Talk:Incarceration

Reference to Christian religion unbalanced
The article currently states QUOTE There are many reasons given for justification of such punishment. In the 16th century, the Bishop of Trier, Binsfeld, in his Tractatus de Confessionibus Maleficorum (1596) claimed that since the sinfulness of the world increases, God also allows increasing the severity of punishments. UNQUOTE The article must include a proper exegetical summary of Biblical viewpoints on incarceration and - if one insists - references like the one above. The exegesis will demonstrate that the Bishop of Trier acted on his won account and certainly not on Biblical grounds. PROPOSE: Remove the Bishop's quote, OR keep the quote but add a short paragraph on the reality that the Bible advocates restitution as the basis for Justice, nor incarceration. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JJAlexander (talk • contribs) 14:32, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Incarceration rates by country
Why is it reporting selected crime figures in this section? Oddly only crime figures for low-incarceration countries seem to be in here. With odd emphasis on Ireland's crime rate, while violent crime in the US is ignored! Suggest crime stats be removed.

Redirect?
This should not be a redirect to prison; one can be incarcerated in many other places than a prison.

DryGrain 17:47, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

This article is a mess
Wow! This article is a real mess. A good encyclopedia article (or any survey article in any context, for that matter) should start with a basic definition of the subject before plunging into an in-depth discussion. Keep in mind that not all Wikipedia users are mature well-educated adults who already know that incarceration means imprisonment. --Coolcaesar 01:12, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Let's delete it! David Cruise 08:15, 12 March 2006 (UTC)


 * In supper for "This article is a mess"


 * I agree that this article is very poorly written. The introduction and the first few sections are shallow and contain what I would describe as "common-sense" information. They do not systematically present the definition of incarceration and its variations, they do not present a coherenti historical view, and they do not discuss theories of incarceration. There was a "religios perspectives" section that did not talk about incarceration, instead, it talked about different religions and how they differ among each other without reference to incarceration, so I deleted that section. --- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.126.151.171 (talk) 02:40, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Incarceration

 * Delete Wow! This article is a real mess. A good encyclopedia article (or any survey article in any context, for that matter) should start with a basic definition of the subject before plunging into an in-depth discussion. David Cruise 10:41, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep. "Article needs cleanup" is not a reason to delete, it's a reason to, you know, clean it up. &#8212;Cryptic (talk) 18:49, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * This afd nomination was orphaned. Listing now. —Crypticbot (operator) 18:54, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep. The article is a mess? So fix it. Monicasdude 19:13, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep &mdash; Invalid AfD criteria. Topic is highly notable &mdash; RJH 19:52, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep . — Adrian~enwiki (talk) 20:22, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep as cryptic says "Article needs cleanup" is not a reason to delete, it's a reason to, you know, clean it up. There's much useful information in the article and it even has citations. You need a new job. pat8722 22:45, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep speedy if possible. kotepho 00:13, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep and cleanup. Capitalistroadster 02:32, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep and cleanup --Khoikhoi 08:44, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Punkmorten 10:31, 18 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Thursday, September 2, 2010. I added a 3rd purpose for incarceration, as widely recognized by legal experts:  to deter others from committing criminal acts.  PS - sorry, I don't know how to add my own section here  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roller)coaster55 (talk • contribs) 19:32, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Definition Removed?
Will somebody please tell me why my addition of a definition of incarceration (direct from Latin) was removed, and the page reverted? Aeh4543 17:37, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Firstly, because I reverted to Wikipedia style. The first word of the article should (generally) be the same word/words as the heading. Secondly, as this article is called Incarceration the object is to explain Incarceration, and definitely not to start with an explanation of where the "The term incarcerate" comes from, as you did. Note our Main Page article today, "Cryptography". We say what it is, not where the name comes from. Cheers. Moriori 23:40, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the info! :-)Aeh4543 14:00, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Worldwide View
Can the person who placed the warning sign comment on what they would like to see improved on this page? I think this page has a great potential to be very informative and interesting, but needs a greater discussion and direction to what is missing and what needs to be fixed and edited. Thanks! Leah 22:51, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The tag was inserted by User:205.118.16.153 who didn't explain his reasons for it. You can contact him on his talk page here. Moriori 01:13, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Total number incarcerated in the USA. World incarceration rates.
--Timeshifter 22:22, 15 August 2006 (UTC). Concerning this graph: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Incarceration.jpg - The total number of inmates in the USA is much higher than is currently indicated by the graph (1,500,000 in 2005) linked above. See the correct total in this image:
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:USA._Prisoners_1995_to_2005.gif

The total number incarcerated in the USA is actually a little less than 2.3 million inmates in 2005.

I like the graph, though. Could someone redo it with the accurate number of US inmates as indicated in the graphs, tables, and links here:
 * http://gallery.marihemp.com/charts
 * http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/y/ratesusa.htm
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:USA._Prisoners_1995_to_2005.gif

World incarceration rates are here:
 * http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/y/world.htm

I would like to learn how to create graphs. Could people who create such graphs leave short descriptions on the talk pages for some of their graph and chart images? Please put some of the wikipedia graph image URLs here, too, so that I can get to the talk pages for the images. I know how to create images from selections of pdf files. I also know how to use Irfanview image editing freeware. But I don't know how to create line graph images, or bar graph images. Thanks for directing me to any help or FAQs.

I am working on charts of world incarceration rates in my sandbox here:
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Timeshifter/Sandbox

Feel free to use my sandbox ideas, links, etc..

Back to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Incarceration.jpg - I edited the line graph image syntax here so that it now shows up as a clickable thumb image at 450 pixels. When the image is clicked one sees the full size image.

The smaller image size here allows text to flow around the image for monitors set at any resolution down to 1024 by 768 pixels. That is a common resolution for 17 inch monitors and some 15 inch monitors.

If someone updates that line graph they can upload the new version in the "file history" section of the image page. The new updated image will show up here without having to make any changes here.

--Timeshifter 00:23, 26 August 2006 (UTC). I have deleted the old inaccurate graph. Here is the code that was used for it:



I substituted an accurate chart for world incarceration rates. --Timeshifter 22:22, 15 August 2006 (UTC).
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Incarceration_rates_worldwide.gif


 * Perhaps it is accurate, but it is highly biassed with that large caption and everything. It also includes a mere handful of countries (plus one region's average). A list of incarceration rates on a separate page and the graph redone to a per-region graph could be better. --MinorContributor 12:25, 23 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Sounds like a good idea. Now if only someone could do it... :)
 * I don't know how to create such images. I hope somebody creates better chart, table, and graph images from the data. Maybe a wiki table too. --Timeshifter 23:18, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

The map and graph is inconsistent with the article unless I've misread. Both graphics place the U.S. at a rate of 700 per 100,000 (edit: apparently as of 2008 --76.221.82.31 (talk) 14:56, 11 July 2012 (UTC) ) ; the article mentions a rate of just over 500 per 100,00 (as of 2009). --76.221.82.31 (talk) 14:42, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually the facts of the graphics are in question.  I realize different studies may come up with different measures, but I think something ought to make light of why these are inconsistent. --76.221.82.31 (talk) 14:48, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Incarceration Works
I cannot believe how slanted this article is in its criticism of incarceration rates of the Unites States! I don’t understand why an encyclopedia article should be reduced to some screed about rates of incarceration, but if it must, then some semblance of balance would be an improvement. If you are going to post the rates of incarceration in the United States, then you must also post the rates of victimization for the same time period. If you go to the Bureau of Justice Statistics page and look at those statistics, you will find that there exists an inverse relationship between incarceration rate and crime rate. To those who sit safely in their homes and decry the fact that a large number of people are incarcerated, I would submit the following: The fact that, compared to ten years ago, you are much less likely to be burglarized, robbed, car-jacked, raped, or assaulted, is related to the fact that the person most likely to do so is incarcerated. I don't think it gets any more simple than that. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Flyoverme (talk • contribs) 16:05, 1 January 2007 (UTC).


 * Actually, you are incorrect. If you check the incarceration rates of other nations you will see that many times the ones with the lowest incarceration rates often have the lowest crime rates. Feel free to add the comparative stats. Many people would be interested in it. If you sit at home and listen to talk radio hosts like Rush Limbaugh, and go to websites such as the FreeRepublic forums, then you might actually believe the screeds you are spouting. --Timeshifter 16:28, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I should have labeled it "Incarceration Works in America." Then I would be "correct." If you do the comparative analysis you mention you'll notice that the US has been, until recently, one of the most violent countries in the world. Now that probably goes back to the disparity in income, access to weapons, etc, that are some of the "predictor variables" that are discussed in the article. But the fact remains. The reduction in crime rate over the past 20 years can, almost wholly, be attributed to the increase in incarceration rate. All of the "predictors that are mentioned in the article will produce a rate of crime and victimization that, if the predictors remain constant, will remain constant. If you are not willing to meet that with incarceration rates that match the level of victimization, then you will see an increase in crime, or victimization. The same holds true for education, and other social services, such as health care. As the population grows, so does the need for more schools, social services, and (horror of horrors) prisons. Regarding your aspersions to my character and credentials to include my view here: You make the assumption, common in many who have, what they feel to be, an “enlightened” view of the world, that if someone doesn't agree with your view, then he/she is a right-wing nut case. (The Democratic Party could learn a lesson in inclusion here.) I happen to be a lifelong Democrat, and in 2000, I voted for the Green Party candidate. If I had to pigeonhole myself, I would say I am a Socialist. But I also own and carry a firearm and do not believe that there is justification in social ills for crime, and victimization. By the way, I am also a Parole Officer and work with the “over incarcerated” population that is the subject of this discussion. If you really believe that they are not dangerous, and you must believe that, if you believe that the United States is incarcerating too many people, then I’m sure you wouldn’t mind if I sent one or two to move in next door to you. --Flyoverme 21:54, 1 January 2007 (UTC)


 * You are the one who used the word "screed" and you are the one who went into hyperbole mode: "To those who sit safely in their homes and decry the fact that a large number of people are incarcerated". If you can't stand the heat then get out of the kitchen. Wikipedia is not a political discussion forum, so we should both stop that kind of gamesmanship. But we can discuss NPOV ways of including all viewpoints worldwide on incarceration, its effectiveness, or lack of effectiveness, etc.. Other nations use higher minimum wages, universal healthcare, and better welfare systems. Studies have shown that money spent in those areas is much more effective in lowering the crime rate than money spent on incarceration. Studies in the USA have shown that for parolees and released prisoners the lack of jobs for ex-inmates, the lack of healthcare (especially mental healthcare) for poor people and ex-inmates, and the lack of even something so basic as a place to stay for ex-inmates, are predictors of recidivism. As a parole officer I am sure you know this very well. Maybe you can discuss those recidivism studies in the article. You are probably an expert at the ground level for what these academic studies show. Social ills may not be a moral justification for crime. But they are statistical predictors of crime. So a pragmatic approach in some nations has been to deal with crime pragmatically and not religiously. And some of those nations pay less in total taxes than people in the USA pay in total taxes (on average per person as a percent of their nation's economy). --Timeshifter 07:53, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


 * This is especially true if one adds in the amount of private healthcare dollars spent in the USA. Versus the healthcare costs paid with taxes. Americans pay more per person for healthcare and taxes than people in many other nations. See:
 * http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/y/taxes.htm
 * http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/y/universal.htm --Timeshifter 09:12, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Obviously Timeshifter has taken some sort of proprietary hold of this particular Wikipedia page and feels compelled to defend the contents. However, no matter what was written in response to my first posting, the contention contained within it, that as the incarceration rate in the United States has risen over the past 20 years, every measure of crime and victimization has fallen, has not been disproved. No other explanation, that makes any sense, has been proposed to account for the correlation. If your goal in incarcerating people is to prevent or lower the rate of crime, then, by every measure, it has achieved the desired results. If you consult all of the graphs and statistics on the Bureau of Justice Statistics page, it's as plain as day. If the content of a page in Wikipedia that mentions the incarceration rate of the United States and compares it negatively with other countries cannot include this fact, on equal footing with the facts about the incarceration rate, then the page is dishonest and is a disservice to those who consult Wikipedia for information. Until the above stated correlation between incarceration rate and crime rate is refuted using reputable measures and statistics, or such information is included in the page on equal footing, then I would view this page as extremely slanted in it’s view of incarceration.

As far as bringing my personal experience as a Parole Officer to the discussion of the figures and statistics, I can sum it up like this: Every parolee, who I have worked with, went to prison because they either committed a crime that was so offensive or severe that they deserved to be there, or they proved, through their behavior, after being given multiple chances, that they could not be trusted to remain on probation. The experience of incarceration can have a formative effect on an individual, and they can come out of the experience determined to live a lawful lifestyle. These, in my experience, are few. They are either mildly antisocial and the prison experience so shocks them that they become determined to live within the law, or they are someone who experiences something along the lines of a religious conversion or the type of turnabout experienced by those who honestly apply the principles of a twelve-step program. The majority, unless held to some level of accountability or structure, will re-offend, usually in the same manner as the offense that sent them there. Contrary to popular belief, our prisons are not full of non-violent drug users and the wrongfully imprisoned. Rather they are filled with anti-social people who have little desire to adhere to the same set of laws and morals as everyone else. Thus, they have to be removed from society for the well being of the innocent. To paraphrase John Houseman in the old “Smith-Barney” commercials: “They earned it.” I believe that the big, embarrassing lie in corrections is that “rehabilitation”, with very few exceptions, doesn’t work. I can’t count the number of offenders who have said to me, upon hearing that I was recommending revocation of their probation or parole; “How is going to prison going to help me?” To which I reply; “It’s not about you, it’s about the rest of us.” I think I’ve said enough, so this will be it. Ciao. --Flyoverme 04:04, 4 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I apologize if it sounded like I was "biting the newcomers" to this article. I have written very little of this article. I mostly only added some charts. Feel free to add more info to the article. I have read articles discussing your point of view. Feel free to quote from them, and to add reference links to them. I have also read many articles discussing other points of view, including the ones I mentioned previously. I think it would be great to hear more viewpoints in the article. Wikipedia guidelines ask that all significant points of view be in an article. --Timeshifter 13:57, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Stats
Incarceration costs $25,000 a year on average per inmate in the USA. That does not include costs of police, courts, parole and probation officers, etc.. All those costs are listed here:
 * http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/exptyptab.htm
 * http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/expgovtab.htm

There are nations that spend less in total taxes than the USA per capita and they have lower crime rates and much lower incarceration rates. Total taxes in various nations as a percent of their total economy (GDP, Gross Domestic Product):
 * http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/TaxFacts/TFDB/TFTemplate.cfm?Docid=307&Topic2id=95 --Timeshifter 07:53, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Illustration
I don't understand the illustration at the top of this article (Image:Tullianum.jpg). What is it a picture of? —Bkell (talk) 06:01, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree. If the top part of the image is a side-on view, I can't tell what the bottom part is, nor what the blocks of brown indicate. I feel that a re-creation of this image is in order, by someone who understands the entire content. It's a pretty poorly scanned image, as it is. User:Tass-AJ 125.63.229.201 08:58, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Okay, since no one has been able to explain this image for over a year, I'm going to remove it. —Bkell (talk) 01:52, 30 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I've nominated the image for deletion; anyone interested in keeping the image can contribute to the deletion discussion. —Bkell (talk) 01:59, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Philosophy of Imprisonment
Surely there have been philosophers who have dealt with this rather serious issue, have there not? Vranak (talk) 20:49, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Proposal, made by another editor, to merge Imprisonment into this article
Oppose unless further explanation is forthcoming. Imprisonment is a term of art which includes the tort and crime of false imprisonment. It is not clear to me that incarceration is a term of art at all. It is not clear to me that it includes false imprisonment (I do not think that a hostage would normally be described as incarcerated, whereas he is certainly technically imprisoned). And we have incarceration defined as "the detention of a person in prison", whereas the legal definition of imprisonment is detention of a person anywhere, including, in particular, places other than the type of institution to which the term "prison" normally refers.

I made the post above on 24 March but forgot to sign it. James500 (talk) 16:29, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

I am going to remove the tags because no one has expressed any interest in this proposal. James500 (talk) 16:03, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Oppose. I think you are correct, comes from carcer = prison, thus is less general. Littledogboy (talk) 00:04, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Oppose and merge Incarceration *into* Imprisonment. This article is mostly a cork-board for overblown propaganda. For instance, the incarceration rate for the US is currently probation. Roughly eyeballing the math, about 60% of the US rate consists of people who aren't actually behind bars (meaning that the country isn't "the worst").--Froglich (talk) 22:52, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - Imprisonment isn't the only type of custodial sentence. You would have to make sure that the material in this article doesn't relate to any of the others. James500 (talk) 06:31, 16 July 2013 (UTC)