stay in this BLP.  The article will not suffer without it but we can look for reliable sources to support it so the content can go back in.  I note that much of your time is spent with articles that are not BLPs.  Perhaps that is why you aren't clear on the importance of reliable sources in this type of article?  -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">WV ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓  13:59, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I am perfectly calm, and I have created and edited numerous articles in living persons. Your refusal to list his mother's name, his father's full name, and his father's occupation from the sources I've provided is not justified by BLP policy, even by your extreme interpretation of it. They are not self-serving or controversial claims likely to be challenged, and the tone of the article is irrelevant to the accuracy of his parents' names or occupation. However, further discussion with you is obviously going to be unproductive. I'll seek advice on the issue at Reliable sources/Noticeboard, and if necessary at Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. Voceditenore (talk) 15:45, 5 December 2016 (UTC)


 * I asked you to calm down because you seem upset and a tad bit aggressive over this. Not having the alleged names of his parents in the article will not make much of a difference to the reader's understanding of the article subject.  Having the alleged names of his parents in the article without a reliable source is a problem.  You can't just add people's names as being related to someone if it isn't verifiable from a reliable source.  I will be surprised if anyone at either noticeboard you mentioned above feels differently.  I would caution you about forum shopping, though. -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">WV ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓  17:07, 5 December 2016 (UTC)


 * , I really respect your critique and comments! Thank you for the consistency and due explanations. LanaSimba (talk) 18:01, 5 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Per this discussion at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard, I have changed his father's name from the nickname "Notis" to his full name "Panagiotis" and added his mother's name. The names are referenced to his biography on the official site of the city of which he is the mayor. I have also slightly copyedited the sentence in which they appear (removing unnecessary repetition of his date of birth). I have made no other changes. Voceditenore (talk) 09:15, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
 * You should not have done this without more opinions coming forth, especially since you are the involved editor who brought the question to the table. There is no WP:DEADLINE in Wikipedia.  This issue should have ended with a group effort and mutual agreement/change rather than you unilateral action.  Unless, of course your intent was to WP:WIN, then I can see why you jumped the gun. I guess your aggressive attitude and WP:BATTLEGROUND accusations at RSN plus your bull/china shop action proves your intent.  -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">WV ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓  13:34, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Both of the non-involved respondents there agreed that the source for his parents' names was reliable for that purpose. If that situation changes (which I very much doubt) we can revisit the issue. If you want yet more opinions and think you'll find someone who agrees with you, leave a note at the Biographies of living persons Noticeboard directing editors to the discussion at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard. Voceditenore (talk) 13:53, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
 * You've totally missed my point, . I don't give a shit about finding people who agree with me, I care that you bulldozed your way through what could have been a cooperative process and now appear to only have gone to a noticeboard to win. You then chose to push what you saw as your victory by waving your win in my face here.  It's how you dealt with this that I'm having a problem with.  You see, my interest is now, and always has been, the integrity of the article.  It's now clear that your interest, at some point, left the article and focused on you.  You put an editor (yourself) above the project, above cooperative and collegial editing.  Not cool, not productive.  -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">WV ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓  11:57, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

pet names, terms of endearment: Ψιψής, Miaow
disparagement: Nero* — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.84.208.54 (talk) 19:35, 21 August 2018 (UTC)