Talk:Illyrian language/Archive 1

Comments
Since very little is known about the Illyrian languages than many other ancient tongues

What does this mean? Andres 21:11, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC)

And also: Afterwards they were suppressed by the Slavs ..

it doesn't look so POV, to be fair .. --Alessandro Riolo 17:24, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * POV stands for Point of View, and NPOV stands for Neutral Point of View, Wikipedia has a policy of maintaining NPOV. Assuming, you got those two confused, what do you think the sentence should say to be NPOV? Dori | Talk 17:30, Apr 9, 2004 (UTC)


 * First, I was meaning NPOV, it was just a typo. Second, there is not definitive proof the Illyrians were suppressed from the Slaves, they could have been assimilated, or they could have just borrowed the language of other people (possibly Venetians if they were living in the Adriatic coastal cities and Slavic or Romanian languages if they were living in the backlands). --Alessandro Riolo 20:19, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * I am not an expert in the field, probably no one knows what happened anyway. I'm not saying you're wrong, I am just asking how we should fix it. Dori | Talk 03:05, Apr 10, 2004 (UTC)

None native scholars face challenging obstacles when dealing with Illyrian (Albanian) language
The Best work of Illyrian language is wrighten by albanian resarchers, one of them is Spiro Kondo "Albanians as Illyrians and Pelasgians" the resarch streches over a period of 70 years. dr.prof Kondo finished his work at the age of 96.Trojani 06:26, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Illyrian: Centum or Satem
From John Wilkes, The Illyrians, Blackwell Books, 1992, pgs. 72--73:


 * "A more difficult question is how Illyrian fits within the family of Indo-European languages. As a whole, this has been divided into a western group (Germanic, Venetic, Illyrian, Celtic, Italic and Greek) and an eastern group (Baltic, Slavic, Albanian, Thracian, Phrygian, Armenian, Iranian, Indian)."


 * "There is no evidence that Illyrian in fact belongs to the satem group, but the argument that it does is crucial to the case that modern Albanian is descended from Illyrian."

--Note that Wilkes is merely summarizing the research and conclusions of the scholarly work done in this field by others. He is an archaeologist, not a linguist, which is a plus here: because this shows he is quoting the linguistic consensus not giving us his opinion. Alexander 007 22:36, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Aigest 08:05, 6 September 2007 (UTC) I think that in order to make such a claim you have to be more specific about the resources. Which are these scholars, how did they come to this conclusion? I have read that this kind of interpretation of Illyrian language as a Centum language, was based on the idea that venetians (who had left some scripts) were an Illyrian tribe, while this theory has been turned down now.

Messapian languageThis is relativeMegistias (talk) 18:45, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * In that article is written that Messapic belong to Centum, while the characteristics in the end show a Satem language. Also as far as I know Messapic is considered Satem. Which is the source that declares it Centum? Aigest (talk) 08:31, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Classical sources
--stating that Messapians migrated from Illyria to southern Italy. I have to locate them and confirm their existence, in case I was mistaken. Alexander 007 07:07, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Word similarities
I don't see the point in linking Illyrian words with Albanian or any existing languages based on similarities, as if that proves anything. Rhinos and re do not sound similar at all. Linking Illyrian word for pool "lugo" with Alb "lugine" (lake) doesn't prove anything (and besides, the Albanian word for lake is actually liqen, not lugine). The Russian word for pool is "luzha" and the Serbian word is "lug" so lug is probably an ancient Indo-European word for pool, no doubt found in many IE languages, for example English "lagoon". Doctor Robotnik 17:38, 19 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, "lugine" was added by anonymous IP, along with some other ones that I removed; I have not verified such an Albanian word. There is a Proto-Indo-European root *laku-, from which comes Latin lacus and Irish loch and some others. English lagoon derives from French lagune<Italian laguna<Latin lacuna<lacus. However, the Old Albanian ren is given as a probable cognate to Illyrian rhinos in a number of sources, such as Wilkes 1992; of course, one word, even if indeed a cognate, proves nothing; but see Paionian language for example, where relevant cognates are given, but not with any intention to "prove" the specific language affinity. The Albanian ren and re will be restored. Alexander 007 17:55, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Lugine in Albanian means Valley, while Luge means Spoon and Luget means Concave. Also the Albanian word for Lake is Liqen, Gjol or Legate. Aigest (talk) 15:46, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Lituanian language has its own unique word for the lake "Ezheras" which is derived from another Lituanian word "Ashara" meaning a tear. However "Lagune (It.)", "Lake (Eng.)" or "Luzha (Rus.)" comes from another Lithuanian word "Likuonis" meaning the remaining water, and this word comes from Lithuanian word "likti" which has a meaning "to remain/stay after something". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.151.245.59 (talk) 12:27, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Moreover Lithuanian word "lakti/laku" means "to lap/I lap" (it usualy is used for dogs), but it originates from the action of liking "laizhyti" and has nothing in common with a lake I think. .

The recent edits
The recent changes to the article do not reflect contemporary linguistic consensus. To claim that it is widely accepted that Illyrian evolved into Albanian is dubious at the very least. We simply don't know enough of Illyrian to reach a definite conclusion, and probably never will; pretty much everything known about Illyrian is tentative and speculation. Even contemporary Albanian linguists such as Bardhyl Demiraj treat the Illyrian hypothesis as one among others and don't bother to give exact answers. In light of this, I am reverting the article back to where is was last week, to the version which accurately reflects what we known about Illyrian. --Chlämens 16:41, 7 May 2007 (UTC) you want proof well look no futher but just the names of Illirans those names are used today in Albania Kosovo and where ever there are Albanians spaeking albanian most names examples Gezim Arjan Alban Agron Artimis Besnik Ilir Mal etc etc the spaelling is the same to day Albanians are Illyrians —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.12.107.51 (talk) 02:37, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Respond to mr "The recent edits"
Bring some proof to your claims then people would take you seriously, but as many times before ther is a single proof wich supports your self refering conclusion. Albanians are the ancient Illyrians its not somthing you on your one can change. Ther is genetical,linguistical and anthropological correlation between Illyrians and Albanians, if you would like to see tham just askTrojani 22:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, so far I have named one of the most well-known and published contemporary Albanian albanologists, who treats the Illyrian hypothesis as one among others and basically avoids reaching a definite conclusion, because there is simply not enough data to do so. Also, we are talking about the language here, not about genetics. The Albanians probably are genetically descendants of the Illyrians, but that doesn't mean that their language has to be a descendant as well. The French are also descendants of the Celtic Gauls even though they speak a Romanic language, and a Basque who does not speak Basque anymore still has Basque ancestors. The point is not that Albanian is not a descendant of the Illyrian language, the point is that there is not enough data to prove or disprove that it is. And for you information: I've lived in Albania for 8 years and am always the first one to defend the country and the people when others talk bad about it, you're going to have to find a better argument than that I am trying to discredit Albanians.
 * Your turn now to provide a contemporary Albanologist who supports your view. --Chlämens 00:08, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Aigest 08:11, 6 September 2007 (UTC) There is a publication recently of Shaban Demiraj, about the origin of the albanian language. It is published in albanian and english version and you can use it as e reference.

Modern countries on Illyrian soil
Modern countries on Illyrian soil

The following modern countries are on illyrian soil so they take part in the illyrian "heritage".They must be included in all Illyrian projects and since Wilkes points out that among Slavs and the Vlach population of the Areas true illyrian ancestors are found they must be posted and Quoted.This Albanian exclusiveness is arbitrary and irrelevant as most of illyria is part of other countries and other peoples have such ancestors.

ALBANIA (about half of albania) MONTENEGRO SERBIA CROATIA BOSNIA & HERSEGOVINA SLOVENIA HUNGARY

Albanians and Illyrians = No.Slavs and Vlachs=YEs
Albanians and Illyrians = No.Slavs and Vlachs=YEs

"The Illyrians, like the Celts and Thracians, dissolved in the sea of latter conquerors, simply for the reason that during the long period of Roman rule they had lost their native culture and were unable to utilize their language to a political life of their own...We first learn of Albanians in their native land as the Arbanites of Arbanon in Anna Comnena's (Alexiad 4)."

John Wilkes, "The Illyrians", Blackwell Publishers, Cambridge, 1992

John Wilkes: "The Illyrians", Oxford Press, 1996:

(1) "..A separate group of Illyrians identified by renowned historian Geza Alfoldy: he identifies 'Pannonian peoples' in Bosnia, northern Montenegro [around Plyevlya and Priyepolye, p.84] and western Serbia [Sanxak]". p.75

(2) "Not much reliance should perhaps be placed on attempts to identify an Illyrian anthropological type as short and dark-skinned similar to moderAlbanians." p.219

(3) "...a documented description of Illyrians, Pannonian family: - Pannonians are tall and strong, always ready for a fight and to face dangerous but slow-witted." p.219

(4) "Life has always been hard in the Illyrian lands and countless wars of resistance against invadors are testimony to the durability of their populations." p.220

(5) "In sum, the destructive impact [of Bosnia-centred theory] on the earlier generalizations regarding Illyrians should be regarded as a step forward." p.40

???Okay,we get it,there's a large number of people that don't believe much in an albanian-illyrian connection,either because such a connection would not suit them or simply because they don't find it convincing enough.Personally,as an Albanian,can't say I'm 100% sure myself,but there's no need to mention all these "arguments" twice as I believe most of us could read them just fine the previous time.Amenifus (talk) 07:20, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

etymologies
One of the most contentious issues with Illyrian is its virtually unprovable link to Albanian. This link cannot be proven concretely largely because, as is clear from the list, there is so little written evidence to draw from that it would be hard to solidly link Illyrian with ANY other language.

The point of providing an expanded list of words and names - one of the fullest you will find anywhere in English - as well as their etymologies is to firmly demonstrate the relations of these words and firmly establish their meaning. So many of the listed words are in fact names which therefore have no particular meaning in and of themselves. Furthermore, a list of cognates helps to prevent some people from making false connections, as has happened recently on this page.

Speaking of which, I have removed a number of additions that purported to link a few words to other words in Albanian, as if they were related. They were:


 * brisa, "husk of grapes" is not related to Albanian bërsi "lees, dregs; mash", which is in fact either from native *bhrutja "brew" or from a Vulgar Latin brútea or Late Greek broûtia, both of which borrowed from Thracian brýtia, brýtos "barley liquor";


 * sibina, listed as from Albanian sy + bin, "hit on the eyes", a patently ridiculous suggestion, especially since historically Albanian did not make compounds in this way and neither did most other Indo-European languages, and it is improbable that sy and bin would have had virtually the same form over 2,000 years ago: s should have become gj, and the final two syllables -ina should have become -inë > then -în > then -i; also, the meaning in Albanian is too preposterous;


 * Bindus was listed as related to Albaniann bind "to coax, convince", but bind is from Indo-European bheidh and is a derivative of Albanian bê, besë "oath" (< Proto-Albanian *baidâ, *baitsâ), whereas Bindus is not;


 * Bosona was linked to Albanian bes, but I don't know what this person is referring to since I don't know any such word in Albanian; in the Illyrian word, the ona stands for "water" and bos for "flowing, running";


 * Tergitio is likened to Albanian treg "market", however the word in Albanian is a borrowing from Slavic *ti^rgi^, *tru^gu^ and dergoj, also mentioned, is not related; the tell-tale t/d dichotomy and reversal of er/re also point to no link; finally, dergoj is not related to the other cognates listed, showing that it is inappropriate here;


 * Teuta is clearly the word for "tribe", few etymologists doubt that, and the form listed here, *dheut-, is not a word in Albanian, but is in fact an erroneous reconstructed Indo-European form for dhe "ground", which is actually from Proto-Albanian *dzô, from IE *dhghom (cf. Gk chthon, etc.);


 * Tómaros is clearly not from a proposed te marr, which is part of an innovated infinitive construction, the full expession of which is për te marr, where marr "to take, grab" is instead from Proto-Albanian *marna and is either cognate with Latin manus "hand", Old English mund "guardian", etc. or Greek meirimai.


 * baláur, "dragon", found also in Serbo-Croatian as blavor, was listed separately as an Illyrian word, but this is a Romanian word borrowed from Albanian bullar, bollar "blindworm", from bollë "large serpent" or boljë "dragon", borrowed from Latin bolea "salamandar".

I hope this has been instructive on the threat of page hijackers, pseudo-scientific language study, and the importance of etymology to keep pages like this somewhat protected. Consider an etymology like a citation form.

Flibjib8 20:13, 26 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I was curious about that list of names with explanations above. Is that an original study or not? Aigest (talk) 11:29, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

On Albanian claims regarding illyria,pelasgians and others
Here are some quotes from famous Albanian historians;

Quote: "(Dr Kaplan Resuli-Albanologist, academic and Albanian historian):

When the Albanians arrive on the Balkan and today's Albania, there is nothing else they can do except to take those toponyms. A large part of Albania is flooded with Serbian toponyms. Just as an example, I wish to mention the towns of Pogradec, Kor?a (Korcha), (Chorovoda), Berat, Bozigrad, Leskovik, Voskopoja, Kuzova, Kelcira, Bels and others.

Quote: "(Dr Kaplan Resuli-Albanologist, academic and Albanian historian):

After him followed the Albanian scholar Dr. Adrian Qosi who in the middle of Tirana openly opposed the hypothesis about the Illyrian origin of the Albanians. With me agreed, via the printed media, several other younger scholars of whom I would especially mention Fatos Lubonja, Prof. Adrian Vebiu and others." Quote: About the Albanians, Wilkes writes "NOT MUCH RELIANCE SHOULD PERHAPS BE PLACED ON ATTEMPTS TO IDENTIFY AN ILLYRIAN ANTHROPOLOGICAL TYPE AS SHORT AND DARK SKINNED SIMMILAR TO MODERN ALBANIANS."

Wilkes was proven CORRECT by science when the Human Genome Project's Y-chromosome study of European populations, confirmed that the vast majority of contemporary Albanians do not share an Illyrian or any Indo-European lineage. Quote: That's the way it is with our culture, which is mythomaniac, national-communist, romantic, self-glorifying. You can't say anything objective without people getting angry. The Albanians are a people who still dream. That is what they are like in their conversations, their literature...In light of Hoxha and 'pyramid schemes, Albanians are a people who still dream. That's just the way they are..." Fatos Lubojia - Albanian historian Quote: Albanian scholar Dr. Adrian Qosi writes: I can say that today appear a group of new Albanian scholars who do not agree with the false myths (About Illyrian & Epirote descent) and courageously accept the scientific truth that they are not whatsoever connected to these ancient peoples. I am proud that I lead this group and that they took up from me the necessary scholarly courage."

Quote: Ardian Vebiu Famous Albanian historian writes:

My personal opinion is that the issue of Albanians descending or not from Illyrians doesn't deserve the interest it has traditionally aroused. There is absolutely NO Illyrian cultural legacy among Albanians today. In a certain sense, Illyrians (with their less fortunate fellows, the Pelasgians) are a pure creation of Albanian romanticism.Megistias (talk) 20:02, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

First of,I noticed that a historian becomes "famous" when he rejects an albanian-paleobalkanic theory.It's not for anyone here to decide whether someone is absolutely credible or not.I could understand the rejection of an albanian-illyrian connection,but these well known "historians" concur on other things as well, such as: Scanderbeg was a Slav prince,Ismail Qemal an irredentist Turk,half(if not all) Albanian poets,writers and people of the albanian rennaisance were albanised Greeks,Slavs,Vlachs that took pity in the poor condition of the albanians.The general POV of these historians,linguists,albanologs and who knows what else,is that Albanians are the one and only phantom nation that travelled half way across Europe without anyone noticing.On the whole,Albanians seem to be a nation of usurpers and pretenders,pirating every single puzzle piece of their history frome their neighbors.I'm actually surprised that their theory was left incomplete, seeing as the distance Albania-Moldavia more or less equals Transylvania-Caucas.It also seemed so convenient that these scientists came forth now that the melting pot of civilisations we call Balkans is starting to break,meaning the Kosovo incidents in particular.Either way I decided to rummage around a bit more before concluding,and in as much as two minutes,I came across the following info:Resulli's actual last name is Burovich(doesn't sound very albanian to me) but still his origins are by no means something to discredit him for.The final touch however was finding out that Resulli and his supporters had all been persecuted(and even tortured!) during the communist dictatorship,so it seems at least natural that they reject and attack every single element that the communism era imprinted in Albania.I cannot see how their arguments are valid and NPOV and suggest that we don't utilise them.(Megistias, I really hope it wasn't you that posted this.)Amenifus (talk) 10:01, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * We didn't use it in the article anyways.Megistias (talk) 10:12, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Still I see these arguments "popping up" in every section related to Albania.My presence in Wiki is only recent but I'm certain this doesn't agree with policy.I understand you are having a hard time with some Albanian editors,but answering irredentist thoughts in kind is not applausible.Personally,I've stumbled upon various "radical" theories placing the origins of the Greek tribes in Somalia,Ethiopia and so on,but I never bothered with them since they seemed a pseudo-scientific load of BS from the start.Amenifus (talk) 10:32, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The talk page is for the talk .Some albanian editors spam with illyrian-pelasgian theories that are not plausible.We can talk and disagree on things on the talk page and so on.Megistias (talk) 10:35, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

On the Albanian Claim that they have Illyrian names today
ISBN 960-210-279-9 Miranda Vickers, The Albanians Chapter 9. "Albania Isolates itself" page 196 it is stated

From time to time the state gave out lists with pagan ,supposed Illyrian or newly constructed names that would be proper for the new generation of revolutionaries.(see also Also Logoreci "the Albanians" page 157.)Megistias (talk) 23:08, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Albanians are Dacians?
I don't know much on the subject guys, but after reading article about Dacian language, and especially after looking at the MAP provided there, I got impression that Dacian is forebear of Albanian, not Illyrian. Why this POV is not supplied here at all? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.60.54.188 (talk) 20:35, 28 November 2007 (UTC) Because due to recent historical and political events Albania supported and supports the Illyrian theory as means of expansion and unity.Its nationalistic.If they admit that they are "Dacians" then they have no claim to the areas involved in current politics and their unity will falter since they would admit they are not the original inhabitants of their country.Megistias (talk) 20:46, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with the above two posts. The linguistic evidence points to the Dacian language, rather than Illyrian, as the closest relative of Albanian.  See also the excellent, NPOV article on the Origin of Albanians for more info on this.  But like Megistias said, if it were shown conclusively that Albanians are descended from Dacians and not Illyrians, it would utterly negate the revanchist territotial claims they have with respect to neighboring countries.  It's a classic case of science being suborned to political-nationalist aspirations.  --Tsourkpk (talk) 01:15, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Even though the Dacian theory also convinces me and I agree with you on linguistics being misguided by political agenda pushers, (though what the implications for "revancist claims" are is beyond me; Albanians do harbor "revancist" feelings towards areas such as Chameria, but that has nothing to do with an Illyrian descent but with the simple fact that the area was largely Albanian-speaking until 1945) I urge you not to inflame this heated issue even more, we have enough ethnic agenda pushers from all sides here as it is. --Chlämens (talk) 01:55, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The region has been known as Epirus since earliest antiquity. There is not and has never been such a thing as "Chameria" nor was Epirus ever "largely" Albanian-speaking.  Chams were always in the minority (<40,000). --Tsourkpk (talk) 18:53, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

you guys are pushing forward things that you don't know for sure. The Albanians are widely accepted as the descendats of Illyrians by most of the archeologists and linguists. Of course there are other theories, but they are full of misinterpretation of the facts and with no logical background and also I might add they represent the minority. An example of missinterpretation of the facts is that on the article of Albanian language. In that article is said "Finally, few if any Proto-Albanian place names exist in what was the former Roman province of Illyria" what does it mean? That there are not Illyrian names in the Albanian soil? This is not true. Shkoder-Scodra, Durres-Durrachium, Ulqin-Ulcinium, Vlona-Aulona, Shkumbin-Skampinus, Drin-Drin, Lesh-Lissus, Pojan-Apolonia, Vjos-Aos, and we are talking about main cities and rivers and they all have derived according to internal linguistic rules of the Albanian language. For archeological data and their outcome I suggest you to read Alexander Stipcevic "Illyrians" if you don't believe Albanian archeologists. He has done archeological researches by himself and in team for 30 years, as an Yugoslavian Academic throughout all Yugoslavia and Albania, and he was specialised in Illyrian reperts. But he is not blinded by nacionalism as some others. Best regards Aigest 14:39, 30 November 2007 (UTC) Placenames can be inherited and we need reliable and specific sources regarding the Illyrian Language then see if any modern people are related.Stipevic confuses greeks and thracians and celts with Illyrians in an idiotic fashion.He is unreliable to say the least.Megistias 14:55, 30 November 2007 (UTC)  Of course that name places can be inherited, but the question is from whom? If they come from their oldest to newest form without interruption it means that the population was always there. If there was a latinised population in these cities their form should have been transformed through that language and the later population would have inherited not in proper way. For ex Durrachium-Drac(slav)-Durres???!! if the city was in slav hands before albanian than the actual name would have been different (this is an example showing the change of the names through the evolution of a language). I told you before that these names have been transformed to the actual form without interruption, according to albanian language rules. So it means that the population was always there. As for Stipcevic I have read both versions of his book and I didn't find a confusion there between Greeks and Thracs or Illyrian and Celts. These are accusations without base. In that book he mentioned the influence (that can be seen in archeological residues) of the Celts, especially in northern tribes of Illyria, but he never confuses them. It is better for you to read that book, because it has a lot of illustrations from archeological excavations in all Illyrian territory. From the rapidity of your response I can see that you didn't care to take a reading of his article. Please read it because it has a lot of references and is a very good article which shows the influence of the politics over history. Then tell me which things are not true from what he said about his Serbian collegues. Regards Aigest 15:19, 30 November 2007 (UTC) We need neutral secondary sources on Illyrian linguistics.Kosova report can write whatever it wants in this time where autonomy and other issues are heated and objectivity together with truth is the first casualty of war.Illyrian linguistics sources from non-balkan modern scientists so political issues wont be the cause for either disqualification and we will be able to see into that matter clearly.Lets stay in the illyrian language alone, discover data than relate it if it can be with modern languages.Megistias 15:27, 30 November 2007 (UTC) In case you didn't understand the article was from Alexander Stipcevic. In that website it was only a copy of it. And you still didn't said to me which were his lies in his article. We are talking about a well known Yugoslavian archeologist. Why don't you read it? Are you affraid of something? Regards Aigest 15:36, 30 November 2007 (UTC) I know of stipevic(sic) and the page you linked is full of racist epithetes against slavic people.Kosova report is not a source of any kind.Megistias 15:42, 30 November 2007 (UTC) I do not approve that kind of language but this is the only website that this article was in English. The other version I had it in Albanian. Please read it and if you can find anything else in Greek or English from him, please put it forward. Anyway in a dispute before you mentioned Kapllan Resuli(vic) an Albanian writer. I have read his publishing and I demonstrated that 1rst he was not an academic 2nd he had no arguments, except lyings. But I didn't told you he was from Balkans or cetera. I just read his article and told you his nonsense talking (I can do it again if you need). Furthermore this guy Stipcevic is slav itself and surely he is not making a good propaganda for them. Regards Aigest 15:53, 30 November 2007 (UTC) You didnt discredit Kapllan Resuli.You expressed your doubts which you didnt base in evidence.This general article is on illyrian languages and the current subject in Albanian-Dacian relationship.Stipevic baptised celts,thracians and greeks as illyrians and is not reliable as he goes against and with no arguments all primary and secondary sources on these issues.Megistias 15:57, 30 November 2007 (UTC) This seems more likely as you appear n the area in about 1000 AD and at the same time the vlachs of the area are pushed southward into pindus.Megistias 16:02, 30 November 2007 (UTC) I will leave Resulovic apart If I was in your place, he is just a charlatan. That map is very funny, first in that century 1034 Albanians are mentioned near Durres by Michael Attaleiates as "Unfortunately, the people who had once been our allies and who possessed the same rights as citizens and the same religion, i.e. the Albanians and the Latins, who live in the Italian regions of our Empire beyond Western Rome, quite suddenly became enemies". As for the population of Durres at that time? Was it Slav? If it was slav than the name was to be Drac not Durres and I can continue for hours on this argument because this map is totally wrong. Which were the Albanian cities of that period? Why they were not mentioned? And where were the Slavs at that time? We know where were the bulgarians at that time. and the albanians in that territory beetwen Romanians, Serbs and Bulgars were not assimilated?? And albanians moved to Drac, returning name to Durres:))???For what? Who forced them? Why they were not mentioned before? Why they remained catholics? Why they assimilated a bigger and stronger population? Were they superior??!! And I can continue for hours with these questions because this is totally wrong. I'll give you one simple example, because I don't have much time for today..... Croia(ALB) (water source in English was mentioned as Episcopal Center in 879. How did tha Slavs or latins or whatever kind of population, predicted that the Albanians would have used that name for the city??:)) Kroi in albanian means water source and the city is full of them. I don't think Albanians didn't had water sources in their "supposed" lands. And by the way...no other indoeuropian language has that word for water sources. Regards Aigest 16:43, 30 November 2007 (UTC) 879 the Croia you say is mentioned.5-10th century albanians according to this theory migrate to the given area.Some toponyms stay the same and some change.Than why arent you mentioned before 1000 ad as a people in this area?.Megistias 16:52, 30 November 2007 (UTC) In fact Albanians and their city Albanopolis has been mentioned by Claudius Ptolemaeus in his work Geographia (Ptolemy) in 2nd century A.D. And their territory was behind Durrachium (Durres) near Croia (Kruja). In the same territory they were mentioned later by byzantine historians.Regards Aigest 09:51, 3 December 2007 (UTC) Hi, it is me again, who started this sub-title. Comment on the last post - "albanoi" and "albanopolis" mentioned by greeks don't prove anything because Albanians himself don't call themselves "Albanians". As far as I know you call yourself "Shqip" and Albania - "Shqipere" (sorry if I misspelt it) - thus mentioned "Albanoi" could refer to some other nation. But back to the question of Daco-Albanian or Illyro-Albanian unity. Do you have any genetical research done? It is rather obvious that if Albanians are descendants of Illyrians then you should have common genes with Croats and if descendants of Dacians - common genes with Romanians. Was anything like this attempted by any scholar?
 * The ethnonym Shqiptar is relatively recent (and is derived from an older word for "to speak", even though many Albanians use the folk-etymology that it has something to do with "shqiponja" -eagle). The original name is in fact thought to be something like "Arber" or "Arberia", I would have to check the literature on the exact form, and of the exact word that "shqip" is derived from. This is also why the Albanians in Italy still refer to themselves as Arbereshe, they were cut off from the main Albanian speech area before "Shqiptar" came into use. --Chlämens (talk) 22:02, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, "Arber" makes a better sense, but still there are many identical names of nations in early Europe, like "Veneti" who were found in Italy, Gaul, Germany and northern Russia - completely unrelated among each other. Therefore, I am not saying "Albanoi" refered to by the Greeks were not predecessors of Albanians, but just coicedence of names is not to be excluded. Anyway, if "Albanoi" is the real name of "Albanians", then Albanians can't be Illyrians because "Albanoi" and Illyrians were contemporaries. Furthermore, how is "white" in Albanian? "Albanoi" could be just "white people" in Latin sources, there are many example of colour-induced names of tribes, like "Rus" for vikings (because of red-hair), or "Polovets" for fair-haired nomads in southern Russia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.241.200.14 (talk) 11:33, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I think you misunderstood what I said. The Albanoi was a tribe among Illyrian tribes of that time. In his work Geographia, he mentioned Illyrian territory and Illyrian tribes in that territory. He identified them (Albanoi) as an Illyrian tribe which were near today's Kruja. But Albanians (Shqiptarët) have never called themselves as such. In medieval age they referred to themselves as Arban or Arbën as a population (although other terms like Illyrians, Macedonians, Epirots were used, look Barletius for example in Historia de vita et gestis Scanderbegi Epirotarum principis ). Later on, this term was not in use anymore and the name Shqiptar (from shqip-eagle or shqip-speak clear is still being discussed) replaced the name of Arban. During these times these changes in Albanians own references to themselves were not reflected to other populations. The greeks have used the term arvanit (arban-arvan, b-v change in greek language) and the other term alvanos (alban-alvan, b-v rule) which comes from latin root Alban. As for the root white there is in fact a study of 1985 by Albanian historian, which pretends (In my opinion might be correct) that the tribe name Albanoi and their city Albanopolis, were translation of the Illyrian tribe Parthin and their city Parthinoi (Parth-Bardh-White in Albanian). His study showed that the Parthins who were famous and quite strong Illyrian tribe and were lying in that territory, in fact were not mentioned in the Ptolemy's work Geographia, although there were mentioned all Illyrian tribes from the north to the south. Parthins as a tribe were mentioned before Ptolemy and after Ptolemy in different works until Vth century A.D. (Ptolemy mentioned them in IIth century A.D.) and the Ptolemy was the only one geographer who mentioned Albanoi and Albanopolis. Their mentioning before and after Ptolemy, means that they were not extinct as a tribe in Ptolemy's time. Also their territory was the same of the Albanoi, this leaded to his (historian) conclusion that term Albanoi was in fact a translation of the name of the tribe Parth. Later the work of Ptolemy was wellknown to byzantine writers, who used the same term to describe the population near Kruja. Aigest (talk) 12:45, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Note that terms macedonian,illyrian and epirote were geographic terms as the roman provinces included populations other than the above and traditionally the province names would be used to charakterise someones "origin".Also the impressions of medieval lords and personalities on antiquity were pure fantasy as albanians had nothing to do with macedons or epirots as they came to the area at 1000 Ad and after and if proven to be descendants of illyrians they again are not related to macedons or epirotes who were Greek.For example Justinian was born in Naisus (the modern Nis in Serbia). He was ethnically Thracian, and bilingual in Thracian and Latin in his upbringing. Constantine I was from a Roman family and was born also in Serbia - his father was Roman and his mother Bythinian.His wasn't illyrian but merely came from a province with that name.Megistias (talk) 15:39, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
 * My point here was, how the Albanians called themselves. If they were fantasies or something else, this is another issue. In the documents written by albanians themselves the above mentioned terms were used, this is a fact, you can not deny it and this was my point.Aigest (talk) 16:01, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Point taken.As you have seen in other talk pages they were wrong about macedons and epirotes and may not have been on illyrians though we arent sure yet.Megistias (talk) 16:22, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

One of the problems is that many people tend to look at it from one perspective, "the Albanian language shows lexical similarities with Romanian, hence Albanians must be Dacians" or "there was an Illyrian tribe called Albanoi = Albanians must be Illyrians" or "there is genetic/archeological continuity/discontinuity; hence they must/must not be Illyrians" etc. It is very common however for people to take on the language and name of another group, just look at the French, who speak a language derived from Latin, are largely of Celtic descent, and call themselves after a Germanic tribe. Quite possible that something similiar happened with the Albanians, it simply is not sufficiently documented. --Chlämens (talk) 16:25, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I think you asked for a DNA study? This is one look at the results and the small differences between Albanian and Greeks. These means something don't you think?! If they would have come in 10century like "someone" says this wouldn't have been scientifically possible. After you finish it we'll talk. Aigest (talk) 16:35, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Albanians migrated in Greece in the middle ages and mixed greatly.It shows nothing about the ancient world but alot about 1000 AD to today.Megistias (talk) 16:39, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Read my post again, my point is that a genetic study might point to one origin, a linguistic one to another origin, and the name to yet another one. If one were to analyze the genetic origin of the French for instance, one would see that they are largely indigenous, if one looks at their language one would assume that they are from Italy, and if you only look at their name you would think that they are from Northern Germany. Quite likely that the same happened with the Albanians, which is why trying to find "the" one and only origin of the Albanians (or any group of people) is pretty pointless. --Chlämens (talk) 16:43, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? Look at the differences. You mean there are no Greeks but just Albanians who speaks Greek?? This looks like Albanian extremist ideas:)LOL. Oh, another study look . I want you to understand what it says. Both Greek and Albanians in both studies show almost (scientifically) no differences with each other and great differences with the Slavs. Also there are big differences between them and Romanians. Just look and please comment.Aigest (talk) 16:49, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I will provide data on Albanian language and its links to Illyrians as soon as possible. But for the moment just see the DNA studies. They mean something and are a strong indication. You can not find such similarity in all Europian nations. Aigest (talk) 16:54, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, thanks for figuring out what kind of agenda-pushing you want to accuse me of, but you are trying to kick in an open door, because you seem to be getting at the same point as me. Read my first two posts over carefully. --Chlämens (talk) 17:20, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I will provide data on Albanian language and its links to Illyrians as soon as possible. But for the moment just see the DNA studies. They mean something and are a strong indication. You can not find such similarity in all Europian nations. I totally agree that different studies such as linguistic or genetic can point to different origins, but this genetic study is a prove that Albanians and Greeks as populations were always (I mean prehistoric terms) there. If Albanian language is linked to Illyrian....that is another issue. P.S. The comment over Albanian extremist ideas was for Megistias words. I was writting while you were leaving a comment. It was a joke and I think Megistias will understand it:)Aigest (talk) 17:24, 5 December 2007 (UTC) You really confuse me aigest.Lets summarize some things.Epirotes and Macedons and others spoke greek and were greek.Thats what secondary sources tell us.And please forget pelasgians they are either mythical, greeks themselves or something unclaimable.Your language isnt greek but it could be thracian or illyrian.If you are north thracians-Dacians that descended to the current area you area in it explains genetic similarities if we find that thracians had similar genetics to greeks and the lingual status or later medieval mixing.If you are illyrians than you shoulndt have any similarities in genetics to greeks unless the mixing after so many centuries created the differences.Either way genetics don't tell us much since there was mixing for sure from 1000 AD and after anyways.The only way to use genetics safely is if greeks and albanians had not mixing and then had the genetics test.But we mixed from 1000 AD and so on.Linguistics will define more than anything else.Megistias (talk) 21:34, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I can see that you Megistias did not understood the results of these studies. If you see carefully the charts you will see that the movements of the populations can be traced by genetic marks. Albanians and Greeks differs from Slavs, Bulgarians(Thrace), Romanians(Dacia). These movements (in Albania and Greece) are PREHISTORIC, which means that the creation of the population in those territories was made from that genetic material. After you understand those Eu(X) in these studies and their importance we will talk again, but be ready to change your opinions.Aigest (talk) 08:30, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

People and genetics interchangeably change as time passes.Bulgarians-Romanians arent pure bred thracians and dacians and there have been countless populace movements in and out of the balkans.The research is unreliable and doenst nullify archaeology even if it was valid.Megistias (talk) 11:40, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I can see that you still didn't understood that study. The research was made on specific aleles and haplogroups, it was not made on the all genetic code. This traces should have been present in Romanian or Bulgarian populations, even after the mixing of the populations. In this studies Albanians, Greeks, Sardinians, Calabrians, are declared as mediterranean populations (Albanians and Greeks were very similiar). I don't think that you can describe Dacians or Thracians as Mediterranean populations, otherwise it's useless to continue this conversation. Genetic searches show Albanians as a mediterranean population, end of story. You will have materials on language later. BTW in publications over Romanian and Albanian languages by a well known Romanian linguist and historian, Mihaescu Haralambie ("Influenta greceasca asupra limbi i romane" published in 1966; "Les elements latins de la langue albanaise" RESEE 1966/1-2; "La langue latine dans le sud de l"Europe" Bucuresti-Paris 1978; "Linguistika dhe etnogjeneza e Shqiptareve" SF 1982/3) he declares Albanian language as Illyrian and the correspondences of isogloses (in Albanian and Romanian language) as a substractum of an old Balkan language, derivating from old i.e. (you should remember also that anyway, Illyrians were neighbours with Dacians) I can not see these books or these claims in Dacian language article. I am not speaking about other authors who contradicted this theory, since its begining. I will provide you further details in a further article which will be long I think. I don't know exactly the date (unfortunatly as I have said before I have to work also:) but it will be soon. For the moment just remember those genetic studies and their results (mediterranean populations especially). Aigest (talk) 13:23, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Thracians were living side by side with Greeks for millenia.They were related whilst there was little relation with illyrian but albanians mixed with Greeks from 1000 AD to today for sure.Megistias (talk) 13:26, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Buddy, you seem to not understand the difference between genetic code, aleles and haplogroups. If I were in your place I would have read some similiar stuff to fully understand those studies. You seem to not understand even the term mediterranean. Does it mean something to you? Just check over web Meiterranean populations + genetic research and see the results by yourself (after you finish some reading about genetics). As for simple contribute to your knowledge on genetics I might say that "Even the mixture of the population happens that doesn't mean that the results should be as closed such as ALBANIANS and GREEKS, without forgeting Sardinians". So .... what? Albanians have assimilated genetically Greeks and Sardinians!!! Sardinians are Italian speaking Albanians, while Greeks are Albanians who speak Greek (seriosly no irony of your descendance)!! Stop neglecting the evidence, couse your words don't stand. Read some more on genetics, I know it's quite new as stuff, but I think newest sources should be mentioned in Wiki.Aigest (talk) 13:52, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

There are no nationalities in paleolithic groups but in your nationalism they obviously exist.Megistias (talk) 14:11, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Exactly that was my point (also the research point:)). Albanians, Greeks and Sardinians are old Mediterranean goups. This excludes Albanians from being to that Dacian territory you say and the theory of Dacian descendance falls down, because the results should have been diverse eitherwise. Greek were to be similiar to Sardinians while Albanians should have been very different. Thank you, at last you got it. Aigest (talk) 14:22, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Your point as you wrote above is that greeks are albaniansThey mixed for a millenia and you assume that they wouldnt have similarities.....Megistias (talk) 14:34, 6 December 2007 (UTC) "Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics."Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Alberto Piazza and Neil Risch Megistias (talk) 14:40, 6 December 2007 (UTC) Oh I thought you got it:( Once more time..... The population of Sardinia, Albania and Greece showed those specific marks, which were not shown in other populations. This shows their existence and descendance from old mediterranean groups. If the Albanians were to arrived later on these territories (like Croats for example who assimilated the Dalmatians) they should have been different genetically on those marks (like Croats). But he results of both studies puted them (Albanian, Greeks, Sardinians) together. It was not my point that Greeks are Albanians, nor that the Sardinians are Albanians. My point is that the today ALBANIANS, GREEKS, SARDINIANS descend from old mediterranean goups. For more info on this topic run those names (Albanian, Greeks, Sardinians) and genetic research over the web, then you can understand what I am saying. BTW don't try to push it to nationalism. I have never done it (never called you greek nationalist) and I would appreciate if you stop using those words when you are talking to me. Just accept or comment the results of those studies. Aigest (talk) 14:55, 6 December 2007 (UTC) This is what you write above"while Greeks are Albanians who speak Greek (seriosly no irony of your descendance)!! "Megistias (talk) 14:57, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * you wrote before "Albanians and Greeks mixed greatly" but you forgot the fact that there were quite similar AND the Albanians in Albania had those marks without Greek mixture, which means that the Albanians had the original and Greek result is a copy of it. Please try to understand that this WAS NOT my point (READ ABOVE). But this came as a result of your words and I tried to prove that was not true (such argument as you used, is used by Albanian extremists). Of course was a mixture (I personally think Arvanit are Albanians, but that is another story), but the study was not on that marks. BTW there were not single markers on those studies, look at the head of the article quote "95 protein markers were observed". Aigest (talk) 15:10, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Guys, can you please relax a bit? Let us get some points straight. Genetic studies only show if people are related genetically, they do not show if they have the same language. So Greeks and (modern) Albanians having the same genes does not prove that Albanians are Illyrians. It only proves that people whom we call Albanians todays are largely of local descent. However, it does not mean that their ancestors spoke Albanian. The same genetic studies would surely show that Welsh people and French are very close, however we all know that Latin was brought very late to Gaul. Thus, even if we think that Albanians (modern ones) used to be basically Greek 1500 years ago it does not prove that the language called Albanian was not "imported" about 1000AD by Dacian incomers. Similar example from northern Europe. Lithuanians and Belorussians are also identical on genetic level, however Belorussians speak Slavic language. We KNOW from archaeology that modern Belarus was settled by Baltic people (like modern Lithuania or Latvia), but in 5AD Slavs came and assimilated local people. The quantity of people (incomers) was not too big, they didn't alter genes greatly, they even failed to introduce Slavic culture (house building habits, agricultural tools etc), they just brought language, nothing else. So coming back to Albanians. If we presume they used to be Greeks, which converted to Dacian language about 1000AD - this genetic study cannot reject such hypothesis. And anyway Illyrians lived in modern day Croatia and Hercegovina, not in small plot like modern Albania - so where are close links between Albanians and Croats? If there are none - then we know for sure that on genetic level Albanians are not Illyrians, but again it does not prove that Albanian language is not descending from Illyrian - for that genetic studies are of no help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.241.200.14 (talk) 15:14, 6 December 2007 (UTC) You write "while Greeks are Albanians who speak Greek (seriosly no irony of your descendance)!! .Everyone can read and you also write this!! "the Albanians had the original and Greek result is a copy of it".Are you kidding me!?I doesnt get more nationalistic than this.You cant be serious.Everyone can read here.Megistias (talk) 15:25, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * My point was genetic studies showed that the actual people of Albania "are largely of local descend" (also Sardinians and Greeks). Also I said that this is a fact that links genetically the actual population of Albania with that of the Illyrians. As for the language I said I will bring more evidences on the language later. The first was a genetic prove and that's it. As for the Illyrians you should remember the Kingdom of Illyria which had the capital in Scodra and extended up to north of Epir (pretty much the majority of today's Albania. The Kingdom of Illyria was the most advance form of governing created by Illyrians, economically and militarily. The other Illyrian tribes on the North were not as organised as southern Illyrians. They didn't create a stabile form of governing whatsoever but each tribe minded its own business (this can be on of the facts why they were totally romanised). While Illyrians on the south (thanks even to Greek colonies Durrachium, Apolonia) were more developed economically and militarily, a fact that if it was not for the Roman invasion would have leaded to an Illyrian nation. As for the Croatian invasion you have other studies which show some Illyrian ancestry (although in small numbers), but you should remember the facts that Northern Illyria as a frontier was spoiled many times before Slavs moved in (Huns, Goths, Vandals etc. even Slavs partecipated for two centuries on those attacks before they definitly settled there) resulting in almost a desert country and this can be seen in Romanian and Byzantine chronicles. These reduced the number of the population and their genetic marks to the point that today only small marks show an Illyrian ancestry, while in the South these attacks were less in numbers compared to the North and also there were important administrative regions ("Via Egnatea" which linked both capitals Rome and Constaninople is an example) and was more defended by the Empire. It is not a coincidence that Albanians (if they were to be descendants of Illyrians) defended and developed their identity in Southern Illyria. Anyway, you should have big numbers (Slavs into Balkan for example) to assimilate a population otherwise the new population could not assimilate the existing one (Bulgarians for example). It would have been strange to think that Albanians were so small in numbers that they didn't left a single genetic mark (today Albanians, Greeks and Sardinians are correlated and differ from ohters), but they left the language and the customs!!!! To whom??? We can see that the population of Albania is almost similiar to Greeks or Sardinians on those genetic marks, which means that in the time of "assimilation" these marks were the same, which means that the population on those territories was the old population. Now think..old population which have seen with own eyes all civilisations, Greek, Rome, Byzantine and barbarian invasions and was not assimilated (numbers tell it)....was assimilated by a bunch of people not mentioned by anyone:))) Common guys... this is very simple it doesn't need to be a genious (and is a strong argument BTW). But like I said above, I WILL BRING LINGUISTIC EVIDENCES LATER. Right now I have to work, unfortunately:) Aigest (talk) 16:10, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

For Megistias...I didn't want to offend you, If I have done so I deeply apologise. But the argument you used is used by Albanian extremists. Please try to understand. Once more time sorry if I offended you.Aigest (talk) 16:10, 6 December 2007 (UTC) Aigest - you write contradictory things - Also I said that this is a fact that links genetically the actual population of Albania with that of the Illyrians. - is a pure non-sense. Greeks are not Illyrians, and Illyrians are not Greek. So if Albanians are indistinguishable from Greek on genetic level it is rather obvious that Albanians cannot be descendants of Illyrians, but they are rather descendants of ancient Greeks that have switched their language. Do you understand that?
 * My point is those marks show "old mediterranean groups" these means that the traits of that group were preserved in those populations. these traits were not preserved elsewhere in the Balkans. Now in territory of actual republic of Albania, was Illyrian kingdom. Those markers show a continuity in population, which means Paleolit-Neolit-PreIllyrian-Illyrian to today Albanian population without interruptions from other populations which should have left their genetic mark. The same case is with Greeks which means Paleolit-Neolit-PreHelens-Helens to todays Greeks, so no interruption. Once more time in actual territory of Albania was kingdom of Illyria and Illyrians that we know for sure, so this is the linking. If it was something else XXX for example I would say the linking is from XXX population. Was I clear? Sorry guys but I have to go. See you tomorrow. Aigest (talk) 16:39, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Illyrians had no relation with Greeks.They came late in the Balkans(1000-1300bc) whilst Greeks and Thracians were already there.So you cant be illyrian.If you were you would have similar genes with the rest of Ancient Illyria like croatia and the such.Megistias (talk) 16:43, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Well now I must interfere since many uncorrect statements are written above. Mediterranean people and genetics - 2 haplotypes are in question J and E. Especially E. J haplogroup originated somewhere in India, while E origins were in Eastern Africa. Both groups were populating Europe especially Mediterranean during Neolithic (Neolithic farmers, agriculture). However in that moment Europe was already settled by Paleolithic I haplogroup and R1b. Concerning the Balkans I1b1 haplotype (a subgroup of I) is autochtonuous in the area of present Croatia and Herzegovina. Also I1b1 is actually group which can be identified as proto-Illyrian, which means that on that genetical basis Illyrian identity can be built. This group is not presumed to be Mediterranean, in fact it's older. Greek and Albanian ethnogenesis falls into Mediterranean gene pool. What do we know about Illyrian political units? Just what was written by Greek and Roman writters, since there were no Illyrian written sources. And what did these writers actually know about the Western Balkans? They thought that the Black Sea and Adriatic Sea are connected by rivers!!! All people settled there were Illyrians for them and that's all. We know about Illyria as well organised state because that state developed in the age of Greek and Roman writers. But don't forget that 500 years before Illyria there was some Liburnia. Liburnians were the rulers of all Adriatic sea from 9th to 6th century BC! Practically all naval tradition and knowledge in the Adriatic area descended from them. But there were no Greek writers to report about it. The name of Adriatic is the most possibly Liburnian or older but carried by them to Antique. Zenanarh (talk) 17:42, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Aigest, no offence, but some of your sweeping statements are outright ridiculous. You say - Those markers show a continuity in population, which means Paleolit-Neolit-PreIllyrian-Illyrian to today Albanian population without interruptions from other populations . How can you insist on something like this? Do you have incidental blood sample of some Illyrian? We have no Illyrian DNA test, so bragging about "continuity in population" just is it - bragging. No proofs, no substance, just pure water fiction.
 * Zenanarh - I want to clarify things. So, did I understand you correctly that "proto-Illyrians" (carriers of I haplogroup) were Paleolithic inhabitants of the Balkans? Whereas "proto-Greeks" apparently came later? In that sense people whom you call "proto-Illyrians" are not even Indo-Europeans, because ancestors of the Greeks were one of the first to migrate from IE homeland westwards (probably together with Phrygians and Armenians). In that case those "proto-Illyrians" are not exactly direct ancestors (certainly not by the language or culture) of later-found Illyrians. They might be those elusive Pelasgians akin to Etruscians in Italy or Basques in Spain, .i. pre-Indo-European population of Europe. People whom we call "Illyrians" were clearly Indo-Europeans, there are several unmissable core elements in their names, like -teuta ("a nation", "a tribe", compare with "Deut-sch" or "Teut-onic") which make it rather unlikely that they could be non-Indo-European. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.60.54.188 (talk) 22:02, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

illyrians came at 1000-1300 bc in the area of the we know later as ilyrian and belonged to the haalstast culture.They broke away from protoceltic populations.precursors of illyrians].Megistias (talk) 22:14, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Hallstadt is pretty clear to me, but as a scholar of Celtic language I would not believe that Illyrians could be Celts. -p- is very much intact, and loss of *p is defining feature of all Celts. Illyrians called Zeus "Deipaturos" which consists of *dei(vos) - a god and *pater - a father. In all Celtic languages "father" has become some variation of "atir", e.g. without *p, so Illyrians could not possibly be Celts. Sorry —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.60.54.188 (talk) 22:30, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I know but they belonged to the halstaat culture and at least in most aspects except language they resembled celts.Megistias (talk) 23:11, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Celts made a lot of mess when they crossed the Alps but they were not parental to Illyrians. Their archeological material is clearly different. Languages are changing. Zenanarh (talk) 23:50, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Polybius is quoted correct me if i m wrong.illyrians and celts.When i see early celtic stuff like haalstat and illyrian items they are the same.I am not saying they were celts but they did look like them up to an eraMegistias (talk) 00:36, 7 December 2007 (UTC) It is me again. Ok, first a word of caution. Archaeological cultures and languages are not the same, so we have to be very careful - techniques and objects have been borrowed on massive scale in Europe, so to say that Illyrians were Celts is a bit of stretch of imagination. Anyway - in the book I quoted below it is written (sorry don't have the book now, quoting from the memory): "Illyrians used to be defined as all non-Celtic nations to the west of Thrace and north of Epyrus [...] However, toponomastical and archaeological data show that there was no unity among peoples west of Thrace, at least three different cultures are identified and only one of them can be deem "Illyrian" in a strict sense". While not discussing the point of view as such, I draw your attention to the fact that there were Celts in Illyria - so be careful about attributing Hallstatt. Still, early Iron Age Cultures in Europe are not strictly identifiable with separate nations. According to Sedov ("Ethnogenesis of Slavs") the model of separating of nations in Europe was not of big bang, but rather splitting away of nation by nation while the remnants still constituted "Ancient Europeans", .i. first Germans split, then Italic, later Celts and still later Slavs.
 * Look guys....according to archeological materials who were found on Illyrian territory (I am not speaking of Greece territory, because I had to read more on that stuff) we can see that there is not a brutal interruption of the culture. Such prehistoric culture in Albanian territory we can see in sites like Konispol (Sarande), Dunavec I,II & Cakran (Ballsh) Vlush (Skrapar), Maliq I,II,III(Korce), Vashtemi, Kolsh, Burim, Blaz I&II(Mat), Rudnik I,II,III (Kosovo)etc. There are two theories for the Illyrians. The first one links them with Hallstat culure and this was the old one. The other theory regards Illyrians as a population created on these territories and does not link them to Hallstat culture or Luzhice culture. They base this theory on the foundings on Maliq, Mat (both in Albania) and Glasinac (Bosnia). They say that archeological materials who were found there differences very clear the two cultures Hallstat-(Mat/Glasinac). Not only pottery and metals residues on this sites were different, but also the spiritual part which is fondamental in determining the population, was different. In these sites corpses were buried in tuma (hemispherical tombs), while in Panonia who clearly represents the other culture, corpses were burned and their ashes were put into jars (urna). So they declare that the process of the formation of the Illyrians was a continuous process from neolit to bronze to Illyrians. The supporters of this theory say that the newcomers (i.e populations with their language) were penetrating slowly on these territories and there was a slow mixture of the population while the elements of the old population were always more stronger than the newcomers (a linguistic example from the Albanian language which they connect to Illyrians is the vigesimal system, the only Balkanic language which conservates it). They see two main groups of Illyrians, the north group which was shows an inclination to Central Europe but without strong links, while the Southern group was more oriented to Egean world and kept close contacts with that world. I see that I have to bring another long article on archeology over this topic, but it will come after linguistic article which I have promised before. But please guys read some stuff on those names (archeological sites and preferably by the archeologists who have discovered them and not some guy that makes a resume standing on a table) I mentioned above, so if you had to make questions there should be on the topic and with serious arguments. Bests Aigest (talk) 09:14, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

As for the unsigned comment.... may be after you read the above paragraph, you can understand my talking. Those marks remained in the population THEY ARE NOT EXTINCT and remain in significant numbers on those territories (Albania, Sardinia, Greece) which means that any later population on those territories was inserted slowly and IN SMALL NUMBERS and the elements of the old population remained strong on that area. Elsewhere these marks WERE EXTINCT or greatly DIMINISHED, which means that the later populations were in big numbers and these influenced the genetic. Was I clear?Aigest (talk) 10:11, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Aigest, Aigest - you can manage to confuse five things in a row. we can see that there is not a brutal interruption of the culture Nowhere in Europe is found "brutal interruption of the culture" unless local population has been totally slaughtered by invaders. So what you said is a truism that applies to any place in Europe. while in Panonia who clearly represents the other culture, corpses were burned and their ashes were put into jars (urna). - yes, because Pannonia was inhabited by the Slavs before invasion of Huns and Magyars, so clearly this practice as typically Slavic can have no relation to Illyrians whatsoever.  a linguistic example from the Albanian language which they connect to Illyrians is the vigesimal system, the only Balkanic language which conservates it  Vigesimal system is clearly associated with Celts in Europe, so again it is not clear what you are trying to prove here. there should be on the topic and with serious arguments Serious arguments are following - there are proto-Albanian substratum in Romanian (left over from the Dacians) and there are many common things between Messapians and Illyrians (like ceramic, metalworks, personal names). What do you have to say on these two points? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.241.200.14 (talk) 09:45, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

As for Panonia what??? Do you know the territory of Panonia [] and their population? Slavs before Celts??? Are you sure?? Aigest (talk) 10:11, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Vigesimal system in Celtic
I saw that theory (vigesimal) that was in Wiki but you should understand 1. it's not widely accepted and many have criticised it. 2nd Many populations which had not to do with Celts used it. 3rd Basque language is not i.e. language and the relations between them and celts are to be clarified (why germans don't used it? but it remained on france in old Gallic region?) 4th It could have been coexisted in Basque population and Celts populations indipendently, as it could have existed in other populations of that time. 4th vigesimal system is older than decimal system (it contains the fingers of the hands and foots )which means that the old populations have used it BEFORE decimal system and this is related to the facts that I have mentioned about formation of Illyrians. As for the "brutal interruption" this has happened in history. May be the term I used was "brutal:)" but the idea is that there is not a change in that culture to show the change in population of that territory and this leaded to their conclusions.
 * Aigest - again you write some crap - "criticised" - so what? All scientific hypothesis are criticised that is their nature. "Many peoples used it which had not to do with Celts" - can you name any? "Basques" - they lived together with Celtiberians, so in this particular case Celtic influence is obvious. "Germans" - why would Germans use it? "Vigesimal system is older" - no it is not. Older system is decimal, vigesimal system developed later, at least among Indo-Europeans, and anyway it is related to the climate, so nations living up the north and having shoes could not have used it for obvious reasons.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.241.200.14 (talk) 11:13, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Read the article [] please. I can quote a paragraph "According to Menninger, the vigesimal system originated with the Normans and spread through them to Western Europe, the evidence being that Celtic languages often use vigesimal counting systems. Others believe that this theory is unlikely, however". Now what did Normans had to do with Illyrians and Georgians ( by the way also Georgia uses that system)????. The presence of this system in old populations such as Basques and their original absence (according even to the theory above) in i.e. groups (Latin, Germanic, Slav) means that the older populations of Europe could have used this system, before the arrival of these populations. If you see the above explainations about a continuity in Illyrian soil you will understand the connection. Aigest (talk) 12:03, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

And decimal is older because they had shoes:)???!!!! With this kind of argument I can say that the fingers of the foots were "invented:)" before the shoes:) so Vigesimal system is older:). Just read some more on this topic please. Aigest (talk) 12:10, 7 December 2007 (UTC) The link to the article you provided mentions albanians and others but not illyriansMegistias (talk) 12:26, 7 December 2007 (UTC) So Menninger thinks that vigesimal system was invented by Normans and the proof is its usage by Celts? Boy, that is funny. So why don't Icelanders - the most pure remnants of Normans don't use vigesimal system? Where is the logic? Vigesimal system is absent from Latin? Do you know any Latin? Aigest - GET THE FACTS first, and then continue the discussion.
 * I see your point, but you also have to understand mine (connections). Yeah sure BUT, the time when Normans contacted Albanians was in 1272 in Durres (Durrachium). They conquered the city and they declared Charles as "King of Albania", but he never stayed in Albania and so his barons and no Norman population was inserted in territory, which was hold by Albanian vasals. Anyway, BEFORE (example a big uprising in 1257) this date we can see albanians in Greece. They still use vigesimal system. So any link to the Normans of this system is out of discussion. And for anonymous ... Celts didn't had to do with Germans???!!!What was that??!! Read the articles over celts please.

Don't try to mix it. Latin language does not have vigesimal system. Look at the original Latin and then to Romanian which is (vulgar Latin) more closer than French. Also Italians,the Portugese or even Spaniards don't use it so their use only by French in the latin languages is to be attributted to smth else. It WAS NOT BORN IN LATIN. Also IT WAS NOT BORN IN GERMAN (germans don't use it) And IT WAS NOT BORN IN SLAVS. PLEASE DON'T WASTE MY TIME WITH SUCH QUESTIONS (VIGESIMAL IS LATIN????!!!) READ BEFORE ASKING!!! Aigest (talk) 13:03, 7 December 2007 (UTC) BTW even by the theory of Theo Vennemann [](which is also disputed see [] this system was used mainly in France region and Britain isles not spreading further, he does not say which was the system in other regions and from what we can see from the tribes who were in that area to their descendants this system is unknown (and don't try to put the blame on Latinisation because the French language is the most latinised on Celtic area and still has that system). ONCE MORE READ BEFORE ASKING.Aigest (talk) 13:20, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry I forgot. In Latin forty is Quadragesima. It seems pretty vigesimal to me:) Kidding:). PLEASE READ BEFORE ASKING. Aigest (talk) 13:29, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

It seems Aigest is just interested in talking to himself. Why on earth you are so fixed on Normans??? Did I EVER say I believe Normans invented vigesimal system? It was me who said that such conjecture is absurd because Germanic nations don't use vigesimal sistem. So what relevance has the fact when NORMANS came to Albania if they never used vigesimal system in the first place. And whom do you call "Normans"? People from Scandinavia who came to France, adopted French language WITH vigesimal system or Norseman - the Vikings? If you talking about French ones - then you are a double fool, because vigesimal system in French is clearly inhereted from the Gauls - the Celts and has nothing to do with Normans who came to France in only 8th-9th century AD.
 * Before you talk even more non-sense on Latin which you presumably DON'T KNOW - find in the dictionary how is 18 and 19 in Latin - THEN we can continue on the issue if there "was" or not vigesimal system in Latin. And last point - try reading some sources beyond Wikipedia, because if this encyclopaedia has only references to info already there - it will go to nowhere.

First I am not fixed with Normans (read above I have mentioned the two theories) but it was a prior question by Megistias and I had the responsability to answer 2nd Are you insinuating that Vigesimal system was born in Latin Language???!!! If this is the case I would be very interested in your thesis. Is original research? Last time I checked Latin languages this was not the case. BTW the last one ... I made those references to Wiki to summarize the claims. In that article you have further references if you want to read more. Aigest (talk) 13:46, 7 December 2007 (UTC) Again you have hijacked the discussion. Let us return where we started. I said that vigesimal system is a Celtic invention - then you started writing some bullshit on Normans and when they came to Albania. So let's return to the beginning. Do you agree that vigesimal system was invented by Celts or not? And furthermore you stated that "they connected Albanian language to Illyrian based on the fact that it is the only Balkan language to preserve vigesimal system". DO WE HAVE ANY ILLYRIAN NUMBERS LEFT that you make such bold statements? Do we know ANYTHING about the counting system of Illyrians at all???
 * Don't try to divert the subject. If you have READ my above comments, the topic was the preservation of old populations genetic marks in (Albanian, Greece, Sardinian) population. And the archeologist after their findings maintained the theory of a formation of that nation (Illyrians) mainly based on native population of that territory. As also they linked Albanians with Illyrians this fact came to the surface. The base twenty (vigesimal) system is believed to have been older and in use by older populations of Europe. Their remark was that as the Basques who have preserved (keeping their language, customs; also I might add genetic marks) it even the people who habitated Illyrian soil preserved it (keeping their language, customs; also I might add genetic marks). I know that 18-19 stuff but linguists say that vigesimal system was not born in Latin language and the presence in old Latin was to be attributed to oldest populations of that territory (does it ring a bell?). They didn't connect both populations (Albanians and Illyrians) on that vigesimal fact!! They were archeologists. They connected older populations of that area to Illyrians. The further excavations showed them the other connection (Albanians and Illyrians). The vigesimal point was not the base of their theory!!! This was a very small fact I presented to you to describe the preservation of older traits in present population of that area. And don't try to put it on other direction. My point was the results of genetic and archeological searches. If you have the kindness to read above I have promissed to bring a more detailed article over linguistics and archeology. Please don't waste my time on out of the topic questions. Aigest (talk) 14:55, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, so again you are spreading misinformation. Just two quotes from your post: I know that 18-19 stuff but linguists say that vigesimal system was not born in Latin language  - so didn't I say that vigesimal system is CELTIC, read those letters C-E-L-T-IC, not Latin! Did I ever say it was Latin invention? And again why are you trying to prove things nobody has ever tried to deny? But read your own posts - you said there was NO vigesimal system in Latin, and even that condescending "quadragesima" - what for? And now you are confronted with evidence there WAS vigesimal system after all and you backtrack. Second quote: The vigesimal point was not the base of their theory!!! Again you talk about vigesimal system of Illyrians as if it was fact! IT IS NOT. We do not know which system Illyrians used, so please stop referring to their counting system. They could have used decimal system as well - so would that prove that Illyrians and Albanians are not related?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.241.200.14 (talk) 15:25, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

ONCE MORE TIME. I was writting the answer to Megistias and I DID NOT SAW your comment over Normans (I personally think it's not strongly based anyway).'' But I can see that you don't want to understand. The preservation of traits of older populations READ ABOVE for the topic. The fact of vigesimal was mentioned AFTER their findings, as a small example of  preservation of older traits in actual population of Albania. Once more time and this is the last because you are getting out of the topic. Vigesimal system in Europe was used by older populations before i.e populations. Also you say Celtic system?? Does they have the exclusivity? Why not Basques? Why not Georgians? Why not pre-indoeuropean (I am not mentioning Maya because is off topic:))?? The baseline is vigesimal system was in use in older populations of Europe, as for his origin none is sure. Their preservation to Albanians is a fact. Talking to preservation (this was the topic) this fact was mentioned. Don't run out of the topic. If you have comments for the topic  preservation of older traits and archeological findings I mentioned aboce please put them forward. I am wasting my time with an off-topic issue. This brings nowhere. That's all for vigesimal.Aigest (talk) 15:52, 7 December 2007 (UTC) Somebody is clearly unable to think logically over here. First, you boasted "Albanians have preserved Illyrian vigesimal system", then proved to have said rubbish you continue the same jibberish - a lot of flashy statements with NO EVIDENCE. The preservation of traits of older populations - what that is supposed to mean? Whom do we have left from "older population" in Europe now? Just Basques - a small tribe of Acquitani not covering even 1% of territory of Europe. What about Etruscans, Pelasgians, what about all those tribes we have no idea about, just because they disappeared before Greek and Latin writers could describe them? So how the hell you know that the rest of "older population" was counting? How do you know vigesimal system is older? Who said that? Just for your education, the analysis of primitive tribes has shown that they calculate in systems where the highest numeral is usually SEVEN and anything beyond 7 is counted as MANY. Small children also count in similar numbers. Children even of school entering age struggle with teen-numbers, although counting till 10 is not a big problem. Thus, it is obvious from development perspective that people should have first mastered DECIMAL system because its base is SMALLER and easier to understand than TWENTY. Furthermore, it appears that medieval Danish has also developed vigesimal system, although we surely know that Old Germanic had decimal system. Weighing all this evidence it is rather OBVIOUS that vigesimal system is INNOVATION which appeared later, replacing previous decimal system (like in Danish example). Latin is a prime example of shifting to vigesimal system in the offing. Although system remains very much decimal there are unmistakable elements of vigesimal system. Next time before you type anything - THINK if it makes sense 78.60.54.188 (talk) 17:23, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I have promised not to return to this off topic issue, but I had to clarify this, because I see a misunderstandig from the others. My words were quote "the elements of the old population were always more stronger than the newcomers (a linguistic example from the Albanian language which they connect to Illyrians is the vigesimal system, the only Balkanic language which conservates it)" . I was not saying that the Illyrians used vigesimal system. I was saying that the Albanian language, has this system. If you see my topic and further explainations you will understand this. That connection to Illyrians is not based on that. In that text maybe a comma is needed or other brackets (they connect it with Illyrians). But I think I was clear about my topic. Anyway another issue to be clarified is that of "oldest" system. I was not saying that vigesimal was invented before decimal BUT, it was present in the older populations of Europe, before the new i.e. tribes arrival (see Basques and Celts discussion above).

FACTS 1.Origins of vigesimal are not clear. 2.It was in use in Europe from older populations(SEE ABOVE THE DISCUSSIONS). 3.It is present in Albanian Language (the only on the Balkan area).  From that my remark above ("traits of older populations"), please do not put in my mouth things that I have not said and that is the end of it. Aigest (talk) 11:32, 10 December 2007 (UTC) Illyrians didn't use vigesimal system.Megistias (talk) 11:56, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * How do you know it?! New inscriptions? None could say it, either it was decimal or vigesimal. Aigest (talk) 13:06, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

If we dont then you cant just imagine one cause it fits........ All i see in talk pages is the desperate attempts from albanians to prove that they are either Illyrians or incorporate even more ancient people of the area in Albanian nationalism.Megistias (talk) 13:15, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I wasn't imaging anything. You seem to not understand my WRITTEN COMMENTS. If you have anything to say about that facts above, it's ok, otherwise it's not relevant to that topic (older traits). Also don't try to push it into nationalistic agenda. One might say that "The other side of the story is that there are desperate attempts by Greeks and Serbs (see political situation on the Balkans), not to connect Albanians with Illyrians", but I am not saying it. Please stick to above topic and arguments, please. Aigest (talk) 13:30, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Greeks and Thracians were much older than illyrians and you seem to say that there is a 50% chance for illyrian to have been vigesimal and connect it with albanians.Megistias (talk) 17:36, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Why? For your info they belong to two different groups, Thracian language to Satem while Greek to Centum. This means that they were in different places in prehistory and their arrival in Balkan area should have been in different times. As for Illyrians, they are not connected to Hallstatt culture anymore (see discussions above), so their presence is older than thought by those who maintain that thesis. Aigest (talk) 07:41, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Neutral secondary sources on Illyrian linguistics
We need neutral secondary sources on Illyrian linguistics..Illyrian linguistics sources from non-balkan modern scientists so political issues wont be the cause for either disqualification and we will be able to see into that matter clearly.Lets stay in the illyrian language alone, discover data than relate it if it can be with modern languages if possibleMegistias 16:05, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
 * If I may - a quote from Benjamin W. Fortson "Indo-European Language and Culture" (American, very much ambivalent about Balkan politics):
 * "Two hypothesis about Illyrian's connection to other languages are widely held: that Illyrian is the same as or closely related to Messapic (see below), and that Illyrian is the ancestor of Albanian. The first hypothesis is based on close cultural connections between the Messapians and Illyrians, and on certain similarities  between some linguistic elements. The second hypothesis has very little, if any linguistic support; proponents point out that the word Albanoí is first attested (in the Geography of Ptolemy) as the name of an Illyrian tribe. One glossed word that has been compared with Albanian is rhinos 'fog' (cp. Old Geg ren 'cloud', modern rê), but that alone does not prove the case. The relationship to Messapic does not help, for the Messapic inscriptions evince no obvious similarities to Albanian." [Here I add myself - we have only handful of glosses and names left from Illyrian, so it is difficult to prove or disprove anything, but we have 300 inscriptions from Messapic - so it is much more difficult to invent stories for it]
 * On the matter of Messapic the same book writes: "Messapic is known from close to 300 inscriptions from southeastern Italy in Calabria and Apulia and dating from the sixth tp the first centuries BC. The ancient people known as Messapii are linked by ancient historians with Illyria, across the Adriatic Sea; the linkage is borne out archeologically by similarities between Illyrian and Messapic metalwork and ceramics, and by personal names that appear in both locations - Pretty clear case to me

As for the linguistic arguments connecting Illyrians and Albanians, I have said that I will bring an article soon. It will be pretty long I think. I wish I could have done it earlier but I have to work also. For the genetic arguments see above chapter. Aigest (talk) 11:42, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Names
About some of the Illyrian names mentioned in the article(Drita,Besnik etc),could somebody provide the sources which led to the conclusion that these names were indeed illyrian?Amenifus (talk) 07:29, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * With no source they must be removed.Megistias (talk) 09:46, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


 * People have been indiscriminately adding names used by present day Albanians or Serbs etc. . I removed the dubious additions. The original list in the article contained only names identified as Illyrian in John Wilkes' The Illyrians, 1992, Blackwell Books, a common source on the subject. Lisa the Sociopath (talk) 22:26, 8 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Ha ha, you fellows are a trip. Sokol is an Illyrian name, the Slavic word for falcon? Sure buddy. The word is even in my Slovak dictionary. You Serbs and Albanians or whatever ethnicity you are---you guys are making yourselves look stupid and closed-minded when you add names like that. The list is for Illyrian names meaning the ancient ethnicity, language, etc., not any name used by the ethnicities now living in the region. That is like listing "Bill" as a Native American name. No offense to Bill or Sokol ;) Even if Albanian is a modern Illyrian language, this has not been proven and Neutral Point of View and no Original Research means only names considered to be of Illyrian provenance by an academic source can be added to the list in this article. No offense but I'm trying to create a scholarly article. Lisa the Sociopath (talk) 06:15, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I would appreciate it if in the not-so-distant future you weren't too quick about labeling certain ethnicities and ethnic groups as stupid,as it may refer to a larger community and people might feel offended.Amenifus (talk) 12:05, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Don't take what I wrote out of context. If a nasty remark or observation on my part will get people to edit more wisely, then I am satisfied. Lisa the Sociopath (talk) 20:08, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Also: recheck "Sidrita" and "skender".Shouldn't Bardhyllis and Hyllis be included?Or are they considered Thraco-illyrian?Amenifus (talk) 08:52, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Bardyllis was included in the original list that I placed (see history). I'll add it back if it's not already there. Hyllis should be included if it is described as Illyrian in ancient primary sources or academic secondary sources. The Thracian/Illyrian proximity does cause confusion sometimes. For example, there is the Illyrian name scenobardus or scenobarbus, and the Thracian or Dacian city scenopesis. Every name in the list will be double-checked. Lisa the Sociopath (talk) 09:38, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * ISBN 960-210-279-9 Miranda Vickers, The Albanians Chapter 9. "Albania Isolates itself" page 196 it is stated "From time to time the state gave out lists with pagan ,supposed Illyrian or newly constructed names that would be proper for the new generation of revolutionaries.(see also Also Logoreci "the Albanians" page 157.Megistias (talk) 09:10, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

What might your point be?This has nothing to do with name reconstruction in Albania.I was already aware of that and I'm not claiming the opposite.Amenifus (talk) 10:34, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Irrelevant talk here.Megistias (talk) 16:20, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Centum or Satem or...
Some editors have been asking about this and we haven't reached any consensus on how to treat this in the article because the academic references are not readily available for most people. That Wilkes book "The Illyrians" (1992) was a review of the field and gave the impression to me that the Centum view has more adherents, though there is still debate. Illyrian names such as Gentius etc. are the best proof for centum while the satem examples from what I remember are fewer (Osseriates being one?). In the case of Thracian and Dacian they are clearly satemized although you can still a find a Thracologist saying that the satemization in Thraco-Dacian may have come later (as in Albanian?). The actual nature of the satemization in Albanian is also being investigated (see Centum-Satem isogloss). Lisa the Sociopath (talk) 06:37, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Serge metais

 * Serge metais is an ecomomist and an amateur historian -by no means a historian or a linguist.He is an unreliable source.MetaisMegistias (talk) 12:14, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Bardyllis
In English when dealing with the Illyrian material the name is transliterated as Bardyllis, not bardhyllis. The dh letter combination does not occur in the original attestations which were in Latin or Greek. I understand that modern Albanians transcribe it as bardhyllis often, but that is incorrect. That is a reconstruction based on the unconfirmed etymology that links it to the Albanian word bardhë (white). Whenever you see Bardhyllis fix it to Bardyllis in English Wikipedia. Can anyone bring a primary source where it is attested as bardhyllis or a secondary academic source? Lisa the Sociopath (talk) 09:47, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Copy-paste of the original sourced list
This is the original list that I added in 2005 or 2006, each name described as Illyrian in Wilkes' The Illyrians, Blackwell Books, 1992:

Agirrus Agron Annaeus, Annaius Ballaios Bardyllis Bato Birkenna (daughter of the Illyrian king Bardyllis, and one of the wives of Pyrrhus) Blodus Boria Dasius Dazas Ditus Epicadus (attested only in lands adjacent to ancient Greece) Epicaris Epidius Genthena Gentius, Genthios Glaukias Glavus Grabos Kleitos Laedio Laiscus Madena Messor Monounios (Monunius) Mytilus (successor of Monounios) Pinnes (Pinnius, Pinneus) Plare(n)s Plator, Platoris (gen.) Pleuratus Posantio Pravaius Scerdis Skerdilaidas Tatta Temus Teuda Teuta Thana Vendes Verzo Zanatis Ziraeus

The following Illyrian names, all of which occur in inscriptions from the upper Neretva river valley near Konjic in Bosnia, are considered to derive from Celtic:

Boio Bricussa Iacus Mallaius Mascelio —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lisa the Sociopath (talk • contribs) 09:54, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

What about "Hyllis" or "Yllis"(first known king of Dardania)?I'm not sure if it was his real name or was just given to him after his death.Amenifus (talk) 10:41, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * In ancient sources I found Hyllos, a son of Herakles. I can't find a primary source that calls Hyllos an Illyrian, or an academic source. So far I have traced "Hyllis the Illyrian" only to dubious internet sites. A Wikipedia search for "Hyllis" brings up nothing besides a mention in Bardyllis which is probably info taken from a junk site. Lisa the Sociopath (talk) 10:47, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Searching here] brings up only the information contained in Hyllus (river). No Illyrian king. Maybe "Hyllis the first Illyrian king" is a modern concoction spread by dubious internet sites. Lisa the Sociopath (talk) 11:00, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

He's supposed to have died in 1225 BC,but I can't seem to find the actual proof just yet.I'll keep looking.Amenifus (talk) 11:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * There is the article Hyllus for the son of Herakles. No mention of illyrian king. Lisa the Sociopath (talk) 12:32, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * There is no 1225 bc hyllus illyrian king and no proof of it.it just went around on the net and an impossible thing to know of such a person in pffff 1225 bc...Megistias (talk) 17:39, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Megistias is obviously right about this one. There's no way on earth we could have reliable historical records about the name of some king in 1200 BC, let alone his exact year of death. None of the cultures in the area had written calendar records, let alone history or chronicle writing. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:55, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * What happened here it appears is that Illyrian lexical material is being given folk etymologies in modern times by Albanians and people trying to connect Albanian to Illyrian. There is a widespread folk etymology on the internet that interprets the Illyrian name Bardyllis as meaning "White Star", using the Albanian words bardhë (white) and yll ("star"). "White star" makes no sense and sounds hackneyed to me. I know of no reputable linguist or academic who supports the "white star" etymology of Bardyllis. "Hyllis" is a modern concoction it appears, supposed to mean "star" in Albanian and supposed to be the father of Bardyllis in some versions. It probably traces to one cranky fellow who wrote something on a website somewhere. Lisa the Sociopath (talk) 21:42, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You can see them spamming all of wiki with this stuff along with all the internet.Megistias (talk) 21:44, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

LOL Hyllis who died in 1225 BC was a father of Bardylis who died in 358 (359) BC!? Interesting... Zenanarh (talk) 22:12, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * He excersiced regularly and stayed away from fats.Hehe.Its spam.Megistias (talk) 22:15, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * No original research, but to me it seems much more likely Illyrian bard- derives from an older *ward-. See for example Ardiaei, also attested as Vardiaei (in Cicero) and Bardiaei (check Perseus Digital Library, etc.). There is also Bardarios (Vardar); Bardulos, an old Messapian name for modern Barletta. Maybe even Vardulia is connected, who knows. Anyway, no original research but I think Illyrian bard- is from an earlier *ward-. The Illyrian languages article already notes that the connection to the Albanian word is unlikely because the dh in bardhë is from an earlier z, in turn from an earlier g (<PIE *bher-g, "white", the unquestioned etymology of the Albanian word). The Romanian cognate is barză (stork, a white bird) still showing the older z sound. Lisa the Sociopath (talk) 23:04, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Here's a good article about barză/bardhë in Romanian . You don't have to read Romanian to understand the etymological tree there that shows the evolution of the word from PIE. In Aromanian bardzu means piebald (white with black splotches). Again z is older than the change to dz in Aromanian or dh in Albanian. In Illyrian times it should have been Barzyllis if Illyrian is to be considered as Proto-Albanian, and our Wikipedia article mentions the phonological discrepancy of the alleged Albanian etymology of Bardyllis. Lisa the Sociopath (talk) 23:13, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Anyway maybe a linguist will read this and get an idea. There is a PIE Root / lemma: w¸er-2 English meaning: "highland, high place, top, high". Maybe *ward- in Illyrian meant "high, tall, big". (*W)ardiaei, Vardiaei were "Highlanders". Vardar is the river that runs through Macedonia, "the Highland". Bardylis was "High, tall, big" either literally or figuratively. I like my idea more than the Albanian one. Anyway, just for people to read ;) Why would he be called "white"? was he albino? Lisa the Sociopath (talk) 23:53, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * In a Celtic language, Ard- means "high", from PIE *wer-. Lisa the Sociopath (talk) 23:55, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Now we know that 'Ulcinj' means 'Wolfs'. Still, the Macedonian (slavic) plural of 'wolfs' is the closest one to the original, it's -'Volci'. Cheers.24.86.127.209 (talk) 07:00, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

The albanian name for the city is ULQIN and not ULCINJ. If you are discussing albanian language use the proper spelling for it. Singular UJK (wolf) / Plural UJQ (wolfes). Thanks Jawohl (talk) 15:25, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Unsourced edit

 * Unsourced edit.....Megistias (talk) 15:34, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Someone revert these Megistias (talk) 15:52, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Someone clean it up.Megistias (talk) 17:15, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * another one Megistias (talk) 18:14, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Someone stop this guy we dont  write the article so he can ruin it.Megistias (talk) 18:21, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Someone clean this up as well.Megistias (talk) 16:00, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Can someone please clean up the article?There is not point in refernecing good material if a load of imaginary stuff get in and stay.Megistias (talk) 16:35, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Illyrian/Celtic/Thracian names according to Wilkes



 * I have added Celtic and Thracian names but more Illyrian,Celtic and Thracian remain
 * Beshnik ,Madena,Senton,Venera Dont exist so please remove them
 * Titus is latin?
 * Page 74:"... Other names less well known but which may also originate in the area include Agirrus, Blodus, Boria, Glavus, Laedio, Laiscus, Mad- ' Alföldy 1964a, Katiéié 1964. ..."
 * Page 71:"... The names Daza, Dasius and Dazomenus have been connected with Das- menus in Pannonia and Dazos in southern Italy. The meaning of these plausible ..."
 * Page 80:"... Similarly Dasas/Dasius and Scenobarbus also occur among the Delmatae, and only the confined distribution of Liccaius indicates a distinctive Pannonian-Illyrian name...."
 * Page 82:"... The number of Illyrian names in that area, Genthena, Tatta, Dasius and Thana is small compared with the Celtic: Aioia, Andetia, Baeta, Bidna, Catta, Dussona, Enena,laca, Madusa, Matisa, Nindia, Sarnus, ..."
 * Page 85:"... Illyrian names in Dardanian territory include Andio, Andinus, Annus, Anna, Catulla (?), Cinna, Citto, Dasius (four examples)/Dassius (seven examples), Dicco, Epicadus,..."
 * Page 86:"... Katicié, for example, Andius/Andia, Andinus, Annus/Anna, Dasius and Plannius. Yet this leaves a number of Dardanian names with no parallel outside the area, including Ambia,Blicities, Bubita, ..."
 * Page 82:"... The number of Illyrian names in that area, Genthena, Tatta, Dasius and Thana is small compared with the Celtic: Aioia, Andetia, Baeta, Bidna, Catta, Dussona, Enena,laca, Madusa, Matisa, ..."
 * Page 74:"... Other names less well known but which may also originate in the area include Agirrus, Blodus, Boria, Glavus, Laedio, Laiscus, Mad- ' Alföldy 1964a, Katiéié 1964. ..."
 * Page 75:"... Zorata. A smaller group found in the area appear to originate from the central Dalmatian province: Bato, Dasius, Dazas, Ditus, Messor and Verzo. ..."
 * Page 74:"... and the processes of Romanization.' Typical names among the (1) `real Illyrians' according to Alföldy are: Annaeus/Annaeus, Epicadus, Epidius, Pinnes, Plare(n)s, Tatta,Temeia, Zanatis and Ziraeus. ..."
 * Page 84:"... Arvus, Belzeius, Cambrius, laritus, Lautus, Madussa and Argurianus (either Thracian or Celtic), the only name of south Illyrian origin is Plares. ..."
 * Page 75:"... Naming Illyrians 75 ena, Posantio, Pravaius, Scerdis, Teuda, Zorata. A smaller group found in the area appear to originate from the central Dalmatian province: Bato, ..."
 * Back Matter:"... Bibliography 311 -1974. `Sur la monnaie illyrienne au nom de Redon', 2A 24, 258-60. -1978. The Central Balkan Tribes in the Preroman Times: Trib- alli, Autariatae,Dardanians, Scordisci and Moesians, Amsterdam. ..."
 * Page 70:"... provinces are defined by the near exclusive distribution of some personal names. Among the southern `real' Illyrians these include Epicadus, Temus (a female name),Gentius (in Greek Genthios), Pinnes (or Pinnius), Monounios (recorded on coins), Grabaei (a tribal name), Verzo and ..."

Megistias (talk) 13:35, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Page 75:"... Naming Illyrians 75 ena, Posantio, Pravaius, Scerdis, Teuda, Zorata. A smaller group found in the area appear to originate from the central Dalmatian province: Bato,Dasius, Dazas, Ditus, ..."
 * Page 79:"... be a mixture, with some names typically Illyrian: Ditius, Ditueio, Ditus, Pantadienus, Plator, Platurius, Sestenius, Sestus, Tatonia, Teuda, Tritus and Vendes. ..."
 * Page 70:"... Epicadus, Temus (a female name), Gentius (in Greek Genthios), Pinnes (or Pinnius), Monounios (recorded on coins), Grabaei (a tribal name), Verzo and Zanatis. ..."Megistias (talk) 13:37, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Megistias (talk) 13:52, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Page 84:"... Apart from some names of Thracian origin, Bessus and Teres, and some Celtic names, Arvus, Belzeius, Cambrius, laritus, Lautus, Madussa and Argurianus (either Thracian or Celtic), the only name of south Illyrian origin is Plares. ..."

Cleaned up article
Just so everyone knows, I took some time towards tweaking all of the reference citations provided by Megistias. Moreover, I removed Beshnik, Madena, Senton, and Venera from the list of Illyrian names. Deucalionite (talk) 17:09, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Clausal?
I cannot find anything about "Clausal", an alleged Illyrian toponym. What is the source? I removed the following from the article, added by anonymous IP in July 2008:


 * "Clausal "river near Shkodër": IE *k^lew "to wash, rinse"; cf. Gk klýzein "to wash", L cluēre "to cleanse, purge", Welsh cir "clear, clean", OE hlūtor "clean, pure", ON hlér "sea", Lith šlúoti "to sweep" " —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alex contributing from L.A. (talk • contribs) 10:47, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Flibjib's alleged cognates
Here are some alleged cognates for the Thracian/Illyrian Sica, added by User:Flibjib8 [awhile ago http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Illyrian_languages&diff=next&oldid=160942821]. They were later correctly removed as dubious, although a number of his other edits were pretty good and he did add a lot of good cognates along the way and helped build the article. Alex contributing from L.A. (talk) 07:07, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Panillyrism
Can anybody help on Panillyrism theory, once famous and now abandoned. Aigest (talk) 14:48, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Pan-Illyrian theory originated at the beginning of the 20th century, before real developement of archaeology. Theory of Illyrians as creators of Urnfield culture was at first formulated by German archeologist Georg Kossinna (Mannus, 1912 and Herkunft der Germanen, 1920), followed by the archeologist Richard Pittioni anf philologist Julius Pokorny (1938). They claimed that creators of Bronze Age Urnfield culture were proto-Illyrians from whom Illyrians developed in Iron Age. Their expansion from Germany to northern Europe and to Pannonia and Balkans (during 1 century or more) resulted with other migrations as Dorian and Aegian. Hallstat theory resulted with massive pan-Illyrism ideas of other authors who have found Illyrians everywhere, any place where they were able to identify any kind of presence or influence of the Urnfield culture bearers.
 * By archeological evidences Urnfield culture was present in the Balkans in Pannonian planes, somewhat in central Bosnia and here and there to the west. Obviously it can be stated that the Urnfield culture bearers came into contact with native population of northern Balkans, mixed with them and contributed that way in process of "wider-Illyrian" ethnogenesis (not Illyrian proper), but nothing more. Many newer archeological investigations after developing of Hallstat theory has produced autochtonuous Illyrian theory, by which Illyrian culture was formed in the same place (Western Balkans) from older Bronze Age cultures. There was unbroken continuation of cultural developement between Bronze and Iron Age archeological material, therefore ethnical continuation too. According to A. Benac, Urnfield culture bearers and proto-Illyrians were different people. He acknowledged that Urnfield culture migration produced several of others in chain reaction, as Dorian, or from the Balkans across the Adriatic Sea, however it didn't essentially changed ethnical stability in the area. The same was said by P. Bosch-Gimpera, but according to him Hallstat culture bearers were somewhat involved in process of Illyrian ethnogenesis. According to A. Stipčević the most convincing theory was one given by Benac, but too simplified. He pointed to Liburnians and their pre-Indo-European and Mediterranean phases in developement as example that there was no equal processing of Illyrian origin in the different areas of the Western Balkans. Zenanarh (talk) 08:36, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I think we can divide the linguistic part Pokorny, Krahe etc from that of archeological part. The lingustic to be put in here and the linguistic and archeologic in Illyrians artiicle. What do you think?Aigest (talk) 08:43, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, this is the same story, archaeology resolved it. Linguistic part was not based on real linguistic evidences, but rather on idea that all pre-Indo-Europeans in Europe had been proto-Illyrians. So fairytale was finished by archaeology, it must be mentioned here, at least. Zenanarh (talk) 09:04, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I mean it began with an archeologist (Kossina) and ended with another (Benac). Linguist Pokorny just jumped into Kossina's train. Zenanarh (talk) 09:15, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Of course, but it had a great impact at that time especially regarding European hydronyms, not only Pokorny but especially Krahe. I have read something about the panillyrism as a teory supported by nazis as refuting the old presence of slavic people in Europe. I will try to trace it too. Aigest (talk) 09:43, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I added the article on Pan-Illyrism but it looks like it's a bit long, may be we can put it as a separate article and parts of it here. What do you think? Aigest (talk) 14:41, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Nice addition. It deserves a separate article. Only important moments here. ;) Zenanarh (talk) 07:55, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you;). I am wondering if we can trace any map or photo for this article and that of Illyrians? They both look prety ugly without any ilustration(even the existing map looks prety ugly:). Aigest (talk) 08:23, 30 April 2009 (UTC)


 * It's not only ugly, it's inaccurate. Take a look at my talk page, section "Illyrians", there are some maps still unfinished (progress in work). User:Hxseek and me were working on new maps, it stopped now for a while. Join us. Language map is probably the most problematic. We don't know these extinct languages really, so any suggestion presented by a map would be OR. We don't know how many languages/dialects were there; it's all in theoretical space in scolarship. Our main idea was to present what is known: ethnic distribution in a few groups: proper, Pannoni, others... Any suggestion is appreciated. Zenanarh (talk) 08:45, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, we can work on the material that is on the article itself (subarticle Illyrian dialects) with the two versions Alfoldy and Katicic so it is not OR but it means to have two different maps. So we can highlight the dilects area over the names of the tribes in two different maps. First one according to Alfoldy and second one to Katicic. For the discussed areas a stripped version would have been ok. As for the existing map there are some tribes missing (encheles for eg), and also the southern borders of Illyrians are incorrect. The Molosi were around Dodona which means further south. In the regions of Permet, Erseke and Korce there are clear sign of Illyrian tumulus and culture look. The illyrian Bylinoi were between Vlora, Fier and Tepelena etc. Anyway I am happy to collaborate, thanks for inviting:) now what do we need to finish those maps? Aigest (talk) 09:21, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Remind Hxseek who is a map-maker that we have some unfinished business. Contact him, write your suggestions (you can do it in the same place at my talk page or here). I agree about linguistic maps. Zenanarh (talk) 09:35, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I have almost forgotten about Illyrians. I have my fingers in a few too many pies. I have constructed this map which is in the Illyrians article, based on Andras Mocsy, a hungarian specialist on Pannonia. Naturally, it is a generalised map delineating the approximate territories of the so-called "Illyrian", "Thracian" languages, etc. Obviously, the picture is more complicated than that, given that that propper Illyrian, might have been different to dalmatian, Liburnian, Pannonian, etc. The question is: were these similar enough to be classed into an "Illyriod" superfamily ?

The other issue is tribes. It is complicated because it would be incorrect to construct one map depicting all the known tribes, becuase tribes came and went. Eg the Autariatae were decimated by the Celts in the 4th century BC, and were not subsequently mentioned. The Scordisci only formed in the 3rd century BC. Many more appear after Roman takeover becuase they were either politically subordinate to bigger tribes eg Breuci and Scordisci (and therefore not mentioned), or they were created by Romans themselves. Some in the south were hellenized, although our greek friends would have people belive they were "always Greek", LOL. So its hard to create a map which encompasses all this, lest we make multiple maps of different regions and different times Hxseek (talk) 11:06, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure about Pannonian tribes especially farther north. Their archaeologic and onomastic remnants point to a mix. Also in the South there were for eg the Illyrian encheleys (Bardyllis dinasty) around Prespa and Ohrid lake, Bylinoi in Mallakaster (look above for other etc). I think that the best way of not confonding people is to present especially in the confinant borders the existing tribes, (for ex Macedonian tribes, Epirot tribes, Thracian tribes etc) which actually bordered with Illyrians. Doing so we can avoid further nationalistic discussions. As for the maps I agree that we shoud use different ones on different periods of time. As for the Illyrian language article we can use the classification made by Alfoldy and Katicic two different versions, while for the discussed language zones a narrow stripped version would have been ok. Although may have been many critics about this version here I think we can use it partially to pinpoint the tribes (and adding colors naturally :)) . What do you think? Aigest (talk) 11:32, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

The Pannonians only became mixed (ie Celticized after 4th cent BC). Hxseek (talk) 13:10, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Also this map of northern part of "Illyria"

I do agree that Pannonians were Illyrian, I was pointing to the regions farther north where they were confined with Celts, which I sugest to have some intermixing since we don't know their exact location. The map is beautiful but it does not tell to much about the territory, just like a political map does. Maybe we can highlight the linguistic areas sugested by the linguist I mentioned above, so we can better grasp the extension of the territory. Aigest (talk) 13:34, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Pannonia (ie the region) was inhabited by Pannonian-Illyrians. The Celts arrived after 4oo BC, so only after then the northern Pannonian tribes became more or less Celticized. The language map show thie situation prior to this mixing. The tribal map is after. We can only approximated the territories, roughly corresponding to where the name of the given tribe lies. Red represents those tribes thought to be primarily Venetic-speaking, Blue- Celtic, black - Illyrian Hxseek (talk) 00:38, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, this is an ethnic map with positions of tribes based on Antique Greek & Roman sources, where position means settlement. As such, it gives perfect information. So if black = Illyrian, it should be attached to those tribes that were Illyrian related by the ancient writers. A little problem is that "Illyrians" were: 'non-Greek - "barbarian" settlers of the W. Balkans' from the Greek point of view, later from the Roman in the same manner, which didn't necesseraly meant ethnos. Now we're in position to "decide" whether some tribe was truely "Illyrian" (!?) or not, so in some cases, like Histri tribe, we "decided" that they were more Veneti than Illyrii related(!), although sources noted them as Illyrians. Let's not make too many "decisions" like that in the same map. I think linguistic maps must be drawn separately (without tribe positions) with precise explanations of what is shown: "Illyrian dialects according to Alfoldy" and "I. d. according to Katicic" to help a reader's visualization of what is written in the article. Zenanarh (talk) 09:12, 4 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with that but what should we do with Messapic? May be some kind of similar color or smth? Aigest (talk) 09:20, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * New color? They were Illyrian-related per onomastics. Picenum culture was Liburni-related. Zenanarh (talk) 11:46, 4 May 2009 (UTC)


 * If it is for onomastics even Illyrian dialects are based only on onomastics on the works of Alfoldy and Katicic:). Maybe a similar color with one of the dialects would be more helpful. Many scholars still consider Messapic an Illyrian dialect. Since we are making maps on the works of Katicic and Alfoldy I think Messapic area should not have the same color but at least some kind of similar to distinguish it from Italic and Greek of Southern Italy. Aigest (talk) 11:59, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm my point about new color was for ethnonym Messapi in an ethnic map, like this one above. I'm not sure whether we should draw colored language territories in the new linguistic maps. Who can say where exactly some language/dialect area spread? Where are borders between? 2 authors mentioned by you just evaluated a few groups roughly. Wouldn't it be better to write ie Illyrian proper in a map location where those tribes were settled, without filling a territory with color. That way we give general info to a reader about possible geographic position. As for Messapian language, traces that make their relation to the Illyrians has been mainly used to explain migration from the eastern to the western coast of Adriatic Sea. In a linguistic map it's enough to write "Messapian" in the proper location. In article text it should be mentioned that it's often related to the Illyrians. Map should give only visualization of what is said in the article as additional geographical insight, nothing more. Zenanarh (talk) 13:02, 4 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I was thinking more of this kind of style map of Romanian origins.png so the dialect aras woud have been more visible on first sight(of course may be a different map of the Balkans, more accurate but the idea of the highlight zone is the same). The names to be used are those of the 2 authors accordingly, Illyrian proper, Central Illyrians, Dalmatians, Panonians etc. without mentioning the tribes. As for the borders they are in the text Neretva, Vardar etc but we can better specify them later. Aigest (talk) 13:15, 4 May 2009 (UTC)


 * As for the map of Illyrian tribes may be it is better if we use capital letters for the well known tribes such as Ardiani, Taulanti, Encheleans, Autariati, Dardani etc and small letters for the other minor tribes. In this way we can resolve the space problem and also the kinship problem (for eg Taulanti is thought to have been compound of smaller tribes, Parthini, Abri, Albani etc. What do you think? Aigest (talk) 06:41, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

I have found this map which is useful for south Illyrian. It mentions the position of Illyrian, Macedonian, Epirot tribes. It helps avoiding disputed nationalistic issues (Epirots, Macedonians). What dou you think? Aigest (talk) 17:51, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Illyrian dialects
I have added an article over Illyrian dialects. I think it is important in identifying the possible differences of different zones in Illyrian province. Aigest (talk) 14:53, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 2 "Central Illyrian" consisting of most of ex-Yugoslavia, north of southern Montenegro to te west of Morava, excepting ancient Liburnia in the North-East - check this, something's wrong with geography in this sentence. Liburnia in the North-East? Zenanarh (talk) 06:23, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Done, my bad:) Aigest (talk) 07:29, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Small one :) Zenanarh (talk) 07:38, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Yeah sure:) Aigest (talk) 07:43, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Illyrian loanwords to other languages
I have found some material on that matter. Will create an article later. Anybody feel free to help. Aigest (talk) 07:42, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Illyrian inscription at Kovel
It looks like the theory of Krahe for the Illyrian inscription in Kovel is wrong. The Kovel inscription is a Gothic one. Aigest (talk) 08:58, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Plator
I checked User:Megistias's 4 links that supposedly provide a reference for the name Plator deriving from Greek, but number 85 (Wilkes) does not have the reference (I remember that passage very distinctly, it only mentions the name Mellita as having a Greek resonance); number 86 was a link to nothing I could find in the Perseus Digital Library; number 88 does not relate to Plator either. There is no reference provided for Plator being of Greek origin; furthermore, the name is attested in Liburnian as Plaetor, Plaetoris, and the Liburnians also have names such as Aetor. I'm removing plator from the Greek section, and Megistias may have wrongly placed other names too. Does anyone have a reliable reference for plator being of Greek origin? It could be a cognate, but not necessarily deriving from Greek. Is it attested as a name among ancient Greeks? Alex (talk) 10:35, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Maybe plehk/g (strike)  Latin plecto, plango Lith plakti OCS plakati(weep, be sorrowful)  Grk plasso Plator (striker)? Aigest (talk) 14:11, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * My guees is it is cognate to Greek Plato, but it doesn't derive from Greek. It would be a cognate. But I'm just "guessing". Megistias' Greek connections were not all wrong, but his derivation of Plator from Greek (as opposed to being a cognate like I think) is unreferenced. Alex (talk) 14:21, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

In Albanian plak (old man) derives from pelh2 (grey) can't see a connection here. May be Alb. plas (crack, burst, break through) from PIE pleh1k´- to tear, rend. Or Alb plot (full, flat, prompt) from pleh1-t < pelh1- while Alb plot is full or flat and Greek Plato is broad I see a connection here maybe a a cognate with Greek Plato, but Illyrians could have hade their IE form, Alb plot is a cognate. Aigest (talk) 08:11, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Scenobardos
I don't have a reference for User:Flibjib8's etymology of Scenobardos, but the etymology FlibJib posted derives Sceno- from PIE *ski, "to gleam;shadow", and -bardos from PIE *bhardh- ("beard"). Compare Latin Ahenobarbus. I don't know the source but I'm pretty sure it is well-sourced and I think it is correct. Look here in Pokorny, you will find the PIE root and the examples from many IE languages, including Greek, Latin, and Albanian. The Albanian words from this root all begin with the letter h (hie, "shadow", hir, etc.) except for (h)ona, which also begins with the letter o. Pokorny postulates that Albanian (h)ona (meaning "shadow") derives from an earlier (how much earlier?) *skŒi-n form. So these examples have to be considered if one says that Scenobardos is a proto-Albanian name: does it fit the phonetics? And "bardos" has disappeared completely from Albanian, which has words for "beard" that derive from totally different root (mjekër & halë). I think Scenobardos has been traced to the correct roots, *ski & *bhardh-, although no one knows exactly what the name meant: "Dark beard"? "Gleaming beard"? A beard that covers a lot, flowing over his chest (the meaning of "a dark covering" can also be implied)? Alex (talk) 23:12, 30 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Pokorny derives the ancient Greek word "skene" (the source of the English word "scene") from this root also, but the change in meaning is obscure, and others prefer to say "skene" has not been traced to a PIE root with any certainty. The various meanings that "skene" had in Greek may shed light (of course, the Greek word may be unrelated, but they may fit together, like Pokorny was apparently thinking they did fit together) on the meaning of Illyrian "Sceno-": I see that "skene" in Greek meant "a tent" or a human "body" (see the article Skene; a skene was originally a hut or tent, a secluded, covered, obscure, dark place--where the actors retired to between scenes?): maybe it refers to something that covers, a covering? Maybe "Scenobardos" meant a flowing beard that drapes down and covers the chest? Something that covers? Something that obscures (shadow, dark)? Something dark (blackbeard)? In any case we see how different (not light-years away, they are both Indo-European and don't look to be extremely distant; but not that close) Illyrian was from Albanian: Sceno has a cognate (h)ona in Albanian, but Sceno doesn't seem to have an Albanian word that derives from it phonetically (I don't think (h)ona fits?), while -bardos is gone from Albanian. Names like Scenobardos and so many other indications let us know that these people were not speaking Albanian; were they speaking proto-Albanian? Is it the case that "Illyrians" refers to speakers of several languages, not all of which were ancestral to Albanian, if any? Maybe Scenobardos is from a more distant branch? I do not assume that any Illyrians were speaking proto-Albanian: maybe they were, maybe not. Alex (talk) 23:21, 30 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I think the Greek word skene is derived from *ski- as Pokorny derived it; the meaning would be, "a place of cover, of shade, of shadow". I came upon the ancient Greek word for squirrel, Skiouros (from which the English word squirrel is ultimately derived via Latin & French). "Skiouros" in Greek literally means "shadow-tail", because squirrels use their tails to cover/shade themselves; humans may use a tent or hut to shade/cover themselves, so that's the meaning behind Greek Skene I'm pretty sure. Now Illyrian "Sceno": I think Scenobardos probably meant "blackbeard" (dark, black, shadow, shade), more likely than "shiny beard" or "beard that's so long and thick that it covers a lot of him". Alex (talk) 03:35, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I checked *bhardh- in Pokorny and no Albanian examples were listed (no Greek either). Not only does Albanian no longer have "bardos" (meaning 'beard") if it ever did, but in Pokorny I can't find any Albanian words from that root. I'll check the root *bhar- (point, bristle, etc.)next, which is akin to *bhardha. I don't think Daco-Thracian had any words meaning "beard" from that *bhardh- root either, which leads to the question of whether some unidentified component in some Thracian names means "beard". I can't recall a likely candidate. Alex (talk) 04:55, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I checked *bhar- "point, bristle" and I noticed no Albanian examples. I finally found an Albanian example listed under *bhrozdh-, which is listed under *bhares-/*bhores-"point, stubble". The Albanian examples are breth, bredhi, the albanian word for the fir tree, because of its bristly needles. So nothing under *bhar- ("point, bristle" ) itself or *bhardh- (beard; which is a bristly growth, projection from the male chin), but I found those Albanian words for the fir tree, listed under *bhares. This is curious to me, because I noticed that in the languages (Germanic, Slavic, Latin, Celtic, etc.)that do have derivations from *bhardha, they also have more from *bhar-, *bhares, *bhareg, etc. For Albanian all I found was the words for fir tree. Does this indicate that Scenobardos is from a non-Albanic language? Maybe. Maybe Illyrian was not Albanic. I wonder what other explanation there can be for -bardos, with references of course. I'm going to do more studies of the references and the evidence soon, because this study of Scenobardos cannot tell us that much. Alex (talk) 05:26, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm observing a pattern: Albanian has no words listed under the *bhardh- root; neither does Greek; from all those kindred *bhar roots, I found only the Albanian words for the fir tree; for Greek I found nothing listed; the languages that do have words derived from *bhardh (Germanic, Slavic, Latin, Celtic etc.) have numerous examples throughout; Greek and Albanian don't, and to this day Greeks and Albanians have their own words for "beard" not derived from *bhardh. In Daco-Thracian, like Greek and Albanian, I also do not know of an example from *bhardh. What does this mean?...:) it means I'm betting Scenobardos is not a Proto-Albanian name, I'm betting the language associated with Scenobardos was pretty different, and Albanian is more towards Daco-Thracian. Alex (talk) 07:56, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Well ladies and gentlemen, I decided to spend this day researching this, and now I have some more material to work from and double-check, triple-check; that's science, trying to determine physical reality. Note that Demiraj derives the Albanian words for fir tree not from the root that Pokorny derives it from, but from another root *bhereg, "birch tree", "ash"; however this root is for white trees, the birch & ash, according to my Calvert Watkins PIE root reference and Pokorny may well be right deriving breth/bredh from a *bhar root. Demiraj derives the Albanian word "ber" (arrow) from a *bhar root; I didn't find that listed in Pokorny but it looks obvious. Demiraj is not sure whether the Albanian word "bri" (horns, antlers) should be derived from a *bhar root or from *bhru, the PIE root that means "eyebrow". Alex (talk) 08:55, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

In Albanian bardh it means white see etymology here and also Pokorny p.139 IE form for beard is smekru in Albanian mjekër/mjekrë see also Pokorny p. 968. Aigest (talk) 12:42, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

An example in Illyrian is Bardyllis (white star) yll here Albanian form: ��0000">yll {1} [m] (tg) Meaning: star Proto-Albanian: (h)³l- Quasi-IE: h1us-lo- Page in Demiraj AE: 206 IE reconstruction: h1eus- Meaning of the IE root: to burn, glow Page in Pokorny: 347 Other IE cognates: OIc. usli `embers'

Notes: {1} Pl. yj from Alb. *yši. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aigest (talk • contribs) 12:46, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The Albanian word bardhë is from PIE *bhereg, meaning "white, bright". Correct? I read that it comes from an earlier barzë, the change was g--->(Satem shift)z--->dh (what do your sources say?). In Illyrian times, I have a linguistic source that says it should already have had the form barz-: but let's say for argument that it had the form bardh- already, which was transcribed as "bardos". What sense would that make of the name Scenobardos? Dark white? Shadowy white? Obscure/covered white? Do you have a source for such an etymology of Scenobardos? FlibJib had a source for the etymology he posted, which actually makes sense and is supported by parallels such as Ahenobarbus. You are using circular reasnoning: "Illyrian is proto-Albanian so Scenobardos has to be glossed acccording to Albanian forms"---but in this case the result is so unlikely and makes no sense, and disregards Ahenobarbus and offers us a nonsensical unsourced etymology in return. Alex (talk) 15:27, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * If you gloss Scenobardos according to a Celtic paradigm, you will get another pseudo-etymology: "Gleaming Poet" (bardos), or "Shadowy Poet" :) No good sirs, it looks like Scenobardos should be glossed with Ahenobarbus as a guide, not letting Celtic or Albanian color us and give us such unlikely "etymologies". Scenobardos to me is a sign that Illyrian/Albanian may end up the way the Venetic/Albanian theory ended up. Alex (talk) 15:47, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The Celtic form is even mentioned in Greek sources, see here "Bardoi" (Celtic poets) Greek plural from Celtic ; but such an etymology would be so unlikely, like the "bardhe" etymology, and also unsourced. The "beard" meaning given the data fits smoothly; no need for "Gleaming poets", or "Gleaming Whitey". Probably meant "blackbeard", cf. Ahenobarbus. Alex (talk) 16:04, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

/g´/ in Albanian has given /dh/ eg PIE g´ombos-dhëmb (tooth) in this line bh-b like in Balkan languages while g´-dh in Albanian this etymology you can find in Pokorny also. Meaning: white Proto-Albanian: bar‹a- Quasi-IE: bhorHg´-o- Other Alb. forms: barme¨ [f] (g) `bast' {1} Page in Demiraj AE: 90 IE reconstruction: bherHg´-o- Meaning of the IE root: bright, brilliant Certainty: + Page in Pokorny: 139 Other IE cognates: Go. bairhts `bright'

Bardh is one of most secure reconstructed words in Albanian. It depends in the treatment of the labiovelars. The albanian language has e different treatment of the labiovelars from that of the pure Satem languages. The /z/ in Albanian is the last evolution form. As far as I know, never happened in Albanian the evolution z-dh. Hm it looks like I have to write all the rules of Albanian development:) since the actual article in wiki is a bit short. It will take time though. As for the above also it comes to a circular situation. Bardyllos, Bardyllis, Bardullos etc it was a very common name among illyrians (even a king's name) and it is generally accepted as a compound name (white star) while if Bard it means chin than we have chinstar?! Aigest (talk) 16:39, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Here a useful link for the treatment of the PIE phonetics in Albanian. Regards Aigest (talk) 16:52, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Also you can see here that the reconstructed PIE words are /smek/ (chin) and /smokur/ (beard). Also Alb mjekra/mjekër (chin, beard) derives from them. Regards Aigest (talk) 17:26, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I have a linguistic source for the z-dh change in Albanian! Here, it is from a linguist/Thracologist who publishes peer-reviewed Thracological literature: it is in Romanian but if you scroll down you will find the illustrative table that shows the proposed z-dh change and I very much doubt he is the only credited linguist to venture this change). Aigest, this field as you know has conflicting theories in the literature. I know bardhë from *bhereg- is established I wasn't questioning that as you can see. I was saying that I found a reference (which I will link) of a g---z---dh change. Even gombos---dhemb may have went g--->z--->dh. See how Sica from PIE *sek-"to cut" became thikë in Albanian: s--th (yes I know this different from z--dh, but note the change); these sources I saw discuss z---dh in some cases.


 * What reference do you have for Bardyllis deriving from Proto-Albanian "white star"? That doesn't sound likely, you will only find among Native Americans such wild names (Crazy Horse, White Star). But in the Balkans? :) Bardyllis may not mean "white star" any more than Vardulia means "white star". What is the reference? My source (that I linked above) cites Thracian Berzana and Berzobis as being old forms akin to Albanian bardhë (from an older barz- according to this theory), not Illyrian Bardyllis. They are conflicting theories as you can see. In the Thracian scenario, the sound was already z (originally from g) and became dh later. According to this scenario, in Illyrian times, Bardyllis should have been Barzyllis in order to be ancestral to bardhë. In the scenario you believe, the sound at that time was already "dh" and was written as "d".


 * I also have some information about mez/manz I will discuss later, about how it is found in Latin (mannus) even in Basque (a non-IE) language, and if you are proposing an Illyric-Messapic origin that diffused to Thracians, you will have a hard time doing that. It's too common, it's even in Sanskrit :) Alex (talk) 22:04, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * You know what dudes, I was looking through my PIE root references, and while studing the forms derived from *bhardha I found something interesting: "bhardha. Beard. possibly related to bhar-, projection, bristle." And further I read:"*bardo, beard, also hatchet, broadax, the association of beard and axe is attested elsewhere in the Indo-European family; both were symbols of patriarchal (male) authority." So while I wait for a reference for "white star" (did I miss it?), I will venture my original research: Bardyllis may have meant "Little Ax" a weapon he may have early been associated with, like Caligula was nicknamed for his little boots (caligula means "little boot"). So Bardyllis in my theory is a diminutive: Bard-ulis (-ul is known as a diminutive suffix). Little Axe? Why not? Or Little Spear (Bard)? Who says Bardyllis has to be a compound and not a diminutive? Alex (talk) 22:55, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Let's see if Aigest surprises us with references for "white star". For now the idea that it (attested as Bardyllis (Greek text), Bardylis (Greek text), Bardulis (Latin text) is a suffix, a diminutive suffix: for other such suffixes (not necessarily diminutive) see Latin beryllus (beryl), from Greek beryllos (a term of eastern origin); a different Illyrian suffix, Mytilus; a Thracian suffix, Purumerulas; a Thracian or Illyrian suffix, a name attested as Torcula; in Albanian you often find a ullë suffix; etc. So Bardulis---a diminutive suffix? Bardulis, an Illyrian small axe or spear? A Latin word for an ax was securis. A bardulis may have been an Illyrian ax or spear. See PIE *bhardha: Scenobardos, "blackbeard" or something similar; Bardulis, "Little Ax" or "Little Spear" maybe. I'm waiting for evidence/references for the "star" meaning. If there are none I will remove the supposed etymology from the Bardylis article. Alex (talk) 01:28, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * No science or references have been provided yet for the "white star" etymology of Bardyllis. The same way if someone didn't know better and they came across the word Beryllus (Latin), you'll find an Albanian word "ber" meaning "arrow" and the suffix will be "explained" as the Albanian word for "star": Beryllus. Ber-yllus ("arrow star"). Bard-yllus ("White star"). Alex (talk) 01:40, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

No, I wasn't proposing anything for Maz word I was only noticing that it has been in use among those populations so proves nothing for an Illyrian or Thracian origin, but remember that Messapians were separated from other Illyrians and propably moved to Italy around 1000 bc so this is a fact that might suggest at least an old attestation among them, so its origin became very foggy.

Illyrian word for spear was sybina and that is confirmed by many so for sure it was not a spear. As for Bardyllis you should also remember that the name Hylli (Illyrian tribe) existed as a stand alone name and was attested in 4th century BC among Illyrians (yeah Greeks writers proposed that they got them from legendary Hyllus, how come Illyrians in 4th century BC knew so well Greek mythology is beyong me:)) Aigest (talk) 06:49, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I know about the word Sybina, I'm the one who detailed its etymology in this article before even FlibJib I think ;). I (I can't speak for others) am almost certain -ulis is simply a suffix, probably a diminutive, and I don't think that "Bard-" here means "white" (a diminutive for white? no, it's an object). Ax is likely. The "white star" etymology frankly looks cranky to me, and Wilkes in 1982 never even mentioned that. What great discoveries have happened about Bardylis since? On the internet I find only cranky sites quoting the "white star" etymology. Where did it originate from, that etymology? Alex (talk) 07:03, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I would not consider in the same level Mallory and that linguist (apart the fact that he links albanian bardh (white) with barza as a change that never happened z-dh in Albanian) as fou (h)yll sometime in Albanian dialect is with (h) in front you can see Meyer 1892 here which was the first who proposed it. Aigest (talk) 07:12, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

As for Wilkes he looks cranky to me, not pointing anywhere with that book. Anyhow you have to admit that name Hylli was knwon and applied by Illyrian, the etymology of it is another issue Aigest (talk) 07:14, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

And after Meyer, Huld proposed for (H)yll. As I think now the son of Zeus might have been a spark:) Aigest (talk) 07:17, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Look here for the evolution of z in Albanian Aigest (talk) 07:24, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I wrote a longer response but there was an edit conflict! Thanks. Also check out Hyllus (river) for other examples in the Balkanic area. I'll look into the reconstructed form of (h)yll. I was going to write more about what Olteanu wrote about barzǎ (stork; one of those divergent Albanic substrate words; there are others from this cluster in Romanian discussed there) and bardhë, but I'll explain that later. This isn't my main interest, but I like to contribute to these topics and move the populace towards progress in this field: my discussion of Scenobardos and Bardylis: if someone bothers to read it, attack it, advance it; leads to progress---I would rather see other people taking up the study so I can get back to my other interets. I'll be back to these articles later! See y'all later, this kind of detective work is good for the brain, so no time is wasted. And -ulis looks like a suffix to me, I'll look for references for that. Alex (talk) 07:49, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I remember what I was going to write besides a discussion of that z--dh (the z-dh progression looks like what I expect) link from Olteanu: you referred to Wilkes as cranky and I replied that he is not cranky at all, his book is still a popular and good general reference with a good bibliography, it's just that he has a few instances of vagaries that bother people with specialist expectations, not as precise as one would want, but if you find some of his cranky passages feel free to quote them, User:Athenean also noticed your dislike of his book :) Alex (talk) 07:59, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

No I don't dislike its book, I dislike uncertainity, you should wait more for a person which pretends or is spesialist on the field Aigest (talk) 08:10, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't know what to say for Olteanu supposed conjuction. Since 1900 Pedersen to 2006 (that book above) from many top IE scholars (I don't remember any other except Olteanu you mentioned) it is maintained the wiev of z as the latest development in Albanian. Now may be they are wrong,(I doubt) but until they are proved so it remains as such. And returning to the famous Wilkes if you want a fire-back, I don't think Athenean likes Stipcevic also:)Aigest (talk) 08:26, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

A summary of hylli etymology can be found here but in German:( although technically can be understanded;) Aigest (talk) 08:41, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

and here the explanation for Illyrian Bardyllis in german auch:) Aigest (talk) 08:44, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I looked for the Bardyllis info in that last link you posted, and that source believes that Illyrian Bardyllis and Illyrian Bardus should be looked at while glossing bardhë (yes, as a scientist you have to look at the data; I'm not sure if that author is firm or dogmatic in his view of them definitely sharing the same etymon)---but I saw no mention of White Star, or Hyllus, or Hylli there. Alex (talk) 08:54, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The Scenobardos etymology FlibJib posted is from Katičić, Radoslav. Ancient languages of the Balkans. The Hague - Paris (1976). Alex (talk) 09:08, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

No actually Demiraj was talking only about Bard part in all these attested Illyrian names, as for the rest,Bardus form for sure is without star:) while for Bardyllis some have maintained the wiev of star part from yll(star). In the next page you can find in the end the link for Rom barza next to Çabej. Aigest (talk) 09:10, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Is that view supported by a reputable linguist in your link? you said Demiraj does not discuss such a white/star compound. Don't misuse sources if that's what you were doing please, we can read German ;) Alex (talk) 09:12, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I am interested which source actually connect bardos with PIE beard or more accurattely which is the PIE form of beard because so far as I see there are other reconstructed etymologies as I have already mentioned /smek/ as for the white star as far as I remember there is a work of Cabej, I'll check Aigest (talk) 09:15, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

No dude it's not my intention to misuse the sources:) as I have already said Demiraj only deals with bard part, others have dealed with star part. I am only interested in the truth whatever it is;) Aigest (talk) 09:18, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

The Scenobardos etymology FlibJib posted is from Katičić, Radoslav. Ancient languages of the Balkans. The Hague - Paris (1976). Alex (talk) 09:08, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Yep I know Katicic, that's why I am interested in this claim. But my point was nowadays which is the accepted recontructed word for beard and chin, since many proposed etymologies change with the time (BTW Katicic supported Illyrian-Albanian theory) Aigest (talk) 09:27, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

And since you mentioned Katicic he supports the Satem character of the Illyrian language and though Katicic is widely used by Wilkes in dialectal areas, his claim for the satem (for Asmon-Akmon (sharp, stone) or Birziminium-beorgh (hill) clarly satem examples) have dissappeared in Wilkes in page 73 you have "there is no evidence that Illyrian belongs to Satem group" apparently he had some blackouts of memories:) that's why at least for Illyrian language his book is crankyAigest (talk) 09:32, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Ah, ok. I can understand that. The accepted words for proto-Albanian beard and chin? Probably the ones you mentioned earlier. There is a lot of literature in this field with different views so careful when posting such and such statements as fact (I've made mistakes also doing that). Demiraj has his views. Cabej has his views. Katicic has his views. That Scenobardos etymology is not to be brushed away unless you find some expert who has disproven it or something, it looks pretty solid. Demiraj didn't mention "white star", that may be an indication that "white star" is not deemed likely. For Bardyllis, you can work in that Demiraj and some others consider or believe that Bardylis and bardhë have the same etymon. But who mentions "white star" nowadays? And would that be undisputed? Alex (talk) 09:45, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * To me Demiraj and other of his camp are no more reliable than a linguist Paliga I once came across in a pdf file. He also has his long list of glosses and PN ON TN from Thracian, Illyrian etc. etc. that's what they all do. They often contradict each other. They often don't always build strong cases or have grey areas. They argue for their theories, sometimes with a lot of firmness, or they present tentative collections of data, meant more for consideration (like: "I note these anthroponyms that probably or may share this etymon, in my view"). I can find other sources if i looked, with different views, but i don't really care at the moment. Katicic's Scenobardos etymology is an example, unless he's saying Illyrians had "bardos" "beard" and bard "white". So if Demiraj derives or tentatively derives Bardyllis from the same root as bardhe, what is his gloss of the meaning of the name? Bardylis means "Whitey Ford" according to Demiraj or what? Alex (talk) 09:56, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

No actually I was talking about the Proto IndoEuropean reconstructed word. If IE scholars agree that IE words for beard and chin are others eg /smek/ clearly the ethymology of Katicic falls of (at least for the beard part) that's why I was interested if any other scholar maintain the anoth old IE form for chin.

The problem is that many linguistic works are not published in the web and this is more than sad true for Albanian scholars (although many are famous such as Cabej, Gjinari, Sh Demiraj, B. Demiraj) especially in English language. I had to check for that star part. Another interesting thing is a conjuction about Parthin tribe (Parthini and their city Parthinoi, which Demiraj and other Alb. relate to white) which was mentioned many times among Illyrian tribes until Ptolemy in his book didn't mentioned them but Albani and Albanopolis in the same area. After Ptolemy other old historians don't mention Albani and Albanopolis but only Parthini and city Parthinoi in the same area. One Alb. scholar proposed that Albani was the translation of Parth(white) to Alb(white) by Ptolemy. It was interesting but I had to retrace it. Aigest (talk) 10:12, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

As for other theories there is another of Alinei who connects Thracian with Slavic languages (and there are plenty Slavic words in Thracian according to him, many times more than those related to Albanian or Illyrian sica dixit, but I think that even others have mentioned this fact if I am not wrong) and supposes that the Slavs have always occupied these areas.

While Olteanu as far as I remember is proposing the old theory according to which the Thracians have occupied all the Balkan peninsula before Illyrians came and pushed them to the east (Hallstat culture) and this explained (according to him) many Thracian connected toponyms in Illyrian soil.

The problem is that according to the Illyrian archaeologists the autocthon theory is the more propable and the Illyrian invasion theory has lost terrain since 60'. see Stipcevic, Benac, Korkutaj, Bosh-Gimpera etc. Aigest (talk) 10:12, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't see your rationale gainst Katicic's etymology. Latin Ahenobarbus for example, the first one listed in that article with that name is from 192 BC. I think the Illyrian name Scenobardos is attested later than 192 BC, later than Ahenobarbus. I don't know, but it is probably attested after the Romans conquered illyria. I know of the Parthini/bardhe idea, it is accepted by olteanu, but he views it as Thracic (and bardhe as Thracic; I don't know if he views it as exclusively Thracic and I don't care, ask him). I haven't really looked into the question of the arrival of the illyrians, but they are not mentioned in the Iliad unless I'm mistaken. Paiones are different, connected to Anatolia. Thracians are mentioned a lot. Alex (talk) 10:22, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

No, maybe you misunderstood me, I am very interested in Katicic work and I consider him one of the greatest Balkan linguists, that's why I was asking if anybody nowadays has proposed bhardha or whatever PIE form for beard, since many IE changes with the time one must be critical to old etymologies, if they stand in time that is a good thing and can be used, but if they are contradictory then which is the most widely accepted version tents to be true, that's why I was asking if anybody else hade reconstructed IE beard.

Of course Thracians are mentioned. It was a war in their territory:) At least they could do was to pay the tickets for the gladiators wiev arond Troya:) As I remember also even Epirotes are not mentioned in Illyada, that puts them with Illyrians? Don't tell this to Athenean:) and what about Macedonians?:) Anyway not even other Thracian tribes closed to that area are mentioned and the Peonians have been displaced some times during their history see what Persians did to them translocating all population (attracted form physionomy of the Peonians they tried to repopulate Asian areas) Aigest (talk) 10:37, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, The Iliad is not an academic sourcebook of history and many that were in/near the Greek lands (not necessarily in the war) weren't mentioned, but the omissions at least show that those who weren't mentioned probably didn't participate significantly. On another topic, I'm about to move on to other articles for tonight, but there is a Latin word "bardus/f. barda" that meant "dull, stupid, slow". It is found in my Cassel's Latin dictionary. I don't know the etymology of it, but when dealing with scattered PN,ON,TN from Illyrian or whatever, that Latin word is a reminder of how a word or name looks can't always tell us a lot, and it can mislead. Considering that, I'm more interested in the expected form of bardhe in Illyrian times (would it be transcribed as bard or barz; that appears to still be disputed/unknown: Demiraj sees no problem with bard apparently, Olteanu didn't say it's not possible, but I guess he expects barz/berz): on that point I said above: "there are conflicting theories, you believe those scenarios etc. while this source presenting another scenario says". Alex (talk) 11:02, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I told you before that Albanian have a different treatment of labivelars and other characteristics which differ it greatly from other Satem languages (let me explain my position Albanian is actually a Satem) and that's why linguists have difficulties in puttin it with Nortwestern group(Germanic), Northeastern group (baltoslavic) or Southern group (Armaenian, Greek) as I remember Cabej that Thracian Barza came from the same IE source barghoi?(I don't remember now look above) only that if Albanian rendered /g'/ as dh the Thracian rendered /g'/ as /z/ another difference between Alba and Thracian. Aigest (talk) 11:18, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * barza & bardhe-->ult. from *bhereg-"bright, white". Hey I'm not the one who published that article about z--dh. I can't dismiss it and I don't 100% accept it: if I did I wouldn't bother debating with anyone, I would be sure of my views and just ignore people. Later, :) Alex (talk) 11:31, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Just for continuing the debate there are other registered forms Barzidihi or Barzos as I remember:) but I don't know if they are considered 100% Illyrian. The problem is that we have the sources for Satem languages from Centum languages such as Greek and Latin and some(if not many) errors in pronounciation and transcriptions are expected, a long lasting debate for those who deals with them:) Regards Aigest (talk) 11:54, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes. Since you incline towards the (linguistically unsupported as of 2009?) "white star" or at least "white-" (Demiraj considers this, as do others) meaning, I guess you will be looking for evidence in that direction. Right now I'm looking in the "beard" direction (inspired by the Scenobardos etymology). In Latin there is "barba" (beard), and diminutive "barbula" (attested as a Romancognomen, i.e. a personal name), and I found "barbulis" as a word in Latin sine barbulis nascerentur, born without a beard and I found a Romanian fashion model with the last name Barbulis (yes indeed, detective work; is that an assumed last name or born with it I wonder). The significance is that the Latin forms allow us to imagine parallel Illyrian forms, roughly like barda (barba), bardula (barbula, little beard); bardulis (barbulis, attested as Andreaa Barbulis, Vali Barbulis etc., in Serbia/Montenegro I found a last name Barbulj; I found the last names Barbullushi (Albanian?) and Barbulescu, Barbus, Barbusci, Barbuletiu. So those Illyrian forms (Bardos, Bardulis) may well mean "beard", since such names are common, and "white star" is not common! And "white" on its own doesn't explain the -ulis suffix. So I still think "beard" is more likely than "white", and I don't think "white star" is likely. Alex (talk) 14:01, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Consider also:Scenobardos/Ahenobarbus; Bardulis/Barbulis, Barbus/Bardus etc. Alex (talk) 14:05, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Yep I consider them, but first there is no (b) after (r) it is Bard or Barz so we have to clear forms /d/ and /z/ (if we trust Greek and Roman sources) and at the time of atestation after propably more than 2000 (if IE is about 3000 BC) years of evolutions that /d/ or /z/ must have derived from smth. The above scholars even Olteanu (I think if I didn't misunderstand you) point to a PIE /g'/. So propably there were a lot of Albinos in Ballkans:) Aigest (talk) 14:13, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure of the white star, I remember I have read smth about it years ago (If I am not wrong Cabej) but the name Bardos or Bardus have been in use among Albanians in medieval times Frang Bardhi for eg. Aigest (talk) 14:20, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

While in Albanian, you have suffixes from Bardh(white) Bardhosh(whitey) Bardhush(diminuitive affection whitey). Aigest (talk) 14:22, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * My scenario accepts Katicic's Scenobardos etymology; smoothly explains the -ulis component as simply a diminiutive suffix; does not need to invoke an unlikely, silly-sounding, unattested "white star", for which no current reference can be found? Later, Alex (talk) 14:28, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Ok but first bardus not - IE beard at least by Mallory and others Second there is the simple forms attested in Illyrian, Bardius, Bardos who fits perfectly with white alb or barza stork in Rom. Later I need some sleep now;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aigest (talk • contribs) 14:37, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Now that I'm gathering my books, I can begin some research the way it should be done. I'd forgotten a lot and was out of practice, but I went ahead and debated anyway and I did okay, and what I see in Wilkes here (yes I'm using him again but using him for his collection of data)looks like I was more or less on the right track (for example, Scenobarbus is attested a lot among the Delmatae, although in Wilkes I did not find the form Scenobardos). I'm more skeptical of Thraco-Illyrian (like I used to be). I will look into what was discussed here and improve the information on these topics at this website. I have some free-time. Right now I'm working on the anthroponyms. Alex (talk) 02:49, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, it seems that for Scenobarbus we have a Blackbeard among Illyrians (no wonder why they were called pirates:)) Aigest (talk) 07:09, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Anthroponyms
I am going to detail at least five Illyrian onomastic areas (1)Delmatae, 2)south Illyrian, 3)Dardanian, 4)Iapodes, 5)Pannoni; Liburnian/Venetic and Messapic excluded) so I have to remove the names considered Celtic or Thracian for space. I will copy-paste the section below. It can be used as material towards an article about Celts in Illyria, while the Thracian stuff can be used in Thracian articles or discussed in Illyria, to show that non-Illyrians were in Illyria.

Celtic

The following Illyrian names, most of which occur in inscriptions from the upper Neretva river valley near Konjic in Bosnia, are considered to derive from Celtic


 * Arvus
 * Belzeius
 * Cambrius
 * laritus
 * Lautus
 * Argurianus(Thracian or Celtic)
 * Ammida(questionable associations)
 * Matera(questionable associations)
 * Seneca(questionable associations)
 * Mellito(Greek & Celtic)
 * Nantia
 * Nonntio
 * Laca
 * Madusa
 * Matisa
 * Nindia
 * Poia
 * Sicu
 * Aioia
 * Andetia
 * Baeta
 * Bidna
 * Catta
 * Dussona
 * Boio
 * Bricussa
 * Iacus
 * Mallaius
 * Mascelio
 * Kabaletus
 * Litus
 * Nantanius
 * Sarnus
 * Sinus
 * Sisimbrius
 * Vepus

Thracian

The following names derive from Thracian


 * Argurianus(Thracian or Celtic)
 * Auluporis
 * Auluzon
 * Bithus
 * Bessus
 * Teres
 * Celsus
 * Celsinus
 * Cocaius
 * Daizo
 * Delus
 * Dida
 * Dinentilla
 * Dizas
 * Dizo

---Alex (talk) 02:56, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Illyrian theonyms
First I want to thank you for your dedication to this article. I haven't checked it out yet but it looks more informative than before, you have done a great job, chapeau;)

Secondly if I may suggest, beside Illyrian theonyms, maybe is better to put some kind of explanation, (god or goddes of.....), what do you think? Aigest (talk) 07:05, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, that should be added. a lot of those deities are apparently Liburnian, and technically not Illyrian (although it's possible Illyrian and Liburnian were closely related, for example the name Boria is found among south Illyrians, yet Boria is also the name of an Istrian/Liburnian deity ("a deity occuring only in Istria"). Also the south Illyrian name Plator is found among Liburni as Plaetor. There is more. Alex (talk) 07:11, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

There is another Illyrian god missing, Redon (deity of the sea). Aigest (talk) 11:46, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Norbert Jokl
According to Hamp (1962)

Jokl's Illyrian-Albanian correspondences (Albaner §3a) are probably the best known. Certain of these require comment: Strabo (7.314) eloV Lougeon : lëgatë 'swamp'. This could be *lug-, but there is also *lag- 'wet', which might of course also represent *loug-.

Ludrum : Tosk lum 'muck', Geg lym, Tosk ler, but there are also Latin and Greek cognates.

Aquae Balizae : baltë 'mud'. But Krahe (IF 1962:67.151-158) thinks Balissae is from Bal-is(i)a : *Bal-sa in Balsenz < *Bal-s-antia (: *Ap-s-antia > Absentia) : Lith. balà 'swamp' : OCS blato, Alb. baltë. Therefore, for Krahe Balissae/Balizae is "Alteuropaisch" (see below).

Metu-barbis ~ -barris is ambiguous.

Malo/untum, etc., involve root etymologies and are dubious.

Place names in -V-ste/a/o : kopshtë 'orchard', vresht 'vineyard' : (Illyrier §4) Lith. -ysta 'membership'. But even this seemingly solid item has been challenged by J. Hubschmid ("Substratprobleme," Vox Romanica 1960:19): "Letzten Endes sind sie aber vorindogermanischen Ursprungs. Sie drücken die Zugehörigkeit aus, haben ferner kollektive oder frequentative Bedeutung" (p. 177). Hubschmid claims the suffix occurs from Basque and Western Romania to Asia Minor, against Georgiev's Pelasgic -s(s)- (pp. 298-299).

Schulze's -is- in names is now Krahe's "Alteuropäisch."

That Alb. -ínj is a plural-collective is clear, but what about the meaning of Delminium?

Jokl's fragile Thracian correspondences need a thorough overhauling in the light of recent work, on more than one count.

Aigest (talk) 08:04, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Another interesting unknown work of Jokl here related to Albanian-Illyrian-Latin-Greek connections. Aigest (talk) 08:08, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * An Albanian-Illyrian correspondance that looks 100% definite for me is Dimallum (the suffix -ion from Greek, -um from Latin), "two mountains": modern Albanian "dy" (two), "mal" (mountain). In Romanian we have a kindred word "mal" which means "shore (as in a bank of land)". Polybius is said to have referred to two hills/citadels there or something. I did not find this corespondance mentioned in Wilkes (it's not mentioned in his book, I checked everything on it in the index), I simply saw the toponym and remembered reading about a discussion of Dimallum somewhere. Another thing, to me south Illyrian and Dardanian have always seemed to me to be more Albanic and likely to be close to proto-Albanic rather than Delmatae, Pannoni, etc. If Albanian is from south Illyrian/Dardanian, then I would say south Illyrian/Dardanian was probably not too far from Thracian (Thraco-Illyrian). But Delmatae often looks Liburnic to me (they did mix a lot, that is a fact as seen from Dalmatian names). Alex (talk) 08:16, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Yep you are right about Dimallum, or Dimalitan. Illyrian fortress identified at Krotinë, Berat, Albania, attacked by Roman legions in the Second Illyrian war (Demeter Fari was regent in the name of Pinus, Agron's son) Aigest (talk) 08:46, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * FlibJib some time ago added the Liburnian name Vesclevesis to the article, which is not attested beyond Liburnia, according to Wilkes' book. I removed the name, but the Liburnian theonyms may stay for now. However I want to remove them too eventually, we have the article Liburnian language that can note them and I'll soon fix up that article too & mention stuff like Boria being a south Illyrian name and a Liburnian theonym. Alex (talk) 08:53, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, the Liburnians were an old Mediterranean population and the matriarchy was still strong in Illyrian era, while IE tribes were more of patriarchy connected. The Liburnians were heavy influenced by Illyrians and by Veneti (if I remember well to many names with -volx- form) so any name applied to them remain dubious. Katici does not even include them among Illyrian speakers (and he includes Pannoni, which some others put aside) Aigest (talk) 09:00, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Looking at the Pannoni names in Wilkes' book, they are rather Illyrian, including many south Illyrian names, but they are also Delmatic, and the Delmatae are the ones who often have a more Liburnic (Venetic, closer to Italic) look to their names: and if Sextus is really a native Delmatae name, that is centum for sure, it's identified as meaning "the sixth" in Wilkes' book I think. Alex (talk) 09:35, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Well Sextus is a typical Latin name, I don't remember anyone saying Sextus is Illyrian. The problem with the identification of names is that first where did it first appeared, pre-Roman, Roman conquest, Late Roman? Secondly if I remember correctly the illyrians had what is called trinomes(?) so it is difficult to identify since in a single script you can have, Illyrian, Latin, Celtic all i a single name. Aigest (talk) 09:46, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, I thought about Latin names wrongly identified as native Delmatae, but this book is saying they are native Delmate names. See Wilkes page 75. After describing charcteristic Delmatae names (included in that list are Sestus/Sextus/Sexto), Wilkes goes on to say: "Other names appear among the Delmatae whose origins lie outside their territory." He is implying that Sestus, Sextus/Sexto are native Dalmatian. I don't think that is Wilkes' conclusion, he is quoting the literature. They may be native forms, because I don't know whether Sestus and Sexto (Sexto may be, but not Sestus I think) are attested as Latin names and if Sestus and Sexto are native, Sextus may as well be, even though Sextus is attested in Latin; if these experts Wilkes is quoting say it is native, they have their reasons for making that conclusion). Liburnic and Venetic are close to Italic, and Dalmatic may have been close to Liburnic/Venetic (Latin Ahenobarbus, Dalmatian/Pannonian Scenobarbus). Alex (talk) 09:54, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Can you see now why I defined him cranky:) (at least for the linguistic issues, among others pure Latin names as native Illyrians?!:) even Veneti I think don't have Sextus names:) and no references at all for his statements. Anyway at least for the linguistic issues and interpretation Wilkes is not to be trusted (I don't trust him in other issues but that's another point) it is better to use his data, but for their interpretation, Illyrian, Greek, Latin, Celtic, Dacian, Thracian it is better to use linguists directly. Katicic is the most authoritative source for my opinion. (BTW this is not the right place to say it but I edited smth you might be really interested in Origin of Albanians section genetic studies see especially in the end of the section). Aigest (talk) 10:08, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Wilkes' reference may be Rendic-Miocevic, 1975. I'll get the title of the work later. No, these names are not clearly from Latin at all; Sextus and Sexto may be, Sestus is not. The Iapodes also have a name Sestenius (Sestus is also attested among them). It fits. Sest- looks to be the native Delmatic word for "six", Sexto/Sextus may be Latinate modifications of native Delmatic Sestus/Sesto. Wilkes book in 2004 was my first real introduction to the field, and I read this information years ago, so you can see why I view Albanic as more likely Thracic, or at least Dardanic, while Delmatic may have been closer to Liburnic---after looking at such data. Alex (talk) 10:13, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't remember anybody to have identified such names as Illyrians?!(may be I am wrong but until the linguistic references will clarify as I said:) I don't trust Wilkes in linguistics. Almost forgot, I saw a work of SH. Demiraj yesterday for the word gjarpër/gjarpën and he compares it with Latin, but at least in that article does not consider it a Latin loan (I was convinced of the contrary for the latin loan I had to check the others, if the /serpen/ is IE maybe he is right, anyway PIE *s->gj in Albanian is very old and has affected inherited PIE words such as gjum (sleep)-/sup-no-/, gjashtë (six) - /s(u)eksti/. I had to check again. Aigest (talk) 10:30, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The way Wilkes placed his note on page 76, his reference is Rendic-Miocevic, 1948, 1956, 1976a. The Iapodian examples (Sestus and Sestenius) to me speak for themselves. Sest- meant "six" in Delmatic/Iapodian I think it's safe to say. Sextus/Sexto may even be native. Another Delmatic number name seems to be Tritus (third). The gjarpe etymology, that's one of those "who really can tell for sure" situations that I brought up to make a point. May well be native to Alb, the form is found in many Ie languages, like Sanskri "sarpa". Alex (talk) 10:39, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

As far as for Sextus it is a pure Roman name, I wonder anyone could challenge that. I don't know the work of Rendic-Miocevic but I remain very dubious for a native Dalmatian name. Illyrian was different language form Latin (none has classified it with Latin-Ombric families except for some who connecting Veneti with Illyrians saw an affinity there(based on Veneti, no Illyrian data at all). The appearances in Dalmatae heavily Latinized to the point they first among Illyrians losed their language, creating their own Latin language, and also to Japodes (many influences there latin, celts, venets some don't consider them Illyrian at all), while in the same time that in Veneti (latin group) this name does not appear, also not in Pannoni area and the last but more important in real Illyrians (Illyrii proprie dictii) not a single sign of it or its variances to me means that it remains dubious as a native name. Aigest (talk) 10:57, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm convinced "Sest-" is native to some Iapodic/Liburnic/possibly Delmatic groups. I haven't found an example in south Illyrian, but I haven't really looked. I haven't looked for Tritus (inflected as Triti sometimes etc.) in south Illyrian either. Alex (talk) 11:04, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

It is dubious what to call Illyrian. According to Katicic 1976 p 179-180 the core onomastic area of the Illyrian proper is to be located at the southeast area of the Illyrians (centered in modern Albania) this looks like the mainstream today see citation at Woodard 2008 and that is what even Wilkes (somewhat confusially in my opinion:) is trying to say in page 87 of its book. Aigest (talk) 11:21, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The core of illyrians was pretty much where you say, I think everyone agrees on that. Delmatae mixed with Liburni etc., Pannoni mixed with others etc. To the south, Illyrians mixed with others like Greeks (with names like Glaukias, Kleitos etc.), in Dardania Illyrians mixed with Thracians and I notice Paiones (Anatolian probably, non-Illyric, non-Thracian) and Dardani have some names in common, like Longarus (Dardanian)<--->Langarus (Agrianian/Paionian) (I'll detail the Dardanic onomastic area tomorrow from Wilkes, latr I'll get other books). The names as they come down through history show the pattern of mixture; there are also speculations of people in Northwest Greece who spoke "neither illyrian nor Greek" but another language, maybe like Macedonian. Plus the unidentified Pelasgians, the non-IE Lemnians, etc. Alex (talk) 11:36, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Laidas, Laidus
I haven't seen a reference for this etymology, but -Laidas (in Skerdilaidas), Laidus, etc. (there are some other forms) pretty obviously derives from the same root as Latin laus, laudis ("fame, glory") and German Lied. The meaning would be the same as -clevesis (in Liburnian Vesclevesis) and Greek Kleitos etc. See Pokorny: I could not find an Albanian word from this root in his reference:

"Root / lemma: lŒu-3 oder lƒu-

English meaning: expr. root

German meaning: Schallwurzel

Comments: (s. auch lƒ-, lŒ-), ungenµgend beglaubigt

Material:

Eine d-Erweiterung in lat. laus, -dis f. `Lob', laudƒre `loben'.

''Eine t-Erweiterung in ahd. liod n., ags. lŒo? n. `Lied', aisl. lj¡? n. `Strophe', Pl. `Lied', ahd. liud¡n, ags. lŒo?ian, aisl. lj¡?a, got. liu?¡n `singen', awiliud¡n `lobsingen', awiliu? `Lobgesang'.''

References: WP. II 406, WH. I 776."

The problem with Dimallum, I don't think "mal" has been traced to an IE root and it may be a "Pelasgic"/non-IE word. Di (two) is also in Greek. So I think Dimallum does mean "two hills", but so far all it shows to me is that a probably non-IE word was common in the Balkans: "mal", perhaps also found in Malvensis/Maluensis (there are references to that effect). More Albanic correspondances and less non-correspondances need to be found.

In Demiraj, he also says of Alb. mal: possibly a non-IE word. He cites the Romanian and Latvian words which have the same meaning in Romanian and Latvian (shore, side of a river). I had seen the entry before but I forgot that there is a Latvian example that in meaning is identical to the Romanian example, but in Rom. it is "mal" in Latvian, "mala". Here is the entry in Demiraj:

"Albanian form: mal [m] (tg)

Meaning: mountain, rock-formation, mountain-wood

Proto-Albanian: mall-

Other Alb. forms: maje¨ / maje [f] `peak, summit, top, tip, brim, elevated place' {2}

Page in Demiraj AE: 254

IE reconstruction: molH-(i-)

Meaning of the IE root: elevated, raised place

Certainty: ? {1}

Page in Pokorny: 722

Other IE cognates: Rom. mal `shore, side (of the river)'; Latvian. mala `shore, side (of the river)'

Notes: {1} Possibly, a non-IE word. {2} < PAlb. *maliiƒ (< *m(o)lH-ieh2)."

---Alex (talk) 05:08, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

For -Laidus, Laidus etc. see also Greek laidion, with a meaning of "euonumon" (renowned, of good name).

In Perseus D. Lib., there are only two obscure entries that link to here, laidion and laides  (the meaning "euonumon" not attested for laides?), and the meaning "euonumon" for "laidion" is attested apparently in an obscure work: ''Cyrilli Glossarium [Cyr.] Ed. M. Schmidt (post Hesychium, vol. iv, p. 362), Jena 1862.'' Laidion looks to be very rare in Greek? Not mentioned in Pokorny entry (see above) etc. Is it attested in ancient Greek names? It is very common in Illyrian, even found among Pannoni (Laidus etc.). Another Illyrian variant is Laido. In Venetic, I found Laitus. Alex (talk) 05:33, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

The Albanian cognate is not close compared to Illyrian (Laid-) and Venetic (Lait-) and Greek (Laid-); it is reconstructed by Demiraj as quasi-IE Lutio (Lut-) (also the meaning in Albanian is not close):

Albanian form: lus [verb] (tg)

Meaning: to beg, pray, request

Gramm. forms: Present: lus, lut (2/3s); Aorist: luta; Part.: lute¨ (tg), lutur / lutun

Proto-Albanian: luts´i-

Quasi-IE: luT-io-

Page in Demiraj AE: 248

IE reconstruction: leuT-

Certainty: ? {1}

Page in Pokorny: 683

Latin: laud¡ `to praise'

Other IE cognates: Go. liu?on `to sing'

Notes: {1} Onomatopoeic root. {2} [MdV] I see no onomatopoeic aspect to this root.

Alex (talk) 05:46, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

This next idea of mine is more speculative, but My hypothesis :) is that Skerdis (in Skerdilaidas and another Illyrian name Skerdis) meant "Sword" or something similar, deriving from PIE *sker, "to cut", from which are derived some words meaning "Sword" such as middle irish (?) coire (=Sword), see here Sker- 4. As auch in the case of Thracian Sica from PIE *sek-, "to cut". So my hypothesis is that Skerdilaidas meant "Famous Swordsman/Renowned Swordsman". That is kind of speculative, but the meaning of -Laidas looks certain, and the proto-Albanian form was Lut-, and the modern meaning is pretty different. Alex (talk) 06:17, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

One explanation was made by Krahe (Die Sprache der Illyrier I f. 59 v) Skerdilaidas, me ilir. /skerd/ lit. /skerdzius/ (herdsman), old slavonic church /creda/ (flock) sanskr /çardhas/ (flock, small military group) alb /çerdhe/, (nest) with /laidas/ gr. /laidros/ (insolent) while Cabej compares /laidas/ with angl. /leader/, germ. /Leiter/ (leader)  old germ /laidian/; so for Krahe is herdsmen; while for Cabej is  (detachment leader) i will say it in Albanian (çetëprijës) because I have some difficulties translating it from Albanian while çetë is a small military group may be can be called detachment) Aigest (talk) 07:45, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I have more faith in my explanation, because my gloss of -Laidus is much more solid and likely (see all my data for my gloss of -Laidus, while for "leader" frankly that looks wrong and I have shown a rare Greek example etc.. I like my end result much more: "Famous Swordsman". I thank you for showing me those other theories because now i know mine is better---the way I see it. Laidion=euonumon etc. No one says it's from Greek i also notice. I'm not saying that either, that rare Greek gloss may be from Illyrian. Alex (talk) 07:53, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * And if they are saying Skerdis means "herd, group" in Illyrian, then there was an illyrian with the name "herd"? :) If they say Skerdis meant "herdsman" then Skerdilaidas meant "Leader of herdsmen"? :) For the attestation of the name Scerdis on its own see Wilkes pg. 75. Alex (talk) 08:00, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't know what to say for Skerd, I am more interested in Laida makes more sense morphologically to put it (illr) Laida-laidian(old germ) than -laud (latin). which is the IE reconstructed word for leader? Aigest (talk) 08:19, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Well the name Laitus is in Venetic (which was kind of close to Italic) and there are other Illyrian/Venetic names in common like Plaetorius/Plaetor etc., and there is the laidion (Greek) example (euonumon). There are examples from other languages too. The IE word for "leader", I don't remember. However I remember you asking for the "beard" word when we were discussing Scenobardos/Scenobarbus (attested). Alex (talk) 08:29, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * For my gloss of Skerdilaidas, see also the meaning of the name Eckbert/Egbert, "famous/renowned swordsman" . "Bert" in Germanic meant bright or famous (see also the article [[Gilbert] for confirmation: beraht "bright" or "famous" it says there). Alex (talk) 08:56, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Here is Pokorny's *leit(h)-

Root / lemma: leit(h)-2

English meaning: to go out; die; go

German meaning: `fortgehen; sterben; gehen'

Material: Av. raŒ±- `sterben' (Pr„s. iri±yeiti);

got. ga-lei?an `gehen', anord. l–?a st. V. `gehen, vergehen, dahinschwinden, verlaufen, zu Ende gehen, verscheiden', as. l–than st. V. `gehen, wandern, fahren, befahren, vergehen', schw. V. lithon `bringen, sich begeben'; ags. l–?an st. V. `gehen, reisen', ahd. l–dan st. V. `einen Weg nehmen, gehen, fahren, weggehen, vergehen, verderben; erfahren, erleben, leiden', nhd. leiden (verschieden vom Subst. Leid, s. *leit- `verabscheuen'); anord. li? n. `Fahrzeug', ags. n. `Fahrzeug, Schiff'; ahd. ³z-lit `excessus';

germ. *laid¡: 1. `Weg' in aisl. lei? f. ds. , ags. la´d ds. , `Wasserlauf', Prim„rbildg. zu germ. l–?an `gehen, fahren'; 2. `Fµhrung' in ags. la´d f. n. ds. , `Transport, Unterhalt', ahd. leita `Fµhrung', zum Kausat. germ. *laidjan `gehen, machen, fµhren'; 3. ags. la´d `Reinigungseid', afr„nk. lƒde ds. , auch zu *laidjan als `Beibringen von Eideshelfern', auch ahd. laida (das d von leida `Anklage');

Kaus. (germ. *laidian) anord. lei?a `fµhren, geleiten, begleiten', ags. l?¯dan, as. lŒdian `leiten, bringen', ahd. leittan, leiten `leiten, fµhren, mit sich tragen, haben'; anord. li?inn `tot', lŒi?i n. `Grabst„tte' (`*Geleit'), ahd. leita (*leitia), leit– `funus' (`*zu Grabe geleiten'), mhd. bileite n. `Begr„bnis'; mit letzterer Bed. vermutlich auch gr. lo…th `t£foj', loiteÚein q£ptein Hes. , auch loitÒj loimÒj Hes. ?

toch. A lit- `fortgehen, herabfallen'.

Ob Erweiterung von *lei- `sich ducken, verschwinden'?? Vgl. got. aflinnan `fortgehen' usw.

References: WP. II 401 f., Wissmann Postverbalia 57 f.

Page(s): 672

---The root means "to go out, die". And most of the examples are from Germanic (what is the Albanian cognate?). So Krahe glosses Laidus as "insolent" (laidros), Cabej as "leader", Alex as "renowned" (laidion). And I gloss Scerdis as sword. According to Cabej there was an Illyrian named "military group" (Scerdis, personal name). Is there an attestation in any IE language of an individual named "group" (Scerdis)? Here is Eck, a stand alone name meaning "sword" (Eck/Eckbert; a modern example: Eck Curtis). Ok dudes, whatever. I'll be back. Alex (talk) 09:29, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Back again;) no as far as I know Cabej didn't connected laida with any actual Alb word. If I am not wrong Cabej thinks the alb. word lavd(fame) is a borrowing from Lat. laud. Does any reconstructed PIE exist for skard part? Aigest (talk) 10:07, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

As for fame (mallory 2006) the reconstructed PIE is klewes OIr clu Lat. cluor OCS slovo (word) Greek kleos Av sravah (word) Skt sravas (fame), Toch B kalywe (fame) even if it is right in Illyrians Ves-cleves (we cn say even in eng. glory from lat) so maybe Latin laud comes form another source or has come from another meaning and was not the direct meaning of it and also german propably came from Latin?! Aigest (talk) 13:43, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Taulanti, Enchelea etc
In his book Stipcevic mentiones Enchelea (eel) alb ngjale lat anguila gre enchelys as an accepted name for the tribe. Also he mentions Thalloczy and Mayer 1959 but also Demiraj later for taulanti as alb dallandyshe/dallëndyshe (ushe yshe suffix) (swallow (bio. bird) )(ushe yshe suffix) I have seen Demiraj and he aproves it and he analyse it with au-a change in Alb such as aurum-ar (gold) and ALb nt-nd change such as cantare-këndoj (sing) according so to Alb lang rules. Aigest (talk) 08:08, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * For Ethnonyms (tribe names) I want to list here some, but for most we have List of Illyrian tribes which can be linked to and which should have the suggested etymologies. Years ago when i was studying dalland- ("swallow") and names for the bird in other languages, I notice that in Greek the name for the bird is 'chelidonis' (*khelidwon<<PIE *ghel-"to call out, make noise") which means "noisy" (not noisy bird, just "noisy", bird implied). I don't remember now, but I had more data from different languages that led me to wonder whether "dalland" used to mean "noisy, loud" (from a different root, not *ghel-, there are others like it, *kel-"to shout" etc.), and Taulanti may have been a reference to a war-cry (loud, noisy); rather than a totem animal (however symbolic animals may have been popular among illyrians). For Enchelees, it looks to be a Greek translation of a native Illyrian term? What is the etymology of "dalland' anyway?Alex (talk) 08:17, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Dallandyshe- (swallow bird) As far as I remember now sometimes Greek called Taulanti tribe as chelidoni,(if ia am not wrong) I had to see which greek author said that. as for Wilkes as usual he gives no references for chelidoni here also taulanti I don't know how Wilkes come to Chelidoni-snail man?!?! Aigest (talk) 08:25, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

here is an interesting link for the mixing in old greek historians chelidoni-taulanti Aigest (talk) 08:35, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Bardus, Bardos, Barzo, Barzidihi(?) Bardyllis(?) Bardulis(?)
Summarizing above debate it could be explained as white, bright or beard (fullstop:)) Aigest (talk) 10:25, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I will look for more data. In Venetic there is attested a name Barbius. I was looking through the Italian surname database, and the names "Barzo" and "Barzio" are rare but concentrated in the Duchy of Milan (now western Lombardy), but I don't know if those names are connected. For Barzo in Illyrian I want to find out where it is attested. Also I found some Laido surnames in northern Apulia only (I found another Italian with that surname Laido residing at Fiorenzuola D'Arda). I wonder if there is a connection between Italian Laido (found mostly in northern Apulia?) and the Illyrian forms, but I have no info on that. Alex (talk) 22:30, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I will collect the Thracian forms (all referenced so far as considered to derive from *bhereg-"white, bright"). Berzas (I think this has other eymologies suggested also), Berzobis, Berzana, etc. So far Thracian shows Berz-. Alex (talk) 00:12, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Also in Lombardy (where the surnames Barzo & Barzio are) and one in Umbria, the following toponyms (hamlets):


 * Barza, comune of Ispra - province: Varese - region: Lombardy


 * Barzago, comune of Barzago - province: Lecco - region: Lombardy


 * Barzana, comune of Barzana - province: Bergamo - region: Lombardy


 * Barzaniga, comune of Annicco - province: Cremona - region: Lombardy


 * Barzano', comune of Barzano' - province: Lecco - region: Lombardy


 * Barzesto, comune of Schilpario - province: Bergamo - region: Lombardy


 * Barzio, comune of Barzio - province: Lecco - region: Lombardy


 * Barzizza, comune of Gandino - province: Bergamo - region: Lombardy


 * Barzola, comune of Angera - province: Varese - region: Lombardy


 * Barzona, comune of Calasca Castiglione - province: Verbano-Cusio-Ossola - region: Piedmont


 * Barzotti, comune of Citta' di Castello - province: Perugia - region: Umbria


 * ---Alex (talk) 01:45, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Skerd
The Illyrians used sica (knife, short sword) and sybina (spear) as their weapons and this is attested by many. Thracians also used sica as their weapon. Could Skard be an axe? Or there is another explanation of Skerd? Aigest (talk) 10:28, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Look what else I found: I'll link it in Perseus in a second: Scardus, name of a mountain in Illyria;Scardia, mentioned by App. Herb 19 as a name for a plant, the Aristolochia. Now see the root Sker-, "to cut": derived from that root are words meaning "sword"; also from that root is Germanic *skrub- (shrub), "rough plant"); Old Norse "sker" meaning "sharp rock, reef" (Scardus mountain?) I will look into this. Alex (talk) 10:42, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Scardus mons in Albanian has given Sharr (Mali i Sharrit, between Kosovo and Macedonia) which etymologically in Alb means (saw) while sure sharr (saw) is for cutting:) but this is mine opinion:) Aigest (talk) 10:52, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, so I think Scerdis meant "sword" or "ax" or something similar in Illyrian (PIE *sker-). And "Laidas" meant renowned. I will look for common names of the Aristolochia, if people around the world call it something bitter or sharp or something: "Many Aristolochias contain the alkaloid aristolochic acid and other components. All of these plants are highly toxic, especially to the kidneys. Avoid herbal supplements containing members of this genus. Incorrect doses can cause vomiting, pain and even death." That sounds like a bitter plant I guess. Alex (talk) 10:59, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

As I see mallory apart from /(s)ker/ (cut, defecate, hop about, locust, quick) there is /sker/ (jump) and /sker/ (threaten) and also kerd-/skerd/ (defecate, defile, stain) Aigest (talk) 12:30, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I think here we are dealing *sker- "to cut". Look at what else I found: there is an Italian surname Scardia and it is heavily (look at the map, the concentration there is astounding) concentrated in the Heel of Italy (Apulia), where the Iapyges once dwelt. to see the map, type Scardia in the search engine, where it says "Cognome". Alex (talk) 12:44, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

That was very interesting (many connect Messapians and their names and placenames with Illyrians, so it could be a connection with Scardus mons toponym which is mentioned in Illyria) I don't know for Italian side but the mountain Sharr is actually a very long ridge with many peaks, actually looking like a saw. Aigest (talk) 12:58, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I googled for an Italian word "scardia" and I found nothing, and I looked in an Italian dictionary and found nothing (it is not a comprehensive dictionary, but anyway). So the Italian surname may not derive from any Italian word. In Wikipedia I searched "Scardia" and found the Italian surname as the surname of an astronomer, Marco Scardia (no article, but he seems to have an asteroid named after him, Scardia). Here I found mention of a place in Italy: Scardia, Italy (a person on the list gives their residence as "Scardia, Italy"), but I found nothing else on the web about that. Alex (talk) 13:12, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * For more about Skerd- meaning "sword", check the etymology of the English word scabbard, which derives from Germanic *sker-berg, "sword protector" (sker (sword) from the same PIE *sker-, "to cut", and -berg from *bhergh-, "to protect, hide"). This etymology is standard, in my Calvert Watkins reference. See also : scabbard, from Anglo-Fr. *escauberc "sheath, vagina" (13c.), probably from Frank. *skar "blade" (cf. O.H.G. scar "scissors, blade, sword") + *berg- "protect" (cf. O.H.G. bergan "to protect"). The PIE root for Germanic "scar" (sword) is given in my Watkins reference as *sker-"to cut", though www.etymonline doesn't have that info (check Pokorny or something). Some forms from *sker- that I see in Watkins are: Germanic *skardaz, "a cut", source of the word shard; *skerd- source of the word "short"; etc. I feel that my gloss of Skerdis is correct, considering the data uncovered, such as Scardus mons ("sharp rocks, peaks") and how it fits in. The hypothesis: Skerdilaidas was the Illyrian Eckbert, and Skerdis was Eck. Now Bardylis I'm not sure; if it derives from *bhereg, "white, bright", then the meaning in Illyrian probably was more like "bright" as in the Germanic name Bert. But that -ulis at the end, I really doubt that it meant "star". "White star" unless there is some reason for that name strikes me as ludicrous. I'm trying to find that exact suffix (-ulis/-ylis) in other Illyrian names. Alex (talk) 11:46, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I found Lithuanian and Latvian skerd- "cut" examples also (Ltv. skürdî, ‘split up, cut up'), and Slavic: Russ. oskórd “big hatchet”, skorodá “harrow”, etc. from *sker, "to cut". In Polish I found a discussion of a rare Polish surname, "Skoroda"; the person looked up "skoroda" in a Polish dictionary: "None of my sources on Polish surnames mention Skoroda or any likely variant. I see in my dictionary, however, that skoroda is a popular term for woodruff, an herb (genus Asperula)." When I read this I went to the woodruff article here and found out about the woodruff: "each seed is covered in tiny hooked bristles which help disperse the seed by sticking temporarily to clothing and animal fur." So again a plant name from this root, skoroda, as in the case of scardia. "Skerdi-"/"Skerdis" here didn't mean "herd" or "group" in Illyrian ( I have Lithuanian and Latvian and Slavic cognates for Skerd-, "to cut" also see above, so that Lithuanian "herdsman" word is not convincing in the least). See also Albanian sharrë, a cutting tool (saw). Alex (talk) 01:46, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Also in Albanian:


 * Albanian form: shkorre(t) {1} [f/m] (tg)

Meaning: bush, shrub

Proto-Albanian: ²kŒr-

Other Alb. forms: shkoze¨ [f] (tg) `{2} woodrush, hornbeam, Carpinus betulus'

Page in Demiraj AE: 362

IE reconstruction: (s)Ker(H)-


 * ---And for my gloss of Laidas there is quasi-IE (source of proto-Albanian) *Lutio at least, while for "leader" there is what cognate? And in Illyrian I think leader would most likely be with a -tor suffix (Venetic Tomator, Plaetor-, Tutor; Illyr. Domator, Plator, etc.; in Latin the word for leader is Ductor, Auctor), while Laidas (adj. famous, renowned, as in the name Cleitus) looks more adjectival: Glaukias (adj. gray-blue, glaring). In Latinate/Pannoni inscriptions it is Laidus, compare to adjectival names in Latin Rufus (reddish), Statius (stable) etc. Alex (talk) 02:25, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * According to well-known sound changes in those Slavic languages (goroda<--*gorda-*garda, like Albanian gardh, same root), that Polish scoroda is from an earlier *scorda--->*scarda, as in Scardia, the plant name mentioned in a Latin source. Here are more Alb. cognates from Sker, to cut: alb. shkjer `rei­e auseinander', harr (*skor-n-) `schneide aus, j„te', tshar `verderben, verwµsten, sich trennen', tsharte¨s `Scharfrichter', dehnstufig korr, kuarr (*kŒr-n-¡) `schneide ab, ernte' Alex (talk) 03:56, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

That is the Skerd has something to do with cutting, but what I am confused here is that Illyrians used sica, Thracians also used sica. In armies of that time the spear (sybina) and a short sword more like a big knife (sica) was the standard armament. Could it be that Illyrians had two different words for sword, or this was another cutting instrument (saw, sickle, adze, axe)? Aigest (talk) 06:18, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Not a saw or sickle; maybe a sword (bigger than an Illyrian/Thracian sica; sica is attributed to both, that is correct) or ax. Sica is from another root (*sek-), so this is not so much a linguistic question, rather it's just that no surviving Greek/Roman texts mention a Skerdis. But obviously Illyrians had many weapons with many names/words for them, and only like two (?) are named in writings. Alex (talk) 06:26, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

As I remember from archaeology Illyrians had a long sword, propably borrowed from Celts look at the fig 17 and the above comment in this link and maybe they borrowed the name also. But appart from this they had different kinds of swords as discoveries differ from one region to other, many were straight swords, with while sica might have been a curved one Aigest (talk) 06:57, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * If someone was to tell me, a supernatural being, "Alex, I know what Skerdis meant. Which root do you think it derives from, the same root as the English word herd or the same root as the English word shard (*sker, "to cut")? If you are wrong, I'll cut off your toes on one foot." I would say the same root as shard (*sker-, to cut). And I don't think it was a Celtic loanword. Alex (talk) 07:28, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Yep even in my opinion it is Illyrian, but since this kind of long sword was "borrowed" from celts,(see above the link I provided central europe style) we can not let out the possibility of a celtic loan exactly for that sword, saying that for sure Illyrians must have had a IE word for cutting and maybe they applied that to that particular sword although they used more sica as their standart armament (or may be they used both skard and sica but sica was more a terrible weapon, judging from appearance:)) or in my opinion as I know of military this kind of long sword was in use by the Illyrian cavalry (cavalry didn't used short swords, propably called sica) and that would have explained that the sica (used from Illyrian pirates and foot soldiers who actually clashed with Romans) remained in Latin recordings while as far as I remember the Illyrian cavalry never clashed with Romans (if I am not wrong) and that would explain this absence on Latin records (although it can not explain why it is missing in Greek records since there are records of Illyrian cavalry clashing with Macedonians and Greek troops). Aigest (talk) 07:53, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, and Greeks had to watch out for illyrian arrows too right? what's the illyrian word for arrow in Greek texts? For the illyrian ax? Alex (talk) 07:58, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't know what to say about Greek sources, that was some kind of explanation, why in Latin they are clearly stated illyrii restant sicis sybinisque fodentes while Greeks have no recording of Illyrian arms at all (unless they use greek terms for Illyrian weapons, an old habit this one:)).Aigest (talk) 08:05, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * And I don't recall a word recorded for the Thracian longsword, which they had plenty of, I'm sure. There is Rhomphaia, a word recorded because the weapon was distinctive and probably not used by Greeks; but I don't remember a Thracian word recorded for longsword in Greek or Latin texts, or ax, or spear? The rhomphaia is not exactly a spear. Alex (talk) 08:10, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Before making any definite conclusion we should look for the original form it was Scerd, Skerd or Scard, Skard because they could have different meanings while Scardis is noted as Illyrian toponym and if we have Scerd than it could be different from Scard since in pretty much same area (South Illyria) we have different wovels. a-e. Up to now /sker/ is connected with cut and shrub (also may be bushes had thorns and that connect it with cut:)). Aigest (talk) 08:44, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Of course in science you have to go over data very carefully and think out numerous problems & scenarios. And at this website, no original research in the articles. But I myself do not give much consideration to the herd (PIE *kerdh-, "herd") suggestion. The English word shrub derives from Sker-, "to cut", I checked. As for different vowel sounds, kerdh/and sker- I think are the same. In English (within the same Anglo-Saxon line) there are different vowel reflexes, I'll post them. And in Albanian also, Pokorny derives hirrë from Sker- also, and even if that's wrong, I still think there are variant examples in Albanian. A variation that is more problematic is Laidus/Laetus vs Lutio (quasi-IE Alb.), PIE *lēu- (note the long ē). Alex (talk) 09:01, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually in Albanian the word for shrub is /shkurre/ (bush, shrub) it is very similar whith Alb. /shqyer/ (riped out) Alb. /shqerr/ ->/çjerr/ (lacerate, tear up) or Alb. /shkoze/ (bush type Carpinus betulus) in the end all connected with cut meanings.

But another interesting meaning is Alb Shqerr (lamb, kid) even this derived from PIE /(s)Ker(H)-/ could it be connected with Krahe explanation (herd)? Aigest (talk) 09:58, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I assume because a lamb/kid is small (cut short, a shard), PIE *sker-. But Skerdis meaning lamb? Skerdilaidas, lamb leader, leading lambs to the slaughter? Or Famous lamb? Famous short guy? I don't see it. And you know, it's not just my data: "herd-leader", "leader of a detachment" doesn't sound as fear-striking as Famous Sword(man)/Ax(man). That's an intimidating name, to face him:Famous Sword. Alex (talk) 10:03, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I have my hypothesis and I will see if it gets more results. Long e-->ai. So for example, the attested Illyrian names Paio/Paiio may derive from PIE *pē-, "to hurt". Daetor (Daitor) may be from PIE *dē-, "to bind". Daetor, 'The Binder', 'the Trapper' (Greek detos, a fetter, trap, net. Maybe he specialized in throwing nets on the battlefield, or he was a hunter who used nets/traps; or of course maybe there is a totally different etymology.Alex (talk) 10:30, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

It could be small or shorty, cutted, or scarred also, for that we should check the meaning of Laidas. Aigest (talk) 10:36, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * yeah man, research whatever way you want, I find it an interesting hobby, etymology. Alex (talk) 11:03, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I think I'm right about this one however(Bardylis is not clear though...). But for Skerdilaidas: I found that in Old Prussian, a Scurdis was a pickaxe/mattock . While skoroda (harrow) is reconstructed as Scorda, maybe earlier Scarda, since a--->o in Slavic is well known. Alex (talk) 09:08, 7 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The Lithuanian word for "beard" is barzda, the Latvian word is barda, in Old Prussian "bordus". So if as I think a Scerdis was a sword/ax or something similar (singular noun ending in -is), maybe a Bardulis was also a singular noun ending in -is (the -is ending in Illyrian was more often not indicative of a singular noun, but Scerdis and maybe other examples shows that it could be in some cases, the same caes with -us)? Little beard? Little ax? I have to check the Messapic personal name and some other stuff. Alex (talk) 09:47, 7 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I found also a Laconian with the name Sthenelaidas, which according to my theory would mean "renowned for his strength" (sthenos, sthene- meant "strong, mighty" in Ancient Greek). Alex (talk) 20:58, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Maybe /laidas/ is from Greek influence the original name Skerd and then laidas was added. Which is the meaning in Greek for laidas? Aigest (talk) 07:31, 22 June 2009 (UTC)


 * As we saw earlier, in Greek there's nothing for that laid- form besides obscure glosses/rare words such as laidon, "renowned" and that other word meaning "insolent" (which doesn't fit these names). I looked through Perseus and my Liddel & Scott book. I connect laidas to laidon (=euonumon), and its presence in Spartan (far from Illyrians, but the Dorians migrated from the north) & Illyrian (see also Laedo, Laedus etc.) is mysterious. Anybody else have more info on this? Did Cabej & that other linguist not know about Sthenelaidas? It's likely they didn't, he's not exactly famous these days. Alex (talk) 21:53, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

The original explanation was from Hans Krahe then Çabej gave another one. I had to check again Krahe's work. Aigest (talk) 06:46, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

are you sure that sthenelaidas is connected to all those 'illyrian' '-laidas' names and that its not just a coincidence? sthenelaidas looks like sthenelaos (strength+people) with the addition of west greek '-idas' indicating descent (east greek '-ides') so sthenela-idas is the descendant of sthenelaos ?87.202.6.103 (talk) 01:02, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * No, I'm not "sure", I just recently came across this -laidas stuff. However some points to clarify: I have so far found only Skerdilaidas in an Illyrian compound (I don't know of any other Illyrian -laidas examples in a compound), and only that Greek Sthenelaidas so far. Your explanation of Sthenelaidas sounds plausible but not mandatory, if you have some references for that explanation please share, because we are in need of more info here. I checked and Sthenelaos is attested as an anc. Greek name, but I don't know enough about the forms to say whether Sthenelaidas as "son of Sthenelaos" is possible. Can we find other anc. Greek name -laidas examples, or Illyrian for that matter? One way to test the idea is to look for Archelaidas from Archelaos, Pterelaos etc. and in google I did find Archelaidas, but I don't know whether that's derived from -laos or whether it is just a different compound (arche+laidas; arche+laos). Also, Sthenelaos may be a spurious variant (in google) of Sthenelos (does -los represent laos there?). Alex (talk) 10:55, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

The names Laidas and Laidon are attested among South Illyrians in Durrachium (Durrës) cemeteries. Aigest (talk) 14:20, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah I mentioned that further above a couple of times. However Skerdilaidas is the only compound with -laidas that I've come across in Illyrian so far, but I don't have access to many of the attested Illyrian names. Skerdis is also attested on its own as a name, which I think is probably etymologically the same as Skerdi- in Skerdilaidas: but I don't know so obviouusly, I was tying together data and posting ideas. Above I made a minor error in haste, Scardus is not attested as a personal name on its own, just as a toponym AFAIK. I was skimming through the book too quick and made a mistake there. With Sthenelos, Stheneloas, do we have verification that -ides (son of) is also found as -idas? I don't remember. Alex (talk) 15:15, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

sthenelos and sthenelas..there exists this variation as well..are Kurznamen, abbreviated names, of sthenelaos. -ides/-idas is pretty common, off the top of my head aischylos -> aishcylides/aischylidas (both occur!) so a derivation of sthenela(w)os -> sthenela(w)idas looks pretty straightforward. laidas as a noun on its own also means a shield made of hide but thats probably coincidental85.73.228.255 (talk) 15:32, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Ok, according to a link I found Sthenelos and Sthenelaos are both found in the Iliad (variants of the same person's name I think), so Sthenelaos is not spurious. I found Archelaidas in a google search (Archelaos). Well it's not clear yet, whether Skerdilaidas is not part of that Greek -laidas cluster, which looks to be from -laos. However, Sthenelaos then would mean "Strength of the people" (this works as a name)? "Strong people"? (doesn't really work) Alex  (talk) 15:41, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * theres also nikolaidas (nikolaos), philolaidas (philolaos), ksenolaidas (ksenolaos), agesilaidas (agesilaos) etc.85.73.228.255 (talk) 15:48, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * though im strictly speaking about greek names like sthenelaos here, not the illyrian 'laidas' ones. though, is it impossible that both languages inherited lawos? we know phrygian also inherited it, not from greek but directly from pie. perhaps these are related...85.73.228.255 (talk) 15:53, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Even if my suggestion about Skerdis is correct (Old Prussian Skurdis, "mattock" etc.), it is compatible with *Skerdilaos I suppose, "Sword of the people", as Nikolaos means "Victory of the people". :)? Alex (talk) 17:24, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Dasius, Dazaios, Dazas, Dazos
As far as I remember these (and other forms) are attested among Illyrians, Messapians and Thracians. Aigest (talk)


 * Some other forms: Daizo (Thracian), Dasimius (?; Venetic), Dasant- (stem found in Venetic). Also found with -menes/-menos attached at the end, which looks to derive from PIE *men-, "to think". Have you found any etymologies for this Das-/Daz- element? I don't recall it being common in Thracian and maybe the attestations are in/near Illyric lands, and is of Illyrian/Messapic/Venetic origin borrowed into Thracian? Alex (talk) 00:18, 6 June 2009 (UTC)


 * It doesn't derive from Dat Nigga Daz, that's certain. Alex (talk) 08:06, 6 June 2009 (UTC)


 * An etymology I'm offering for Das-/Daz- is PIE *dens-1, "talent, force of mind; to learn", in many languages assimilated as Das (see examples at *dens-1, in some Daz (?). So Das/Daz meant something like "mentally sharp"? Hence the forms Dasmenus, etc with *men, "to think" attached. That's a little more than a guess. And the Thracian forms probably loans? Alex (talk) 02:17, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually they are connected by some (Mayer, Jokl,Cabej,) with Alb. Dash (ram) from a IE (douseon? I have to see the book now)animal while for others is a derivative from Alb dem (bull) small dem - dash (dhom-es I dont remember exact form I don't have the book with me right now) Aigest (talk) 13:11, 7 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "Actually?" That bull idea looks wrong, and the ram one looks okay, but not that compelling. Is that common in IE, for people to be named Ram? Not common, in Greek and Latin I don't think you'll find that. But the ram idea is better than the bull idea. And I did present my etymlogy impromptu, and I called it "a little more than a guess". Now this ram idea, I'll look into it. Alex (talk) 13:19, 7 June 2009 (UTC)


 * There is no rule that Illyrian has to be like Greek and Latin, they were quite distinct. But Aries (Greek/Latin) and Arnaios (Greek) bring up nothing, very uncommon names for people. Archaeologically, I'd like to see evidence for such an importance of the ram among Illyrians. Alex (talk) 13:42, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

The most popular one traces it back to PIE word for ‘breath, breathing, animal’, *dhouso- (thus St. Mann, Language XXVI 387 and Orel himself) or *duoso- (thus Jokl 1923, 240 f., 329 f. and recently D. Q. Adams in EIEC 82)

I don't know actually Wolf with its derivative forms is used like a name in German languages. Aigest (talk) 13:52, 7 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I like that last one, "breath", as in the person had a lot of Anima (from which derives the words animal, animated, etc.). That one does look good. Ram is okay, but so uncommon in Greek & Latin & I am suspicious of that. Alex (talk) 13:57, 7 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The ram/bull ideas remind me of the speculations that Thracian Byzas (and Illyrian Beuzas?) derive from the IE word for "goat", PIE *bhugo-. Another etymology derives Byzas from PIE *beu-, "to swell", Byzas perhaps meaning "Big man" (cf. Norwegian Bugge, the source of English Big, see Talk:Byzas). Just like I don't accept Krahe or Cabej's ideas for Skerdilaidas, I think Das (ram; from PIE *dheu ?), Das (from breath, PIE *dheu-), Das (from *dens-1) are just speculations so far---to be checked. The thing about PIE *dheu- among the IE languages as my reference states: "The base of a wide variety of derivatives meaning 'to rise in a cloud', as dust, vapor, or smoke, and related to various semantic notions of breath, various (dark) color adjectives, and forms denoting defective perception or wits (because it associated with smokiness, not clarity)." Indeed derived from Dheu- are words such as English Dumb, Dizzy, Dazed, Dull, Dolt, Doze etc. Alex (talk) 04:15, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Here is a Hittite word from one of the roots (dens-1, dens-2) that I'm suggesting for Das-: Hittite daššuš- strong, mighty. That's from dens-2, "dense, thick", as is Greek dasus, "hairy". Just looking at it, it looks more likely than uncommon "ram". Alex (talk) 05:18, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Illyrian suffixes
As far as I remember from an article of Çabej he identifies these Illyrian suffixes related to Albanian


 * ãt Delmates, Daesitiates, Ulciniatae, nameplaces Lamatis, Aemate, while in Alb. /at/ Dem-Demat(bull single-plural), nameplaces Dukat, Filat etc:


 * st- (Tergeste, Ladesta); while Alb. /shtë/ Kopshtë(garden), vëneshtë (vineyard), etc:


 * inium (Delmanion, Ulkinion); Alb /inj/ kërminj(snails), shkëmbinj (cliffs) etc: Aigest (talk) 06:59, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Whatttt

 * All these sources maintain the Albanian-Illyrian language link and its not mentioned in the lead:


 * Leibniz, Gottfried Wilhelm. Albaner - Brife, Hanover, 1705 (E.P.Hamp, On Leibniz's Third Albanian Letter - Zeitschrift fur Balkanologie, Je XVI/1, 1981, M.Reiter, Leibnizen's Albanel - Briefe - Zeitschrift fur Balkanologie Jg. XVI, 1980,) Thunmann, Johann. Untersuchungen über die Geschichte der östlichen europäischen Völker. Laipzig (1774). Kopitar, B.J. Albanische, walachische und bulgarische Sprache. Wien (1829) Hahn, Georg von. Albanesische Studien. Wien (1853). Bopp, Franz. Über das Albanesische in seinen verwandtschaftlichen Beziehungen. Berlin (1855). Camarda, Demetrio. Saggio di grammatologia comparata sulla lingua albanese. Livorno (1864. Camarda, Demetrio. Appendice al Saggio di grammatologia sulla lingua albanese. Prato (1866). Miklosich, Franz: Albanische Forschungen. I: Die slavischen Elemente im Albanischen. Wien (1870). Miklosich, Franz. Albanische Forschugen, II: Die romanischen Elemente im Albanischen. Wien (1870). Meyer, Gustav. Albanesische Studien. I - Wien 1882; III - 1892; V - 1896. Pedersen, Holger. Bidrag til den albanesiske sproghistorie. (Festskrift til Vilhelm Thomsen). Kobenhavn (1894). Pedersen, Holger. Albanesisch 1905. Rom. Jb. IX (1905). Erlangen (1909). Kretschmer, Paul. Einleitung in die Geschichte der griechischen Sprache, (Hyrje në historinë e gjuhës greke), Göttingen, (1896) Kretschmer, Paul. Sprachliche Vorgeschichte des Balkans, (Parahistoria gjuhësore e Ballkanit), Revue Internationale des e'tudes balkaniquee, vol. II (1935) Thumb, A. Altgriechische Elemente des Albanesischen. IF 26 (1926). Sandfeld, Kristian. Linguistique balkanique, problemes et resultats. Paris 1930. Cimochowski, Waclaw. Recherches sur l'histoire du sandhi dans la langue albanaise. LP II, 1950. Cimochowski, Waclaw. Des recherches sur la toponomastique de l'Albanie. LP VIII, 1960. Cimochowski, Waclaw. Pozicioni gjuhësor i ilirishtes ballkanike në rrethin e gjuhëve indoevropiane. SF 1973/2. Lambertz, Maximilian. Lehrgang des Albanischen. Teil I: Albanisch-Deutsches Wörterbuch. Teil II: Albanische Chrestomathie. Teil III: Grammatik der albanischen Sprache (Berlin: Deutscher Verlag der Wissenschaften 1954, Berlin 1955, Halle/Saale 1959). Gjinari, Jorgji. Për historinë e dialekteve të gjuhës shqipe. SF 1968/4. Gjinari, Jorgji. Mbi vazhdimësinë e ilirishtes në gjuhën shqipe. SF 1969/3. Gjinari, Jorgji. Struktura dialektore e shqipes e parë në lidhje me historinë e popullit. SF 1976/3. Gjinari, Jorgji. Dëshmi të historisë së gjuhës shqipe për kohën dhe vendin e formimit të popullit shqiptar. SF 1982/3. Mayer, Antun. Die Sprache der alten Illyrier. B. II. Wien 1959. Tagliavini, Carlo. La stratificazione del lessico albanese. Elementi indoeuropei. Bologna 1965. Mihaescu, Haralambie. Les elements latins de la langue albanaise. RESEE 1966/1-2. Mihaescu, Haralambie La langue latine dans le sud-est de l’Europe. Bucuresti-Paris: Editura Academiei-Les Belles Lettres (1978). Mann, Stuart E.: An Albanian Historical Grammar ; Hamburg : Helmut Buske Verlag, 1977 Çabej, Eqrem. Disa probleme themelore të historisë së vjetër të gjuhës shqipe. BUSHT,SSHSH 1962/4 (In German SA 1964/1). Çabej, Eqrem. Rreth disa Çështjeve të historisë së gjuhës shqipe. BUSHT,SSHSH1963/3 (In Romanian SCL 1954/4). Çabej, Eqrem. Mbi disa rregulla të fonetikës historike të shqipes. SF 1970/2 (In German “Die Sprache”, Wien 1972). Çabej, Eqrem. L'ancien nom national des albanais. SA 1972/1. Çabej, Eqrem. Problemi i vendit të formimit të gjuhës shqipe. SF 1972/4. Çabej, Eqrem. Karakteristikat e huazimeve latine të gjuhës shqipe. SF 1974/2 (In German RL 1962/1). Çabej, Eqrem. Studime etimologjike në fushë të shqipes.; vëll. II, Tiranë 1976. Çabej, Eqrem. Studime etimologjike në fushë të shqipes; vëll. I. Tiranë 1982. Desnickaja, A.V. Albanskij jazyk i ego dialekty. Leningrad 1968. Desnickaja, A.V. Language Interferences and Historical Dialectology Linguistics, EJ088069 (1973) Desnickaja, A.V. Osnovy balkanskogo jazykoznanija, Cast 1. Leningrad: Nauka Press. 1990. Pisani, Vittore L'albanais et les autres langues indoeuropéennes, "Annuaire de l'Institut de philologie et d'histoire orientales etslaves", t. X, Bruxelles, 1950 Pisani, Vittore. Les origines de la langue albanaise. SA 1964/1. Pisani, Vittore. Sulla genesi dell'albanese. Akten Innsbruck (1972). Ajeti, Idriz. La presence de l'albanais dans les parlers des populations slaves de la Peninsule Balkanique а la lumiere de la langue et de la toponymie. SA 1968/2. Ajeti, Idriz. Për historinë e marrëdhënieve të hershme gjuhësore shqiptare-sllave. SF 1972/4. Ölberg, Hermann. Einige Uberlegungen zur Autochtonie der Albaner auf der Balkanhalbinsel. Akten Innsbruck (1972). Ölberg, Hermann. Kontributi i gjuhësisë për çështjen e atdheut ballkanik të shqiptarëve. SF 1982/3. Domi, Mahir. Prapashtesa ilire dhe shqipe, përkime dhe paralelizma. SF 1974/4. Domi, Mahir. Considerations sur les traits communs ou paralleles de l'albanais avec les autres langues balkaniques et sur leur etude. SA 1975/1. Katicic, Radoslav. Ancient languages of the Balkans (Trends in linguistics). The Hague and Paris: Mouton. (1976). Riza, Selman. Studime albanistike. Pristina 1979. De Simone, Carlo. Gli illiri del Sud. Tentativo di una definizione. “Iliria” (Tiranë) 1986/1. Banfi, Emanuele. Linguistica balcanica. Bologna 1985. Banfi, Emanuele. Storia linguistica del sud-est europeo. Milano 1991. Huld, Martin E. Basic Albanian etymologies. Columbus, OH: Slavica Publishers. (1984). Buchholz, Oda / Fiedler, Wilfried: Albanische Grammatik ; Leipzig  : VEB Verlag Enzyklopädie, (1987) Pellegrini, Giovan Battista : I rapporti linguistici interadriatici e l’elemento latino dell’albanese në: Abruzzo. Rivista dell'Istituto di Studi Abruzzesi XIX, 1980 Pellegrini, Giovan Battista : Disa vëzhgime mbi elementin latin të shqipes (Some observations over the latin element of the Albanian language), in: SF 1982/3 Pellegrini, Giovan Battista : Avviamento alla linguistica albanese (Edizione rinnovata) (1997) Demiraj, Shaban. Gjuha shqipe dhe historia e saj. Shtëpia botuese e librit universitar (Tirane) 1988. Demiraj, Shaban. Fonologjia historike e gjuhës shqipe. (Akademia e Shkencave e Shqiperise. Instituti i Gjuhesise dhe i Letersise) TOENA (Tirane), 1996 Demiraj, Shaban. Prejardhja e shqiptarëve në dritën e dëshmive të gjuhës shqipe. Shkenca (Tirane) 1999 Demiraj, Shaban. Gramatikë historike e gjuhës shqipe. (Akademia e Shkencave e Shqiperise. Instituti i Gjuhesise dhe i Letersise) 2002 Demiraj, Shaban. Gjuhësi Ballkanike. (Akademia e Shkencave e Shqiperise. Instituti i Gjuhesise dhe i Letersise) 2004

(Interestedinfairness (talk) 00:50, 16 June 2009 (UTC)).


 * Whether it should be in the lead is something I leave to others. Obviously it will have to be phrased in encyclopedic style if it is in the lead. More important to most readers and to me, what is the best evidence for the theory? That should be highlighted. Alex (talk) 05:21, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

A short summary of the arguments can be seen here:

The origin of Albanians ''The origins of the Albanians cannot be separated from the problem of assigning their linguistic ancestors to one of the three main groups of the Balkans:Dacians, Thracians, or Illyrians. Although there are some lexical items that appear to be shared between Romanian (and by extension Dacian) and Albanian, by far the strongest connections can be argued between Albanian and Illyrian. The latter was attested in what is historically regarded as Albanian territory since our records of Illyrian occupation. The loanwords from Greek and Latin date back to before the Christian era and suggest that the ancestors of Albanian must have occupied Albania by then to have absorbed such loans from their historical neighbours. As the Illyrians occupied Albanian territory at this time, they are the most likely recipients of such loans. Finally as Shaban Demiraj argues the ancient Illyrian placenames of teh region have achieved their current form through the natural application of the phonetic rules governing Albanian eg Durrachion>Alb Durrës(with Albanian initial accent) or Illyrian Aulona> Alb Vlonë`Vlorë (with Albanian rhotacism in Tosk) (page 11) Encyclopedia of Indo-European culture By J. P. Mallory, Douglas Q. Adams Edition: illustrated Published by Taylor & Francis,'' 1997 ISBN 1884964982, 9781884964985

There are other arguments such as dialect split (phonetic rules of the dialect such as rhotacism etc are not seen in Slavic loans), phonetic rules separating Albanian from Thracian(o-a change, different treatment of labiovelars in Thracian and Albanian) etc. For more details here.

But I have to say that all the linguists agree that we have not enough Illyrian data, they are so scarse just to put Illyrian in IE language not allowing any direct link (some words are not enough to declare a link) with other languages. That is the reason that the link is created by deduction from arguments such as Greek loans, Latin loans, Illyrian place names, which are interpreted in a more historical and geographical matter (pre-christian Doric Greek loans=>Illyrians laying NW of Greece, pre-christian Latin loans=> Illyrians first occupied by Romans in the Balkans 229 BC, Illyrian placenames following Alb language rules=> Albanians always lived there, dialect split before Slavs entered that area=>Albanians in that area before Slavs) so these linguistic arguments at the end make sense historically and geographically, but not considered as classical linguistic arguments linking Albanian directly to Illyrian language, (phonetic rules, gramatical structures etc) since we have practically nothing left from Illyrian and possibly we will never discover any single Illyrian sentence just to see how they used the verb, names, adjectives etc. That's why Woodard 2008 says that:

''The modern Albanian language it has been conjectured, is descended directly from ancient Illyrian. Its possible affiliation with the scantily attested Illyrian, though not unreasonable on historical and linguistic grounds, can be considered little more than conjecture barring the discovery of additional Illyrian evidence.'' (page 8) The Ancient Languages of Europe By Roger D. Woodard Edition: illustrated Published by Cambridge University Press, 2008 ISBN 0521684951, 9780521684958

Hope I was clear. Bests Aigest (talk) 07:25, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * We will see what happenes with the lead, I would prefer to have other editors tackle that. I remember the above arguments from past reading: the indirect arguments (Doric nature of Greek loans, transmission of toponyms and a few other arguments)---I do not know whether Doric speakers were a sizable population in the Greece of the Dark Ages in that area, if one wants to posit a Thracic population or a creole of the last Thracians and Illyrians moving onto lands that were in proximity to Doric speakers. Thracians have been attested in northern Bosnia, Dardania, Paeonia (Paeonians often consfused with Thracians) etc. etc. so arguments against Thracian really have to be solid. I know that a lot in this field is not solid. For example, Andizetes: which User:FlibJib8 from Katicic's book placed as possibly showing a satemization of PIE *dheigh-, "to knead clay, build, etc." However, I read elsewhere that Andizetes is a variant of Andisetes, which looks to be derived from the common Illyrian name Andis and has nothing to do with PIE *dheigh-...Alex (talk) 10:32, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Exactly for the reason the scarcity and of dubious data none is trying to link them directly, but uses other arguments. Even arguments for Thracian origin are based on a number of similar words between Albanian and Romanian, and not Albanian and what remains of Thracian (very very few Thracian words related to Albanian, and just remember that Thracian language left more data than Illyrian did), so in the end it came to the Albanian language itself.

Frankly speaking I don't care about the lead here for the moment, I am more interested in bringing as much as possible material on Illyrian language in this article. After we bring no more materials is the time to speak about the lead.

As for the Doric nature of Pre-Christian Greek loans the arguments was that the Greek cities on Illyrian coast Durrachium, Apolonia etc belonged to NW dialect of Greeks and also the Epirot area (if it was Greek, which I personally doubt) had the NW dialect of Greeks so that put the loans in that area, around Greek cities in Illyrian soil, or around Epirot area. Both cases point to Illyrians. Aigest (talk) 11:02, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Until when was there a sizable population of Doric speakers in the area? That is an important question. If they lingered on late then Thracic people would have encountered a population of Doric speakers. Alex (talk) 11:08, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Durrës was found in 627 BC see here and Apolonia was found in 588 BC see here as for the map of NW dialect of Greek here Later the cities entered the Roman rule after the first Illyrian war 229 BC and later were eventually Latinized especially Durrës.

But the point is that the loans are dated pre-christian for ex makhana-mokën/mokër where you can see a-o change (mater-motër) and voiced aspirates kh-k, changes that have affected only Ancient Greek and inherited old IE words of Albanian vocabolary and not even Latin loans. So the time of those loans was up to the Romans entered that area Aigest (talk) 11:27, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Allegedly pre-Christian, that's what I'm questioning. So I want to find out how late Northwest/Doric Greek held out against Koine Greek (there was a Northwest Greek Koiné in Northwest Greece) there. Alex (talk) 11:40, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "very very few Thracian words related to Albanian, and just remember that Thracian language left more data than Illyrian did". Thracian did leave more data than Illyrian, however your statement that "very very few Thracian words related to Albanian", that is something I want to clarify by going to the sources, because there are as I remember a nice amount, possibly exceeding the Illyrian-Albanian correspondances; or about the same amount. Alex (talk) 11:18, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Ok, but no OR for that:) Aigest (talk) 11:27, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

And please remove those who are attested also in Illyrian;) Aigest (talk) 11:30, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * No need for OR here, there are plenty. Alex (talk) 11:40, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

OK homework for us, attested Thracian words (not Illyrian, not believed to be Thracian, just attested in what remain of Thracian data) related to Albanian. Aigest (talk) 11:57, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, not also found in Illyrian (regardless of whether they are of Thracian origin or not, that can be hard to tell), from actual Thracian remains, no OR etc. I will eventually show much more sourced Albanian-Thracic cognates in the Thracian language article. Here is more info for that debate about "-ul(l)is/-yl(l)is" (in Bardylis), whether it's a suffix. It does look like a suffix: see also Doric Greek: arbylis (singular noun; in Attic Aryballos; you'll find arbylis listed in the Doric Greek article, in the Laconian section; see also ), myrtalis (singular noun), etc. In Thracian, there was a similar suffix in names: Coryllus (attested, actual form may have been *Scoryllus), Beithylus, etc. I will also soon detail Thracian presence near Greek lands, Boeotian Thracians etc. when I have time. I do like Thracians more than Illyrians, that's how I feel. Yet I don't feel much of a connection for Dacians in particular, I like south Thracians more. Albanians when they think about these topics understandably incline towards Illyrians and/or Pelasgians. That is to be expected. Established research has not reached any consensus or come up with anything very definite here, as an editor when I edit here I do represent those who are skeptical of the Illyrian-Albanian theory, but my skepticism is a desire to determine the linguistic truth in this case. In my Calvert Watkins PIE root reference I have old notes of mine in pencil, one note from 2004 is next to PIE *bhereg-"white, bright", where I wrote: "source of Thracian, Dacian, Illyrian bard-/berz- forms", so back then I was thinking that Illyrian "bard-" derived from *bhereg-. It is not advisable to rely on belief too much in linguistics though, and in 2009 I leave that pencil note there to show my ideas back then, but I don't believe that bard- in Bardylis derives from *bhereg- in 2009 (if I believed that in 2004)---I don't know, maybe, maybe not. And for "white star", I would need to read a linguistic essay about such an etymology to make me see it as likely. Alex (talk) 12:28, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

To me it seems that αρύβαλλος (Aryballos not Arbylis) is more conected with αρύβας (Arrybas the Epirote king while Arbylis might have been Illyrian, in the same area Butrint we have an Illyrian personal name Arbon, while Arbon city, arbonios, arbonites form for Illyrians are attested since 2nd century BC to 6th century AD by Greek historians) so the which is the suffix αρύβα(λλο)ς, αρύβ(αλλ)ος)? (while (ος) is common for greek words) or maybe there is no suffix at all Aigest (talk) 13:14, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * In Hesychius there is an entry for arbylis (singular noun), a Laconian word that meant Lekythos; that is Hesychius' entry. The Attic correspondance is Aryballos. Other instances of the suffix, I'll look for them. There is also arubassalon, which meant "kotule" (cup), and kotule also has a -ule suffix. In Arbylis the suffix appears to be -ylis, while Arb/Arub is the root word. By the way, "bagaron" which in the Wiki article (according to FlibJib) is listed as Illyrian is also claimed to be Laconian. Alex (talk) 14:43, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

I would not be surprised if there are Illyrian loanwords in Greek, such as Graboi for eg. Aigest (talk) 12:11, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Sections

 * Why were the Celtic,Thracian,Greek,Latin sections removed alltogether and not just edited and corrected? Example.


 * Wilkes, J. J. The Illyrians, 1992,ISBN 0631198075,page 84,"... Apart from some names of Thracian origin, Bessus and Teres, and some Celtic names, Arvus, Belzeius, Cambrius, laritus, Lautus, Madussa and Argurianus (either Thracian or Celtic), the only name of south Illyrian origin is Plares. ..."Megistias (talk) 14:30, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Also splitting the sections into these subsections is quite confusing.


 * 6.2 South Illyrian
 * 6.3 Delmatae
 * 6.4 Pannoni Megistias (talk) 14:36, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

External influences section
In this state the summary it is all WP:SYNTH. Moreover the books used as a reference in the summary section are not linguistic books, dealing with the problem in detail, they are historical books giving general opinions. Maybe they can be used in Illyrians article but not in Illyrians language article. Aigest (talk) 08:49, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Wilkes is already being used in the article to indicate Illyrian names.His references in Celtic and other names including Illlyrian ones is supported by linguistic bibliography Megistias (talk) 09:03, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I was not referring to Wilkes which is used in the names section but to the other authors used in the summary section, just before the section where names are listed. Aigest (talk) 09:07, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * If you mean 92 to 98 references they are there to exhibit the rest written in the section.You mean 1-3?Megistias (talk) 09:12, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Exactly, we are on WP:SYNTH there. To me it looks like 93-99. It is better to have a linguistic book speaking on linguistic influences than historical books, which can be based in other sources just like archaeology for eg. That's why I think they can be used in Illyrians while not in Illyrian language article. Hope I was clear Aigest (talk) 09:21, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 92 to 98 establishes the very simple fact of how Celtic and the rest of the influences got there.They didnt receive those influences via linguaphone,heheMegistias (talk) 09:25, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Yep but first you need linguist saying that on this article (those historians might as well gave their opinion based on archaeological findings and this is not the place), second in this state it is WP:SYNTH Aigest (talk) 09:31, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Thats not Synth and we know which names were Celtic as you can see in the article.We are not

going to just list Celtic and other possible names without an introductory summaryMegistias (talk) 09:38, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

We can use Wilkes for that summary section it is ok for me, not the others for the above mentioned reasons Aigest (talk) 09:41, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Bato
Wilkes exact words "the common name Bato may derive from the same root as the Latin battuere meaning to strike or is just as likely to derive from the root bha "say" or "tell" the Latin fari." So the root is IE while Latin meanings are supposed cognates. They are not derived from Latin but from IE root and can be explained (maybe) with remaining Latin words. Hope I was clear Aigest (talk) 09:27, 2 September 2009 (UTC)