Talk:Ilocano language/Archive 1

Overhaul
Dagiti gayyem,

I am renovating the Ilokano language page. I took out stuff that had to with Ilokano culture. Perhaps a separate page for that will do? This page is about the Ilokano language and should deal with that. --Chris 8 July 2005 00:03 (UTC)


 * I agree. another page should be created about the Ilocano culture.

Or Ilokano people. There is one for French people, how about Ilokano people? I mean, the information is all good and I felt guilty getting rid of it. Good information shouldn't be discarded. But there are more appropriate places. --Chris 8 July 2005 07:51 (UTC)


 * hey, no worries. the information is still saved in the history. Ilokano culture or Ilokano people is fine with me. --443


 * I was just looking for such an article (my uncle is married to a beautiful Ilokano woman, and I have three handsome half-Ilokano cousins). By analogy with Spanish people, Japanese people, and so on, I first tried Ilocano people, and then Ilokano people, before I ended up at this article.  It would be a very nice article to have, and as a new article, could be linked from the main page "did you know?" section.  &mdash; Pekinensis 00:26, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Kayatko laeng a maammuan, appo a gagayyem, no sinnoda ti nangikkat kadagiti adu a datos a naikabil ditoy, nangruna ti maipapan iti pagsasao ken literatura, Ilokano authors, agraman dagiti dadduma nga external links. Nakigtotak itay kitaek daytoy a page ket nagadu met ti napukawen! Please, diyo koma met ikkaten ida ta mainugotda met a mairaman iti daytoy a page ti wikipedia ta maipapan la ngarud iti pagsasao a Samtoy. Agyamanak. No kayatdak a kontaken, please email me at rvaragon@gmail.com. --saluyot 26 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Mr. Aragon, siak ti nangikkat. Sori, basbassit laeng ti Ilokok; agsuratakto iti Inggles. The reason is that they would be better placed in a webpage concerning Ilokano literature. Other articles about languages are arranged in this way, Ilokano isn't any different.  I welcome you to make an Ilokano literature and people page. --Chris 06:39, 26 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Chris, agyamanak iti panangisublim kadagiti naikkat a paset. But anyway, this page should only be about the language and not much about the people and culture, and literature. I alredy started an Ilokano literature page and may I just lift some paragraphs here pertaining to Iloko literature? You can then edit them out afterwards, Chris. Thank you! --saluyot 03:17, 26 July 2005 (PHT)


 * Nagmayaten, manong Aragon no nangirugika ti sabali nga artikolo maipangep ti Ilokano literatura. I look forward to reading it. --443 13:56, 26 July 2005 (GMT)


 * Yes, by all means go ahead and lift the paragraphs and transfer. That was my original intention. Dios ti agngina iti cooperationyo. --Chris 07:19, 26 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Agyamanak unay kadakayo, kakabsat. A "prototype" page on Ilokano literature is already started. I hope you can help me develop it by your contributions. Saluyot 07:33, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

Reply to Anonymous User
If you want to talk about the article, come here. To the talk. I am going to address your complaints.


 * Ilokano is uniform for the most part, but linguists recognize that there are two main dialect groups - northern and southern. Huh? Not true. I'm a Native Ilocano and this claim by linguist-wannabe Christopher Sundita is ignorant and false.

Joemaza 01:11, 26 September 2006 (UTC): Chris is published. Makes him a linguist to me. I have a degree in the field and unfortunately, I'm not published.

Yes, I am a wannabe linguist. A more appropriate name is student of linguistics. In any case, the information did not come from me but from an Ilokano expert - Dr. Carl Rubino, who is a linguist that specializing in Philippine languages and is the author of Ilokano books, articles, and a Ph.D. dissertation. And Ilokano is his native language. In his work he writes:

"Two major dialects of Iloko exist, each with minor subdialects which minimally vary in lexicon and intonational patterns. The major dialects are usually categorized by the pronunciation of the pepet vowel /e/, which is pronounced as in the Northern dialects of Ilocos Norte and parts of Ilocos Sur, and as a high, central-back unrounded vowel in Abra, the southern parts of Ilocos Sur, La Union, Tarlac, and Pangasinan."

As you noted, there exceptions to the rule. I interpret this as saying that for the most part there are two Ilokano dialect groups. The northern dialects generally pronounce the "e" in one way, but there are some that pronounce it another way. There is no need for you to get so uptight about this, cool down please.

If you have any problems with this, please contact Dr. Rubino himself. --Chris 22:48, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

PS: Concerning your dislike of Ethnologue. An Ethnologue entry is linked to many languages' pages. Yes, it is outdated. But it shows important information.


 * Yeah, I was also going to say that Ilocano isn't uniform. I only know it from staying with friends in Ilocos Norte, but every time I learnt some Ilocano, I'd go the next village and they'd say, " Oh no, that's the pronunciation in Pasuquin; here we say it blah (including consonant changes, like ha an instead of sa an)." Indeed, my friend could cope with all the regional variations, but her brother had difficulties with people from 15 miles away.
 * I think the problem is in the summarising of Rubino's text: a common enough problem in writing precis! See what you make of my attempted fix. JackyR | Talk 12:06, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * PS Btw, I know it's cheeky of me even to have an opinion among Ilocano speakers, so apologies for that. But like I say, see what you think of the attempted fix. JackyR | Talk 12:09, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

To the anonymous user
Why are you putting my name in the article? We don't sign contributions here at Wikipedia. --Chris 01:10, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Is this vandalism?
I've seen this edit a couple of times now. I know nothing on the subject, so I'd like confirmation that this is vandalism of some kind, and not a good faith edit. I'm hoping the editors experienced with this page can explain for me :-) Dan100 (Talk) 20:56, August 2, 2005 (UTC)


 * There is a disgruntled native Ilokano speaker who is unhappy with my edits. I quote from research done on the language, but he's still unhappy about that. For a while he would insult me in the main article such as here - and that's just one example. Then he began signing my name ... I'm not sure what to do. Now he's just blanking out my edits. He is coming from AOL so it's hardly worth reporting him as a vandal since his IP is on a proxy. --Chris 23:31, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Ilocano etiquette, superstitions
I placed this at lihi:Among people from the north, for example Ilocanos it is considered bad manners or rude to mention anything about animals, for example rats or pigs, when a pregnant woman is around for fear that the offspring may aquire features of the mentioned animal.

Could someone verify ? I experienced this but would like to ask if anyone else experienced the same thing.--Jondel 02:43, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I'd never heard that one before but the other part about the child resembling the food the mother craved for is a superstition among Ilocanos. --443 12:01, August 10, 2005 (UTC)


 * Isn't the child resembpling the craving common among to all, or at least in the Luzon area?--Jondel 00:25, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm not too sure. Maybe someone else can confirm this.--443 02:23, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I'll be removing the Ilocanas part then and say that in some regions....--Jondel 00:41, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
 * From what I observe among Ilokano folks and other peoples like the Tagalogs, Bikolanos, etc., the same belief and tradition about "lihi" ("inaw" in Iloko) is the same. Conceiving Ilokano women until today are warned about the things they crave for because it would affect or resemble their child, for example, they are advised not to crave for dark or black things like the duhat fruit for their child might be dark-skinned. They are advised instead to crave for singkamas or labanos so their child will have fair complexion. This is true to all regions in the Philippines. --Saluyot 03:11, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

Ilokano pronouns
Hey, guys. Got a question about the pronouns chart. I'm from a town called San Esteban in Ilocos Sur and the pronouns that I'm familiar with and use in everyday conversations are slightly different from the ones in the chart. Take a look (the stresses may be incorrect):

Original chart:

I'm just wondering if the ones on the article are the standard pronouns used in formal writing and the pronouns I'm familiar with are conversational only?

thanks.

--443 Tuesday, August 16, 2005 17:44 (UTC)


 * I think, the first chart is for casual conversations while second chart is for formal speech and writing. BTW, I'm from Bauang, La Union. -- bluemask (talk) 00:02, August 17, 2005 (UTC)


 * Right. The first chart is for conversation in some parts of Ilokandia. The same is true with "haan" instead of "saan"; or "adiay" and "didiay" instead of "daydiay" or "idiay"; or of "atoy" or "aytoy" instead of "daytoy", "ayta" instead of "dayta" and so on. But the first chart and the examples I cited can be also used in writing, especially the dialogue in fiction, to preserve the local color of the setting of the story (place) and to present real conversation of characters. --Saluyot 00:56, August 17, 2005 (UTC)


 * Yeah, it's dialectal. It's in Rubino's dictionary, too, along with sikam as a variant of sikami. I wonder if it was influenced by Pangasinan. By all means, go ahead and add those too. Anyway, here are Pangasinan's pronouns:


 * Actually, there is no 'standard Ilocano', so to speak. This is because there is no governing body that regulates the use of this language. But most of the writers follow the conventions used by the magazine 'BANNAWAG'. That is the closest to standard we have now. 61.9.13.66 (talk) 14:40, 20 May 2009 (UTC)


 * {| border="1" cellpadding="2"

! !Absolutive Independent !Absolutive Enclitic !Ergative !Oblique
 * 1st person singular
 * siák
 * ak
 * -k(o)
 * ed siak
 * 1st person dual
 * sikatá
 * ita, ta
 * -ta
 * ed sikata
 * 2nd person singular
 * siká
 * ka
 * -m(o)
 * ed sika
 * 3rd person singular
 * sikató
 * -, -a
 * to
 * ed sikato
 * 1st person plural inclusive
 * sikatayó
 * itayo, tayo
 * -tayo
 * ed sikatayo
 * 1st person plural exclusive
 * sikamí
 * kamí
 * mi
 * ed sikami
 * 2nd person plural
 * sikayó
 * kayó
 * yo
 * ed sikayo
 * 3rd person plural
 * sikara
 * ira, ra
 * da
 * ed sikara
 * }
 * ed sikayo
 * 3rd person plural
 * sikara
 * ira, ra
 * da
 * ed sikara
 * }
 * }


 * --Chris S. 06:29, 17 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I'd seen the Pangasinan pronouns a few days ago and I have also been wondering if "Southern" Ilocano is influenced by Pangasinense. It's quite interesting. --443 08:04, 17 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I believe so. Actually, the very reason why the Abagatan Dialect pronounces the letter 'e' in two different ways is because of the presence of another language in the area. Nasugbu batangas (talk) 06:23, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Dialect groups
The article states that each of the main dialect groups has its own dialect. Surely that can be rewritten to make more sense; it seems circular to me. Chris the speller 20:53, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Number of Ilocano speakers in Hawaii

 * "According to a mainstream daily newspaper published in Honolulu, Hawaii, Ilocanos make up more than 90% of the Filipino population in the whole State of Hawaii, making Ilocano the top Filipino language in demand for public school language teachers."

I'm removing this statement from the article because it is unsourced and seemingly inaccurate. According to the 2000 census, 60,065 people in Hawaii speak Tagalog at home compared to 45,900 people who speak Ilocano at home. While this does not necessarily mean that Ilocanos make up a minority of Hawaii's Filipino population, it does mean that Tagalog is a more dominant language and because this is an article about the Ilocano language, this statement's presence here is not necessary. 青い(Aoi) 11:02, 20 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The claim that ilokanos comprise 90% of the filipino population in hawaii might be accurate. but the sad fact is that many of these ilokanos might not be using/speaking their own iloko language and preferring tagalog language instead. hence, the bigger number of tagalog speakers. Saluyot 13:48, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Grammar
I've started an Ilocano Grammar page. If it (a grammar) is included in the "main" Ilocano page, then the article would just be too long. I've noticed a Tagalog Grammar (was that you Chris?). It would be a better way to go.


 * By all means create a separate page for the grammer but: a) please be consistent as to whether it has a "c" or a "k"! (redirects can be used from the other spelling) and b) chop the text out this article so that we do not have duplication. -- RHaworth 02:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, I left the text in just in case there were some dissent... Also, I think maybe a redirect page might be necessary for all the permutations of the language name. Joemaza 19:31, 26 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, Joe, I made the Tagalog grammar page. And I'd love to see an Ilokano grammar page. Also, I would try to make this Ilokano language page be in line with the language template outlined in WikiProject Language Template.  Anyway, keep up the great work. Naimbag unay ngarud ti ar-aramidem ditoy, pare. --Chris S. 02:53, 26 September 2006 (UTC)


 * A la Wen, a! Kitaek man pay dayta a template a kunam, ngarud. Joemaza 19:31, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Page move
There was a request listed at Requested moves to move and rename this page to Ilocano language, on the grounds that the spelling with the 'c' is more common, and therefore preferable per our policy Naming conventions. I tried a Google test, and "Ilocano" indeed has about 10 times as many hits as "Ilokano", so based on that, and on the request, I'm completing the move. If there's anything being overlooked here, someone will say something presently, I'm sure. -GTBacchus(talk) 08:28, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I reverted the move. The k spelling is used in the publications that are written in the language itself. It is also used in linguistic research about the language. Before moving the page, ask here on the talk page so we can gauge consensus for it. Thanks. And just for reference, there are more hits for Filipinas (29.5 million) than there are for Pilipinas (1.4 million).  However, Pilipinas is the official name of the Philippines. Hope that clears things up. --Chris S. 18:57, 27 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi. I don't see you arguing that "Ilokano" is more common in English language sources.  You seem to be claiming that it's more common in the language itself, and that it's more common in linguistic research.  How is it more recognizable to the majority of English speakers, though?  That's what our policy WP:NAME says we need to go by - not the "official" name, but the most commonly recognized one. -GTBacchus(talk) 20:25, 27 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Just my $0.02... I've searched for any standardization of the English name. What I've found is Iloko per ISO. I'm not saying that there should yet be another change, this time to Iloko, but that 'Ilokano seems to be consistent with the K spelling. Joemaza 22:57, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Damn sans-serif fonts
Is there some way to indicate that this word is spelled starting with I-L, because my computer displays it as two vertical strokes, making it unclear if it's I-I or L-L or what. You have to *assume* that it's capitalized. --Monado (talk) 18:29, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Ilokano vs. Ilocano
I'm confused as to how the language ended up with a K spelling, and yet the people of the Ilocos region itself that speak the language are called Ilocano with a C. Since when did the Ilocano language become "Abakad-ized"? My recollection of Ilocano is that its spelling was closest to Spanish than any other Philippine languages with even the old Spanish letters like rr as in Sarrat, Bacarra and Currimao, the unique ao spellings in Laoag and Caoayan, and all the double letters to indicate stress like in Piddig, Lidlidda, Diffun, Gattaran, etc. Has the Ilocano language lost these letters and spellings when it switched to Tagalog abakada? Why is it that the lyrics to Ilocano songs in my videoke still have these spellings? --RioHondo (talk) 10:22, 5 September 2013 (UTC)


 * There is a tendency now to use the orthography used in the magazine Bannawag. It's mentioned in the article itself. Joemaza (talk) 20:43, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 11 August 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: moved. Clear consensus that the proposed title is the most common name in English. Jenks24 (talk) 18:11, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Ilokano language → Ilocano language – WP:COMMONNAME. Ilocano is the more common spelling in English reliable sources. See Ngrams graph. The people and the language share the same name and spelling in English (and even in Filipino), and this is no different from Tagalog, Cebuano and other Philippine ethnolinguistic groups. RioHondo (talk) 02:13, 11 August 2015 (UTC) --Relisted. George Ho (talk) 17:40, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose. specious. pointless. Shhhhwwww!! (talk) 11:48, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Pointless to the redlinked editor above, but in the English Wikipedia, we use the English WP:COMMONNAME, hence Filipino language not Pilipino language, Cebuano language not Sugbuanon language, French language not Français language, etc.--RioHondo (talk) 12:18, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
 * This is merely an aesthetic choice since both names are equally common and mean the same thing. Shhhhwwww!! (talk) 05:37, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I know right. Philippines and Pilipinas mean the same thing too. Im sure the former was more than just an aesthetic choice. RioHondo (talk) 14:01, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I actually prefer Pilipinas (Republic of Pilipinas) to be used universally. Less letters, less spelling, more aesthetic. Shhhhwwww!! (talk) 22:53, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
 * But not English. — kwami (talk) 19:57, 24 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Support per COMMONNAME, though it doesn't matter too much, as the spellings are close enough to be easily recognized. — kwami (talk) 19:57, 24 August 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Dialects/Regional variations of Ilocano?
To risk reviving the "debate" about Ilocano dialects from 2006 (refer to the earliest sections of the talk page,) I have noticed (albeit only from personal experience) that are differences in the Ilocano spoken in Nueva Vizcaya and that spoken in more Ilocano-dominant provinces, such as Ilocos Norte.

For instance, the word "naimas" in Nueva Vizcayan Ilocano is used to mean "delicious" in the sense of food, but apparently, the same word carries sexual connotations in Ilocos Norte Ilocano (the preferred term being "naraman".) I think it would be interesting to discuss these.

I do not want to add this to the article mainspace because: 1) I couldn't find a reference addressing these differences, 2) I am not a linguist. -- a u t a c o i d (stalk) 10:09, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

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