Talk:Independent city/Archive 1

Carson City
Can someone confirm whether Carson City, Nevada is an independent city, or if it's legally also a county? The stub here claims it to be the county seat of Carson City County, but the city's website makes no such claim, instead claiming that Ormsby County, of which the city used to be the county seat, was merged into the city government in 1969. It seems to be an "independent municipality"... --Brion 22:32 Sep 12, 2002 (UTC)


 * There is no Carson City County. -- Zoe


 * Thanks! --Brion


 * I've moved Carson City from "Other States" to "Other entities similar to independent cities", as its government structure seems very similar to San Francisco's. I'm not entirely sure that there's a meaningful distinction between the independent cities and the "other entities", but I'm not going to mess with that. Argyriou 16:24, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


 * When Ormsby County was consolidated into Carson City, the county was simultaneously dissolved, leaving only Carson City. Thus, it is not part of a county, which makes it an independent city.


 * Upon research, the Census Bureau makes reference of "'first-order subdivisions' of each State and statistically equivalent entity, regardless of their local designations (county, parish, borough, etc.)." Continuing, "Thus, the following entities are considered to be equivalent to counties for legal and/or statistical purposes: The parishes of Louisiana; the boroughs and census areas of Alaska; the District of Columbia; the independent cities of Maryland, Missouri, Nevada, and Virginia (note that Alaska is not included, as Anchorage is considered a borough); that part of Yellowstone National Park in Montana (this part has been superseded); and various entities in the possessions and associated areas."


 * Thus, the 42 independent cities in the United States are Virginia's 39 (though this list still includes Clifton Forge and South Boston), Baltimore, St. Louis, and Carson City. If this is suitable proof for you, and meets no objections, I will be bold and make the proper modifications within the next few days. —IW4 12:44, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Go for it. Argyriou 23:50, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Done...though I forgot about it until now. —IW4 10:10, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Just thought I'd double-check Austen, Texas; Google hits are few (81) and those I looked at seem to be misspellings for Austin, Texas, which appears to be the county seat of Travis County, Texas. --Brion


 * There is no Austen, Texas, and Laredo is NOT an independent city. -- Zoe

Can someone tell me if I'm correct in assessing New York as an independent city, as opposed to a consolidated city-county? I realize that the boroughs of New York are also counties, but they are administered differently and are considered legally different than the other New York counties. Doesn't this make New York an independent city?
 * Although New York City may fall under certain definitions of independent city or consolidated city-county(ies), such terms are not used here (I'm in Brooklyn) and are not recognized in New York State. Nelson Ricardo 08:07, Sep 5, 2004 (UTC)

I don't believe that the District of Columbia itself has any government whatsoever. It is only the US Congress and the constitutional powers which it delegates to Washington's city council. This is an important distinction, and I think it muddies the water to mention things like home rule in this context. It's only being used as an analogy that Wikipedia readers can identify with, so it needs to be kept very relevant and to-the-point.

The original text was: ''The city of Washington for example is not in any state, nor does the District of Columbia have any government of its own. The only governments are the city and federal, without any intervening state, territory, or district bureaucracy. …''

The changed text is: ''The city of Washington, for example is not in any state; it comprises the entirety of the District of Columbia, which has a home rule government that can be overridden by the United States Congress. …''

The proposed text is: ''The city of Washington, for example, is not in any state. It comprises the entirety of the District of Columbia, which in itself has no government &mdash; it is instead governed solely by the U.S. Congress and the Washington city council. The only governments are the city and federal, without any intervening state, territory, or district bureaucracy. …''

--radiojon 05:01, 2003 Sep 4 (UTC)


 * The above "proposed text" is clearer and more accurate than the previous versions. I second radiojon's proposal to update it.
 * aileron 01:18, 2004 Oct 20 (UTC)

Other "independent" cities
Although not called "independent cities", there are other names for the same idea elsewhere in the world. Should those be included in this article, or at least linked to? I have included, for instance, single-tier municipalities from Ontario. --timc | Talk 20:19, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Major refactoring, 12/3/04
This article has accrued a lot of cruft and its order was somewhat confusing. I have rearranged things and edited a bit while I think keeping almost all the information that was here to begin with. The one thing I cut was the extensive list of consolidated city-county governments; since we are trying to make the point that these are not independent cities, why confuse matters by naming so many of them? There's a comprehensive list over the on the consolidated city-county page.

There are a few other things here I would like to see addressed but I don't know the answers; I'd like to see them addressed:


 * Is this list of municipalities -- Anchorage, St. Louis, Baltimore, Carson City, plus Virginia's 39 -- definitive? At some points we speak as if it is, but we also use hedge words like "include" and "approximately".
 * Should Anchorage be in this list, considering that Alaska's county set-up is weird anyway? Does the Municipality of Anchorage differ from other one-city boroughs in Alaska in ways other than name?
 * OK, I get that consolidated city-county governments and independent cities have different historical origins (the former from the combining of municipal and county government and the latter from the secession of a city from a county). However, is there in practice a difference between an independent city, and a consolidated city-county that contains no other municipalities?  I currently live in Baltimore, and I used to live in San Francisco, and as near as I can tell there's not much difference in these two cities' status.  Can someone explain what the difference might be, other than in nomenclature and history?

Anyway, gotta go do some real work now ... hope you have found my changes and comments useful. --Jfruh 15:16, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Regarding "consolidated city-county governments and independent cities have different historical origins (the former from the combining of municipal and county government and the latter from the secession of a city from a county)." In Virginia, many of what we call independent cities did not secede from a county. Unfortunately (at least for ease of definition), the various circumstances are more complicated than that. To include Virginia, it would be correct to instead say:

Proposed text:

Independent cities have a variety of historical origins. Some were created from the combining of municipal and county government. Others resulted from the secession of a city from a county. And there are other variations.

In Virginia, there were no independent cities until 1871 when a revised state constitution took effect. Since then additional independent cities have been created, and two former independent cities rejoined their former counties by changing themselves to become incorporated towns which are always located within a county. A good resource for more detail on the various situation in Virginia is the Virginia Commission on Local Government. Vaoverland 20:20, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Massachusetts is a different situation
I hate to zap someone else's work, but the situation in Massachusetts doesn't apply here. An independent city is a city that is not part of a county. Cities in Mass. are considered to be part of counties -- Boston is part of Suffolk County, for instance. New England counties have almost no governmental or administrative purposes left, but for the census, the cities are considered part of counties and not separate entities. Compare for instance the Wiki page on Suffolk_County%2C_Massachusetts (which discusses the lack of political power counties have in Mass., but still includes Boston as part of the county) and Baltimore County, Maryland, from which the independent City of Baltimore is explicitly excluded.

--Jfruh 02:53, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Massachusetts is not a different situation
From the Commonwealth of Massachusetts web site:

"Though the counties still remain, some county governments in the Commonwealth have been 'abolished', their offices being put under the direction of certain state offices. Example: the Registry of Deeds offices in abolished counties are now under the direction of the Secretary of the Commonwealth's Office; Sheriffs and jails are under the Secretary of Public Safety."

"Generally speaking, New England states do not have as active a county government system as compared to the rest of the nation. In Massachusetts for example, state roads (usually numbered routes) are cared for by the state highway department (MassHighway), while individual communities care for the non-state roads within their borders. This can cause some confusion for folks who move here from other parts of the nation as the opposite appears true in their former home state(s)."

In many Massachusetts counties, there is no government. The towns and cities interact directly with the government of the Commonwealth. Local matters are left to the local governments; regional matters are left either to the state government *or* regional agreements between localities, *not* counties. Most counties are, for the most part, ceremonial districts pre-dating the War of Independence, before which they were used as adminsitrative districts.

--AaronS 23:51, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * You say: "Most counties are, for the most part, ceremonial districts pre-dating the War of Independence, before which they were used as adminsitrative districts." All that is true, and I've added text to that effect in the article.  But that point is that cities and towns in Mass. are still part of those ceremonial districts.   An independent city is not part of a county; counties in Massachusetts may not *do* anything, but that doesn't mean that cities in Massachusetts are outside of, or separate from, counties.  Suffolk County may have an essentially notional and ceremonial existance today; but that doesn't mean that Boston is separate from Suffolk County in the way that Baltimore is separate from Baltimore County.  The essential definer is how the Census department treats the jurisdictions; Baltimore, St. Louis, Carson City, and the independent cities in Virginia are considered county-level equivalents by the Census, while the cities and towns of Massachusetts are not. --Jfruh 01:15, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

City of St. Louis is a county
As the article states, the city of St. Louis is separate from St. Louis County, Missouri. However, it is also a county. Listings of the counties in Missouri include -- in addition to "St. Louis" (for St. Louis County) -- "City of St. Louis". Also the city of St. Louis includes various offices which are normally county offices -- e.g. Sheriff, Recorder of Deeds, etc.

Possibly the city of St. Louis should not be included in this topic.

--W.Haggett 07:12, 15 May 2005 (UTC)


 * The Census Bureau considers independent cities as equivalents of counties. The City of St. Louis has been independent from St. Louis County since 1876, as is shown here. If you scroll down the county list as available here, "St. Louis city" is listed at the bottom of the list, alphabetically separate from the counties, just as Virginia and Maryland's are.  —IW4 21:54, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


 * With the exception of truly odd situations like New York City, most "independent cities" in the United States are effectively counties in their own right, combining the functions of a city and the functions of a county into one body. Certainly, San Francisco in California and Carson City in Nevada fit that same model. Some states allow cities which are above a certain population specific additional powers - Michigan allows Detroit special powers (which it was in danger of losing, as its population declined below the threshold size), for example. But with one exception, the legal powers of cities, whether independent of counties, combined with counties, or otherwise, are set by state laws. The exception, the only city which is independent of any state government, is Washington.


 * As I see it, an independent city is, quite simply, one that does not share land with a county at all, no matter what functions as an entity it does or does not hold. It does not mean that it is independent of its state; rather, it may be seen in the heirarchy of the state as equivalent to a county in its standing as an administrative district—neither superior or subordinate to any county. Detroit, no matter what special powers the State of Michigan allows it, is still part of Wayne County.  San Francisco is a consolidated city-county; the boundaries of the city are the same as the boundaries of the county, and the mayor of the city is also the county executive, but that's just it...one person performing the functions of two "entities."  Thus, San Francisco City (the incorporated municipality) is still inside San Francisco County (the administrative district of the State of California), and the official name is still the City and County of San Francisco.  The City of St. Louis is a separate entity entirely from St. Louis County; it shares no land with its namesake; and the State of Missouri considers the city its own administrative district, and does not mark it subordinate to, or under the jurisdiction of, any county.  Thus, as I see it, it is independent. —IW4 11:58, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Advantages/Disadvantages of Independent Cities in Virgina
What are the advantages? I see soverenty for a city splitting from a county, but why would a county want to "covert" to a city, like Chesapeake? Why does Arlington remain a county? Are they unable to get a city charter for some reason, or is there some advantage to remaining a county? I think in Virginia cities can impose higher sales taxes or something, I remember hearing something like that before, but I haven't been able to find good information about this. I think it would be good to include in the article.--RA64 12:06, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Census for New England City and Town Area
The article makes the following assertion: "The U.S. Census Bureau still uses counties, and not cities or towns, as its base unit of statistical measurement in New England."

The Census Bureau records information for Minor civil divisions in New England. It also records Information for New England City and Town Areas instead of Core Based Statistical Areas. I would like to see a citation to support this assertion.

Disney World/Lake Buena Vista
I have heard that Disney World, near Orlando, FL, is something like an independent city. Lake Buena Vista is a city within the Reedy Creek Improvement District. Although physically located within Orange County, the Improvement District essentially gives Disney complete control over every aspect of the city, which would normally fall under county jurisdiction. Does anyone have some facts about this? Oanjao (talk) 00:27, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Russia
Why Saint Petersburg is mentioned, and Moscow is not? — Hellerick (talk) 08:11, 23 February 2009 (UTC)