Talk:Imam Rapito

Did the trial begin?
I see on these sites that the trial is scheduled to begin in June 2007. But that date has passed. I am interested to know, did it begin? Thank you. Sunbeam44 09:57, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * No, the trial si still waiting for the costitutional court. Teardrop.z 18:01, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Albania
Question: while this info: "(and alleged former Albanian national intelligence service asset)" is certainly important, do you folks really think it ought to belong to the intro? It is not prooved, and is quite peripherical to the Imam Rapito case, isn't it? Diplomatic incidents between US and Italy and internal relations between various bodies in Italy are here more critical, aren't they? Tazmaniacs 20:56, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

A "conjoint CIA-SISMI operation"
I'm concerned about the recently added info under this heading, primarily because I can't quite tell what it's about. It's saying the thing was a joint operation between Italy and the U.S.? Uh, yeah, the rest of the article (or at least the section for "Italian involvement" says that. What new information, exactly, does this add?

Also the cited article's in Italian, and the (I assume) Wiki-editor translations seem dubious at best and nonsensical at worst. What's a "conjoint operation"? Why is "mixed" in quotes? What can "the absence of Italy has alimentated much speculation" possibly mean?

I think the section is redundant and confusing and I'm kind of itching to remove it, or significant parts of it. But it's kinda big, so I wanted to vet what other editors thought of it first. Ford MF 18:43, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I disagree. We could work out together the formulation of it, and improve the translation. But it is very important, IMO, to cite the precise terms used by the Italian prosecutors, who speak of an "operazioni congiunte" ("concerted operation" might be better translation) between the SISMI and the CIA. The rest of the article alludes to this, but doesn't enter precisions, which is important. It's like: we can't just say the operation was carried out in concertation between the US and Italy, because that would be false. It was carried out in concertation between CIA and SISMI, which is different. The Italian government first claimed not to know anything about it, and that might possibly be correct because the SISMI carried it out and doesn't have to say all of what's it doing to the government. Beside, counter-terrorist expert Guido Olimpio refers to the CICT, citing Dana Priest, as a CEntri per operazioni congiunte (Wikipedia says: "a counterterrorist operations center run jointly by the CIA and foreign intelligence services..."). Not dealing with the possibility that although Polinari, head of SISMI, had to resign, he possibly had no knowledge of the operation, which was organized by Marco Mancini, whose folgorante carriera nel SIsmi ai 'rapporti privilegiati con la CIA'" ("dazzling carreer within the SISMI was due to a 'privileged relationship with the CIA'") according to other SISMI agents, cited by the Corriere della Sera'' article. All of this might not appear to you of much importance, but it is decisive for Italy and for complete understanding of the affair. I do agree agree with you, however, with any possible improvement in syntax and translation done to it. The fact that the cited article is Italian is only normal due to the subject itself. Tazmaniacs 20:30, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm okay with that...if I'm understanding you correctly. So the gist is that the ref is intended to explicitly state a collusion between the CIA and SISMI?  As differentiation between the CIA and Italy?  That makes sense to me.  It's a fairly simple concept, however, and I'm not sure that that needs to be more than a sentence or two with one single ref.  Is there something I'm missing?  Ford MF 20:36, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
 * No, it's a bit more complex than that. You might not be aware of the details of Italy's past history, which might explain why you don't understand the importance of such an affair. Let's say that international cooperation between intelligence agencies is not a simple matter. I would have thought that the fact that Marco Mancini proposed himself to the CIA as a "double agent", according to the Italian justice, would have been enough to indicate this. Again, head of Sismi has denied knowledge of the affair, as far as I know. This means that the operation was allegedly (according to current Italian investigations) carried out by SISMI agents, mainly under the direction of Marco Mancini, with cooperation of the CIA. If head of SISMI does not lie, what explains that he was not informed of this very important operation? How come Marco Mancini owes, according to the Corriere della Sera which quotes Italian investigations, his "dazzling carreer" (their words) to a letter from George Tenet? Does it seems to you something ordinary, for a foreign intelligence service to be able to influence to this point nominations in another foreign intelligence service? Clearly, this article is bound to include Italian news article, since it is a complex matter and the Italian press is the first source of information (what do you think the US media bases its article on, apart of investigations and news report from the Italian press? What should be done is to merge the two subsections, "Italian involvement and arrests of Italian intelligence officers" into "A 'conjoint CIA-SISMI operation'", which I will work on. Removal of information is not necessary. Tazmaniacs 21:25, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Wow Guyz;) great page! it's much larger then the italian one. good job. the page has lots of infos. a few lacks of precision. ie Guido Salvini is a judge, not a prosecutor while Antonio di Pietro was a prosecutor. ok, i'm picky and i study law. sorry;). ok, Pollari has been charged so the theory is he did know [ http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/Cronache/2007/02_Febbraio/16/pollari.shtml ]. concerted operation is a good translation of "operazioni congiunte" that is actualy plural, still the abu omar case is the only one linked we know about. i could give you an hand including italian press. by the way new facts:
 * http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/Cronache/2007/02_Febbraio/28/abuomar.shtml
 * http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/Politica/2007/03_Marzo/15/abu_omar_mastella.shtml
 * on your side departement of state said they are going to ignore any request of extradition for CIA agents while, on my side, mr Mastella italian justice minister said we are going to extraordinary re-taking them. I'M JOKING!!! no, he said there is a recourse to the italian constitutional court about secret of state that could makes some of the proofing material not usable so he is waiting [and hoping]. Teardrop.z 01:27, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the links & all. Please WP:Be bold and correct those important factual mistakes when you see them! Tazmaniacs 17:32, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, i'll be bold [isn't it enought to be bald?]. i'm making some minor change. it's my first wiki editing experience so i'm quite confused. i saw your post on my page, i don't even now if i should answare there or on your page... i see you don't have much time. the same for me. we don't need all that time since we don't have any deadline. i'm going to make a reserch of links and other information before changing anything about facts, while i'm going to change right now what seem to be just a misunderstanding because different leanguage, legal system or distance. i'm not that fluent in english so i don't know: if i have to add whole parts should i put them here or directly in the page? someone should check my grammar Teardrop.z 18:21, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Dramatics Personae
i took from the investigative staff cause she is not. she is not actually a "investigative magistrate". that point to inquisitory legal system wich is not the case. i keep a record here. i'll see how to complete this section and how to translate the italian magistrates "names" and functions.Teardrop.z 19:44, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Preliminary investigative magistrate Chiara Nobili of Milan.

Intro
i think we should put the "ongoing" alert into the article as it is in the italian page. i wrote an intro to the article. i think it's the most recent and complete summary about the Abu Omar Case. IT IS IN ITALIAN, because my enghish is not that good. it is in my userpage User:Teardrop.z/Abu_Omar there are a lot of link to italian press, something from the EU Parlamient [you can find that in english too] an more. i hope somebody can help me rendering it in good english, it could be used as an intro to this article. Teardrop.z 21:12, 19 March 2007 (UTC) i had problem with the link... grrr wiko code;) it is User:Teardrop.z/Abu_Omar Teardrop.z 21:47, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I changed the intro, please review english grammar and words i choose!!Teardrop.z 01:11, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Moved part
Ciao Teardrop! I moved this here:

One first liberation after approximately a year would had been interrupted because Nasr, Calling his family in Italy and telling the endured tortures, would had violated an accepted pact of confidentiality which was at the base of his release. Released a second time in February 2007 - but the Egyptians authorities would have prohibited expatriation - has denounced the endured violences and expressed the will to return in Italy, where however a decree of arrest waits him for terrorism activities which it was inquired for. Nasr has declared to trust Italian justice and wanting to pursue endured violence and his rights in Italian courts ; He refused, according his declarations, an agreement with the CIA for 2 million dollars and the citizenship for him and his family in exchange of hush concerning his vicissitude.

I'm not sure all this really belong to the lead. We should reintroduce it in the body of the article. Tazmaniacs 14:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * it's Ok. it will make the lead shorter. i'll see what other section could "host" it- Teardrop.z 16:56, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd advice moving another part. the Investigations about nasr should be moved and endeeped in his biografy, beeing quite incidental about the case itself. we will state he is thought to be linked to this or that organization, but i think we can save a section merging this info into the article. is it right?
 * Update: i merged the investigation and warrants sections and took the "dramatic personae" in this page since it seem to me it make the page too long, and it's a quite an uncomplete list. maybe we can make a sub page to discuss all the people involved, but it is secondary then set the article up to date. if we move the investigation on nasr section in his biografy [where i think it belong] and we keep in this page just the information relevant pointing them when it is needed, we'll eventually have a few sections. it will be easier for the reader to follow, and we'll have few points to edit to set them up to date. Teardrop.z 19:41, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Investigation staff

 * Prosecutor Armando Spataro.
 * Prosecutor Ferdinando Pomarici

Indicted persons
Indicted persons include the following:

Sismi
The following persons from Italian military intelligence agency Sismi, have been indicted:
 * General Nicolò Pollari, former director; resigned November 20, 2006.
 * Marco Mancini, director of operations. Mancini has been jailed.
 * General Gustavo Pignero, in charge of SISMI operations, Mancini's superior; placed under house arrest.
 * Renato Farina, vice-director of Libero, recruited by the SISMI in 2003. Reached a plea bargain with Italian justice.

Carabinieri

 * Giuliano Pironi, nicknamed "Ludwig", a junior ROS (Special Forces of the Carabinieri) officer recruited by Lady; participated in Omar's arrest. Reached a plea bargain with Italian justice.

USAF

 * Lieutenant Colonel Joseph L. Romano III, commander of 31st Security Forces Squadron at Aviano Air Base at the time of the abduction and former commander of 586th Expeditionary Security Forces Squadron at Camp Bucca, Iraq, now working at Section 31b the Pentagon.

CIA
The indictments referred to persons operating under the following names. At least eleven of these names appear to be aliases and are regarded by Italian authorities as being "untraceable": some have received Social Security Numbers only in the last ten years, and some have addresses that are post office boxes in Virginia believed to be used by the C.I.A. The rest appear to be legitimate identities.
 * Monica Courtney Adler
 * Gregory Asherleigh
 * Lorenzo Gabriel Carrera, b. 1/29/1971, TX.
 * Eliana Castaldo, b. 11/14/1969.
 * Victor Castellano
 * Jeffrey W. Castelli, Rome station chief, responsible of the CIA in Italy until 2003, and Lady's superior; now believed to be at Langley.
 * Drew Carlyle Channing
 * Sabrina De Sousa
 * John Kevin Duffin
 * Vincent Faldo, b. 1950
 * John Thomas Gurley
 * Raymond Michael Harbaugh
 * James Thomas Harbison, b. 1948
 * Ben Amar Harty, b. 1944; of Arabic origin.
 * Brenda Liliana Ibanez
 * Anne Linda Jenkins, b. Sept 24, 1946 in Florida
 * James Robert Kirkland
 * Robert Seldon Lady, Milan station chief, reputed leader of the rendition.
 * Cynthia Dame Logan
 * Betnie Medero-Navedo, b. 1967; Second secretary at the U.S. embassy in Italy at the time of the kindapping; now First Secretary at the U.S. embassy in Mexico.
 * L. George Purvis
 * Pilar Rueda
 * Ralph Henry Russomando
 * Joseph Sofin
 * Michalis Vasiliou, b. 1962, in Greece.

Counsel

 * Nasr's counsel is Egyptian lawyer Montasser el-Zayat.


 * Who is missing? Such lists are not that bad, IMO (in my opinion)... as long as they are kept at the end. They allow for various levels of reading (one may read only the list to see who is involved). What do you think? Tazmaniacs 19:11, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Bob Lady Pic
Is it Indymadia a good source? my intuition never trusted it a lot.

the abduction part point to the right ordinance number! but i don't realize the torture part, addressing "US code". i'll check it later. Teardrop.z 13:30, 31 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia sometimes use Indymedia as a source, depends on the matters. In any cases, the statement "photos have appeared on the Web" is neutral and allows the reader to judge for himself. Personally, I think you should read Indymedia as Wikipedia, and, to some extent, as any news report: on a case by case basis, with caution. The Indymedia article (I've read only the first half) is quite detailed, and provides links to news source (just as Wikipedia) . The Spiegel article is interessant, and points towards a direct responsibility of Condoleeza Rice, citing an article by Matthew Cole in GS in March. Tazmaniacs 19:11, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
 * when i write wikipedia you can read it as the Gospel;) ok, maybe not the gospel;). i'll chet it out better. i collected so many source;( i have hundreds of page to read, a book to find, and some people to ask about. i think we have now enought material to make a great enciclopedic article. so i'd just concentrate on putting all sections up to date and at the best prose we can. does anybody have anything to argue if i eventually move the "investiation on nasr" on his very page? Teardrop.z 00:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
 * No problem for moving part to Nasr's page, just maybe keep a short sentence here (articles are supposed to be autonomous on Wikipedia). Tazmaniacs 22:08, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It's worth pointing out that Lady is not actually wanted in the United States. The photo is a graphic used by Indymedia to illustrate their story, nothing more.  Ford MF 05:49, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, it boggles my mind that Wikipedia would ever use Indymedia as a source, since it's basically a journalism Wiki, being completely open source (and often not even requiring registration), and Wikipedia has explicit rules about not using other Wikis as references for information. Yet somehow Indymedia is okay?  Weird.  Ford MF 06:01, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not "Indymedia", it's on a case-by-case basis. This particular article is quite researched and has links to Der Spiegel & others articles. Furthermore, I'll point out that in anti-globalization events, journalists from important media sometimes get their information at... Indymedia centers! As I say, it's on a case-by-case basis. Tazmaniacs 16:33, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Journalists sometimes get their information from Wikipedia too. That doesn't mean Wikipedia is an acceptable source for a newspaper article, just that some journalists are really bad at their jobs.  Ford MF 04:31, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Missing Information
There seems to be information missing in this article that appears in this documentary: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6760815318188491280

Notably, the suicide of Adamo Bove in 2006 who is in this documentary brought in connection with the Imam Rapito inquiry.