Talk:Illinois Fighting Illini

Marching Illini
What about the Marching Illini, they have a very close relationship to athletics 68.78.121.92 07:00, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Added as a 'See also' entry. -- Upholder 19:25, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

NCAA Final Four
Someone (they don't have a username) keeps deleting the "Final Fours" from the Men's Basketball championships section, citing that Final Fours are not in fact championships and should not be listed. They are, however, noteworthy accomplishments for which every school receives a banner to hang in their arena rafters, and are routinely listed as major accomplishments in most sports and media guides. Furthermore, most people are quite aware that Final Fours are not in fact championships (even though I own a t-shirt that says "Illinois: 2005 Chicago Regional Champions), so I feel any ambiguity in this area is well understood by a reader. I don't feel like changing the "Championships" heading to "Championships and Other Noteworthy Accomplishments" just for this one line, so I feel that status quo should be maintained, with the Final Fours listed under "championships." Chiwara 22:39, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

RESPONSE I keep changin it because the heading says "championships." As such, the FFs should either be removed or the heading changed...I mean, finishing above .500 on the road in the Big Ten is a noteworthy accomplishment, but it does not make it a championship...this list includes only conference championships, national championship and basketball final fours- one of these things is not like the other...if you think it should stay in, then add all final fours from all other sports and change the heading...moreover there is a seperate section IN THIS SAME ARTICLE regarding the 04-05 team —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.114.16.210 (talk • contribs) 09:12, April 11, 2007


 * Fine. Chiwara 02:00, 21 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Someone has changed the Final Four section again. Please, if you are going to undo previous edits in relation to the Final Fours or name of the section, please discuss it on the Talk Page first. Chiwara 17:20, 29 April 2007 (UTC)


 * what about your agreement above? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.114.16.210 (talk) 14:07, 30 April 2007 (UTC).


 * I moved the heading from "Championships" to "Athletic Accomplishments" in order to include other noteworthy Illini moments such as NCAA Final Fours and Bowl Game wins. You can't change the section back and then take out things like Final Fours just because you feel they should not be included. As the main Illini athletics article, this is to be a record for major accomplishments of the Illinois athletics program, and I intend to list them. Chiwara 18:07, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


 * a section with every atletic accomplishment for everyteam would be unmanagable...this would and should be a seperate section and/or inclueded in seperate article about each team/sport —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.114.16.210 (talk) 18:49, 30 April 2007 (UTC).


 * We are not listing every thing, only major accomplishments. Until you provide a CREDIBLE SOURCE as to why the heading of "Athletic Accomplishments" and the information currently contained therein is somehow unsuitable for a Wikipedia article, your edits are completely baseless. Since I know such a source cannot and will never be found, please stop changing the heading for this section. Thanks.Chiwara 18:53, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Student Support of the Chief?
the article claims that it is "a well-established fact" that a "large majority" of the students are "Pro-Chief"; surely for such a "well-established fact" a cite can be found? SmaleDuffin 21:47, 26 March 2007 (UTC)


 * This is a really tough thing to prove. A 2004 referendum on the Chief had 2/3 of the students support his presence, but that is the only thorough study that's been done. Also dosesn't account for varying levels of support, or how students views may have changed in the past 3 years. I'd take it out - definitely not well-established.Chiwara 03:18, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The referendum had 69 percent of the 13,000 voters supporting the Chief, and 31 percent opposing. But, only 13,000 out of 37,000 voted.  Hence 24 percent of the students support, 11 percent don't, 65 percent didn't vote.  When I was at UIUC, the student government was largely dominated by the Greek system, which was largely pro-Greek.  I would not think that the voters in this referendum constituted a random sample of the students.  We cannot accurately ascribe any position to the 24,000 who did not vote.  I know when I was there, many of the people I knew just wished both sides would go away; taking it out seems like the right move to me.  SmaleDuffin 21:10, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Championship language disputes
I have again reverted the "Co-Champion" language attached to the Football listing to the language used on the NCAA site referenced. I have also again removed the "Helms Athletic Foundation" language from the Basketball entry as it is not present in the Illinois Media guide and is adequately covered in the attached reference. -- Upholder 19:39, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

There simply was no Basketball Championship awarded in 1915. The Helms foundation (which is unrelated to the NCAA) looked back years later and decided that Illinois may have been the best team that year. This is no more of a championship that a panel of experts on ESPN saying that they thought the 04-05 basketball team was the best in the county. I think that if you want to note the Helms Foundation's recogonition it should be properly noted in the text--- especially since their decisions have been widely disputed. - 207.114.16.210


 * You've made the assertion that the Helms Foundation has been widely disputed. Please provide supporting evidence from a reliable source. -- Upholder 14:32, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

For instance in 1954 the Helms foundation named Kentucky the National Champion. Most (including the NCCA) consider La Salle the 1954 national chamption. Indeed, even Kentucky's athletic department disregards the helms foundation conclusion and does not list 1954 as a "national championship". Brief reasearch reveals similar disputed findings in 1939, 1940 and 1944 (and I am sure there are many more). I know that Illini Fans want desperately to win a national champtionship, but lets not go lower than even Kentucky in trying to get one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.114.16.210 (talk • contribs) 07:24, April 19, 2007


 * Please provide citations to back your claim. The Illinois Sports Information Department doesn't qualify the 1915 National Championship in any way in the Basketball Media guide, it is listed simply as "National Champions".  See page 4 of the Illinois Media Guide PDF in the upper right hand corner. -- Upholder 15:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

You can look up a list of helms foundation "national Champions" and compare to a list of NCAA Champions just as easy as I can-- the fact taht the Illinois media guide lists it as a Championship is embarassing and seems desperate, espectially when other programs simply disregard the results of the Helms Foundation and try and win real titles. For example, you will never see Kentucky claim to the 1954 Champ or USC claim the 1940 championship EVEN THOUGH THE HELMS FOUNDATION NAMED THEM CHAMPION IN THOSE YEARS. With regard to Wikipedia...those schools that do bother to list helms championships, list it as such (see e.g. purdue or kansas) - 207.114.16.210


 * Since you haven't provided citations (per WP:RS) I have again removed the language. -- Upholder 15:18, 20 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't really see what the Wikipedia articles of other schools have to do with this. If anything, our source should be the official Illinois Media Guide (see above) and it echoes the list we have on this article. I agree with Upholder on this, if you can't find a more credible citation than the IMG to go against it, the list stays as is.Chiwara 02:04, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

User Talk:207.114.16.210, you have not provided any support for your argument, please do so or desist from changing the language on the page. I once again refer you to WP:Reliable Sources. -- Upholder 14:29, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

you can use any source you want to looks up the helms foundation champions (e.g., http://www.answers.com/topic/helms-athletic-foundation) and compare to the NCAA national champions and you will see some years they are DIFFERENT (such as the years I cited above). This would suggest that the the Helms Foundation National Champion (as I would call is different) from what is generally accepted as the "National Champion" (i.e. the NCAA Champion)...the other schools wikipedia articles have to do with consistency throughout wikipedia.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.114.16.210 (talk • contribs) 11:43, April 24, 2007


 * Simply asserting something is not enough. You must provide citations.  If you are unable or unwilling to abide by Wikipedia policy, you are in danger of being blocked from editing.  I will not continue this edit war, but instead ask for consenus to be reached. The language that has been used in the article matches the language used int he Illinois Media Guide as published by the Illinois Sports Information Department and as such is what I view as most appropriate for the article.  I ask that all editors weigh in on one side of the discussion or the other.  -- Upholder 17:21, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Again, I re-iterate my agreement with Upholder on this. The Helms Foundation is usually regarded as the definitive National Championship guide prior to the NCAA Tournament in 1939. No other established organization has ever claimed to name basketball champions prior to the NCAA, and for that reason the Illinois Media Guide lists them. Chiwara 01:15, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * here is a "source," the NCAA... http://www.ncaa.org/champadmin/champs_listing1.html ...the NCAA considers the fighting illini to have only 17 National Championships (not including football) and NO basketball champtionships...simply select Illinios from the drop-down box... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.114.16.210 (talk) 14:05, 25 April 2007 (UTC).


 * That's not a source about the Helms Foundation being disuputed, just that the NCAA did not name a national champion in that era. Your citations must back your claim, which you have repeatedly said is that "The Helms Foundation championships are widely disputed." -- Upholder 16:52, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * and I cited four examples where their conclusions were disputed by the NCAA. Bottom line, when people say National Championship, they are talking about NCAA national championships.  Illinois has not won one of these.  see my NCAA link above unsigned comment was added by 207.114.16.210 (talk) 18:44, 25 April 2007 (UTC).


 * Your source says nothing about the Helms Foundation at all -- for or against. It is not evidence that it is "widely disputed".  As you still have not provided any evidence and what little consensus we have is for removing the language, I have again done so. -- Upholder 23:26, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * nope, that source seems to stand for the proposition that illinois has never won a championship in basketball —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.66.51.129 (talk) 01:53, 26 April 2007 (UTC).


 * Why don't we do this using inductive logic. Everyone here agrees that in 1915, many schools in the country played college basketball, including all members of the Big Ten Conference at the time. The NCAA awarded no championship that year, since it did then not govern basketball championships (just like it doesn't do D-IA football now.) So, IF there was a National Champion in 1915, then WHO was it? The Helms Foundation asked that very question after the fact, and noting that Illinois that year went undefeated, the only team in the country to do so, they determined that they are unequivocally the 1915 National Champions. They very soundly argued that if you are the only school to go undefeated in a certain year, the you must be the national champions (except if you are the Boise State football team). The NCAA can never make such a claim, since its sole and expressed purpose is to award championships during its own tenure. So, as others have said before, until someone provides a credible source that declares the Helms Foundation as invalid, the footnote on the page should be plenty to alert readers that it is not, and never will be an "NCAA Championship." Chiwara 23:26, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * What they won was the "Helms Foundation National Championship" so that it what it should say--- Retroactive titles are perfectly good fodder for conversation over a beer, but any program that claims them as legitimate titles should be ashamed of itself. If tomorrow some organization -- the Elias Sports Bureau, for example -- decided to name world champions in major league baseball for the years that preceded the World Series, would you have respect for any team that tried to claim those championships as legitimate ones? I wouldn't, but then I wouldn't have to: No major league team would ever do that.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.114.16.210 (talk) 12:54, 27 April 2007 (UTC).

As further evidence that the public perception mimics the current article, I just saw an "Illinois 1915 National Champions" poster for sale on eBay. Chiwara 02:56, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Also regarding your argument above that illinois was the only undefeated team in 1915, that simply is not the case...for example, Texas was 14-0 and the SWC champ in 1915 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.114.16.210 (talk • contribs) 12:56, April 27, 2007

I WOULD ALSO NOTE THAT SIMILAR DISPUTES ON THE KANSAS AND PURDUE ARTICLES HAVE RESULTED IN AGREEMENT THAT THE QUALIFICATION SHOULD APPEAR IN THE BODY OF THE ARTICLE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.114.16.210 (talk • contribs) 14:02, April 27, 2007


 * Actually, neither the Kansas nor Purdue page actually debated the issue, it was just decided. Of the three, this page is the only one with a debate. I really don't see what is so wrong with the footnote, placed very obviously next to the 1915 date. But if you are going to kick and scream (and never sign your posts) then I will change the article so we can end this silly dispute. Chiwara 19:19, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Im sorry that we had to go back and forth like that, but I just don't think that people who come to wikipedia should be misled into thinking that Illinois has won a national championship, when, in reality it is a second tier program that probably never will. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.114.16.210 (talk) 19:40, 27 April 2007 (UTC).


 * Thank you for your input on the 2005 NCAA Runner-Up, but if your edits are motivated by your biased opinion towards the Illinois Men's Basketball team, this leaves them less than credible. Chiwara 00:18, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Third opinion
Looks like this is largely solved, but just for reference: Wikipedia content must be verifiable to reliable sources, and must specifically not be based on an editor's own knowledge or original synthesis. If the anonymous editor can find a reliable source to back up the claims, the content is suitable for the article. Else, it is not. It doesn't come down to anything but that. Seraphimblade Talk to me 05:39, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Fourth Opinion
I don't know a thing about Illinois basketball, so am about as unbiased as can be (don't even know what conference they're in). It really doesn't seem to matter either way, so the decision should go with the consensus, which seems to be that no "none" qualification is needed. Wrad 21:39, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Non-NCAA Sports?
I know that two of the Illini's lost Title IX sports (Hockey and Men's Soccer) that are now club teams have had some success is recent years (both won national championships in 2005). Should these be included in the article as well, or should we stick to NCAA sports? Chiwara 04:21, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * If they are included (and I'm not certain they should be), a separate section for them as club sports would be needed. It might be better to put them into a separate article and link that from a "see also" section. -- Upholder 04:29, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 08:13, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Illinilogo.png
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BetacommandBot (talk) 22:56, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation of "Illini"?
Can someone add a note about the pronunciation of "Illini"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.62.195.143 (talk) 05:04, 24 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Done 16:29 07 November 2014 (UTC) Cubbie15fan (talk)

Indoor Track
What is the source of the claim that Illinois won 5 indoor track championships? The ICAAAA indoor meet appears to be the only one that can be described as national in scope. Illinois didn't win it. Where is this list from? Jeff in CA (talk) 15:19, 5 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Several other possibilities for claiming national titles in the pre-1965 era (NCAA championship began then):
 * A college team that won the AAU National Indoor Track and Field championship has a legitimate claim to the national championship. The AAU national championship was a very important meet that was open to any person or team. Did Illinois win any of these?
 * The Illinois Athletic Club (or IAC, which is not the University of Illinois) won the AAU National title several times in the same era. Were these five years occasions that the IAC won the AAU National Indoor championship?
 * These may have been years that Illinois won Big Ten titles. Would these count as national titles?


 * The answer to all three of these questions is "No."
 * The book, A History of Indoor Track and Field, by Wally Donovan, provides some answers:
 * The book, A History of Indoor Track and Field, by Wally Donovan, provides some answers:


 * page 108: "Remarkably, [the N.Y.U. Violets] were the first college squad to win the National A.A.U. championships (indoors or out) since the war year of 1918. That was indoors in 1943. In 1947 they duplicated this feat."
 * The IAC won the national AAU title in 1926, but not in the other years shown for Illini championships in this Wikipedia article.
 * page 183: "Champaign-Urbana, Illinois, is the home of the University of Illinois. The Fighting Illini have a very large fieldhouse which seats 17,000.  ...  Their track tradition goes deep and they have had many finer track teams and coaches.  Their first coach was Harvey Cornish (1895) but one of their most famous track and field coaches was Harry L. Gill (he manufactured track and field equipment).  He coached from 1904 to 1929 and his teams won twenty Big Ten championships, nine indoors.  Illinois won the first NCAA [outdoor] meet held in 1921 under his tutelage.  They won again in 1927.  Leo Johnson coached Illinois from 1938 to 1965 and his teams won 17 Big Ten titles, seven of them indoors."  Also, Illinois did not win Big Ten titles in all of the five years that are listed in this Wikipedia article.


 * I fail to see the evidence that supports listing Illinois as national indoor track and field champions in the years shown in this Wikipedia article. I propose deletion of this line in the article. Jeff in CA (talk) 14:29, 13 March 2015 (UTC)


 * There having been no reponse to the above, I am removing the statement that Illinois won national chamionships in indoor track in the years 1921, 1926, 1943, 1945 and 1946. Jeff in CA (talk) 00:56, 20 March 2015 (UTC)