Talk:Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40,000)/Archive 1

Old VfD
It appears to be a copyvio from a printed source, though I cannot verify. Note the contrast between the bulk of the text and the apparently original paragraph at the bottom. Even if it's not a copyvio, do we really need this level of detail about an old edition of a game? -Rholton 22:43, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
 * IMO, no. The only contribution by this anonymous user is this rambling diatribe and it's been orphaned since September when it was written.  Delete. - Lucky 6.9 23:09, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Wile E. Heresiarch 04:54, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Edit job. No offense to the author, but this stuff is too umm... unusually written to be a paste job. It's basically someone's personal summary of the 40K mythos, which is certainly not copyvio. I've gone over the whole article and rewritten lots to try and make it more readable. I've also added some of the themes going on behind the mythos, or an interpretation at any rate. I'm happy to modify it a bit more if that'd help. I haven't played 40K from my early teens, but nostalgia motivated me to get involved in trying to save someones keen effort... ;o) -- EuroTom 23:33, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Hey, way to go! Looks great now. - Lucky 6.9 00:32, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

Possible merge with Warhammer 40,000

 * Should we merge this with Warhammer 40,000? Perhaps include as a timeline section? -- Metahacker 16:19, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Capitalisation of pronouns
Goofy question, but in keeping in line with game material, should all pronouns in reference to the Emperor be capitalized? --Paul Soth 06:30, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

All pronouns on the Jesus page aren't capitalised so I would say no Johhny-turbo 23:36, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Regarding comparison to the Nazi movement
I dont agree with you on these points, sorry to say so but it seems more like you want it to look like the nazi movement.

answers to your examples:

-The theme of maintaining genetic purity within the human race This has nothing to do with the nazi movement, the romans thought them self superior, so did the greeks, the french, the british and i could continue. And the Imperium dont think the humans are superior, but that the emperor are. And what about all mutations of humans that also are in a Imperial army?

-The strong Roman-inspired iconography; eagles, classical architecture, decorative banners, etc. Maybe they are based on romans and not nazi's. And the nazis didnt use that much roman influence, they used more nordic.

-The idea of genetics dictating role or importance within society (the Space Marines are all genetically descended from the Emperor, by way of the Primarchs. This makes them superior to other beings*). This could also be inspired from the religious themes (Some fanatic Christians and muslims consider themself superior due to their desent from god).

The unswerving loyalty to their leader, and the God-like status their Emperor is given by them. Nazis wasnt that loyal and didnt believe in Hitler as a god. I mean come on they tried to kill the bastard twice. I think again there are more ties to religions factors.

-The Terminator Cross (Crux Terminatus), a distinction given to the greatest veterans and heroes of the Space Marines, is similar in shape to the German Iron Cross (though the Iron Cross pre-dates Nazi Germany). Or it could be based on the Knights Cross that Knights got from their king for great and loyal services.

-The Imperial Guard especially contains very obvious references to the Nazis; the game rules allow the use of a 'Blitzkrieg' attack. A strategy that was invented by the Germans but used by both Nato and Sovjet union, do you also claim that Nato and Sovjet are based on Nazi Movement?

-One of the elite Imperial Guard units are called 'Stormtroopers', and this unit's logo is a lightning flash, which is obviously similar to the SS logo and the uniforms worn by Imperial officers is very similar to the garb worn by Nazi officers (especially those of the Armageddon line). First the German troops you refer to are called Storm pioneers not Storm troopers (Stormtroopers was from 1. world war, not 2.) Secondly Storm pioneers was not part of the SS but of standard Wehrmact (Army) so no SS signs on their collar. Third the lightning could also be inspired from the blitz in Blitzkrieg (which means lightning). Fourth The armyrange from Armageddon Steel legion are loosely based around late WW1 and WW2 theme (hence the gasmasks, german appeance, mechanized support and troop transports. That is their theme, you didnt mention Catachan that looks like Rambo or any other of the themes in the Imperial Guard. When you go through them all you will find that they are all based around historical military units or famous movie soldiers (Rambo, Kelly's Hero's, Dirty Dozens). Sneaking Viper 04:22, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

The Imperium is clearly Nazi influenced.

The Romans, French, and British might have considered themselves superior, but it was a matter of nationalistic pride rather than racist fervor. Superiority isn't the question, it's an obsession with so-called "genetic purity," and the Imperium of Man and Nazis both share this obsession. Whereas the French, Roman empire, Tau, and Chaos are assimilationist, the Imperium of Man and the Nazis aren't.

The Nazis believed they were the heir to the Holy Roman Empire (the "First Reich") and used the Roman eagle, etc. in their iconography.

And the Nazis believed, at least in principle, in unswerving loyalty to the Emperor, Führerprinzip. The assassination attempts were the exception to the rule.

Beyond that, there's the obvious parallel between the Empire in Warhammer Fantasy and the Imperium in Warhammer 40k. The Empire is pretty clearly Germanic, complete with faux German names and an Emperor named Franz Josef (i.e., the Austrian Emperor during WWI). If the Imperium of Man is an update of the Empire, then it makes sense that Nazi regalia and attitudes would be included in the setting.

Other than the similarities in iconography, racism, & emperor worship, the Imperium of Man and Nazism both share a conservative attitude, a totalitarian & bureaucratic state, eugenics (e.g., the Space Marine's genetic modifications), and extreme militarism both in policy and ideals (e.g., discipline, fanaticism, social Darwinism). &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.202.230.120 (talk &bull; contribs).

Just because they are xenophobic dont really mean that they are based on nazism. Nazism is a political belief NOT like racism, and while there are elements that could be drawn to the nazi movement, it dont really mean that Games-Workshop created them with after that. The xenophobic elements could have been drawn from 1984, V for Vendetta or the religous aspects in modern religion.

Oh and by the way claiming that Nazi germany wasnt assimilationist is quite amusing, considering how much they conquered.

There were many expections to the Führerprinzip, but claiming that they (like the Imperium in W40K) worshipped Hitler is just plain dumb. Loyalty and worship is two different things you know.

While i agree that there are clear similarities between Warhammer and Warhammer 40000 imperiums, that still dont mean they are nazi influenced, you speak of nazi regalia and icons used.. name them, show them, do something to prove this. The imperial eagle is clearly roman (ie not nazi) so what nazi icons are you talking about??

Yes we could also state that the imperium are communist since there are commisars or that they are like the egyptians since they worship a "sun god". The imperium is more likely drawn together form many sources, and yes i believe that WW1 and WW2 was a very big inspirations, but also Vietnam, the middleages, the Dark age (with their religious power) and differnt movies and books has been drawn on to create the universe.

So no still im not convinced that it is based on Nazism.

Sorry --Sneaking Viper 05:53, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

This Nazi aricle doesn't belong in an encyclopedia!
I believe the whole thing or most of the aticle about Nazis and the Imperium should be deleted. It is based on speculative opinions that are farfetched. It does not belong in a Encyclopedia. You could even say that the Imperium has the viewpoint of the Roman Empire(who Hitler based a lot of his iconogy off of). There is also no parrell between Warhammer and Warhammer 40k. They are completely seperate except for the names. As for "genetic purity" the Romans themselves despised all who were unroman, and they wanted to conquer all who they considered inferior to them. The Romans also used mass numbers of troops and good tactics to beat their enemys(just add tanks for Warhammer 40k). Emporer 22:54, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with most of your points but, after looking around more, I've realized that what seemed blatantly obvious to me isn't mentioned very often at all elsewhere so, unless I find an article, it doesn't deserve to be in wikipedia. (And I'd like to note that the connection wasn't wishful thinking on my part: I just assumed that Games Workshop was making their grim universe particularly grim.)

That being said, there's quite a bit in the article that still needs to be trimmed. Unless we can find a source for the justification of the Imperium's xenophobia, for example, it has about as much reason to be included as the Nazi paragraph.

The imperium's xenophobia is highly documented and a fact. They even have an entire section of the Inquisition just to deal with it.67.162.76.82 19:41, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

If the rule books or secondary material explain or justify the Imperium's xenophobia, then it should be included in the article. If not, then there's no reason to try to present an opinion on the issue.

Size of the Imperium of Man's Army and Navy

 * Would a conservate estimate for ships be in the hundred thousands, the thousands, what? What about their land forces? I was coming across an IOM VS United Federation of Planets (ST), so I just wanted a rough estimate of the strength of the Imperium. The Gwai Lo 21:35, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Supposedly, there are around 1,000 chapters of around 1,000 Space Marines each, billions of Imperial Guard soldiers along with proportional accompanying armored, support, air, and naval units, and the Imperial Navy is comprised of...a lot of ships (millions), including the smaller strike craft. Suffice to say, the combined military might of the Imperium is enormous, but spread very thin seeing as the Imperium is spread across the whole Milky Way. Naurizt 4:57, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Conservative estimate of the strength of the Imperial Navy are around 100,000 capital ships and escorts, but not including fighters, bombers, and anything not Warp-capable. The Battlefleet Gothic rulebook and a bit of basic math can tell you that much. High end estimates reach almost 250,000,000. 100,000-250,000,000, really helpful, isn't it?


 * Traditionally, the manpower estimates in Warhammer 40k have always been woefully low. The aforementioned 1,000,000 Space Marines total, split into 1,000-man chapters, for example, is not an effective number for actual military campaigns on a planetary scale. The people who came up with the numbers were obviously not military minds. Within the fictional frame of reference of the universe, nobody is likely to be able to enumerate the grand total of Imperial military might in more than the most general of terms.

The best you can do is say "untold millions upon millions" and leave it at that. The amount of Space Marines in one chapter, unfortunately, is something of a fixture in the modern canon, insufficient as though it is. --Agamemnon2 10:41, 24 January 2006 (UTC)


 * If you want to be technical, the populations of various planetary designations are given in the 3rd edition rulebook. Using the Gothic Sector (described world for world in BFG) as a model, rough proportions can be established. Various quotes ('a million worlds, unnumbered souls' (p. 98), 'With over a million words...' (p. 98) '[the Emperor is] master of a million worlds'(p. 3), 'There are over a million star systems within the Imperium' (p. 43) - all from the 3rd ed. rulebook) indicate that there are at least one million planets in the Imperium, probably more, but definitely not more than five million or so.

Anyway, if one assumes that the Gothic Sector is completely average - it has 70 worlds, and we know their populations. Anyway, assuming the Imperium had exactly one million planets, the Gothic Sector was completely average, and averaging out max/min population values, I came to the conclusion that the Imperium has a population of 33,039,966,642,857,142 people, minimum. Probably more like 50,000,000,000,000,000 for a nice round number. Take that how you like. It's not official, but derived from official info with a few assumptions, so I think 50 quadrillion is a reasonable good estimate.

Oh, the Imperial Navy calculations come from the same place. BFG rulebook says a Sector fleet is 50-75 ships. Assuming a Sector to be 70 planets (again, using the Gothic Sector as a baseline), our minimum one million worlds gives some 14,285 Sectors, multiplied by 50 gives the Imperial Navy 714,285 ships minimum. Again, probably more - I'd say around 1.25 million is a fair estimate. Warships only, of course.

As for Space Marines... you have to remember that the vast majority of the Imperium is at peace at any given time, and that Space Marines are called in very, very rarely, since a standard PDF can handle most enemies. Even when Marines are needed, hardly any are required. 3rd ed. Codex: Space Marines has a report on a Chapter, the White Panthers, who assaulted a rebellious world, Kethra. It doesn't say how much of the Chapter was present, so assume all of it, 1000 Marines. Numbers for the defensive forces aren't given, though it's stated that they attacked two orbital stations defended by 15,000 men, easily taking them in the first stage of the campaign. Presumably Marines versus humans, Marines outnumbered 15:1, is a walk-over for the Marines. When on the ground, the Marine style of war was said to be very mobile, dividing the PDF and annihilating it piecemeal. It suggests that the Marines don't engage in any running battles and choose their fights very carefully, thanks to their superior mobility, and in this case, orbital superiority. Of course, Kethra was an anomaly - Marines usually don't go it alone - they tend to operate on the company level, supporting Imperial Guard, there's some 10,000 companies out there. If 10% of the Imperium is at war at any given time (probably too much, but whatever), they can afford a company per planet, which affords the Guard armies (usually in the billions), a select force of shock troops, vastly superior to anything the enemy can field.

Anyway, just throwing all this out there. Yours to interpret and write up. ~ Anon, 21 February 2006

Tau (moved)
Moved to Talk:Tau (Warhammer 40,000) -- Sasuke Sarutobi 14:54, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Is the imperium justified?
Their appears to be a constant pattern of change on this page on weither or not the imperium is justified. The basic arguement seems to revolve around if the Imperiums ends justify its means. The topic tends to swing from the imperium being seen as a blot upon the galaxy to a neccisary evil. Neither opnion is in fact correct as it is a matter of perspective. I beleive that the article should discuss the Imperium from a balanced veiwpoint considering all the factors and the context of the imperiums crimes.

On a side note I'd also like to comments that the 'evil factory empire' is in part incorect. The imperium is home to a vast variety of worlds the variation of personal freedom,quality of life, enviroment and standards of living actually varies to quite a large degree-something which is not really represented in the article.

>>I was the one who originally began that little edit-war. The article on the Imperium that I came across just seemed like a copy and past job of Imperium propaganda from one of the sourcebooks, rather than an actual, rational examination of this particular fictional government. The Imperium is obviously meant to be a caricature of various dystopian societies from other works of fiction, so I thought I would describe it as such. One of the hallmarks of dystopian fiction is, after all, that the society becomes far more oppressive than it actually needs to be, due to various corrupting influences like personal ambition, class warfare, and paranoia on the part of the government/corporations. -user:Manuelomar2001

High Gothic
I was under the impression that High Gothic was not Latin, merely frequently represented as such. I believe I have seen characters in one novel (Gaunt's Ghosts - The Founding) who are referred to as speaking High Gothic while their actual speech is still presented as English, although I may be mistaken. So, is the "Official Language: High Gothic (Latin)" part of the article correct? Cygnus360 11:32, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

It says in some of the fluff (from Rogue Trader I think) that Gothic and High Gothic are actually descendants of languages spoken at the moment, and are just represented by English and Latin in the game.
 * My point exactly. I'll replace it with a link to High Gothic, then. Cygnus360

I think High Gothic is latin-like and is the Aristoctatic language of the Imperium, while Low Gothic is more like English and the commoner's toung but my opinions are usualy not cannon.... Nappy The Quarryman

I've always seen it rather like the way Westron in LOTR is represented by English, and the names of the Rohirrim are in Anglo-Saxon. Nothing more than a facsimile of the "real thing". --Agamemnon2 10:44, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Here's the quote from Rogue Trader:
 * LANGUAGE, NOTE ON


 * The common language of the Imperium is represented by English, proper names have been rendered in an anglicised form. Many of the :titles of ancient institutions and organisations are presented as Latinised English (such as the Adeptus Terra). This represents an :older tongue, itself a development of Twentieth Century languages, not necessarily Latin as such.


 * This older tongue is known in the Imperium as "Tech", being a version of the language in which technical rituals and ancient works :are recorded. This developed during the Dark Age of Technology (in fact a golden age from the point of view of science - it is only :dark in the minds of the men who now fear it). It derives from the common tongue of the time, an assimilation of English, European :and Pacific languanges which developed over many centuries in the American/Pacific region. This was the universal medium of written :record until the Age of Strife, and was spoken as a first language by many and as a second languange by almost everyone. Its idioms :and vocabulay now appear archaic and mystic, many of its words have acquired religious significance over the years. It is the :language of the Tech-priests and of forbidden books.


 * The common tongue of the Age of the Imperium is spoken as a first language on almost all civilised planets, and is accepted as a :second language on planets within Imperial control with the exception of some medieval and feral worlds. This is a bastardised :version of Tech, combining additional elements from several of the oriental languages of ancient Earth. Over the millennia it has :changed greatly, and now bears almost no resemblance to the tongues from which it derived. Although a common language, it varies :from planet to planet (and even from region to region), so that it is not always easy for two characters to communicate if they are :from different worlds.


 * Medival, feral and worlds suffering from long periods of isolation may have several indigenous languages derived either from Tech :or one of the ancient Earth tongues. It was quite common during the Dark Age of Technology for worlds to be settled by small :communities of 'isolationists'. These eccentric groups were often self financed and their journals unrecorded, many were of racial :minorities attempting to recreate a sense of national identity away from the overpopulated Earth. Some of these groups made a :deliberate attempt to revive long dead or moribund languages, perceiving them as a source of national identity and communal strength.

-Peyote Koyote (not signed in)

Emperor Could Have Easily Beaten Horus?
Looking at other pages on this topic, none say that the Emperor could have easily beaten Horus if he had not underestimated Horus' corruption. I don't know that this is wrong, but because it is missing on every other 40k page I have seen on Wikipedia, it seems questionable. If anyone knows definitively, please change it.

I believe that in White Dwarf 131, it was stated that the Emperor was holding back the whole time during the battle with Horus, and when he finally unleashed his full power Horus was disintegrated - http://www.thewarp.net/war/stern/emperorvshorus.html
 * But the Black Legion's Index Astartes article states that Horus' body was easily recoverable by Abaddon. My understanding on the matter is that the Emperor was the more powerful of the two, but held back until he understood the depth of Hours' corruption - and even then the fiht could have gone either way. Saberwyn - The Zoids  Expansion Project 21:26, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

It is currently believed that not only did the Emperor underestimate Horus' corruption, but also was not willing to kill the person whom he considered his closest friend, and believed he could make Horus "return to the light". Only when Horus struck the near-fatal blow, did the Emperor finally his error, and deal he killing blow the Horus. The fact that the Emperor managed to kill Horus whilst nearly dead also proves that he could have easily defeated Horus earlier. Vanghar 19:42, 06 January 2006 (UTC)

Split the Emperor?
YES PLEASE! The original article was merged into here in the long-before, because it was the best place thet could fit it. Based on the information we now have on the Emperor, and the fact that we could expand and elaborate on it, I will support a move out of this section.

The only problems I see are: 1) The heading shouldn't be the tougne-twister it is. Can we find a simpler name to use? 2) Who volunteers to redirect all the Emperor-for-*******-saken wikilinks?! Saberwyn - The Zoids  Expansion Project 21:30, 14 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I made the split suggestion originally, but forgot to comment on it here. Yes, the article should have a simpler name, maybe "The Emperor of Mankind" or "The Emperor (Warhammer 40,000)". The fact that there ARE gzillions of wikilinks straight to the emperor section is evidence that it should be split. --Agamemnon2 09:44, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Emperor of Mankind sounds good. I don't think there are too many of those. Saberwyn - The Zoids  Expansion Project 11:57, 15 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Sounds like a good idea to me as well. I'd be prepared to spend some time tracking down the links &mdash; I spend a fair amount of my Wikipedia time on maintainence tasks, so this wouldn't put me out too much. Cheers --Pak21 11:44, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
 * OK, that didn't actually take too long. See the Emperor links sub-page for a list of the pages I found. --Pak21 12:43, 19 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Thankyou kindly. Saberwyn - The Zoids  Expansion Project 19:23, 19 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Let's try and get this one moving again: a first draft of a proposed breakout is at User talk:Pak21/Emperor of Mankind (Warhammer 40,000). Please feel very free to edit and generally mess around with (especially the section headings, which I'm not happy with). Cheers --Pak21 18:24, 21 January 2006 (UTC)


 * With contributions from others and a copyedit from me, I now feel the page is acceptable for moving into the main namespace. Any objections, please shout. One technical issue remains: there's already a redirect (to here) at Emperor of Mankind (Warhammer 40,000). I could list this on Requested Moves and wait five days for consensus, but does anyone know if there's a better way to do this??
 * There seems to be pretty broad consensus among interested editors, so I decided to just go ahead. Don't really like that "Present day" header, since it smacks of my own "The Imperium today" header here that was almost immediately pruned out. Finding an alternative proved more difficult, though. Although the Help page on moving articles strongly suggests we stay away from cut-and-paste, it offers no alternatives in the case of article splitting, so cut-and-paste was what I did. I only put in one link to the Emperor page, in the initial history parts. Think more will be needed? Cygnus360 23:23, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The idea of doing a move rather than a copy-and-paste was to keep the not completely trivial page history of "my talk page". But it's not like there was that much of it anyway, so it's not really that important. Cheers --Pak21 13:33, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Themes and Alternate Themes
Reading these 2 sections it is obvious that they are Original Reasearch. I propose that either a reference is provided for this surmissions or they be deleted under WP:NOR, WP:CITE and WP:NPOV. -Localzuk (talk) 10:51, 18 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Looks to me like there are a few snippets that can be salvaged and merged into the "History of the Imperium" and "Background to the Imperium in other Science Fiction" sections, but I agree that the section headings and the bulk of the material should go. -- Saberwyn 11:27, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

I am going to delete the nazi section because it is just speculation and doesn't belong in an ecyclopedia.Emporer 05:04, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Background additions
A section of information which I previously reverted has just been readded. To me, this section is very much unsourced speculation and PoV and doesn't belong in a Wikipedia article, but I'll float it here before removing again. Any views? Cheers --Pak21 09:31, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Gene-Seed
I remember there was a page dedicated to the Geen-Seeds of the Space Marines, and their functions. Anyone can point me to that page? Can't find it. =/ NeoDeGenero (talk) 15:22, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Population
The current population on the sidebar says "Unknown but vast, likely hundreds of trillions"

Does this number seem a tad bit too high for anyone else?


 * Its about right for an estimate. You have to remember, the Imperium spans the whole galaxy (or most of it) and there are thousands and thousands of worlds. If a planet has a billion people (in the fiction and in the Codexes, every planet invaded seemed to be home to billions of people) than trillions or even quadrillions is correct. By accounts of Terra, it seems like the whole planet is as population dense as a busy New York City day. SanchiTachi 15:41, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention the fact that Terra's seas and Poles are all gone, the density of people must be amazing and hellish. I wonder if there's a Neo Neo Neo Neo Neo Neo Neo Neo Neo Tokyo district, lol. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

Holy Terra itself is shown to have a population in the quadrillions as per the Horus Heresy series of novels. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.153.0.222 (talk) 02:07, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

"Hundreds of trillions" is probably a conservative estimate. The Imperium is supposed to span one million+ worlds, and a lot of them are hive planets, with individual hives having populations in the hundreds of millions to billions, with dozens or hundreds of hives scattered across their surfaces. The Imperium is really, really big. Peptuck (talk) 21:33, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Well for every Hive World you are going to need an AgriWorld to feed it, and these would have a pretty small population. But if you have a Million planets, half of which are at least a Billion people, then "Hundreds of Trillions" is about right.--194.106.137.50 (talk) 08:36, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

5th edition now points to the Imperium having single to possibly double digit quadrillions. - Locutus

If you go by the Necromundo source book there are about 1,000 hive worlds in Imperium, each hive has 1 to 50 billion people in it, and each planet has to have at least 1,000 hives on it to be considered an official hive world. That means there's somewhere between 1 and 50 quadrillion humans in the Imperium's hive worlds alone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.237.222.1 (talk) 18:34, 7 March 2010 (UTC)