Talk:Indiana big school football champions

Recent changes
I noticed that the additional information I added to the article had been changed a second time. I have undone that to again include mythical state champions back to 1895.

The person who undid the additions which I posted claimed that my changes "exist...solely to support Reitz' claim to nine championships." This is simply not true...my changes exist to provide further information on mythical state champions back to 1895. My interest in researching the past mythical state champions of Indiana prep football did begin in a quest to learn more about Reitz' claims (in fact, two claims have been debunked), but I continued to gather historical information to cover the entire history of Indiana prep football.

Additionally, I find it a little ironic that my website can be used as a source for some information, but when it is inconvenient, information on my site is ignored.

For the person's satisfaction, here are the methods in which Reitz can claim nine big school state championships:

1933 - Evansville newspaper reported that at Reitz football banquet on Dec. 20, 1933, "Circuit Judge Spencer" and the article itself referred to Reitz as the state champions. Additionally, the 1934 Panther Gridiron Guide referred to the '33 team as "Co-State Champions." 1940 - The Dec. 12, 1940 edition of the Evansville Courier referred to Reitz as "State Title Claimants". Additionally, the Dec. 18, 1940 edition of the Reitz Mirror said "Two of Indiana's finest football elevens, Francis Joseph Reitz High School of Evansville and North Side high school of Fort Wayne have been announced as the leaders of the state for 1940 by the Indianapolis News." 1948 - Voted #1 by Associated Press & United Press and rated #1 by E.E. Litkenhous' mathematical rankings 1953 - Probably rated #1 by E.E. Litkenhous' mathematical rankings (second to last had Reitz at #1) 1956 - Rated #1 by E.E. Litkenhous' mathematical rankings 1957 - Voted #1 by International News Service & United Press and rated #1 by E.E. Litkenhous' mathematical rankings 1960 - Voted #1 by Associated Press & United Press International and rated #1 by E.E. Litkenhous' mathematical rankings 1961 - Voted #1 by Associated Press & United Press International and rated #1 by E.E. Litkenhous' mathematical rankings 1971 - Voted #1 by Associated Press & United Press International

Hope this helps. Thanks.

--Dengler (talk) 16:05, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Big props to Dengler for helping to bring Indiana football history to the masses. While it is a fact that any mythical claims prior to 1937 are quite disputable, post-1937 claims outside of the two major polls are problematic. The above Reitz claims in '33 and '40 are based solely on self-referencial reporting from an Evansville newspaper, hardly an unbiased source -- or claim. The '53 and '56 claims using the Litkenhous rankings are equally dubious, given their Louisville Courier-Journal base, again highly biased toward southern Indiana and Evansville football. Many similar claims, post-1937, have been made by many teams, yet no others are listed in the revert. Holding to the two nationally-distinguished major polls seems the only fair method of listing a champion, with the acknowledgement that without a tournament, the championships are truly mythical. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.1.104.251 (talk) 15:51, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the response, but I don't understand why claims outside of the two major polls are problematic. The college football section of wikipedia and several other sites cite polls and mathematical ratings outside of the big two, so I believe high school football can do so, as well.

Just because the Litkenhous ratings originated from the Louisville newspaper (which covered both Kentucky and Indiana high school football), the fact that the ratings were printed by newspapers across Indiana for over 30 years shows their legitimacy. Of the 18 known Litkenhous ratings state champs from 1946 to 1973, only 6 ranked Southern Indiana teams finished at #1. They ranked Northern Indiana teams #1 a total of 9 times and Central Indiana teams #1 a total of 3 times. By the responder's rational, the Litkenhous ratings would be biased toward Northern Indiana football. However, geographical location had nothing to do with their ratings formula.

Of course, all of these championships are mythical. As it states on my site, if a team had a legit claim to the mythical state title before the establishment of the AP and UPI ratings, I see no reason not to recognize them as state champs, especially since their was no tournament to determine this on the field. If there are state championship claims for teams post-1937, please let me know, as I do not have that information and need it to add to my site and further complete my research. Thanks.--Dengler (talk) 07:31, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

How about we agree to leave this entry alone and refer people to your website for your personal research. Every NIC champion into the 1960s claims the state championship. Will we add these numerous claims to the mythical list, also? Litkenhous is included in this entry only to support the Reitz claims, with no other Litkenhous champion listed. Until 1973, many claims were made annually. This entry rightly lists the two major poll champions only, with the admission that many other claims were made, some probably valid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.1.104.251 (talk) 04:11, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I believe we need to come to some consensus as I don't want to have to keep undoing each other's work back and forth. :) However, as you'll note on the Litkenhous ratings on my website (http://www.almanacsports.com/football/rankings2.php?poll=lit) and as I included in my revision, there were several Northern Indiana teams that won the state title under the Litkenhous. Additionally, while researching the old newspaper articles of the day, I believe it is a big stretch to say that "every NIC champion into the 1960s claims the state championship" just because they were the NIC champ. There were several that went unbeaten that fell short of the state title. However, when the NIC champ did claim the state title, it was because one of the polls named them the best.

Furthermore, if wikipedia is going to include the mathematical ratings in the college football section, I believe they should be included in the high school football section, as well. Thoughts?--Dengler (talk) 14:31, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Recent edit of page
I had updated the page in January, but saw it was reverted to its previous version last month due to uncited sources. I have spent over 10 years researching Indiana high school football and my website (AlmanacSports.com) is even cited as a source in the article.

I went ahead and reverted the article to the one I had edited back in January with information back to the 1800s. Thanks.

--Dengler (talk) 05:42, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Warren Central/Ben Davis vs. Newburgh Castle
Strictly speaking, Castle High School isn't in Newburgh either--it's in Leopold.

Leaving that aside, the situation is different.

Though Warren Central and Ben Davis high schools are not actually within the city of Indianapolis, they are at least associated with that city. Castle High School, however, not only is not associated with Evansville, but it also has absolutely nothing to do with Evansville--it serves Newburgh and its environs (even though it's in Leopold, it's really associated with Newburgh). Kurt Weber 15:04, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Location of Castle High School
Actually, no disrespect intended to the previous post, but Leopold is over an hour away from Castle High, which is indeed in Newburgh, Indiana. Further, Newburgh is only ten miles from Evansville and is nearly 100 times smaller, making it, if not a suburb, certainly a bedroom community of the Evansville metro area.

Finally, very few Indiana residents outside of a 75 mile radius of Newburgh would ever know where that small town lies, making Evansville the perfect descriptor for the location of Castle. (Evansville is put in parentheses in order to indicate that Castle's address is not actually in Evansville.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.99.50.71 (talk) 20:17, 18 January 2008 (UTC)