Talk:Iníon Dubh

First improvement - please add "The Black-Haired Daughter"
This article needs a bit of improvement. First, the title is using a modern form of Irish orthography, while historically the Irish orthography differed. See https://www.monreaghulsterscotscentre.com/project/1404/#:~:text=Mongalvin%20Castle%27s%20most%20famous%20resident,The%20Black%20Haired%20Daughter%27). So probably both older and recent Irish forms should be inserted in the article, and the English translation – "The Black-Haired Daughter", and to what personality characteristics it alludes to. 2601:40F:4082:5660:180A:DD44:2FCE:6247 (talk) 10:33, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

I have noted that the spelling of her nickname differs greatly across sources - Ineen Dubh, Ineen Duv, An Inghean Dubh and Iníon Dubh. Let me know if you think this needs to be put in the main body text of the article.

SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 13:45, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Hugh 'Gavelach' O'Donnell
I think this reference is to the man usually called Hugh Mac an Déagánaigh (son of the Dean) O'Donnell, alleged illegitimate son of Calvagh, older 1/2 brother of the Iníon Dubh's husband, Sir Hugh. There may possibly be a stray reference to his supposed paternity which mangles Calvagh's name into something resembling 'Gavelach', but strictly speaking, I believe the only known Irish dynast to use that cognomen was Hugh 'Géimhleach' ('of the fetters') O'Neill, who was hung by the 2nd Earl of Tyrone in 1590. Hugh 'Gavelach' O'Neill was son of Shane the Proud O'Neill.

Hugh Mac an Déagánaigh 's descent from Calvagh O'Donnell seems to have been taken seriously by the Crown, as he is the recipient of some land grants. But his cognomen indicates that he belonged to that sept of the O'Gallaghers settled near Letterkenny. Calvagh O'Donnell's granddaughter, Rose, married a man of that sept, Toole Mac Owen O'Gallagher, who later became an important supporter of Red Hugh, and both of them are mentioned in a general pardon of the 1st Earl of Tyrconnell's party in 1603. Hiram Morgan suggested that Hugh Mac an Déagánaigh actually was an O'Gallagher, but that he had been promoted as a son of Calvagh in an overt fiction, in order to preserve the place of Calvagh's descendants within the derbfine after the death of Conn in 1583, before his sons Niall Garbh, Hugh Boy and Conn Óg had reached maturity.

A couple of other O'Donnell men bearing the cognomen Mac an Déagánaigh appear in pardons up through Sir Cahir O'Doherty's rebellion in 1609, but none of them appear to have received land grants in and around Mevagh parish, as other members of the O'Donnell dynasty did in conjunction with the Plantation. They seem to disappear completely after that point.

Here are links to the University of Cork's website for both the relevant English and Irish language entry in the Annals of the Four Masters (M1588.15). The man called Hugh 'Gavelach' by Wikipedia is actually Hugh 'Mac an Déagánaigh'. I think Wikipedia is just simply in error in this case.

https://celt.ucc.ie/published/G100005E/index.html

https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100005E/index.html

I can't find any reference to a Hugh 'Gavelach' O'Donnell outside of Wikipedia. JackMason1 (talk) 05:06, 19 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Thanks for bringing this up JackMason1, I believe you're correct that this man has been confused with Hugh Gavelach O'Neill.


 * Emmett O'Byrne calls him "Aodh O'Gallagher" (https://www.dib.ie/biography/macdonnell-nic-dhomhnaill-fiona-fionnghuala-inion-dubh-a6337} and Hiram Morgan calls him "Hugh MacEdegany O'Gallagher" (Tyrone's Rebellion, 1993). Which name do we want to use?


 * When it comes to the historical figures of Gaelic Ireland, I generally prefer the anglicised names due to WP:USEENGLISH. However there may be a genuine argument to use the Irish-language name in this case.


 * Perhaps "Hugh Mac an Déagánaigh O'Donnell", "Hugh MacEdegany O'Donnell" or "Hugh MacDean O'Donnell"?


 * Are you opposed to using the surname O'Gallagher for him?

SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 14:05, 19 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Thanks for curating this article, Skywalker. I think Hugh MacEdegany O'Donnell is the fairest version.
 * O'Byrne and Hiram Morgan probably are correct to say he was an O'Gallagher, but I have never seen any contemporary source call him O'Gallagher. But his cognomen definitely references a specific sept of the O'Gallaghers.  AFM 1588.15 represents him both as O'Donnell and O'Gallagher, but it's only near contemporary, being written about a generation or so after the fact, and it's fair to question whether it has a bias in favor of the Donegal Castle faction of the clan, to which the Iníon Dubh and Red Hugh belonged, and who were opposed to the Lifford faction, whose interests Hugh MacEdegany represented.


 * Without more contemporary information than probably survives, the possibility remains open that "MacEdegany" specifically references the sept of Hugh's mother, or the sept where Hugh was fostered, analogous to the way Shane the Proud O'Neill was usually called Shane Donnghaileach, after his foster family, the O'Donnellys.

JackMason1 (talk) 18:17, 19 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Sounds good. I will update this page (as well as the page Sir Hugh O'Donnell) to use "Hugh MacEdegany O'Donnell". MacEdegany for short, to avoid confusion with the other Hugh O'Donnells. SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 00:34, 20 July 2024 (UTC)