Talk:Imperial Rule Assistance Association

Not to be confused with
I have added a 'not to be confused with' to Distinguish it from the IRA (Irish Republican Army), as when you type in IRAA it redirects here. 84.64.14.35 (talk) 16:49, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Article move
I believe the current title is in violation of WP:COMMONNAME - I have never seen it referred to as anything other than the Imperial Rule Assistance Association in English. Slac speak up! 01:51, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm inclined to agree. I'm not familiar with any important English-language source that uses the Japanese name. --Yaush (talk) 02:27, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm confused.

Under "Ideals" it says: Prior to creation of the Imperial Rule Assistance Association, Konoe had already passed the National Mobilization Law, which effectively nationalized strategic industries, the news media, and labor unions, in preparation for total war with China.

But under "Political position" it lists "Far-right".

I know of no laissez–faire capitalist government that "nationalizes strategic industries" or the other institutions. These are the actions of socialist, totalitarian regimes, such as the National Socialist German Workers Party that nationalizes private industries.

I suggest that "far-right" is erroneous in the extreme. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:6A96:5A00:3DBF:DB24:16A6:9B4B (talk) 00:44, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

Fascism?
Recent edits (e.g. ) have added the following: 1) Fascism to the Ideology list in the Infobox, 2) the Fascism Navbox, 3) Categories for Fascist parties & Fascism in Japan. However, "Fascism" is not mentioned in the article text, and I have, therefore, removed these additions. Do we have reliable sources which directly support article text which would, in turn, support the additions? - Ryk72 talk 06:03, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Source number 1 mentions how the party evolved into a "statist ruling political party", Shöwa statism was Fascist, and the party supported it. -- Pedro8790 (talk) 06:10, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
 * But, unless that source (Wolferen, The Enigma of Japanese Power: People and Politics in a Stateless Nation), and other reliable sources, directly describe the IRAA as "fascist" (and I cannot see that it does), we cannot do so. Per policy (WP:V), article text must be directly supported by reliable sources, not indirectly so. In this case, to take a description of "statism" and combine it with an unsourced or elsewise sourced "statism is fascism" would be WP:SYNTHesis, which is explicitly prohibited. - Ryk72 talk 06:24, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't get it, how is a party that supported a Fascist ideology not Fascist? No offense, but the logic you and Havsjö are using to justify removing those categories is extremely weird and I never saw anything like this on Wikipedia before. -- Pedro8790 (talk) 06:38, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Addition of fascism as a separate ideology is acctually unnecessary since Shōwa Statism is often referred to as "Japanese Fascism", thus adding a separate fascism would be like stating the same thing twice! Vif12vf/Tiberius (talk) 11:29, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Well in that case it would be more appropriate to remove "Fascism" from the ideology part in the infobox, rather than removing everything. -- Pedro8790 (talk) 15:15, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
 * It wouldn't because Shōwa Statism does not equate to Fascism (you wouldn't call Fascist Italy a Shōwa Statist nation). Yes there can be overlaps, but other ideologies in the inbox share overlaps too.

Far-right?
Ongoing tug of war in this page's edit history. While the "party" did include some socialists, I would argue that given its leadership and overall ideological orientation, the IRAA should be regarded as far-right in practice (in the same way that Italian Fascism is regarded as such despite its roots in socialism). 73.175.36.237 (talk) 06:07, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Sources? - Ryk72 talk 06:09, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Pretty obvious it was Far-right based on the ideologies of the party, it was also Anti-communist of course, reason already explained, no offense but you seem to be more interested in being disruptive than anything. -- 177.206.210.85 (talk) 15:23, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

So, we finally have some ostensible sources; listed in this edit summary. Sources should be referenced in the article itself, not just in an edit summary. But, putting that aside for the moment, now that we have them, lets look at them. First, Fukuzawa Yukichi’s Bourgeois Liberalism: The Betrayal of the East Asian Enlightenment has a passing mention of the IRAA in a footnote: This <"Expel the Barbarians"> was one of the most famous propaganda slogans used by the government and the military of the Empire of Japan during the Pacific War. It was mainly promoted by far-right organisations such as the Imperial Rule Assistance Association (Taisei yokusan kai). For more about the Imperial Rule Assistance Association, see Jansen 631. There is no discussion of the IRAA itself; per WP:RSCONTEXT, a passing mention is not necessarily a reliable source. Second, Postwar Emigration to South America from Japan and the Ryukyu Islands is again a passing mention: Some of the main critics of the prewar migrants were also high-level statesmen during the war. Some of them, like Murata Shozo, Aoki Kazuo, and Shigemitsu Mamoru, were detained by U.S. forces after the war. Murata was a minister in Konoe Fumimaro's cabinet and member of the far right-wing association Taisei Yokusankai while Aoki headed various ministries between 1931 and 1944. Again, there is no discussion of the IRAA itself; per WP:RSCONTEXT, a passing mention is not necessarily a reliable source. Articles should be based on sources which primarily deal with the article subject, not on sources which make only passing mentions. Sources that do mention either the IRAA or Taisei Yokusankai, and which do not describe it as far-right or Fascist are by far more numerous, and more likely to engage in a discussion of the IRAA with some depth. Examples include: Given the predominance of sources which do not describe the IRAA as either "far-right" or "Fascist", it seems that for our article to categorise it as such, based on two passing mentions (one in a footnote) falls firmly foul of WP:NPOV@WP:UNDUE. - Ryk72 talk 05:47, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Marius B Jansen; The Making of Modern Japan Konoe seems to have judged that the time was right for a new political order, and during the summer of 1940 he had representative of all major interest groups meet to work out proposals for such a structure. The result of this was the Imperial Rule Assistance Association (Taisei Yokusan Kai, hereafter IRAA) that was launched in October 1940. Designed to penetrate and coordinate Japanese society by organising from village hamlet to metropolis, this was Japan's answer to the mass political parties of the fascist states. A preparatory commission of thirty-seven members represented all important interest groups. Konoe's intent was a structure that would replace the existing political parties, have repesentative organisations on both regional and national levels, and thereby dominate the administrative and legislative organs of the state. Institutionally the chief gainer of this institutional change would be the office of the prime minister; long ineffective and unable to coerce or to coordinate, it would now be at the centre of the new structure, able to represent Japanese from city to hamlet and draw on every constituent body and interest group. ... NOTE: This is the same Jansen referenced by Fukuzawa Yukichi, above.
 * The Cambridge History of Japan Extensive material on the IRAA; does not describe it as either far-right or Fascist. Does include material on right-wing criticisms of the IRAA, and material on socialist members of the IRAA.
 * The Japanese Today: Change and Continuity Describes the IRAA as a large amorphous organization that was meant to be a nationwide popular movement, like the Nazi or Fascist parties; so, intriguingly similar to National Socialism or Fascism - but only insofar as being a "nationwide popular movement". The next paragraph has The Japanese experience is often compared to the fascism of interwar Europe, and certainly the resemblances are in some ways striking. But, unlike the Italian and German cases, there was no dictator and the system was not the product of a well-defined, popular movement, but more a vague change of mood, a shift in the balance of power between the elite groups in Japanese society, and a consequent major shift in national policies.... Does not describe the IRAA as either "right-wing" or "Fascist".
 * Origins of the Pacific War and the Importance of "Magic" The Imperial Rule Assistance Association (IRAA) is the English translation of Taisei Yokusan Kai (established 12 October 1940). This association was formed as an attempt to establish a unified leadership in view of the problems described above . In the early stages, many idealists such as socialists, communists and liberals, in addition to right-wing groups joined its membership, although they later withdrew in disappointment with the government's ban on the IRAA's political activities. Additionally, a footnote lists notable communists & socialists who were involved in the movement to create the IRAA.
 * The A to Z of World War II: The War Against Japan Extended description - no "far-right", no "Fascism". Through its extensive organization, the IRAA concentrated on building and maintaining popular morale and support for the war. It promoted conservation, increased production, and civil defence among citizens.
 * Dictionnaire Historique du Japon (in French) - Rien.
 * Organized Workers and Socialist Politics in Interwar Japan Very interesting content on socialists & labour movements in pre-WW2 Japan. Emphasises the apolitical nature of the "New Order", including the IRAA. Many men who had been prominent in the labor and socialist party movement during the interwar period served in the New Order in the years that followed. Members of the Nichirokei  ... were particularly active in the Imperial Rule Assistance Association or in Sampo . ... In sum, other than the New Order's profession of 'assistance to Imperial Rule' and the 'fulfillment of our duties as loyal subjects', the New Order was devoid of political content.
 * National Diet Library - No "far-right", no "Fascism".
 * It's not necessary for the party to be repeatedly called Far-Right, just like is it not necessary for the NSDAP to be called Far-Right every time, also it was not apolitical, if it was actually apolitical, then why were Communists and others persecuted by the regime? The Japanese regime might have said that, but them saying this doesn't mean it actually was. Speaking of this, some of your sources actually mention the persecution of Communists, for example, in The Japanese Today: Change and Continuity, page 267 (one of the pages which appeared on your link) mentions how the Communist Party was banned just a few years after being founded, and that it was revived only after the War ended, when it's members were released or returned from exile, yet for some reason you keep persistently removing "Anti-communism" from the inbox. The fact that some right-wingers criticized the party doesn't mean it wasn't Far-Right, the NSDAP also had socialist members (such as Gregor Strasser) who were eventually purged by Hitler, it was still a Far-Right party. The source arguing that the IRAA was Fascist seems to be using surpeficial caracteristics, by this logic parties like the Ustase or the Nasjonal Samling would not be Fascist, since they didn't come to power through a revolution, or a coup d'etat, nor did they have popular support, they were put on power by Nazi Germany. Lastly, the book "Grassroots Fascism: The War Experience of the Japanese People" says, on page 93, that "In October 1940, the Imperial Rule Assistance Association was formed, and with the inauguration of the New Economic Order the following year, imperial fascism was established". -- 179.183.239.112 (talk) 03:02, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
 * It's not necessary for the party to be repeatedly called Far-Right. Well, considering WP:DEFINING has A central concept used in categorizing articles is that of the defining characteristics of a subject of the article. A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define the subject as having, it seems that it is rather necessary. Everything above about the Japanese Communist Party is WP:OR; but it should be noted that the JCP was banned in 1925, fifteen years before the IRAA, likely because it was an extremist organisation that advocated violent revolution. - Ryk72 talk 21:08, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
 * What I meant is that there is no need to mention that it was Far-Right every time, for example, not every source about the NSDAP will mention that it was a Far-Right party. The Japanese Communist Party was banned under the Peace Preservation Law, a law that not only remained in effect during the rule of the IRAA, but was amended and made even harsher, in other words, Communists were persecuted under the rule of the IRAA, and Japan was also a member of the Anti-Comintern Pact and the Axis powers, which were very anti-Communist, so how wasn't the IRAA an anti-Communist Party? During that time there were many right-wing extremist organizations that were active and weren't punished, so the claim that was banned only because it was an extremist organization is bogus, futhermore, how is it original research, when it is literally on the source you linked to? Frankly it seems to me that you have an habit of distorting or ignoring things for some reason, I notice that you ignored the source I linked to. It also seems that I have to revert your disruptive edits in order for you to respond here, generating edit warring, makes it difficult to start a discussion this way, to say the least. -- 186.213.46.11 (talk) 23:37, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
 * To categorise an article subject (IRAA) as having some property (far-right, fascist, anti-communist) requires that reliable sources commonly and consistently define the subject as having that property. Based on a neutral canvassing of sources (see above), reliable sources do not seem to commonly and consistently define the IRAA as any of those. Taking the banning of the JCP in 1925 and using that as support for describing the IRAA as "anti-communist" is original research. Yoshimi Yoshiaki's Grassroots Fascism says many things about the IRAA; including in practice ... it actually functioned as little more than an apolitical auxiliary channel of bureaucratic administration. To cherrypick one sentence, which does not clearly describe the IRAA as any of "far-right, fascist, anti-communist", and interpret it as support for that categorisation is original research. Issues of editor behaviour should be taken up at the appropriate noticeboards; but were I not me, I would think carefully about that. - Ryk72 talk 23:53, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Ok, I was very rude with you and I shouldn't have been so, I apologize for that. But once again, explain how it is original research, since Communists were persecuted under the rule of the IRAA, that pretty much makes it an anti-Communist party, as for the book, how the party functioned in practice is not relevant to this discussion, we are talking about the ideology of the party, not how it functioned, if that was the case, we could simply remove every ideology that is on the party inbox right now, anyway, the book on page 93 mentions: "In October 1940, the Imperial Rule Assistance Association was formed, and with the inauguration of the New Economic Order the following year, imperial fascism was established". -- 186.213.46.11 (talk) 00:16, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Reliable sources do not commonly and consistently define the subject as any of Fascist, far-right or anti-Communist; which is our requirement in policies & guidelines for categorisation. Communist parties may have been banned during the 5 years of the IRAA (as they were for about 20 years prior to the IRAA being formed), Communists may have been persecuted, but it takes an interpretation, or analysis, to conclude that the IRAA is therefore, definitionally, anti-Communist; without reliable sources making that interpretation, it is original research; without reliable sources making that interpretation commonly and consistently it is not appropriate for categorisation. - Ryk72 talk 14:33, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Recent edits (July 2022)
Periodic unsourced additions of either fascism or far-right to either the Infobox or Categories have occurred over the last few years. These have been regularly reverted as unsourced, and contradicted by the article text.

Recently, a series of edits has added "Japanese Fascism" (piped to Fascism), and "Far-right" to the Info box; sourced to World Fascism - A Historical Encyclopedia (ed: Cyprian Blamires & Paul Jackson; pub: ABC-CLIO).

The source, editors & publisher are (presumably) reliable, but the source text does not appear to support the additions. The source goes to extensive lengths to describe the differences between Japanese politics of the period & (European) Fascism; and does not directly (nor indirectly) describe the IRAA as either "fascist" or "far right".

Invite discussion. - Ryk72 talk 12:05, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Recent edits (September 2023)
Category:Fascist Parties has again been added; with edit summary Added "fascist parties" category, as Showa Statism is a form of fascism and Imperial Japan is recognized as a fascist state. This rationale aligns poorly with WP:SYNTH.

Additionally, unlike German Nazism and Italian Fascism, statism within Showa era Japan is not a singularity. While there were a number of philosophers, politicians, militarists, etc who are identifiable as "statist", only some (e.g. Kita Ikki) are also broadly considered "Fascist". There is no one "Showa Statism".

The addition also aligns poorly with our policies & guidelines on categorisation, particularly WP:CATPOV & WP:CATDEF, the latter of which suggests that articles should be categorised by their defining characteristics - those that reliable sources commonly and consistently refer to in describing the topic.

Reliable sources do not commonly and consistently refer to this article subject as "Fascist". - Rotary Engine talk 03:24, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Infobox - Ideology
The article as currently written asserts a list of ideologies in the Infobox. At least some of these are not supported by either referenced sources or the content of the article. Propose attempting to find sources, expanding the article and, if sources cannot be found, cleaning up the Ideology list. - Ryk72 talk 05:29, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Taking each of the currently listed ideologies & referenced sources in turn...

Showa Statism, sourced to:

Militarism piped to Japanese militarism, sourced to:
 * Edwin P. Hoyt, Japan's War, p. 189. ISBN 0-07-030612-5

Totalitarianism, sourced to:

Imperialism piped to Japanese imperialism, sourced to:

Ultranationalism piped to Japanese nationalism, sourced to:

Pan-Asianism sourced to:

Rotary Engine talk 21:22, 10 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Pan-Asianism is easily addressed; the "It" described by the source in "It had..." is the Greater East Asia Co-prosperty Sphere. IRAA is not mentioned by the referenced source. - Rotary Engine talk 21:30, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Militarism similarly, the referenced source does not mention "militarism" in the context of the IRAA. Rotary Engine talk 21:52, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Imperialism, the referenced source does not mention the IRAA. Rotary Engine talk 22:04, 10 June 2023 (UTC)