Talk:Ilinden–Preobrazhenie Uprising/Archive 2

Content copied from Ilinden uprising
This page was created with a very brief couple of sentences at 08:58, 2 May 2005, and then was dormant for a while. Then, at 23:56, 21 June 2005, the content was replaced with a copy and paste of text from "Ilinden uprising", and then the "Ilinden uprising" page was made a redirect to here. All subsequent activity has taken place at this page; but some of the history has been lost. When the move was made, notice should have been given here at the talk page. I am doing that now more than two years late, but placing it in the proper historical sequence on the talk page.

Here is the history, in detail.
 * 02:53, 28 April 2004 "Ilinden uprising" created.
 * 23:14, 5 June 2004 to 06:16, 29 April 2005 108 edits of change to "Ilinden uprising"
 * 08:58, 2 May 2005 very short new article created from scratch, called "Ilinden-Preobrazhenie Uprising". This is the origin of this page here.
 * 14:23, 4 May 2005 to 21:31, 27 May 2005 10 more edits to "Ilinden uprising"
 * 23:56, 21 June 2005 to "Ilinden-Preobrazhenie Uprising" initial content was replaced with the last "Ilinden uprising" revision.
 * 23:58, 21 June 2005 "Ilinden uprising" replaced with redirect to "Ilinden-Preobrazhenie Uprising"
 * 14:47, 2 August 2005 to 18:03, 29 August 2007 204 edits to "Ilinden-Preobrazhenie Uprising"

Had this name change been done with a move, rather than a copy and paste, we would have here more history and discussion from early days of the article. You can still find the old article history here. You can still find the old article talk page here.

This historical information was placed here on 00:14, 31 August 2007 (UTC), but the should be kept in historical sequence as 21 June 2005. There is a section below for discussing name changes, and further additional comment belongs there; not here. &mdash;Duae Quartunciae (talk · cont) 

Initial discussions made on creation of this talk page
Dear all

I am writting about the issue of Macedonia, Republic of Macedonia, Macedonian Slavs (like Wikipedia calls the Macedonians) and the problem between Macedonia and Greece about the term Macedonia. I am aware that this issue is largely discussed here, at Wikipedia, and Wikipedia claims that it is trying to take a neutral side. But, that is not the case. Wikipedia is everything except neutral in this question. In the following lines I will explain you why.

From the text in Wikipedia most of the people will conclude that Macedonian nation appeared during the World War 2 and Tito was the one who 'invented' us. The family of my wife (she is Mexican) read this and asked me is it truth. That was actually the first time I read what Wikipedia says about my nation, which was a direct reason for my reaction. My grandfather is born in 1911th. Yesterday I had a talk with him. He took a part in the strugle for independence since 1925th and he took a part in the 2nd world war. He is alive and personal prove that Wikipedia is full of bullshit and lies about our origin. He spent half of his life proving and fighting for that. He was shot 3 times, all 3 from the Bulgarians who wanted to ocupy Macedonia in the Balkan wars and in the WW1 and WW2. Just a 1 min with him will show you how many lies you suport in Wikipedia.

I tried to edit some of the text few days ago, but everithing I wrote was deleted. And all I wrote were facts. Fact 1. Macedonians (or Macedonian Slavs, like ONLY Wikipedia, Greece and Cyprus calls us) is the only nation of many living in the area concentrated inside the borders of the geographical region of Macedonia. This is a pure fact, something that you can even find on the CIA web page. Can you give any fact to deny my fact? If you can not, why you erased it from Wikipedia? Fact 2. Republic of Macedonia has diplomatic relations with about 150 countries in the world. Wikipedia says that "at least 20" countries recognize Macedonia under the name Macedonia. Guess what? That number is more than 100. And this is an officially confirmed by our ministery for foreighn affairs. Fact 3. Wikipedia says that my country Contraversialy calls itself Republic of Macedonia. This is a pure example of taking a side in the problem. Why you don't say that Greece contraversialy deny us the use of the name Macedonia? If you intended to be neutral, just write that we have the naming problem with Greece, but do not call my name "contraversial"!!! Fact 4. While explaining about the antient Macedonia, its kings etc. you highly support the claim for their Greek origin. I can give you 1000s of facts that that is not truth and I beleive that some Greek guy can give you 1000s facts that those claims are truth. That was 2400 years ago and there is no chanse for us to know the real situation. We can only guess. But, when you give the Greek suported version, why you ignore the version suported by the newaged Macedonians? In this moment I can give you 10 names of internationally respected scientist supporting our theory. If you are neutral, why you ignore it? Fact 5. Wikipedia says that the Turkish Empire were calling us Bulgarians. Strange, because the Turks were recognizing the uniqueness of our nation since the moment they occupied the teritory of Macedonia. Actually, the Turkish history archives are the biggest prove of our existance, history and culture. Did anyone of you ever read anything from those archives? Even on the birth certificate of Khemal Ataturk says that he is born in Bitola, Macedonia. And his autobiography is full of memories of his childhood spend with the Macedonians. Fact 6. Wikipedia ignores the egsodus of the Macedonian people from Greece and says they were running because they were supporters of the comunists. 1/3 of the Macedonians have origin from this part of Macedonia. They were runned away from there by force and you can find many historical proves for that. Again, big part of my family has origin from there. As a matter of fact, my grand-grand father was married to a Greek woman, my grand-grand mother. But, no matter of that, his house was burned and he was forced to run away for his life and the life of his family. How dare you deny this? Do you know that even today my grand father is not allowed to visit Greece, because he was a kid when his family runned away from there? Fact 7. There are about 500 000 Macedonians that live outside Macedonia, mostly in Canada, Australia, USA, Sweden etc. At least 1/3 moved there before 1930s. If we were a product of Tito, how can you explain that even they feel of Macedonian nationality? I have a family in USA which moved there in 1927th. Their ancestors (my cousins) do not even know how to talk Macedonian well. But, they still feel Macedonian. One of them is even one of the financiers of the party of the Macedonians in Bulgaria, trying to help their strugle to keep their national identity. I repeat, first time he visited Macedonia was in 1995th, far after Tito. And his family moved in USA in 1927th, far before Tito. Fact 8. Wikipedia claims that the book of Macedonian songs by Dimitar Miladinov is actually Bulgarian. Have you maybe seen a original copy of the book, printed in Croatia? IT says clearly "Macedonian". Not to mention that the same author wrote one of the most important books in the Macedonian history "For the Macedonian issues", again printed in Croatia, where it clearly talks about the Macedonian nation and non-Bulgarian origin.

All this was simply erased from the database. I didn't erase anything when editing these pages, I support the other side and I do not want to hide their facts. But why Wikipedia wants to hide our facts, which show that we are not a product of Tito's ambitions for the Aegean Sea. In Tito's time, the Yugoslav army was far superior in the region. If he wanted the Aegean Sea, he would get it very easily.

Many things in Wikipedia are very offensive for the nowdays Macedonians. Wikipedia simply ignores us, gives us a new name and supports the theories of denial of our existance, culture and history.

I will try to give you an example that includes with Mexico. I beleive that you know that the Maya civilisation was invaded by the Spanish kingdom. Spanish were ruling Mexico for centuries and millions of Spanish people moved at Mexican teritory. Later, after the liberation war, Mexicans formed its own country. Fact 1. Mayas were living in Mexico (same as Antique Macedonians). Fact 2. Spanish invaded them and great number of Spanish people moved to Mexico (The Slavs moved on the theritory of Macedonia and there was no reported fights or movements of people away from the teritory where the Slavs settled). Fact 3. Nowdays, everyone of the Mexican is aware that they are partly Spanish, but they still have Mayan origin (Wikipedia says that the people living in Republic of Macedonia are Slavs. When there was no reported resetling of the Antique Macedonians, how is possible they not to mix with the Slavs? It is a fact that the nowdays Macedonians are not same as the Antique Macedonians, but they certanly have a significant part of their genes. Same as I beleive that Greece has a part of their Genes, but they are definitly not their direct ancestors). Fact 4. Mexican speak Spanish. Reason: The Spanish culture was superior in that time. (The Antique Macedonians accepted the Helenic culture, including a variation of the Greek language. Reason: the Helenic culture was superior in that time. Everyone who knows at least little history will know that Hellenic and Greek are not synonims. Greek is nation, Hellenic is religion/culture. USA and England both speak English, both are mostly cristians, but they are SEPARATE nations. Aren't they? Same happens to Germany and Austria, or Serbia and Croatia, or Canada and France, or Brazil and Portugal, or the rest of Latin America and Spain)

And here is a comment about the claims of the Bulgarians, that the Macedonians are actually Bulgarians. If that is truth, I am going to kill myself. Bulgarians through the history made the worst for my nation. During the strugle of the Macedonian people for independence from the Turkish empire, at the end of the 19th and begginbing of the 20th century, the Bulgarians were the ones who killed the most of our revolutionaries, including 4 members of my close family which were members of the Macedonian revolutionary organization (VMRO). Whis is not something that I was told by Tito. My grandfather (the same grandfather from above) was in fact a member of the same organization. He personaly knew many of the revolutioners that Bulgarians claim are theirs, including 2 of the leaders: Goce Delcev and Gorce Petrov. They were Macedonians and they all gave their lives for free and independent Macedonia and they had nothing to do with Bulgaria. There was a part of them who were Bulgarians inserted in the organizations, who were actually the killers of the real Macedonian revolutioners, because it was in Bulgarian interest to weaken the organization, so they could take the lead in the organization and later put Macedonia in the hands of the Bulgarians. Thanks god, they did not succeed. Wikipedia claims that VMRO was pro-Bulgarian and the revolutioners were Bulgarian fighters. You suposed to see the face of my 94 year old grandfather when I told him your claims. Neurtal Wikipedia? I do not think so.

At the end I have to ask for Wikipedia NOT TO TAKE A SIDE IN THIS. I am not asking to remove the Greek and Bulgarian side of the story. But, why you ignore our claims, which are suported by many non-Greek and non-Bulgarian scientists and very largely through the web. There are just about 2-2.5 million Macedonians around the world. We do not have enought influence and strenght as Greece has, which is much more powerful and richer country than Macedonia. The Macedonian-Greek question is too hard and too complicated to solve. History can be interpreted in 1000 ways, especially on a teritory like the Balcany, where there are so many nations on so little space. Fortunately, DNA testings are getting more and more reliable and soon it will be possible to be used to acuratelly show the origin of our nations. I hope that then the denyal of me, my history, culture and existance will finaly stop. It is very disapointing that Wikipedia takes a part in all that.

With all the respect, Igor Šterbinski Skopje, Macedonia is@on.net.mk

ALL the Macedonian history (the one that the Macedonians, the one that Wikipedia calls Macedonian Slavs) before the 6th century is given in Wikipedia as Greek history. I am talking mostly about the Antient Macedonia. I do not claim that Macedonians (Macedonian Slavs in Wikipedia) have the exclusive right to this history. But, Greece can not have that right eighter. It is a history that this region shares and both, we (Macedonians) and Greeks have a part of our origin from those people. In the same time ALL the Macedonian history after the 6th century is given in Wikipedia as Bulgarian history. I am talking about the Wikipedia claims that in the 9th century the Macedonian Slavs got Bulgarized or assimilated by Greece, that in the 10th century Macedonia become a center of Bulgaria (which is not truth, because there are 1000s of hard proves and writtings found in Ohrid denying the Bulgarian claims), the tzar Samoil kingdom (which was everything than Bulgarian, because he had several fights with them and won in all and you can find again 1000s of proves in his fortress in Ohrod), then the Macedonian Ohrid Archbishopry which was clearly Macedonian and everything else than Bulgarian, with dressings and crowns with a completely different stile than the Bulgarian ones. Later Wikipedia claims that after 1018th Byzantine Empire makes Macedonia a Bulgarian province, but it doesn't say the reason for it (the Bulgarians were fighting at his side, so this was his reward towards them, something that will happen in the WW2, when the biggest part of Macedonia will be given to Bulgaria by the Germans. 3 of 4 sons of Samoil were actually latter killed by pro-Bulgarians Another reason is the wish of Vasili II to make a revenge towars Samoil and his people, with denying them, something that Wikipedia does NOW). Then, Wikipedia claims that the Ottoman Empire was seeing us as Bulgarians, which is completely not truth. You have incredible written archives in Turkish museums for this, so you can make a search by your own. All the Macedonian uprisings were characterised as Macedonians. Even the after-capture execution of the leaders was taking place in Skopje, the biggest town in the teritory of Macedonia and not in Sofija, which was the Bulgarian biggest town. Wikipedia says that the following Macedonian history is Bulgarian: IMRO, Ilinden Uprising in Krusevo (where the only newspapers that write about it as Bulgarian uprising are the ones who didn't have their Journalists in the region and were using the Bulgarian sources, which in that time was already liberated, who wanted to show the uprising as their own. Why you don't read some Russian sources which have their journalists in Krusevo and Bitola at the time? Some of the grand sons and grand daughters of the revolutioners are still alive, so you might ask them what their grand-fathers were fighting for. The Krusevo Manifesto says that their goal is FREE and INDEPENDENT Macedonia. Why would their form their own Republic, if they wanted to be part of Bulgaria? All Wikipedia claims simply have no sence), Goce Delchev and the other revolutioners (NOTE: Goce Delchevs nephews which are still alive all spent half of their life proving Goce Delchev's belongding to the Macedonian nation. NOTE 2: Why would he fight for Macedonia's independence if he was Bulgarian? If he was Bulgarian, wouldn't he fight for unification of Macedonia and Bulgaria? Why was he betrayed by a Bulgarian, which resultet in his death in Banica 1903rd? You are corupting our biggest revolutioner, something that we keep as a saint). Wikipedia says that the "St Cyril and Methodius" high school in Solun, where Delchev studied was Bulgarian. How come, when no Bulgarians were living in Solun?... A prove for the Bulgarian, Serb and Greek ambitions to assimilate the Macedonians and take their teritory is the deals and fights they had in the both Balcan wars. They were all exterminating the Macedonians, burning their houses and grabbing their lands, but Wikipedia completely ignores all that. I (and many more) have a living family members who were witnesses of that time. Then, the WW2, when 2/3 of Macedonia was given to Bulgaria by the Germans. Why the hell 100000 Macedonians were fighting against the Bugarians? 25000 died in that war, again many members of my family. And Wikipedia says that we have Bulgarian origin. Why they didn't fight at the Bulgarian side if that was the case? Wikipedia later claims that our country (Republic of Macedonia) was given to us by Tito. What a lie!!! As I said 100000 Macedonians were fighting for freedom. If Tito made us be under the Serbs again, that wouldn't be freedom and 100000 heavily armed Macedonians would continue fighting for it. Even my 94 year old grand-father, who took a part in the WW2 fighting for the partizans, and who was looking at Tito as a saint agrees with this, that he wouldn't rest till he saw Macedonia free. Wikipedia even denies the exodus of 250 000 Macedonians from Greece, saying they were running away by their own. Who the hell will leave his house and land if he was not forced to? My other grand father's house was burned and he was shoot at in order to make him leave his hometown.

On some places Wikipedia says that this 'Bulgarian part' of the history might be Macedonian, but that is very well hidden so it even can hardly be noticed.

On the other hand, Wikipedia says that 'In 2000 several teenagers threw smoke bombs at the conference of pro-Bulgarian organisation 'Radko' in Skopje causing panic and confusion among the delegates'. Yes, that is completely truth. But in 1000s of years, you find one incident that we caused against the Bulgarians and you wrote it. What about centuries of incidents, murders, wars, assimilation made by the Bulgarians towards the Macedonians? What about the fact that Bulgaria and Greece do not allow the Macedonian parties in those countries to register and take a part in the ellections? This is something that was taken even to the European court. HOW CAN WIKIPEDIA IGNORE THIS??? BTW, Radko had just about 50 delegates and members. Most of them born in Bulgaria and moved latter in their life in Macedonia.

In this case, Wikipedia is only a tool in the Bulgarian and Greek propaganda of denying and stealing the Macedonian history, culture and existance. Just search the internet and you will see that this kind of 'history' can ONLY be found on pro-Bulgarian and pro-Greek web sites. I am a living prove of the existance of the Macedonian nation. And that is not because I was told so by Tito. Macedonians were Macedonians far far before Tito. That is a fact that NOONE can change. How dare you deny everything what I am? How dare you to deny 1000s of killed people, who gave their lives for FREE and INDEPENDENT Macedonia?

Senceirly, Igor Šterbinski Skopje, Macedonia

JUST SEARCH THE WEB, YOU CAN SEE HOW WRONG WIKIPEDIA IS!!! ONLY THE PRO-BULGARIAN AND PRO-GREEK SITES HAVE THE SAME CLAIMS AS WIKIPEDIA. MOST OF THEM ARE ONLY CLAIMS THAT ARE CONFIRMED BY FALSIFICATED LETTERS. The TURKISH WERE SUPERIOR AT THAT TIME AND ARE A NEUTRAL SIDE. AND FAR BIGGER PART OF THEM IDENTIFY THE MACEDONIANS AS SEPARATE NATION, MACEDONIANS. WIKIPEDIA IS NEUTRAL??? I DO NOT THINK SO!!!

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.162.194.238 (talk • contribs) 00:22, 4 August 2005

This article makes no sense?? So, IMRO is Bulgarian, its leaders are Bulgarian, but they are fighting for an independent Macedonia?? What happens when they establish that independent Macedonia? What does the Krushevo Manifesto say? Here read it -

"Fellow countrymen and dear neighbours ! We, your perennial neighbours, friends and acquaintances from beautiful Krushevo and its pretty villages, regardless of faith, nationality, sex or conviction, not being able to endure any more the tyranny of bloodthirsty murtats who hunger for human flesh, who would like to lead both you and us to slaughter, to reduce both you and us to poverty, and to turn our dear and wealthy land of Macedonia into a wasteland, we have today raised our heads and decided to defend ourselves with rifles in our hands from our and your enemies, and obtain freedom. You know very well that we are not evil and you understand that it is trouble that made us risk our lives, so that we might begin living like human beings or die like heroes! And because since the times of our grandfathers and great-grandfathers we have lived together like brothers of this land, we consider you as our own, and would like it to remain the same forever. We have not raised our rifles against you - it would be shameful for us to do so; we have not raised against the peaceful diligent and honest Turkish people who, like ourselves, earn their living through sweat full of blood - they are our brothers with whom we have always lived and would like to live again; we have not risen to slaughter and plunder, to set fire and steal - we have had enough of countless derebeyis pillaging and plundering our poor and blood-stained Macedonia; we have not risen to convert to Christianity and disgrace your mothers and sisters, wives and daughters; you should know that your property, your lives, your faith and your honour are as dear to us as our own. Alas, we have taken up arms only to protect our property, our lives, our faith and our honour. We are not murtats of our own land that has given birth to us, we are not robbers and plunderers, but revolutionaries sworn to die for justice and freedom; we rebel against tyranny and against slavery; we are fighting and will fight against murtats, against robbers, against oppressors and plunderers, against besmirchers of our honour and our faith and against those who benefit from our sweat and exploit our labour. Do not be afraid of us and of our villages - we shall not harm anyone. Not only do we consider you as our brothers, but we also feel sorry for you as our brothers, since we understand that you are slaves like ourselves, slaves of the Sultan and of his beys, effendis and pashas, slaves of the rich and powerful, slaves of tyrants and oppressors, who have set fire to the empire from all four sides and have made us rise up for justice, for freedom and for human life. We invite you, too, to join us in our struggle for justice, freedom and human life! Come, Moslem brothers, let us together go against your and our enemies! Come under the banner of "Autonomous Macedonia"! Macedonia is the mother of us all and she calls on us for help. Let us break the chains of slavery, free ourselves from suffering and pain, and dry the rivers of blood and tears! Join us, brothers, let us fuse our souls and hearts and save ourselves, so that we and our children and our children's children might live in peace, work calmly and make progress!... Dear neighbours! We understand that you as Turks, Arnauts and Moslems might think that the empire is yours and that you are not slaves since there is no cross on the imperial flag but a star and a crescent. You will soon see and understand that this is not so and that you are wrong. Nevertheless, if you honour does not allow you to join us and declare yourselves against the Sultan's tyranny, we, your brothers in suffering and of the same homeland, shall do you no harm and shall not hate you. We will fight alone both for you and us, and if necessary, we will fight to the last man under the banner for our and your freedom, for our and your justice. "Freedom or Death" is written on our foreheads and on our blood-stained banner. We have already raised that banner and there is no way back. If you consider us as your brothers, too, if you wish us well, if you intend to live with us again as you have lived up to now, and if you are faithful and worthy sons of our mother Macedonia, you could help us in one way at least - and it would be a great help indeed - do not make partners of the enemy, do not raise guns against us and do not oppress the Christian villages! May God bless our holy struggle for justice and freedom! Long live the fighters for freedom and all honest and good Macedonian sons! Hurrah! For 'Autonomous Macedonia!'" - http://www.culture.in.mk/story.asp?id=7622 -

And, where do these freaks get "Ilinden-Preobrazhenie Uprising?" This article needs to be significantly edited, which I will gladly do, or needs to be deleted. Macedonian876 —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 17:30, 3 February 2006

Interesting? Andropolus —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 14:08, 28 February 2006

Last round of changes by LionKing
LionKing, you can't just claim "better this way" and start edit warring. The Ilinden uprising was in Macedonia. Furthermore it happened in a time for wich very few historians dispute the existance of a separate Macedonian ethnicity. So it's only logical that the macedonian language should come first. Now if you ask me - there is not even a need for a bulgarian translation, but as a gesture of good will and an attempt for a compromise I don't object to it. Just please stop editing while giving reasons like this. --Realek 20:33, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Few historians may dispute now, however at the time of the uprising the population was generally considered bulgarian. Read the newspaper from the times, as well the statute of BMARC/IMARO. FunkyFly 20:50, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Yet again FunkyFly you try to impose a nationality to my people. You should understand already that it's not possible. Please stop! It's Irational and insulting. Anyway, the reason why SOME historic references were made for the Macedonian people as Bulgarians were explained in the Macedonians article so many times. I'm pretty sure you know them, but if you don't read again - more carefully. Regards --Realek 22:06, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

For goodness sake people - read the English newspapers, look at the flag!! Do you really claim that the whole world is confused about the nationality of the Ilinden rebels and it is just you guys and FYROM that have it right? It is also worth mentioning that Bulgaria sought to intervene in the uprising but received ultimatums from Greece, Serbia, and Romania, who warned that they would side with the Ottoman Empire. As for the utter nonsense written below - at least check the facts - your grandfather cannot be born seven years after Delchev was killed, and known him... without magic or something. By the way is it strange to you guys that it is "Delchev" and not "Delchevski", "Gruev" instead of "Gruevski", "Tatarchev" instead of... you know what it doesn't even matter. Even if Goce rose from the grave and repeated that he was a Bulgarian and fough for Bulgarian unity, you would shout him down. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.88.212.43 (talk • contribs) 17:01, 1 May 2006

Realek
Can you please leave the order of names alone. The article is at Ilinden-Preobrazhenie Uprising, not Ilinden Uprising, so it's obvious which name should go first. Not to mention that the "The Times" newspaper article uses the word Bulgarian, not Macedonian. This also helps set priorities. Telex 20:48, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Very interesting how you find theese pretty irelevant things to have such a weight, but when it comes to rock solid facts that go against the propaganda you are spreading - you just ignore it. Double standards have no place in wikipedia. The uprising was in Macedonia NOT Bulgaria and the wast majority of the rebels were Macedonians. So how can it be a Bulgarian uprising, except in the heads of the negators of the Macedonian people? I assure you we Macedonians exist. I'm one of them and I'm real. Also let me be clear that I'm no Bulgarian or Greek. Deal with it already. --Realek 20:59, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I can tell you haven't even glanced at the statute of BMARC/IMARO (and guess in which language they were). Of course Macedonians exist today (you're proof of it), but there were no Macedonians then as was there no Macedonian language (or there is no evidence of there being any Macedonians or a Macedonian language then). Telex 21:02, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Right, I forgot that I was invented in 1945 (overnight) by Tito. --Realek 21:15, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


 * If you say so. Telex 21:22, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


 * You are real. It's the history you were taught that is falsified. I understand your frustration, but it is a matter of NPOV here, not a matter of supporting possible psychological problems that some people may have, if they find out (or if they refuse to accept) that everything they have been taught is biased. N i k o S il v e r   (T) @ (C) 21:05, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


 * On the contrary. The history you were thought is falsified and not only that but irational and ridiculous. On top of that greek editors add even more irational things that you try to incorporate in wikipedia. So the "possible psychological problems" you are talking about concern you, not me. --Realek 21:15, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Phases of grief: 1. Denial 2. Anger 3. Bargaining 4. Depression 5. Acceptance. Long way to go. FunkyFly 16:29, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Anyway, what difference does the order of names make - put them in alphabetical order, that's how lists are compiled, not of POV criteria. Telex 21:06, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


 * You're so transparent when suggesting the alphabetical order. Because if M was before B you would have been against it. But if you are so keen on ignoring the relevance order then go change some Macedonian-non related articles in that way and only then come back trolling Macedonian articles. At least then you would have an excuse for applying it here. --Realek 21:15, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Yawn... N i k o S il v e r   (T) @ (C) 21:17, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure why you yawn... Maybe it's a lack of oxigen or maybe you're tired and sleepy. Either way it explains the irational things you are writing. --Realek 21:20, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


 * WP:AGF, Realek. Telex 21:22, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Banner
Does that "banner of the Krushevo Republic" have a source. See this. The banner on the article now looks like makeup to me. --Telex 21:34, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

To whoever it might concern
1. The flag IS properly licenced, it is more than 100 years old and on public domain. 2. BMARC did indeed prepare the Uprising, which has been long in the making well before 1902.  /FunkyFly.talk_  05:33, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

100% lie. This is a pure contradiction to the VMRO article in which it is said that Goce Delchev opposed the uprising as premature: ''In 1903 the undisputed leader of the organization, Goce Delchev, was killed in a skirmish with Turkish forces. Although Delchev had opposed the ideas for an uprising as premature, he finally had no choice but agree to that course of action but at least managed to delay its start from may to August. After his death in 1903 IMRO organised the Ilinden Uprising against the Ottomans in Macedonia and the Adrianople Vilayet, which after the initial successes including the forming of the Krushevo Republic, was crushed with much loss of life.''

The organization decided to start the Ilinden uprising at their Solun (Thessaloniki) Congress and at the Smilevo congress in 1903. Your claims are completely wrong. The Organisation at that moment was called Tajna Makedonsko-Odrinska Revolucionerna Organizacija (about the different names in different periods it is explained in the VMRO article) or SMARO.

you know these facts very well, you just avoid them because you have certain political agendas to spread around. And for Mr. Bozhinov who is saying something like "Macedonians are changing everything over and over without any explanation", he should actually read the article's history and see that Im properly explaining everything 100 times in CAPITAL LETTERS.

That flag of yours IS NOT PROPERLY LICENCED and IM SICK OF DOUBLE STANDARDS: NAME THE SOURCE WHERE U GOT IT, TELL US THE COPYRIGHT STATUS, THEN, DONT FORGET IT IS A FLAG- FOR FLAGS THERE ARE CERTAIN SPECIFIC TAGS AND SEPARATE RULES, thats why i used fairuse for my pic. For my pics I always provide good detailed explanations, sources, links, fair use rationale etc. ALSO THE PIC THAT I'VE PLACED IS NOT RELATED TO PREOBRAZHENIE UPRISING, YUOU WILL NOT GET AWAY WITH THIS! THE FLAG CLEARLY SAYS 20 JULY + THERE'S A MAP OF MACEDONIA ONLY! THE FLAG IS 100% MACEDONIAN AND IT IS NOT RELATED TO THE PREOBRAZHENIE UPRISING THAT TOOK PLACE IN A DIFFERENMT REGION- THRACE 10 DAYS AFTER THE KRUSHEVO REPUBLUIC WAS AlREADY DESTROYED. YOU ARE INVENTING A NEW HISTORY??

RULES FOR EVERYONE OR FOR NO ONE! Because of people like you, Wikipedia is becoming a huge joke, the rules are being constantly ridiculed, more and more people find wikipedia unreliable, what the hell is this?? Couple of persons are writting the history of one whole nation and no one stops them?? --Vbb-sk-mk 16:38, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Macedonians being assimilated once again by Wikipedia
Wikipedia has become nothing but a joke by using the so-called recollections of Macedonian history from the perspective of bitter bulgarians and greeks who to this day have not gotten over the existence of our Macedonian national identity and Macedonian heritage.

Get over yourselves. Macedonia is an acient country which has been carved down to it's present day borders by forces who outnumber our population motivated by territorial expansion illusions (delusions).

Goce Deltchev was and always will be Macedonian. Why would he be fighting on behalf of bulgaria if bulgaria was already granted indepedendence following the San Stefano Treaty? Did anyone bother to figure that one out?

Goce fought for Macedonian independence. It is a shame that wikipedia has chosen to take sides when it is supposed to represent a neutral forum of facts, that's right FACTS not fiction. For this reason, wikipedia has become the joke it is.

It's just another tool of greek and bulgarian propaganda.

Shame on you.

209.247.5.15 02:40, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Bulldoger
Please refer to the external sources in the article, the ethnic groups are listed as they appear in the sources. Do not remove sourced information. Mr. Neutron 16:21, 23 July 2007 (UTC)