Talk:Ilya Ivanov

Alleged experiments
I removed all references to alleged experiments in accordance with Verifiability policy. It says that


 * Articles should contain only material that has been published by reputable or credible sources, regardless of whether individual editors view that material as true or false. As counter-intuitive as it may seem, the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. For that reason, it is vital that editors rely on good sources.

According to researchers currently working in Sukhumi (where alleged experiments took place), this story is not true: http://www.newsru.com/russia/20dec2005/stalin.html

Paranoid 01:20, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Removed content: --- He is best remembered for his unsuccessful attempts to create a human-ape hybrid.

Attempt to create a Human-Ape Hybrid
The most controversial of Ivanov's studies was his attempt to create the Human-Ape hybrid. Ivanov started to look for support for the development of the idea in the 1900s, when he wrote letters soliciting support from the owner of Askania Nova, baron F.E. Falts-Fein and the President of Russian Academy of Science, prince Oldenburgsky. Both however rejected the proposal citing ethical problems. Ivanov was even forced to remove references to a possibility of the human-ape hybrid from his book on artificial insemination of the domestic animals. In 1910 he made a presentation on the World Congress of  Zoologists in Graz soliciting support for the work on the human-ape hybrid. He got a proposal from the French Pasteur Institute, indicating they were ready to give Ivanov facilities of the Institute's station in Africa but required him to find financing by himself.

In 1925 Ivanov attempted to gain backing for his projects from the Soviet government. He dispatched letters to the People's Commissar on Education and Science Anatoliy Vasilievich Lunacharsky and the Chairman of Gosplan Alexander Tsuryupa asking for support for the works on the human-ape hybrid. According to him, the future race of human-apes hybrids might be very useful in the military and in the hard physical labour like mining, not to mention its ideological importance for the propaganda of atheism. This time he succeeded as the Soviet Government agreed to commence the work and gave him 15 thousand of US dollars to organize an expedition to Western Africa.

Ivanov planned two types of works: inseminating of female chimpanzees with human sperm and inseminating human females with gorilla and chimpanzees sperm. For the first work he had fifteen female chimpanzees captured, inseminated and transported to the Soviet monkey nursery in Sukhumi. All of them died during their transportation or a during the very first months of their stay in Sukhumi. There were no signs of pregnancy in any of them.

The second part of the experiment involved inseminating native African women with the ape's sperm and transporting them into the Soviet Union. This plan met with political difficulties and was eventually aborted by the orders of the Soviet Government.

On September 30 1929 the Department of Science of Sovnarkom decreed that the experiments of Ivanov should be continued in Sukhumi using at least than five volunteer women. According to some, similar experiments were carried with GULAG inmates as well.

In 1930 the experiments were officially abandoned and on December 13 1930 Ivanov was arrested as an agent of the World Bourgeoisie. His original sentence of five years in Gulag was later commuted to exile to Alma Ata, where he worked for the Kazakh Veterinary-Zoologist Institute until his death on 20 March 1932. The obituary was signed by Ivan Pavlov. There were rumours that he died later and worked after 1932 in some sharashka.

Belgian zoologist Adelmans (sp?) in 1964 aired the story that NKVD finally managed to obtain a human-gorilla hybrid, that grew much faster than human and was able to be educated to be a soldier, but they were almost certainly not true. There are also rumours that Yeti supposedly seen in the Abkazian mountains are somehow products of the experiments in Sukhumy. In fact humans have 46 chromosomes and apes 48 chromosomes, so the possible hybrid would have 47 chromosomes (an odd number) and would not be able to reproduce (the same way as the mule with its 63 chromosomes)

Web references

 * Stalin's Apes - article in Pittsburgh Tribune
 * Stalin sought human-ape super warrior - UPI articlet
 * Article in Zerkalo Nedeli
 * Article in Trud
 * Article in Moskovskiy Komsomomolets
 * Article in KoMok newspaper

--- End of removed content

"Belgian zoologist Adelmans"
This is probably the Belgian cryptozoologist Bernard Heuvelmans. --Cam 01:39, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Restore content
I have no idea whether the fantastic story of Ivanov trying to create an ape-human hybrid is true, but the removal of all info on that idea is a fundamental misunderstanding of our verifiability policy.

This story has apparently been published in at least several relatively credible sources, and is current enough to warrant a detailed denial by his colleagues. Thus the story is notable, whether it is true or not. It should be restored in proper context, with discussion of how his colleagues and others have dismissed it as a legend, and with whtever evidence exists on either side.--Pharos 01:42, 3 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Then be bold! Just ensure you change the language to make clear it is rumoured. You'll also have to include a mention of the scientists currently at the site who state it isn't true. --Oldak Quill 02:05, 3 January 2006 (UTC)


 * It apparently has not been published in credible sources and when it was published in relatively credible, it was simply a reprint from other newspapers. There is absolutely no evidence for this story, other than a publication in a UK tabloid. The denial was not detailed by any means and if denial is a reason for notability, then how about an article about your necrophilia? If you don't deny it, we can take it as evidence that it's true. If you do deny it, we can take it as a proof of the story's notability and publish it together with your denial. Your logic is flawed.


 * From Verifiability:
 * For an encyclopedia, sources should be unimpeachable... Sources should be appropriate to the claims made: outlandish claims beg strong sources.
 * Read also Reliable sources. No matter how you look at it, the claims are outlandish, there is no evidence and they are not verifiable. Therefore they must go. Paranoid 02:10, 3 January 2006 (UTC)


 * When suggesting its reinclusion I had thought the Pittsburgh Tribune and UPI to be credible sources. I had not realised they were reprints. --Oldak Quill 02:15, 3 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Maybe a couple of sentences saying something like "For a number of years there has been a story, recently revived in the Russian press and picked up by the UK newspaper The Scotsman, that Ivanov wanted to … … However, there are no credible sources for this story [because …]." --Cam 02:21, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

The story was published in a few articles in the main Russian news papers (as Trud and Komsomlskay Parvda), the authors of the articles acknowledge help from the archives and the Askania-Nova research center. I think it is reasonably verifiable story. I restored the info abakharev 02:37, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
 * We have an article on a supposed Nazi moon base, and we can have an article discussing this idea as well. We should certainly not say in the article that this is true, but we should discuss the documented coverage it has received.  It is not our place to just say "there is no evidence" and dismiss it– our job is as an encyclopedia is to discuss what is written in the primary sources.  It is quite easily verifiable that this idea has been published in The Scotsman, which may be a tabloid, but it is not the Weekly World News. We cannot just pretend that urban legends don't exist.  That dsaid, I don't think the section should be restored en toto as if it were a fact.  I support a position between that of Cam and abakharev– let's just say it's controversial and have an extended summary (and criticism where appropriate) of the claims.--Pharos 02:45, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, I prefaced the the info about the experiments with According to the publications by the Russian press and removed both English-speaking publications (as they indead are sensationalist and non-credible) abakharev 02:56, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Seemingly reliable paper on Ivanov's plans for human-ape hybridization
I found this paper on Ivanov and his human-ape hybridization experiments. It draws on Ivanov's diaries and other personal papers and on Soviet archives, and appears to bear out the bulk of the information now in the Wikipedia article, except for the pre-1910 stuff. Note that although it shows that Ivanov inseminated three chimpanzees with human sperm in French Guinea (none of which became pregnant), the journal article presents no evidence that he ever inseminated human females with ape sperm, either in Guinea or in the Soviet Union, although he attempted to organize such experiments in both places. The planned experiments in Sukhumi apparently did not actually occur. --Cam 05:41, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I fixed it up a bit based on the journal article, will clean up mpre tomorrow. --Cam 06:57, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Stalin
Some dates in this Wiki article don't seem to fit with this article from the Scotsman: http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=2434192005

That Stalin and the Politburo according to The Scotsman in 1926 asked Ilya to create a race of human/ape hybrids, but Wiki says Ilya only in 1929 managed to acquire some backing, and supposedly after some trouble, from officials. Rune X2 10:05, 20 August 2007 (UTC) That Stalin and the Politburo according to The Scotsman in 1926 asked Ilya to create a race of human/ape hybrids, but Wiki says Ilya only in 1929 managed to acquire some backing, and supposedly after some trouble, from officials. Rune X2 10:05, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * In 1925-26 he got official backing for experiments at Kindia and Conakry. --Cam 15:55, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Rat-mouse hybrid?
The article says that he had a rat/mouse hybrid. I'm pretty sure that no such thing is possible, especially considering technology available at the time. Many of the other hybrids may be suspect as well. Rats and mice are not as similar as one would imagine: http://www.ratbehavior.org/RatMouseHybrid.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.17.242.221 (talk) 19:24, 2 July 2009 (UTC)


 * It seems much more likely than hybridizing either with a guinea pig, let alone a guinea pig and a rabbit (!). Cow/antelope seems more than a bit fishy as well, particularly since it doesn't even say what species of antelope, a term that encompasses dozens of them (arguably including the cow itself, but that's neither here nor there).  One of the sources is offline, and for the other I'm getting a wall of mojibake.  I say we cut the whole claim, maybe looking into the zedonk and zubron, but his name's not mentioned in the article on either.  Twin Bird (talk) 13:03, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm ok with removing the claim. The original sources were on the order of popular-magazine articles.--Cam (talk) 14:38, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

The Hybrids
I found no evidence what so ever on mice/rats, mice/guinea pig or rabbit/guinea pig hybrid other than on creationist websites. Especially the latter bumps me, because guinea pigs are rhodents while rabbits are lagomorphs. Tiger and Lion happen to be the genus so they can be cross bread, but guinea pigs and rabbits are different "families". I think this is another sneaky attempt of the creation "scientists" to subtly change minute facts in actual scientist's paper to underline their "results" (believes). In conclusion the argument that apes and men could not be cross bread but even guinea pigs and rabbits could seemingly underlines how far we are from apes. Which to me is very funny again because if the lagomorph/rhodent cross breed was true, it would be further evidence for evolution because how do you explain that some species are more closely related to others without speciation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.75.38.2 (talk) 09:11, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I found many web sites mentioning hybrids. Only one of those was a creationist web site ( http://creation.com/ivanovs-ape-human-hybrid-project-why ). They don't claim that he crossed rabbits and guinea pigs, but that he experiment with variations of them. I think yours is another sneaky attempt to lash out on critiques of Evolution and reading doesn't seem to be your strong point. Also, even creation scientist proclaim that speciation does occur, usually within genus or taxon contexts and the suggested reason is loss of genetic information. That would mean they are related, but that doesn't mean that others are "less closely" related, since they may not be related at all. --41.151.77.35 (talk) 10:22, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Reputable source for the ape experiments
The section on the ape experiments has many notes saying dubious and citation needed, and there are comments here questioning that they ever happened. New Scientist ran a story on this a few years back, so there is at least one reliable source that I know of. However, some of the facts are different. I don't really have the time or inclination to rewrite the section with references, but here's a link to the article if anyone's interested in doing this:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19926701.000-blasts-from-the-past-the-soviet-apeman-scandal.html?full=true

I'm also going to post this to the talk page for the Humanzee article, which has more or less the same information with the same dubious/citation needed notes...

Reidlophile (talk) 22:02, 27 March 2013 (UTC)