Talk:Incest in popular culture/Archive 1

Restructuring
I think the article needs to be restructured. Aside from the very long lead paragraph, the division into sub-headers seems un-intuitive. I was looking for a place to add an entry for brother-sister incest in a novel (mentioned in Page by Tamora Pierce) and couldn't find anywhere in the current division where it wouldn't be out of place. I'd have started restructuring immediately, but I'm not sure what the best organization would be: by types of incest (consensual/rape, adult/child etc.), by family relationships or by format (music, television, books etc.), and in what order. So, I'm bringing it up for discussion. LeaHazel : talk : contribs 17:59, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I believe that "by format" is the best form of division but you do raise an interesting point. What does everyone else think? Perhaps, even, the page could discuss incest in popular culture and then briefly discuss the impact and use of incest in each format, then perhaps link to individual pages, such as Incest in Film, Incest in Literature, Incest in Theatrical works etc. WookMuff 22:39, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

– — … ‘ “ ’ ” ° ″ ′ ≈ ≠ ≤ ≥ ± − × ÷ ← → · §

Drilling down on this External Link: http://www.pemmicanpress.com/articles/earl-thompson-tom-page.html

On this Web page:

On this Web site http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Thompson

Yields these quotes:

“In these novels Thompson relates the story of an incestuous relationship with his mother. . .”

“Nominated for a National Book Award and selected by the Book of the Month Club, he was difficult, recognized, and popular.”

CdrZr (talk) 23:50, 7 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure there's enough material to split the article into forks by format. The problem is, "incest" is a very loaded word that can mean a lot of different things. Should incest between step-family be separated from incest between blood relations because the incest taboo is primarily related to inbreeding? Should it be separated by issues of consent, because in some contexts "incest" has become synonimous with sexual abuse/molestation? Molestation in fiction is very different from consensual incest in fiction, the latter of which is arguably more controversial. Also, what about whether or not there's knowledge of the family relationships, as in the House episode Fools for Love?
 * How do we address all these different issues? Maybe the list should be recreated as a table, where each issue is addressed on a case-by-case basis, without making the article seem messy and cluttered. LeaHazel : talk : contribs 09:27, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * This article was cut and pasted from the incest article so, yes, it's not well structured. Happy for anyone to volunteer.  "My bits" are the stuff related to literature/films. Tony 23:21, 17 January 2007 (UTC)Tony

List...
Ok, I know wikipedia is not a list or collection of lists, but this article is incredibly random, bouncing around like a superball. I think that just changing it to a list of examples of incest in each category would improve the article terribly. WookMuff 21:05, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


 * See WP:LISTS for Wikipedia's policy of lists. I think a midway format between list and paragraph would be best, since the subject needs so much explanation. Also, the division into sub-headers here needs to be overhauled. LeaHazel : talk : contribs 10:05, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Proposed merge
I proposed adding Incest between twins to this, it seems to be a similar list and probably doesn't deserve its own page. The way, the truth, and the light 01:25, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I do not think a merge is appropriate, for the reasons laid out below:


 * 1) The article Incest between twins is about a subclass of sibling incest, whereas this article is about incest in pop culture generally.
 * 2) The article Incest between twins includes information that does not fit into "pop culture". For instance, Balinese culture (real culture, not pop culture), pornography, and also folk culture (I would dispute the classification of The Ring of the Nibelung as a part of popular culture).
 * 3) Incest between twins is a viable topic that is the subject of multiple academic sources (although I admit it could use expansion).
 * 4) The article Incest between twins survived an AfD debate, whereas this article may become subject to deletion as an "in popular culture" list. -- Black Falcon (Talk) 01:41, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Black Falcon. Although the lists appear similar now, incest between twins is a sufficiently distinct topic that has the potential to be expanded, and it already contains information not suitable here. –Pomte 06:50, 3 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Let me respond. The article Incest between twins consists mostly of a list that's calles 'Examples in popular culture' and references this article. The statement about Balinese culture, as well as any other scientific information that might be added, belong in the article Incest. There is no separate article 'Sibling incest', either. The way, the truth, and the light 15:57, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * That the "Examples in popular culture" section currently dominates the Incest between twins article is a sign that the article needs to be expanded with more sourced analsysis. Also, though I dislike the title "Examples in popular culture", I have a hard time thinking of a better one ... I'd go with "in fiction", but that doesn't cover all of the examples noted or relevant. Moreover, a dual merge (to here and to incest) still does not address my 3rd and 4th points. "Incest between twins" is a distinct topic with the (as yet unrealised) capacity for expansion, as evidenced by the inclusion of numerous secondary scholarly sources, which this article (though it's a valid topic) currently lacks. I have listed below other academic sources that are either fully dedicated to or discuss the subject:
 * Bixler (1983), "Homosexual Twin Incest Avoidance", Journal of Sex Research
 * Cohen (2005), "I la Galigo", Asian Theatre Jounral
 * Devereux (1941), "Mohave Beliefs concerning Twins", American Anthropologist
 * Finney (1983), "Self-Reflexive Siblings: Incest as Narcissism in Tieck, Wagner, and Thomas Mann", The German Quarterly
 * Glenn (1966), "Opposite-Sex Twins", Journal of the American Psychoanalytic Association
 * Johnson (1986), "The Labyrinth of Incest in Nabokov's Ada", Comparative Literature
 * Myers (1982), "Homosexuality, sexual dysfunction, and incest in male identical twins", Canadian Journal of Psychiatry
 * Shorr (1965), "Meetings of the New York Psychoanalytic Society", Psychoanalytic Quarterly
 * I am currently tied up with various real-life obligations, but I will use these and other sources which I haven't listed to expand the article when I can. -- Black Falcon (Talk) 18:19, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I will take the lack of response four several days as consent to remove the merge tags. There is sufficient scholarly interest on the subject from an anthropological, biological, cultural, and sociological perspective to merit a separate article and, as I wrote above, I will expand the article with scholarly sources soon. -- Black Falcon (Talk) 23:30, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Additional Novel, Robots of Dawn
I read this book more than 15 years ago, and my memory is a little hazy. I'll leave it someone who knows the book better to fill in the details on the main article. In Isaac Asimov's The Robots of Dawn, it is revealed that Humans living on Aurora have eliminated all genetic conditions and risks including the ones associated with incest. They routinely engage in father-daughter sexual relationships. It is expected to happen and Aurorans considered it normal and healthy. If I recall, it is traditional for the daughter initiate such relationships. One of the main Auroran characters, Han Fastolfe, is a bit odd in many ways and denied his daughter's advances; possibly as a physiological experiment out of pure curiosity. This is one of his many oddities that cause his daughter to be bitter. --75.109.248.53 03:16, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Another book...
Flowers in the Attic and indeed the entire Dollanganger Virginia Andrews series depicts incest (the mother and father of the children were half brother and sister, the brother and sister Cathy and chris also develop an incestous relationship and in the prequel Garden of Shadows, Malcolm Foxworth is obsessed with the memory of his dead mother Corinne even saying her name during the rape of his own wife and the rape of his step mother) perhaps someone with more experience editing pages can add this in? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.97.212.98 (talk) 21:40, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Heather Nova "Island" song reference
This article claims that Heather Nova's song "Island" is about father-daughter incest, but I have never heard this theory before and see nothing in the song to support this idea. The song is definitely about an abusive relationship, but there is nothing to suppose the abuser as the father. Rather, lines like "he brings flowers instead" appear to refer to a romantic relationship, not a father daughter one.

I believe this reference should be deleted unless a good reference can be found. Cassander (talk) 01:00, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup
This "article" is really nothing but a sloppy list of every imaginable potential mention of incest in any work of fiction. Needs cleanup. I'm tagging it. -R. fiend (talk) 16:01, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

The shadow of the wind
The Shadow of the Wind could be added

Julián Carax and Penélope Aldaya, the father of both is Mr. Aldaya --Stefanbcn (talk) 20:27, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

GTA IV
In "Grand Theft Auto IV", there is a minor character, Michael Keane (a.k.a. Saint-Michael), whose birth is often said to be result from a incestuous relationship between two fraternal brothers. Although he does not confirm it, he does not deny it either. Huh? WookMuff (talk) 02:48, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Not "incest"
From the list on the page: In the 1997 film Romy and Michelle's High School Reunion, it is implied that the character Michelle lost her virginity to a cousin.

Since when (since maybe 1600) is sex with a cousin considered incest? I don't know of any U.S. state, for instance, that regards even 1st cousins as being within a prohibited degree of consanguinity. --Michael K. Smith (talk) 20:19, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

– — … ‘ “ ’ ” ° ″ ′ ≈ ≠ ≤ ≥ ± − × ÷ ← → · §

Drilling down on this External Link:

On this Web page:

On this Web site

Yields these quotes:

“In these novels Thompson relates the story of an incestuous relationship with his mother. . .”

“Nominated for a National Book Award and selected by the Book of the Month Club, he was difficult, recognized, and popular.”

CdrZr (talk) 23:50, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Non-fiction
Unchained Memories By Lenore Terr

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenore_Terr In Ch 5, The Two Miss Americas of 1958 and Her Sister, in "Unchained Memories," Lenore Terr, M.D., discusses some of the experiences of Ms. Marilyn Van Derbur and her older sister.

http://books.google.com/books?id=8fMQjhWhdHMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22Unchained+Memories%22&lr=&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=&as_brr=0&as_pt=ALLTYPES

---

Google Search: "Miss America by Day"

1. Miss America By Day, Marilyn Van Derbur's journey of healing from ...

"In this award winning book, former Miss America, Marilyn Van Derbur, describes, in detail, her healing process after 13 years of incest. "I wrote the book, ..."     www.missamericabyday.com/

Fiction
Google Search: Peyton Place incest wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peyton_Place_(novel)

1. Peyton Place (novel) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia "Peyton Place" has become an expression to describe a place whose ... (In the novel, Selena kills her stepfather, since incest was considered too taboo for ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peyton_Place_(novel) - 26k - Cached - Similar pages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peyton_Place_(novel)

"The novel describes how they come to terms with their identity as women and sexual beings in a small New England town. Hypocrisy, social inequities, and class privilege are recurring themes in a tale that includes incest, abortion, adultery, lust and murder."

CdrZr (talk) 00:54, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Code Geass
Should Lelouch and Nunnally's "aishteru"s be added? 98.14.15.12 (talk) 16:49, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Cousins considered incest? I propose a removal of all those references.
I don't know if it is considered incest in the USA...but am I correct in assuming Wikipedia's laws are not all American? Because cousin marriage is prevalent in Southern Asia. Please discuss further... - bigforrap (talk) 09:07, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

"popular" culture ?
How comes that the likes of Nabokov are mentioned in a page about "popular" culture ?

Most of this page is about culture, not popular culture in the strict acceptance of the term. I think it should be renamed "Incest in culture". Even if there are countless mangas and allsorts mentioned in it, who cares ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.108.167.121 (talk) 10:10, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Incest as a metaphor
Do we have any references for incest as a metaphor at all?--Lord Don-Jam (talk) 16:44, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

This "article" is pathetically awful
I almost think the only way to fix this is deletion. This is nothing but a rambling, disorganized list of every example of incest in every work of fiction anyone could think of. It's one big useless trivia section. Staggeringly terrible. -R. fiend (talk) 11:50, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It is bad and needs fixing but I do not think deletion is the way to go, but saying that I do not know how to fix it. The article is needed as incest is a somewhat popular topic in fiction of almost every kind and not just the erotic.--Lord Don-Jam (talk) 13:04, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
 * A sort of agree. Repair is preferable to destruction, but I also don't really know how or even if this can be fixed. Typically for this sort of article we have a solid section about the topic as a whole, and then perhaps mention of a handful of the most noteworthy examples. This has almost none of the former and every possible example of the latter. Can we write a decent, sourced summary of the topic? If not then all we have is a painfully long and unreadable list, and if that's all we can get then deletion probably is the way to go. In any case, trimming really needs to be done, but the article has grown to such a monstrosity that it has become a Herculean task. -R. fiend (talk) 13:39, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Borgias
Well few Suggestions - Incestous relationships are described in Various works describing Borgia family - Mario Puzo's Novel and Jordowsky/Manara comic book, but perhaps other, that I'm not aware of 178.36.31.164 (talk) 01:25, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

@ Queens of the stonenage/Little Sister
dear all, I found a post on this site: http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Little-Sister-lyrics-Queens-Of-the-Stone-Age/8EFEE5A8D1C346ED48256F86002C8999 stating, that "Little sister" is rather a tribube to Elvis Presley's "Little Sister" than dealing with an incestual relationship, thus NOT being an example for "incest in popular culture" see also: http://www.queensofthestoneage.de/texte/detail/article/63400/queens-of-the-stone-age-interview/

hoping for replies medic-ben — Preceding unsigned comment added by Medic-ben (talk • contribs) 21:09, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

No mention of Iain Banks?
Several of his novels have involved incest, e.g. Walking on Glass and The Steep Approach to Garbadale. 86.182.10.94 (talk) 10:18, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Proposed Addition of a New Section
Should we add a section about incest-discussions on human-sexuality discussion forums? How are human-sexuality discussion forums less noteworthy than Literature, Comic books, Japanese manga and anime, Film, Television, Popular music, and Video games? Literature, Comic books, Japanese manga and anime, Film, Television, Popular music, and Video games are not "reliable sources" in the Wikipedia-guidelines sense, and so there's no apparent justification for the deletion made here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.90.43.187 (talk) 19:26, 29 August 2012 (UTC) Adding my sig: 144.90.43.187 (talk) 19:31, 29 August 2012 (UTC) The opposition is promoting a double-standard. The wikipedia article cites no "third-party reliable source stating that [incest] is a notable and popular subject" in literature, and so there is no justification for inclusion of the "Literature" section, if the opposition's inclusion-standard is enforced. Similarly, there is no justification for inclusion of the "comic books", "Japanese manga and anime", "film", "television", "popular music", and "video games" sections, if the opposition's inclusion-standard is enforced.150.135.72.61 (talk) 20:50, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Unless reliable sources can be found which indicate that discussion in discussion forums is an notable activity within this subject matter, no references to such forums should be made. Ebikeguy (talk) 19:53, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose - per WP:RS. Discussion forums are, by definition, user-generated content; and thus fails Wikipedia's guideline on being a reliable source. What is needed is a third-party reliable source stating it is a notable and popular subject on forums. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 20:04, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - Here at Wikipedia, two wrongs do not make a right. If you see violations of Wikipedia's rules in article language, you are encouraged to help fix things.  However, pointing out examples of other problems never justifies the addition of more problematic language.  Ebikeguy (talk) 20:53, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * There is no double standard. The sections for literature, comic books, Japanese manga and anime, etc all link to articles about notable publications (ie: the individual books which themselves meet Wikipedia's guideline on notability) - users cannot go into them and change the official versions of them. Forums on the otherhand are user-generated posts - anyone can go into one, post anything they want, and claim that proves one thing or another.  That's why third-party reliable sources are needed for claims about forums. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 21:30, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry but I don't understand your argument. The section about comic books, for example, cites no "reliable sources". (Or do you consider comic books themselves to be "reliable sources"?) To which specific "articles about notable publications" does the comic-books section link?206.207.225.17 (talk) 22:21, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * If you click on the blue wikilinks in the Comic Books section, you will note that they take you to articles about comic books that deal with this subject matter. Because the wikilinked comic books in this section are considered notable enough to have their own articles, with appropriate references on their pages, there is no need to re-post the associated references in this article.  Ebikeguy (talk) 22:29, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The Topix (website) discussion forum is considered notable enough to have it's own article, so why should it be excluded from this "Incest in popular culture" article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.207.225.17 (talk) 23:04, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * If you can find reliable source references specifically mentioning the Topix discussion forum's discussions on incest in popular culture, you are encouraged to post those references here, along with associated language. Ebikeguy (talk) 23:10, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * How do you account for the Incest in popular culture article's reference to the Ayako (manga) article? Specifically, what "reliable source references specifically mention" Ayako (manga)'s "discussions on incest in popular culture"?
 * To restate what I mentioned before: the forums are user-generated content. If anyone posts about a subject on a forum, they can claim the subject is discussed on the forum - that's user-generated content, and fails as a reliable source.  That is why a third-party reliable source is required for any user-generated content. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 23:28, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * But it's irrelevant here whether discussion forums are a reliable source, just as it's irrelevant whether comic books are a reliable source. 150.135.161.113 (talk) 19:44, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
 * It's time to release the cudgel and retreat from the decaying equine. You cannot win this one, for reasons listed above.  Ebikeguy (talk) 19:52, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Whatever, but it's still irrelevant here whether discussion forums are a reliable source, just as it's irrelevant whether comic books are a reliable source. 150.135.161.113 (talk) 19:57, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Per WP:RS, it's completely relevant. Forums are expressly identified in Wikipedia's content guideline as not being a reliable source. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 22:52, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
 * but no one here is suggesting that any forum be used as a reliable source. That's clear from what's actually been said here. You seem to have been confused about that from the start, but you could always move your eyes up this page to see what's actually been proposed. --150.135.161.183 (talk) 20:55, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
 * ahem ... look at the initial post on this thread. The revert that triggered this discussion was a direct result of a claim sourced only to a discussion forum. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 22:57, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
 * You misread. I'm looking at that revert. Prior to your revert, no claim had been sourced to that discussion forum. The discussion forum was cited as an example, not as a reliable source. (Note "e.g." in the text. "E.g." is an abbreviation of exempli gratia, which means "for the sake of example".) What I did was totally in line with the rest of this Incest in popular culture article. All the comic books cited in this article are cited as examples, not as reliable sources. All the video games cited in this article are cited as examples, not as reliable sources. Etc. --150.135.161.183 (talk) 23:18, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Justify it however you want, the FACT is that a forum was inappropriately used as a ref to support an addition, and it was reverted, resulting in this discussion. The flawed argument of claiming forums should be treated the same as other primary sources has already been explained - either you are incapable of grasping the explanation, or you have some sort of bias preventing your acceptance of the explanation, or you are simply a troll. For the sake of WP:AGF, I am for now still assuming it's one of the first two. Regardless, this discussion is going in circles, and is not serving to improve the article, so should simply be ended. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 00:43, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
 * You state: "the FACT is that a forum was inappropriately used as a ref to support an addition, and it was reverted". No, actually a forum was appropriately added as an example, and you inappropriately reverted it, right here. You're welcome to leave this discussion; no need to cry "troll" or otherwise explain your departure. You state: "The flawed argument of claiming forums should be treated the same as other primary sources has already been explained," but your statement is evidently false. -- 150.135.161.194 (talk) 02:03, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
 * If you feel I acted incorrectly and abused my editing privileges, feel free to report me. I welcome it.  May I suggest either Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents or Requests for comment/User conduct?  --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 04:49, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

In summary of the above discussion: It's proposed that the Topix (website) Human Sexuality Forum be added, not as a reliable source, but as an example. (Topix (website) is considered notable enough to have it's own Wikipedia article.) 150.135.161.45 (talk) 19:04, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Unless reliable sources can be found which indicate that discussion about incest in popular culture within the Topix website is a notable activity related to this subject matter, no references to that forum should be made. Ebikeguy (talk) 19:33, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Is your position based on any principle that can be articulated? Is your position based anywhere in the Policies and guidelines? (Where, specifically?) 150.135.161.45 (talk) 23:30, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
 * It has been explained more than adequately. Your repeated beating of a dead horse is in part what resulted in my starting the discussion at WP:ANI. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 23:40, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Regarding the above, see WP:PA. In other words, his position is based in no principle that can articulated, and it's based nowhere in the Policies and guidelines. 150.135.161.45 (talk) 00:18, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
 * It has been explained. Repeatedly.  Your unwillingness or inability to grasp and/or accept the explanation is the fundamental problem here. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 00:25, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, it has not been explained. (It's essential here to give evidence in the form of diffs and/or other links. Without such evidence, his claim cannot be taken seriously.) 150.135.161.45 (talk) 00:47, 3 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Barek, you are the most patient sysop EVAR! But might I humbly suggest that it is time to stop feeding this troll?  Cheers, Ebikeguy (talk) 02:03, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Category:Incest in fiction
I tried to move articles within Category:Incest in fiction by myself to subcategories where applicable. However, I do not have the time to move them all.--NeoBatfreak (talk) 05:00, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Cleanup
This article is a rambling mess. It's mostly nothing but a haphazard list of every time some sort of incestuous activity has been mentioned anywhere. Can we trim, lik e90% of it? -R. fiend (talk) 03:36, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Fetish?
The lead describes incest as a fetish. I don't think it fits the definition of a fetish. Jim Michael (talk) 17:23, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Shameless and comics
On the Channel 4 Dramedy Shameless there's at least three cases of incest. One of the main plots of Series 5 Episode 7 is Ian Gallagher discovering his new boyfriend is really his half-brother, after having sex with him one last time the two reluctantly decide to stop seeing eachother. In Series 6 Carl Gallagher has sex with a girl while her brother watches, when he comes back to tell her he infected her with an STD he notices both of them scratching their crotch. Another Series 6 episode has Mickey Maguire (whose gay) masturbating to a sex tape starring his brother Shane, and Shane's girlfriend Kelly. Also, should comics be given their own section? It makes sense if Manga has one, I can think of at least three instances in mainstream comics where incest is occurs between characters. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.63.200.39 (talk) 21:21, 24 September 2009 (UTC)