Talk:Immortal Technique/Archive 1

Bin Laden track
saying the track bin laden features jadakiss and eminem is a bit of a stretch; their vocals were sampled and they didnt actually pen lyrics for the track. mos def did, but they did not.


 * There is a remix of this song that features DJ Green Lantern, KRS-One, and Chuck D. They aren't sampled either, from what I can tell. That might be worthy of mention if Mos Def, Jadakiss, and Em are... Joe 07:15, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Civil War??
I read something about Civil War in Peru in his biography but it's not exactly. There was a conflict with subversive groups, and I know because I'm Peruvian. That must be changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.230.53.83 (talk • contribs)
 * This is probably referring to the guerilla campaigns by Shining Path and Túpac Amaru Revolutionary Movement during the early 1980s when they took over lots of rural Peru. I agree its not a civil war and should be changed to more appropriate wording but I'm not sure what npov word can describe the actions of those two groups against Peru's government. Gdo01 22:31, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * "Regional conflict" perhaps? "Conflict between two anti-government organizations" (with redirects to the conflict)? Discuss...Lincoln187 07:59, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

i run across his "point of no return" by mistake; since then neighbours are asking me for his songs; he is very revolutionarry; i would add TRULLY revolutionarry at least compared with anything one has heard in te past year; he atacks are sometimes ferocious and he excedes i NOT beeing politically correct; by lyrics and voice alone he surpases even "jedi mind tricks" wich have the most awsome produsctions in this musical genere

in this times and days he sounds as the TRUE voice of reason; the reason that evolves( he makes apoint bybeeing both sensible and agressive at the SAME  time sometimes, within same song). he inspires strenght with conviction.he sounds UNIQUE even if his productions are not of high quality generally; i have yet to see someone that hearing him does not stop and listenat least for a while; once heard; one could easilly see that hip hop it is a music that could trully represent activism in general

okay, what's up here
Someone keeps deleting my addition of him beleiving in a blood line of jesus. The Point of No Return specifically states his beleifs, about Mary Magdalene giving birth to the children of Jesus (TAKEN DIRECTLY FROM THE SONG), and what the Knights Templar found under Solomon's temple (AGAIN, TAKEN DIRECTLY FROM THE SONG). Delete stuff like that just proves what he's trying to say, you'll put what you like, but you'll take away the stuff that goes against your religion. It's effing rediculious. Anyone who deletes that shouldn't be listening to Immortal Technique. I will mercilessly edit that part in constantly, because it is the truth, cited directly from his song. There is no justification for taking that part out.

that is all.


 * If its me to who you're reffering, the reason you keep having your lines edited out is bc you write like a lunatic. If you can properly express a legitimate point related to tech, then please do so. Planting a line or too in the middle of an unrelated topic will be regarded as vandalism. If you have so much to say, why don't you sign-in as a user and everyone can see exactly what you're talking about?Cavell 21:40, 23 April 2006 (UTC)Cavell

Lol, it's under the paragraph about conspiracies/other questionable events tech refers to, that is the PERFECT place to put it.

biography sucks
this biography looks like it was cut and pasted from the Viper records web site. Furthermore, a military hospital somewhere in South America - that's too vague for an article. Same with the part about him coming from native Peru. Peru is one hell of a big place and it's as general as saying someone came from the United States. If we just cut and paste articles from promo sites it makes wikipedia look worthless.


 * Vague is better than nothing (and some details are so specific they aren't notable). Learn to live with vagueness unless you have more specific, and sourced, information. If you have, then why not add it? On the other hand, if the wording here is copied from elsewhere, then it may have to be removed for copyright violation. Tim Ivorson 10:43, 28 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Check it out . The bio here on Wiki is a slimmer version but uses a lot of the same phrases and language. Looks like copy vio but I'm not going to add the copy vio tag until someone else verifies. -->Chemical Halo 18:16, July 28, 2005 (UTC)


 * Some of these phrases are the same, but it looks like it was put through a POV filter. I wanted to get as many facts as possible and the Viper records site is really the only source on the web.  If you are talking about sentence structure, please, change away.

"LOOK" I don’t know who wrote this, but you dumbass what better place to get Immortal Techniques biography than one of his own sites. You stupid Bitch stop hating. "HOE"


 * Still may be a copyvio. User:ShadowyCaballero above claims to have permission, however.  --Hansnesse 01:07, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't have permission. The contents are facts.  If when you talk about copyvio you are talking about something creative, like sentence structure, maybe you're right.  I took the Viper records article and tried to screen out the POV.  If it's just facts like, "Immortal technique was born in a military hospital" how else can it be written?  You can't copywrite the truth. - ShadowyCabal
 * Correct, facts are not generally copyright protected, but specific wording is. This section has to go.  --Hansnesse 21:47, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

love letter
This article basically reads like a love letter. Not sure if it was written by a promoter or what, but anyway, it puts him in a remarkably positive light. This guy was the main bully in my high school, that is, he was a huge asshole. So it's weird for me to read this article about how great he is in a supposed encyclopedia. --169.231.18.188 02:01, 20 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Maybe being a bully is what drove him to become the best rapper in the world. Every time he was pounding some person's face in, the torment of their screams drove him mad until the only way he could prevent himself from snapping his mental conflicts onto the world was by thinking of lyrics every time he had to beat someone up and then writing those lyrics down as soon as he stole some chick's virginity. Since you claim to be such a hardcore Christian, I'm sure you'd understand that God creates everyone with their own unique personality. Society frowns upon people with an aggressive personality, but really God meant for those people to beat the crud out of other people. Jamesters 09:26, 26 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not gonna tell you to forget that you were bullied in school. I was made fun of and kicked around ever since I was 7 until I stopped putting up with it. As another person writes, you should really read his lyrics. He even confesses having been a bully in one of his songs. People can change. Doc Daneeka 04:35, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Have you even heard any of his songs?--Kennyisinvisible 03:29, 28 September 2005 (UTC)


 * It's been a long time since high school dude... let it go... he went to college, he went to prison, he worked as a social worker, he became famous... he might have changed, dontchya think? Besides, public and private life is different... not everyone has your unique access to his private life...
 * I like Technique, but I think its lacking in NPOV. Perhaps some mention of controversies with his comments would be worthy. And I don't know about the above user's allegations. Granted, it would be hard to prove your beef with him, but wild allegations are counter-productive. Lincoln187 08:04, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

fan website
can some admin please block user Cavell from changing the words of the artist's fan website to official website; he (or she) is obviously mixing up immortaltechnique.com (no dash! official site which right now redirects to viper records website) with immortal-technique.com (fan website, WITH dash) i think it is important that it is displayed as what it is and that, unlike viper records website, it doesnt represent Immortal Technique officially.

who-am-i 22:48, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

As a response to the user Who-Am-I, I would like to state that Immortal Technique himself posts commentary on that website. So, in the interest of resolving the issue, the article has been changed to say "on the website Immortal-Technique.com", removing any reference of who owns the website. Cavell 01:12, 24 December 2005 (UTC)Cavell

artists sometimes post on fan message boards, it doesnt make them official. but since you are demanding sources, please look up both domain names on any whois site, e.g. on http://www.networksolutions.com/whois/index.jhtml there you will see the owners of both domains. dash: some fan. no dash: Felipe Coronel, which is IT's real name. also, you removed the note that the message board in question is currently down (since almost 2 months by the way) and you added the wrong url. http://www.immortal-technique.com/home.html is obviously neither the message board url, nor the home page, but the internal (usually framed) news page. the message board url is http://www.immortal-technique.com/forums/ both changes are rather not helpful to first time readers, therefor they should be reverted once again. if you still disagree, please post here. who-am-i 01:44, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

I know the message board link, however, like you said, it is down. The link I provided will direct you to the same place (although not accesable from the main page). This seems to be the disagreement we are having. The message board has not been constanly down for 2 months, as it is where I wrote about his diatribe in the first place. The site seems to be having problems, so I posted a link that directs people directly to the atricle which I spoke about. So, please leave the link as it is, then people can click it and read what I am talking about. Thank YouCavell 02:56, 24 December 2005 (UTC)Cavell
 * after weeks of research, i have just addeed to "also see" section new artists of wich some were really hard to discover due to their trully underground "passage"; check them out; "jedi mind tricks" should been higher do

year (date) date of birth
to get a few more facts, does anyone know when IT was born? i remember reading something about 77 or 78 in some online magazine interview. however, i cannot find it in my bookmarks anymore. who-am-i 01:52, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

NPOV tag
I added the tag after reading the article, and may well end up cleaning the thing up myself. It reads far too much like material copied from somewhere, and it's grotesquely clingy; in short, it sounds like it was written by a groupie.

If it is material copied from elsewhere, then the offending revisions need to be erased for reasons of copyright. 86.133.53.111 04:33, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

If you are reffering to the paragraph about "The Intellectual", I wrote that. If you have any disputes about it, please contact me before changing anything, Cavell 04:37, 25 December 2005 (UTC)Cavell

I have removed the NPOV tag and rewritten the article to clean up any references I could find that would violate the NPOV. As such, I would welcome anyone who has any concerns about this to post and discuss further.Cavell 22:48, 31 December 2005 (UTC)Cavell


 * Well done! Much more NPOV.  I would propose the following changes, however:
 * (i) change "rhymes deal with the wrongdoings of the government" to "rhymes deal with alledged wrongdoings of the government", since (although I think there are wrongdoings as well), this reads as an endorsement of his politics.
 * (ii) Remove the "Immortal Technique brings realism and consciousness back to rap music" since it is an opinion.
 * (iii) Replace "Despite his humble beginnings as an immigrant from Peru, to living in Harlem, New York, Immortal Technique displays amazing intellectual and political insight into sociology, world politics, and American Foreign Policy." with something more neutral or remove it entirely.
 * (iv) Remove "On the message board of Immortal-Technique.com [1], an excellent commentary on current political events, including Hurricane Katrina, the War in Iraq, and American Foreign Policy, may be read." Already in External links, no need to put it in twice.
 * I would have made the edits WP:BOLD, but since the material seems to have already be the subject of a few reverts, I thought we might try concensus here. Thoughts? --Hansnesse 01:07, 1 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi, Thank you for your comments regarding my rewite. I have gone through the article once more to correct the issues you have mentioned. I take your points into great consideration and have dealt (I believe) with all of them, with just one exception, which is most likely due to a misunderstanding. In referance to your last point, technically the link is at the bottom, however, the message board link inside that link is - for some reason - down. So readers will not be able to access his diatribe via the link at the bottom, but they can access it through this link. I therefore propose to leave the link there, to further assist readers of his article. Your thoughs (or anyones else's) are welcomed. Thank you Cavell 02:24, 4 January 2006 (UTC)Cavell
 * Fantastic, looks great. Thanks. --Hansnesse 20:46, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I have both links (in text and at the bottom) as working and going to the same page. Is it time to remove one (whoever removed it earlier today may have been thinking the same thing)?  Maybe I am not seeing what material can not be acessed via both links. --Hansnesse 05:22, 23 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The links appear to go to the same page, but the message forum of his fan site cannot be accesed through the link at the bottom. It is therefore added in the article's body above, where mentioned.Cavell 21:50, 24 January 2006 (UTC)Cavell
 * Hmm... I have the link at the bottom of the article going to a framed version of the link in the article. The section in the center of the page from the link at the bottom is the same as the link in the page.  Try scrolling down the center section (how to do this is specific to your browser/platform, on most PCs, hold the mouse over the section and roll down the roller on your mouse). I don't see what is different between the pages.  Thanks, --Hansnesse 21:58, 24 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know if we're talking about the same link. The link I am talking about is at the end of the article, talking about his commentary on the war in Iraq, Hurricane Katrina, etc. This page cannot be accessede from the link at the bottom of the page, even though they go to the same main site, so I left the link where people can use it. I think it help add a lot of depth to the article and request that it be left in for the benifit of many people.
 * I have that is the middle of a frame page of ; sorry for the confusion.  Thus any material which is in the first is also displayed in the second.  Is this what you are refering to? --Hansnesse 00:59, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I just reverted a removal of the first link. I think that removal is appropriate, but since this discussion is here, I thought I would request comments before going ahead and removing it myself, since it seems to be a contentious issue. --Hansnesse 23:33, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Hey Hansnesse, thanks for the support. I feel that the link should be left in because it contains a fantastic commentary on some current (well, july 05) events taking place with american politics. The link as it is presented here cannot be accessed through the main menu of the site, so it has been placed in - where I thought - the most appropriate place. I feel the link should be left in and - frankly - can't understand why someone would want to remove this pertainant information. Since transferring the entrie text to the article is not feasible, why not leave it here? Thoughts anyone? Cavell 00:06, 4 February 2006 (UTC)


 * i dont know which browser user Cavell is using (maybe lynx?) but as far as i know, all current browsers (Opera, Mozilla derivates and even IE) support iframes, so the home page (/) on immortal-technique.com should work for anyone. who-am-i 01:50, 4 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I too was thinking it was a technical issue (although I had not gotten around to checking it on other browsers, etc.). If this is the case, the solution seems obvious: put both links together, Like one of the following
 * Fan Site and Forumswithout frames
 * Fan Site and Forums (without frames)
 * What do ya'll think? --Hansnesse 02:19, 4 February 2006 (UTC)


 * http://www.immortal-technique.com/forums/ now points to a whole different forum and it doesnt look like the original one will come back. that is why i removed the url once again who-am-i 22:52, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Homophobia/Misogyny
I posted an update adding information on the homophobic and misogynist messages included in several Immortal Technique songs, which I cited specifically. Soon after they were removed by one "80.134," who stated "bullshit." I'm not sure that qualifies as a reason. The lyrics are clear and available to anyone to reference.

Obviously, that is not a removal I agree with. Is there anyone else who, though they may be overall favorably impressed with IT's progressive messages and amazing verbal skill, is incredibly disappointed in his sadly ordinary, reactionary views on gender and sexuality?

What do other people think?


 * It could be added as criticism but it will undoubtedly be deleted again unless you can provide a source saying the same thing. If you can't provide a source other than your own analysis, the section will be deleted due to original research. Gdo01 21:06, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I would like to register my objection to this airbrushing of Coronel's homophobia and sexism out of this entry. Analysis is explaining why things are what they are. Description, in contrast, is simply providing a factual narration of what is. I think providing a factual account of Coronel's openly expressed and affirmed social and political views is appropriate in a section on a figure's "social and political views" in an encyclopedia. In fact, I would consider it essential. Gagging the dissemination of information about a famous figure's openly affirmed social views should, I think, be a relic from another era - not a policy maintained in 2006. Now, if I were to try to move from the realm of description into the realm of analysis, I could speculate as to why Coronel expresses such violent misogynist and homophobic views, but I agree, that would be outside the scope of an encyclopedia. Ghostfacearchivist 20:33, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * i know pretty much all songs he has recorded, and not in one of them i hear him saying anything against women or homosexuals. do you? no? as long as you cant prove it, your edit was bullshit. --80.134 16:27, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

If you take a listen to "Crossing the Border," "Crossing the Boundary," and "Industrial Revolution," you can hear him use phrases like "degenerate fags" "bitches," and "fags." That's what I'm talking about. Rapping about people being "degenerate fags," is clearly degrading to gay people.


 * congratulations, you just found something that is going on in hiphop since almost 20 years. fags? bitches? oh come on. the point is, if you use that vocabulary mentioned you dont necessarily state your view on homosexuals or women; its common used cussing, whether you like it or not. saying he is homophobic or sexist is pov and factually wrong unless you provide any interview saying him anything negative about gays, lesbians or women. in 1993, on the Home Invasion album, in the song "99 Problems" (the track Jay Z bited), Ice T rapped "(i got) a bitch who's a man because theyre bitches too". got it? --80.134 01:21, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, you do have a point about the lengthy heritage of language that degrades women and homosexuals in rap music. On a personal level, it is possible that I am biased by the fact that I simply have higher expectations for Coronel than I do for less socially-conscious rappers. Nonetheless, I think it's important to think about why we should consider it POV to say that using language like "bitch/faggot" is "misogynist/homophobic."

To my mind, it seems like it is just as much POV to say that it is acceptable to use these hateful terms, and that they should not be commented on. Just because this is the POV of mainstream establishment society, doesn't mean us Wikipedians need to accept the myth that this objective. We don't need to accept the normalization of hate speech - we have legitimate grounds to challenge it, and indeed, we should challenge it. Coronel does not deserve a free pass to use hate speech any more than anyone else, or because other rappers have used hate speech in the past. That's all I'm trying to say. --ghostfacearchivist 21:03, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

A fag is a cigarette and a bitch is a female dog with pups, how is this mysogynistic and/or sexist 24.186.192.247 17:44, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Hello, anonymous editor. If you're going to participate, please do so sincerely. Comments like that won't advance the discussion. William Pietri 00:12, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

"I don't make songs that disrespect women/or judge people about the lifestyle that they livin"

"if you can take a dick you can take a joke " rev vol 2 you see, its not quite as simple as all this. my question is, if immortal technique is homophobic/mysoganistic so what? i personally am not either of these things but i think its anyones right to be what they want. you aare listening to radical underground dark hip-hop here guys. this is not top of the pops radio friendly stuff- the maan can say what he wants and thank god for him. peace.....


 * I believe that the bulk of Tech's message is exceedingly positive but when I play his music for friends who are active in the struggle for Women's Rights or Gay Rights I get the same response, "Why does he undermine his positive message with all this 'bitch/fag' bullshit?" Some of Tech's fans expect more from him based on the strength of his convictions in the fight for social justice.  On the other hand, Tech makes a point at his shows to dispel any inclinations for listeners to dismiss him as misogynistic. He advocates for abortion rights and recognizing the strength of women in general. It's a shame that he doesn't do the same about the criticisms of the seemingly homophobic sentiments in his songs.  He is 'just a man', as he says, and I will continue to be a supporter as he grows and evolves as an artist and a man.

his music in dedicated to open minded people; many of his fags and B..h refferences and thrown in as PUNCH LINES and they are NOT derogatory to gays or women as a "class"; i am a 30years old white man; i have no relations to black/latin people. but i feel much more closer to his sentiments then i felt towards any white singer in a LONG time; one has to listen to "the poverty of philosophy" to see a general definitian of what IM represents


 * Fuck his sexist remarks. Not all women are to be respected. Some are bitches. Not all men are to be respected. Some are dogs. Fuck your political correctness. This defines your apathy against an oppressive government anyway. This is why he will always be respected more than you. Putting his reputation on the line to speak the truth, while your political correctness keeps you muzzled from speaking your mind. --- 18:33, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Copyright Issues
It appears the basis for this article was plagiarized from The Viper Records Biography of Immortal Technique. Was permission given? This doesn't look like public domain material. Tjdw 02:54, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I got permission - ShadowyCaballero


 * Did you forward the email/send the letter per Confirmation of permission? --Hansnesse 01:07, 1 January 2006 (UTC) (Edited to add: Shouldn't there be a note of attribution as well?)--Hansnesse 01:19, 1 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I have replaced the biography with one I wrote myself (save for the last paragraph which appears to have been subsequently added). It is probably not great, since I wrote it in a few minutes, but I think it is better than the alternative of reverting to the state before the material was added.   Thanks, --Hansnesse 22:16, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

9/11
In the song "cause of death", Tech does not directly say the CIA trained the 9/11 terrorists. He says "..the CIA trained terrorists how to fight, build bombs and sneak box cutters on to a flight..." This blurb has therefore been removed as it is not entirely correct. To make mention of every single event to which he reffers would be redundant. It has already been established that he has disdain for the neo-con American gov. Cavell 13:45, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Cavell:


 * The blurb was entirely correct. The song makes it explicitly clear that this guy thinks the U.S. federal government conspired with terrrorist who used box cutters to hijack a plane. Interestingly, Immortal Technique also believes that the United States sponsored Hitler's government. There is absolutely no other possible interpretation to these lyrics. Instead of the vague generalizations already posted, it's important to let people know exactly what Immortal Technique says. It's important that people get to see the facts and make their own judgments.


 * It can be difficult to use lyrics to identify peoples ideals and beliefs, perhaps we should look for direct statements/press releases?Rubbergovernment 02:54, 13 November 2006 (UTC)


 * lyrics are not necessarily accurate portrayals of an individual philosophy or belief. they are metaphor -- representations of ideas. it seems like IT is suggesting the culpability on the part of the US for tragedies the US tends to place outside its scope of influence. in short, that the US does not always come down on the pure side of the fence. it is a known fact that bin Laden was on the payroll of the CIA and that American companies run by Prescot Bush (grandfather) profited from the Nazi party. The assets of Prescot's company were seized in 1942 under a law against trading with enemies of the state.

High School
There seems to be changes back and forth between saying he went to Hunter College High School and Regis High School. I have found sources online which indicate the former, and have not been able to locate sources which indicate the latter. Perhaps someone can clarify where this is coming from. Thanks, --TeaDrinker 16:20, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

He went to Hunter - I was there when he was. I don't know about Regis. -Hunter kid

What sources, TeaDrinker? I am a Hunter student - I checked my school records and I can't find any Felipe Coronel in the given year. "Hunter kid" - any specifics?


 * Howdy, an article about him here from the New York Daily news indicates that he went to Hunter. --TeaDrinker 22:37, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks - that settles it. Nice find.

Bully.
I noticed the few sentences about his high school time seem contradictory. On one hand, it states he helped clean up graffti, on the other it says he was almost expelled. And I think in one of his songs he mentions that he was a bully.

Hahahaha. Clean up graffiti, that's hysterical. He used to write RESK and still has a couple of tags/fillins living in Harlem.

Why do they keep removing the part where it says he went to Hunter College Elementary School? This is a fact, albeit inconvinent to the whole "came to america as confused teenager" vibe this tries to put off.

5 Percenter?
Does anyone have any sources pointing to Immortal Technique being a Five Percenter? If not then i suggest you take him of the category.

poor quality/editing
A few issues: (1) 2nd paragraph says "After some more run ins with the law" even though there is no antecedent "run ins with the law." Also "run ins" is probably supposed to be "run-ins." (2) The first paragraps says he is Executive VP at Viper while third paragraph says he is now "President of Operations." http://www.viperrecords.com/imtech/about.shtml <--that page which appears to be from early 2006 lists him as "President of Viper Records" (3) "politics," "world politics" and "American foreign policy" in paragraph 6 seem redundant.. there should be a way to reduce those to just two or maybe even one item.


 * I've attempted to fix the first problem. Feel free to edit the article yourself. Tim Ivorson 2006-06-13


 * I read through the beginning part of the article and did my best to try to edit it to a more formal standard. I didn't get to the last section.  --Gar2chan 11:44, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 20:32, 3 May 2016 (UTC)