Talk:Illyria (Angel)

Name Spelling
The Fox DVDs for Angel season 5 spell the name "Ilyria" (one "l") - I would have thought that would be definitive, but I'm reluctant to go ahead and change this article as it consistently uses two "l"s. Is there an official source for spelling it with two "l"s? - Strobie 00:47, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Are the DVDs consistant in their spelling? Or is it a one-off? - Majin Gojira


 * Google sure seems to agree with the double L spelling. Here's a nifty thing I came across: Illyria action figure Turnstep 12:51, 30 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Google is hardly definitive! nor, I suggest, is a manufacturer of action figures. The only spelling I've been able to find that is official is on-screen in the DVD featurettes - "Choreography of a Stunt" and "Angel: The Final Season" both credit "Amy Acker (Fred/Ilyria)" with one "l".  Does anyone have an actual script? - Strobie 16:17, 20 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Credits, close captionings and press releases referr to her as Illyria. Double "l". Of course, only a shooting script can confirm the true spelling--Gonzalo84 21:13, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Powers and Abilities
I'd like to see my changes to the Powers and Abilities section kept: a recent edit seemed to have reverted my changes in addition to adding material - perhaps this was inadvertant. The more recent changes include this: The First view point believes Illyria's benchpress to be as stated due to a theory that Illyria to be at least 5 times stronger than Spike, Angel or Buffy, before the mutari-draining. She is also hypothesized to be twice as strong as these characters after the mutari draining. This is due to the First viewpoint placing the aforementioned characters in a class 10 lifting category. (To see this go to the link on Slayers and Buffy Summers)

I'm not exactly sure what all this means, to be honest, but we really need to have some good references to include this in an encylopedia. The whole section could still use some improvements, IMO. I'll try to make small changes and document them well: I encourage others to do the same. Turnstep 01:10, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Very recently another wikipedia user and I were in a disagreement on statistics in the Buffy universe. One that unfortunately carried out over several Buffy related pages. I had several points and citations on what the strength and speed level of different Buffy characters based on my avid viewing (and intense love) of both Buffy and Angel. Owning all the DVD's and looking at it, I will agree that everyone may have their own opinions, and I guess there isn't any surefire way to decide who is correct. So there was a compromise made where the encyclopedia featured both arguments/points of view in an equal standpoint. If you want to hear about my citations of Buffy, Angel, and other's statistics then feel free to either E-mail me at chrisonray@yahoo.com or IM at Xenabuffyfan. Later.
 * Hey Turnstep,

UltimateBuffyfan (Chris)

Sounds like you know the show much better than I do, but Wikipedia is not about opinions or viewpoints. Articles should be backed up with references and sources. DVDs can be a source, but only if done in an objective manner. I'll be happy to discuss specifics, if need be on this page. Thanks. Turnstep 03:42, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Cool! Yeah you're right. It's so hard tho when it comes to that because Joss Whedon hardly ever puts in numbers (well except when Buffy totes a "few hundred pound" steel girder like it were a plastic toy, he put it as just that on through dialogue "a few hundred pounds" the plastic toy part was Sarah Michelle Gellar's acting) Wow that was a big parenthesis ramble LOL. Anyways without just looking at "incidents" or whatever, its hard to use anything but a hypothesis. But your right, Turnstep. And I guess it would be hard for me to look at Buffy objectively since I have such a huge love for the show. And it isnt about opinions/viewpoints either. One of the only things I can think of in Buffy's strength feats is that most portcullis' (which she lifted in "Anne" ) weigh about 2 tons. Thats the only estimate I have. If you can think of more stuff, then def hit me up with more.

UltimateBuffyfan <Chris

Empathy Illyria is NOT empathic, nor is empathy needed to sense heat. Empathy is used to sense an emotional state. Look at this example from "Origin"\


 * ILLYRIA: Your body warms. (to Angel) This one is lusting after me.
 * CONNOR: Oh... no, I--I-- It's just that--it's the outfit. (whispers to Angel) I guess I've always had a thing for older women.
 * ANGEL: (to himself) They were supposed to fix that!

Note, she notes the body temperature FIRST and then reaches the conclusion (correct one) that Connor is lusting for her. Hence, Thermo-receptors or Infra-red vision are more likely. -- Majin Gojira


 * Then why do the previous posts say she is highly empathic?? Also where did all the history of Illyria come from?


 * Because I'm not some omnipotent. I have a finite amount of time to do edits and I miss stuff every now and then. I'll deal with the questionable information and flowery prose when I get a chance--but it won't be for a few weeks. - MG

Except she IS highly empathic and is always commenting on the emotional states of those around her. Apparently preternaturally. Also, why would you make the description of her sensory abilities more vague?


 * 1) The Vaugary was not my doing. Check the history page. 2) If you're going to make grand assertions like that, you better have SOLID EVIDENCE to back it up. I provided evidence that disproves the idea of empathy already. Where's your counter-evidence. Just because you say someting or think you see something does not mean it is true. -- MJ.


 * If this is still an active debate, I would vote to use the phrase "highly perceptive" instead of empathetic. Empathy, to me, signifies that she can relate to and understand their feelings by relating them to her own emotions and experiences, which i don't think is really accurate - she is extremely perceptive to the nuances of human dynamics and relationships because of her history and experiences, and she has a big picture approach to things.  I think that she was clearly experiencing human emotions to some extent (remember when she said that she wouldn't be bothered by Wesley's betrayal, except that she was bothered, or something like that, plus the uncontrollable grief at the end), but her emotions weren't the source of her insights, her experiences with power politics were the source, which is why it is harder for her to understand less self-interested actions (like Wesley wanting to stay with her during his last day on earth, and how she misinterpreted Angel's actions as being power hungry, rather than a trick, and how her own emotions were somewhat of a mystery to her). Just a thought, but I definitely think that "perceptive" or "highly perceptive" both work better than empathetic.  Riverbend 19:04, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I changed this somewhat, it may still need more tweaking but I think that it is better than the vague empathy stuff. Riverbend 19:43, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, I went back and did more tweaking, and basically rewrote the Powers and Abilities stuff. It seemed way redundant to have the list and then the short paragraphs reprising everything in the list again afterwards (and again in the infobox), plus all the problematic stuff on empathy.  It may still need more work, but I think it is better to keep it simple and clear, rather than repeating.Riverbend 22:31, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, about Illyria's abiltiy to sense emotions. I could agree with Riverbend, that perhaps empathic abilities woudl suggest that Illyria can relate to and understand the emotions. I was actually about to propose calling it "that she can discearn emotions" - or just "highly perceptive" as mentioned above. However, I do belive that she does is supernaturally. She might be able to sense the heat in Connor, but she comments on other things as well. During her first conversation with Wesley, she says: "This is grief. I'm watching human grief - it's like offal in my mouth." I think that her clear disgust suggests that it is more than just reading facial expressions and behaviour; she senses it, and doesn't enjoy it. When she meets Fred's parents, she tells Wesley: "Your grief hangs off of you like rotted flesh. I couldn't tolerate it from them as well." So either she is just very metaphorical in her description, or she actually senses it in him. And then there's the thing she tells Wesley in the training room: "You reek of frustration. Curls off of you like smoke." After which Spike says that it's the whiskey ... but seeing that Illyria tends to comment on people's emotions, I'd say it's much more likely that she senses the frustration, since he was frustrated with Angel. After having spent time with Wesley drinking and grieving, she should be used to the smell of alcohol, and not associate it with frustration. So maybe not empathic, but she does have the ability to sense emotions by other means than logic and enhanced senses. - Taura-Tierno

Where did all that history of Illyria come from? Joss Whedon?? Coz I never heard of those stuff on the episode. Or is it all made up to make Illyria's past sound more colorful(though I do agree it does)


 * The next chance I get, I'll revert back to the way it was to remove the crappy, flowery prose that one user put in. It's good speculation, but it's still blind speculation. We don't need the history of the Old Ones in this section. -- MG

Hi, I just wanted to ask: Wasn't it a running joke that Fred could talk to plants? So maybe that is not a power of Illyria's but just Fred's that she obtained? --Wyndham


 * That's certainly one theory, but we don't really know either way so it can't go in the article. As far as I recall Illyria's power to talk to plants is only mentioned briefly on a couple of occassions, so the details remain largely unknown. Their origin and nature are a mystery.Jayunderscorezero 13:19, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Adjusting character box
I've moved the lengthy rehearsal of Illyria's powers from the Character box to the main section. Character boxes should be brief, and while the information I moved might be of interest to some, it is too detailed for its former location. Instead I've placed it in the body of the article. Manticore 21:47, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Illyria alive?
''According to Joss Whedon and Amy Acker, Illyria survived the final battle against the Senior Partners of Wolfram & Hart. Her current status is unknown.''

Is there any proof to this? Like an articale or something? --DBGFrost 00:07, 24 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Plans for her in future works, mostly. The planned appearances in the IDW comics doesn't hurt either. For direct articles, search http://www.whedon.info for some. Majin Gojira 05:02, 24 March 2006 (UTC)


 * There appears to be some inconsistency over this. Despite his appearances in the post-season5 comics, Gunn gets an 'unknown' status due to the ambiguity of 'Not Fade Away'. Why don't Illyria, Angel and Spike get the same treatment? After all, the comics are not canon and are not 'proof' that they survived.Jayunderscorezero 13:18, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * | Big ol' link citing Illyria as a cast member for the proposed Spike movie. Majin Gojira 14:00, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * My point still exists. How is the currently non-existent Spike movie any better as a source than the comics? Until something definitive exists that proves otherwise, Illyria's status is unknown.Jayunderscorezero 15:31, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Unlike the EU material, this has the hallowed "Word of the Creators" behind it, which is largely what all of Buffyverse canon is based on. Seriosuly, look at the canon policy of this universe. If Joss or another major player says something, it's taken as Bible Truth. Majin Gojira 03:01, 23 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, I took your advice and went to the page that has the Buffy canon guidelines and I still have not been able to reach a definite conclusion. The rules themselves don't feature a definitive answer, even featuring the phrase "'canon' can be a fluid term that is interpreted differently by different people." I think that is the case here. Whilst I agree that the creators' word is the word of god in this case, I think that there is a difference between what a creator says about a character in an interview and what they actually put down on paper or on sceen. 'Planned' events are not canon; not yet anyway. Based solely on canonical material has actually been produced so far, the only conclusion we can reach is that Illyria's status is uncertain, as we last saw her at the end of 'Not Fade Away'. If the Spike movie is ever made, she can then definitely be considered alive, but until then, I still maintain that her status cannot be proven/disproven either way. Jayunderscorezero 15:24, 23 April 2006 (UTC)


 * It's a neutral stance to take. However, if you change one, you'll have to change the others as well (IE: Angel, Gunn, and Spike, as well as Illyria). I'm rather neutral on the subject myself, I'm just bringing up what evidene there is for the subject. I'd suggest bringing it up on the main wikiproject Buffy page. Majin Gojira 17:17, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay, finally got round to changing the thing. I put the complete truth: that her status is technically unknown for now, but future spin-offs may confirm her as alive. If/when the Spike movie comes about, I'll be perfectly happy to change it to 'Alive' then.Jayunderscorezero 08:03, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Gender
I was under the assumption that Illyria was male (s/he says that s/he was a "God-king" several times). Is there any proof that the original Illyria was female? --Killaferra 22:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Official documents (press releases and what not) refer to Illyria as "Female". If that was not there, it would be far simpler to assume that Illyria was genderless--given that Illyria is a "Lovecraftian" horror - Majin Gojira 00:32, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Picture
Can the picture be adjusted somehow so the character can be seen better. Its just that the picture seems too dark, hence people might have difficulty looking at it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by NewDreams2 (talk • contribs) 14:30, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

Paragraph removed
I removed the following paragraph from the "Character history" section:


 * As depicted in an illustration of a statue of her in Vahla ha'nesh, Illyria's original form was monstrous. Illyria had five tentacles on either side of her torso which she used like arms; flexible and dexterous to the point she could clutch and operate weapons with them. She had two claw-like feet that allowed her to perch, much like an eagle. The rest of Illyria's form is obscured by armor, but her humanoid shape suggests that her head and torso are in much the same configuration as a human's.

It is just a written description of with a good amount of original research thrown in. Even without the OR issues I don't think this paragraph adds anything to the reader's understanding, given that the image in question already appears in the article. Camerafiend (talk) 04:05, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

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