Talk:Indie game

Section
- Should we add a section about major indie games news sources or something like that? Some of the content of Independent video game development is also relevant here? What are your ideas? --IndieGamesGermany (talk) 21:19, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
 * IVGD really needs to be merged here. I wrote this from scratch using only reliable secondary source material; so the progress towards merge has been going slowly, since IVGD is basically original research.
 * What news sources do you mean? There are a lot and Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate list of things. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 21:25, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I was thinking about places like TIGSource (mentioned in the other article). But you're right that there are many and making a representative list is difficult. I asked because there seems to be a lot of confusion about which sites are considered "major." --IndieGamesGermany (talk) 22:52, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't know by what criteria sources like TIGSource were included in IVGD article; but definitely not based on secondary sources. So that is really original research. Unless someone independent makes a list of "major" Indie news sources, we should not speculate. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 09:42, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Community Section
Do you think we should integrate information in the community section into the bulk of the article? Currently, the information in the Community section is quite sparse and an independent section isn't necessary. Any thoughts on this? Picklebobdogflog (talk) 23:23, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Latter half of the 2000s
Does this not mean like 2500 and later? Like if your reading this in the holy year of the lord 3412, and you read "Latter half of the 2000s" one will probably assume somewhere between 2500 and 3000. I feel quite confident that one is meant to say between 2005 and 2010, or one is deliberately trying to be vague because one has no real data concerning the issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.159.134.165 (talk) 07:30, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Saying "the latter half of the 2000s" is implicitly the decade based on how that standard works in most English works; if we meant the century, we'd have used "21st century", or "2nd millennium" if that was the case. --M ASEM  (t) 14:53, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

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No indy games in the 80s?
I know the term wasn't used in the 80s, but I am sure that half of the video games made in the 80s were games developed by independent video game developers - mostly individuals or friends. Or are you saying a game Jeff Minter made and published himself in the 80s is not an indie game, but a game he made and published himself in the 2010s suddenly is? ZhuLien (talk) 22:08, 1 June 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.21.209.108 (talk)
 * Reliable sources, such as WP:VG/RS, do not retroactively apply the "indie" label to older games. Regardless if the term applies, we have no sources to support it. — HELL KNOWZ   ▎TALK 12:44, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Different time. The term "Indie" didn't really exist as a distinct category back then, but neither did "Triple-A" - as you say, most games back then were made by small teams with small budgets, including the ones backed by big publishers like Nintendo. It was only with the emergence of Triple-A and the general "institutionalization" of video gaming into the big budget, Hollywood-style system we have today that indie games became distinct from the rest of the industry. Retroactively calling self-published games from the 80's and 90's "indie" lacks context of what the industry was like at the time. 82.16.49.231 (talk) 19:03, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Financially Successful
The sentence at the end of the intro paragraph listing an random assortment of games that made a profit seems unnecessary. It is unconnected from the rest of the introduction and seems out of place, nor does it really inform the reader of anything, other than providing an incomplete list of a few games. This could either be cut or expanded to be more like "While most indie games used to be small projects distributed for free, in recent years indie game development has become more commercial as notable titles such as *example*, *example* and *example* have been financial hits." I think that a more in depth paragraph about successful games could also be added to the Industry section as well. Jelephant (talk) 17:48, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 16 July 2019

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: pages moved to titles proposed in nomination. Editors supporting the move have sufficiently made their case on common name grounds here. I have taken on board the remarks of those opposing on a precision and consistency basis, however even based on this, I don't see a consensus to endorse an undiscussed page move, hence my closing outcome. (I am aware that Indie game development had not been moved previously - I still see a consensus for the move as per my assessment of the discussion)

As a side note, I would recommend a further discussion on how to address other game areas that are considered indie (e.g. independent role-playing games) to ensure readers are able to reach those articles as well, whether by hatnotes or another method, but that's for another discussion. (closed by non-admin page mover) Steven   Crossin  Help resolve disputes! 17:38, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

– Starting an RM to establish consensus; this and list articles were moved recently to the "independent video game" form, while the dev article hasn't been discussed yet.
 * Independent video game → Indie game
 * List of independent video game developers → List of indie game developers
 * Independent video game development → Indie game development

"Indie game" is the WP:COMMONNAME. This is what reliable sources use and what every source in the main article uses, which includes sources outside video game industry. "Independent video game" is the full term used before "indie game" became the standard, but--while still in active use--it is not the common name anymore in contrast to other industries that may primarily use the term "independent" or "indy". The term "indie" is used by media (VG-related and mainstream), industry sources, conferences and conventions, awards, other works, etc. (There are examples of "independent", such as Independent Games Festival, but these are mainly historical, such as IGF, which was founded in 1998.) A lot of links can be provided that use "indie game", and I'll refer to the main article's sourcing (which admittedly could use an update and inclusion of more mainstream sourcing). — HELL KNOWZ   ▎TALK 08:48, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Notified the VG project and the editor of the recent move. — HELL KNOWZ   ▎TALK 08:59, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Survey

 * I'm inclined to say that it's fine as is. It lines up with the naming conventions of relevant articles (such as independent film and independent music) and is well understood by more people than "indie video game," even if the number of people who wouldn't understand "indie video game" is a small number. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 10:03, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I'd argue that we should also move "independent music" to just "indie music" for the same reasons, if this passes. However, "independent film" is still more commonly used than "indie film", so that should be kept. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 23:23, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I suppose I can Support the move to indie game. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 18:00, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Support It's a shortening of the name that has evolved over time, similar to how we call automobiles "cars" or airplanes "planes". Since it's the WP:COMMONNAME by a long shot, it should be moved.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 11:12, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Support I honestly can't remember the last time I've heard them be called "independent" instead of "indie". TheAwesome  Hwyh  16:43, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Support per nom and others. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 23:22, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Support per nom and Zxcvbnm. Retro  ( talk  &#124;  contribs ) 14:32, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose' WP:AT Recognizability: "indie" is a shortening of Independent and is only recognisable by an expert in the subject. WP:AT Consistency: with Independent game development and Independent record label. -- PBS (talk) 17:34, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Weak Support I'm mostly on board with arguments like Zxcvbnm; the VG industry uses "indie" all the time. This is not a unique think to VGs, its definitely big in the music world though I do agree in film, its far less common. My own reservation is that there is inter-wiki consistency by keeping these all at "independent" but I don't think we need consistent between different forms of media, just consistency within the same forms of media. --M asem  (t) 17:46, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Support. There's the common name issue, but I think the other relevant part is that while "indie" comes from "independent", I'd argue indie is a more useful and accurate descriptor for game styles as well and has a life of its own beyond the generic "independent video game" term, the same was Art Deco comes from "decorative arts" but doesn't necessarily mean the same thing. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs  talk 17:54, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * @User:David Fuchs If this discussion was taking place about Art Deco in the late 1920s early 30s then the term might not have become the de facto name of the movement. It would take a survey of sources at that time to find out what if anything was the common name. With regards to this article are you suggesting that it should only covers a subset of "independent video games" that contain a certain "game styles", and presumably might also contain games that are not published by independent publishers. If so then that needs sources to justify it and a section in the article. Or does there need to be two articles one about "independent video games" and another about "indie games"?-- PBS (talk) 18:34, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:COMMONNAME. Colin M (talk) 21:38, 22 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Oppose - Fails WP:PRECISE. There are significant independent board and card game and independent tabletop role-playing game movements. As an example, Dogs in the Vineyard is an indie game (an indie role-playing game no less), but it is not an independent video game. The term "indie game" is used for multiple different types of games, and as long as the article is exclusively about video games, the title will need to reflect this. Grayfell (talk) 22:02, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
 * By that argument, the title should be indie video game. No one has brought up it being confusing with games of other forms of media before. It is by far the common name for video games. — HELL KNOWZ   ▎TALK 08:40, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Okay, so are you proposing indie video game? "indie game" is specific to video games only in some contexts. "Indie game" is used as an umbrella term, so as a Steam tag or similar it's going to be one usage, and at a board game store or event, it will mean something different. As an encylopedia, the article should should not assume readers belong to a specific group. "Indie game" is the common name for multiple types of indie games. COMMONNAME only applies if WP:CRITERIA is met, and the proposed name would be less precise. Grayfell (talk) 09:07, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
 * As for "nobody brought it up before", isn't that the point of having these discussions? If I had seen this earlier, I would've brought it up earlier. Grayfell (talk) 09:09, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
 * (Yes, it would have been nice to have a discussion before the article was moved.) I'm proposing "indie game" because that's what the vast majority of sources use. I'm not proposing adding "video", because it's still the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC by far and I was not aware other forms of games were anywhere close to warrant disambiguation. There's a source survey below and I guess the question is how many of those results are not for video games. But my primary argument is that it is "indie" and not "independent". I am unsure where your !vote stands on that, since you've used both forms. — HELL KNOWZ   ▎TALK 09:44, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
 * This is a tricky point, and I get where you're coming from, but I dispute that this is the PRIMARYTOPIC. This is a term which encompasses the primary topic... but that's absolutely not the same thing. The proposal is to move this to "indie game" and I am opposed to that, because I think it would misrepresent the scope of the current article. This article isn't about all indie games, it's about indie video games. That makes sense, and is more reasonable for an article, but it is what it is. It's a subtle issue, but I think it's an important one. Calling Cave Story an indie game is accurate, but Magic: The Gathering started out as an indie game too. Hell, so did Scrabble. The article's title should be both accurate and also precise.
 * Another issue is that the editors who are paying attention to the name of the article are very likely to be familiar with "indie game" in a specific context. The problem is that editors who are aware of the video game scene already know what this article is about, don't they? Wikipedia, as a project, should provide information about things outside of our prior experiences.
 * I have no strong opinion on renaming to "indie video game". It seem reasonable, but I would have to reexamine sources and think about it. Grayfell (talk) 22:02, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
 * "The proposal is to move this to "indie game"" This was already at "indie game". Technically, the proposal is to decide whether it should be elsewhere, specifically "independent video game". But due to the move being performed first, the discussion is now "backwards". — HELL KNOWZ   ▎TALK 09:02, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Discussion
User:Hellknowz, User:Zxcvbnm, User:Dissident93, and User:TheAwesomeHwyh using different words you have all claimed that indie game is the common name (WP:UCRN). Please provide evidence that this is true. I have not bothered to review the books returned to see how they match WP:SOURCES, I will leave that to others, but assuming that they are much of a muchness, then it does not seem that "Indie game" meets the requirements of "common name" in that it is not the "most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources)" (WP:UCRN), so other naming criteria need to be considered. -- PBS (talk) 18:22, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Using 21st century Google book searches:
 * Google Book Ngram Viewer with [indie game,independent game] ends in 2008 and there was no books for "indie game"
 * A 21st century Google book search on ["indie game" -wikipedia] returns "about 4,300 results" but actually only returned 17 items.
 * A 21st century Google book search on ["independent game" -wikipedia] returns "about 5,630 results" but actually returned 16 items.
 * A 21st century Google Book search on ["independent video game" -wikipedia] returns "about 871 results" but actually returned 15 items.
 * Since when does a book search override a general Google search? Searching "indie game" nets me 15 million results overall, while "independent game" only nets me 900k. The vast majority of citations used in modern video game articles are web-based articles, not books or other printed media. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 18:42, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * And if you restrict that to Google News, I get 78k for "indie game" to 13k for "independent game" and 7.5k for "independent video game". --M asem (t) 18:47, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * @User:Dissident93 to answer you question "" Since 2008. Wikipedia does not rely on unreliable sources to determine article titles (there was a change in policy on this back in 2008). It only relies on reliable sources, this eliminates most (but not all) web based publications. Please read Verifiability policy, particularly the sections "Reliable sources" and " Sources that are usually not reliable". The reason why Google Books is used is because it is a useful proxy survey for what is used in reliable sources. -- PBS (talk) 19:28, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * That's an extreme reading of WP:V. Web based sources can absolutely be potential reliable sources, as long as there is evidence of the same journalistic aspects we look for in newspapers or books. WP:VG/S exists to document that for the VG project based on our past discussions and consensus. There is nothing in WP:V that eliminates the use of web based sources broadly. --M asem (t) 19:36, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Using a custom Google search tool that only lists sources already listed as reliable per WP:VG/RS, "indie game" has 5 million results, while "independent game" still only nets 900k. "Independent video game" (800k) does have more results than the "indie video game" (170k) however, but including "video game" in these terms seems to not be that common outside of talking specifically about the development/business/industry side of things, if that matters. And when including the book results (which are valid), they really don't matter at all when compared to the vast web-based results. ~ Dissident93 (talk</b>) 19:43, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Dissident93 asked the question and I provided an answer. There is nothing in my answer that was "an extreme reading of WP:V" as I said "" and with Dissident93's second search (s)he has eliminated 10 million hits "15 million" down to "5 million results" which would seem to me to be "most, (but not all)".
 * user:Dissident93, your link to your second search does not return any links for me. So can you please either provide a link to you search results, or provide a count to how many pages are actually returned and the first 10 returns for the searches "indie game" and 10 for "independent game" (it is quite possible that games other than video games will be classified as "independent game", eg a none league football game), so that we can assess the quality of the sources returned by your search. -- PBS (talk) 20:29, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * The article has almost 40 reliable citations that use "indie game" since its creation. Reliable video game source search returns 5.8 M hits for "indie (video) game" and 1.8 M hits for "independent (video) game". Google news has 90 K for the former and 20 K for the latter. Even assuming all those are valid hits, the former outweighs the latter. All recent industry sources use "indie", which can be seen by browsing any of the larger video game news publishers. And mainstream media now freely use "indie". Searching for sourcing for the article, the better features and article predominantly use "indie". I think this is more than sufficient to determine the more common use without spending hours of time to compile lists of examples (besides that the article itself already has a list of reliable citations). — HELL KNOWZ   ▎TALK 21:56, 17 July 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Cuphead in the lead?
Should cuphead be included in the list of critically acclaimed indie games that spurred on the "genre" in the lead. The others I understand for their significance in the genre (even Celeste, since it was nominated for many game of the year awards included at the game awards), but Cuphead feels out of place. Not that it wasn't critically acclaimed, but in terms of its significance. PixelMage (talk) 03:10, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
 * It sold 5 million in two years and is receiving an animated series soon. Outside of the other indie games it's listed beside, could you name a few other ones with the same level of success? If anything, Celeste is the game I'm most willing to remove. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 20:26, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
 * While that's a good point in terms of sales, Celeste was more prominent, as I stated, for the fact that it was nominated for many prominent game of the year awards, including high-profile ones like for the game awards. While Cuphead was nominated for a fair amount, it wasn't in the same way that Celeste was. For example, at the golden-joysticks and game awards it was nominated for best xbox game/indie game of the year (respectively), but in both of those shows celeste was nominated for the game of the year awards overall . In that was Celeste was a big breakthrough. Cuphead, while very successful, wasn't a breakthrough in the same way. Still, I see and respect your point about Cuphead.PixelMage (talk) 15:17, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
 * A game's impact on other media (I.E., spawning an animated show that would otherwise not have existed if not for the game's impact) is more notable than a few random award nominations, especially if it doesn't even win them. Celeste should probably be kept there for now, but it's definitely the weakest example listed. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 22:30, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree with this that Cuphead definitely makes sense because of its impact, while Celeste, an important critical darling, hasn't had anywhere comparable. I can think of other examples like Papers, Please that may have had more of an impact than Celeste, but even there, would not recommend its inclusion just yet. The lede examples should be clearly obvious milestone indie titles. --M asem (t) 22:42, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Do you support its removal then? ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 23:17, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, examples should be clear obviousness for the lede, of which Celeste fails. --M asem (t) 23:28, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, your consensus seems valid and correct. I clearly misinterpreted the impact of celeste vs the impact of cuphead. PixelMage (talk) 20:24, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I suggest merging Independent video game development into Indie game, as about 75% of the info on the former is duplicated in essence (not in content, there is content mergers to be done) on the Indie game page. And the indie game article is short enough to accommodate that. --M asem (t) 22:50, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think they should be merged.-Splinemath (talk) 02:15, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I would ask why you think that - what is unique in terms of general content on the "development" page from the current "indie game" page. --M asem (t) 02:27, 29 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Support cut down on the cruft (maybe half of it could go, but I only skimmed through it) and it should merge without issue. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 10:23, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I always felt that separate article can be spun out from here, because there are enough sources and enough content can be written for a split. But obviously the current version of the dev article is not great and not focused solely on development. It's repeating the main article and has a lot of unsourced and questionable content. I would support merging but without prejudice for a future split if and once the content grows in size. — HELL KNOWZ   ▎TALK 14:01, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I think that's the case for every merger. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 18:52, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Games in the Lead
One problem with the second paragraph in the lead is that it provides a very abbreviated history outside the history section. Not only that but the content excludes indie games during the early 2000s with massive popularity, including Cave Story, Corpse Party, Yume Nikki, and the Touhou Project.-Splinemath (talk) 13:42, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Furthermore there are no mentions of the Humble Indie Bundle or Itch.io, two massively important parts of indie gaming.-Splinemath (talk) 13:44, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
 * You have to provide sources first for this. And not add it to lead, but in the main prose. Then if it's a significant part of content, lead can summarize it. The current examples were only 3 originally before more and more were being added because "they are also important". — HELL KNOWZ   ▎TALK 13:56, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Your examples are cult games, not million selling milestone titles. However, I don't see why Humble Indie Bundle or Itch.io couldn't be added to the article somewhere. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 18:51, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
 * There is no article for cult games beyond List of cult video games and a redirect to Cult following. Should there be? -Splinemath (talk) 14:25, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
 * The concept of cult video games is not much different from other cult works in other media, so there's really no need for a special article on it beyond the above two. --M asem (t) 15:35, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

Indie games across the globes
Are indie games a primarily English language phenomenon? What about Dōjin soft? What distinguishes English-language indie games and Indie game development in English-speaking countries from Japanese-language games and games from other parts of the world that exist outside of the Anglosphere?-Splinemath (talk) 14:38, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Dojin should be mentioned, and I got some sources for that, but it should be noted that there is a sufficient distinction here between the terms dojin and indie. --M asem (t) 16:00, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

Cyberpunk 2077
Cyberpunk 2077 ist the most succesful indie game ever. Why is this fact not mentioned here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.168.21.240 (talk) 17:56, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I do not think anyone considered CP2077 "indie". --M asem (t) 18:06, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Why not? CDPR is the developer and the publisher so per definition it is an indie game.


 * https://twitter.com/Charalanahzard/status/1320551223309651968?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1320551223309651968%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fpublish.twitter.com%2F%3Fquery%3Dhttps3A2F2Ftwitter.com2FCharalanahzard2Fstatus2F1320551223309651968widget%3DTweet — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.168.21.240 (talk) 21:52, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Being both the dev + pub does not qualify as an indie game - this would make many of Ubisoft's titles indie games by that measure, for example. --M asem (t) 04:55, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Actually it does. To be precise, beeing independent is the only thing that qualifies an indie game. Indie is short for independence. CDPR is independend from a publisher because they publish their games themselves.
 * I don't know much about Ubisoft. Can you name games that are developed by Ubisoft? Those games from Ubisoft I know, are developed by Ubisoft subsidiaries (their names are Ubisoft followed by the name of a city e.g. Ubisoft Montreal) and published by Ubisoft. In that case the publisher is not the developer and so it does not qualify as indie game
 * Again, that's not how indie games are defined. Read the article about this. CDP is far too large to be called indie at this point. --M asem (t) 13:53, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Are you serious? No offence but YOU should read the article, or at least the first sentence: "An [..] indie game is a video game typically created [..] without the financial and technical support of a large game publisher". Or read the definition: "The term "indie game" itself is based on similar terms like independent film and independent music, where the concept is often related to self-publishing and independence from major studios or distributors." Or read what experts say: "One simple definition, described by Laura Parker for GameSpot, says "independent video game development is the business of making games without the support of publishers".
 * Btw. large is the opposite of small, not of independent. The opposite of independent is dependent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.145.184.205 (talk) 14:47, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
 * CDP is a large game publishers themselves, that's the issue. --M asem (t) 14:50, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
 * At the end of the day, we say what reliable sources do. If a large enough portion of reliable sources call the game "indie", then so will we. As it is, essentially no one calls it indie. "No publisher" is just a simple definition. There is literally na entire section devoted to the definition and ambiguity. — HELL KNOWZ   ▎TALK 15:34, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but that's a stupid thing to say. We don't need any source here. The definition is fulfilled so there is no room for interpretation. In contrary: your theory that a game studio that is independent from a publisher cannot make independent games if it is too lare to large needs a reliable source. Also you need to explain whom they depend on - if they don't depend on someone else they are independent. That's trivial and needs no source. You could say that the depend on themselves but this is true for all independent things and so prooves my point, not yours. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.145.184.205 (talk) 15:47, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
 * See WP:V. — HELL KNOWZ   ▎TALK 15:51, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Exactly! This is what I mean: your strange theory that an independend developer cannot make indie games if it's large needs a reliable source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.145.184.205 (talk) 18:09, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
 * It's not my theory, it's a founding principle of Wikipedia. WP:BURDEN of proof is on you. — HELL KNOWZ   ▎TALK 18:16, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
 * No, you don't understand what I mean. What I say is a fact. My standpoint is that an indie game is defined by the absence of a publisher. This is also in the article and prooven by multiple reliable sources. This is why I don't need any more reliable sources. YOU need a reliable source for your theory/standpoint that a developer that is independend from a publisher an so fulfils the definition of indie game does not count as an indie game developer if it is large. The burden of proove lies with you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.145.184.205 (talk) 18:29, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
 * As sourced in this article, "an indie game is defined by the absence of a publisher" is not the definition of an indie game, it is very vauge. Most often, an indie will lack a publisher but this is not a requirement. You need a source to validate that CP2077 is considered an indie game, we don't need to proof the opposite. --M asem (t) 18:34, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Hollow Knight should be added to the lede
First it sold extremely well according to the team cherry blogpost (https://www.teamcherry.com.au/blog/hollow-knight-silksong-revealed#:~:text=a%20game%20bought%20and%20played%20by%20over%202.8%20million%20people!) Hollow Knight sold 2.8 million in February 2019 and Shovel Knight which is in the lede sold 2.65 million lesser than Hollow Knight also according to steam Undertale another game in the lede has sold between 2.5 million to 5 million copies so no real number but the average is like wat 3 million to 3.7 million what I am basically saying Hollow Knight has sold similar amount of copies to two game in the lede so, I dont know why it shouldn't be there Mr Kris 420 (talk) 18:09, 24 May 2021 (UTC)


 * As has been explained before to you, its not just about sales. There are indie games that have well-surpassed the ones we have listed, for example. What we want for the lede examples are those that are considered as synonymous with what an "indie game" is, and not necessary the best-selling or most-popular examples. This is not trying to say Hollow Knight isn't a successful game, but compared to those listed, its simply lacking the same sense of connection to "indie game" as the others. --M asem (t) 18:14, 24 May 2021 (UTC)


 * So, please tell me how does a game become synonymous with an indie game Mr Kris 420 (talk) 18:28, 24 May 2021 (UTC)


 * We look for sources that are broadly discussing indie games (ideally outside of gaming press) and see what examples they generally include if they do. --M asem (t) 18:31, 24 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Then Hollow Knight should be included if you go to say YouTube or Reddit and search for Top 10 indie games almost 99% of the time Hollow Knight is included if you go to IGN even Hollow Knight is included not just as one of the best indie games but one of the best PC games (source:https://in.ign.com/dota-2/134506/feature/the-25-best-pc-games-to-play-right-now) so clearly it meets your requirements. Also techrader also has Hollow Knight on their list of best indie games. Masem, you still haven't given me a concrete reason to why Hollow Knight shouldn't be in the lede it meets your both requirements it sold extremely well and is mainly considered one of best indie games of all time on many internet signs Mr Kris 420 (talk) 09:16, 25 May 2021 (UTC)


 * You're still missing the point about being synonymous with "indie games", which doesn't necessary mean "best" or "best-selling". --M asem (t) 12:03, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Then what does it synonymous with "indie games" you said it should be talked about heavily and on the internet Hollow Knight is talked about heavily on the internet way more than braid or Fez both in the lede but I do understand why they are in there as both them were one of the first indie gamesMr Kris 420 (talk) 13:26, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
 * This isn't an exhaustive list of games, it's just a few examples. We don't need to include any specific games. It's already 7 items and way more than necessary because no context is given for them. — HELL KNOWZ   ▎TALK 10:01, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Weak support: I would be in slight favor of replacing Fez and Braid with Celeste and Hollow Knight, although I agree that this change is of little importance and is not needed. I DO however support the creation of List of indie games to complement List of indie game developers. I will begin working on it in draft space.  15:12, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Draft:List of indie games  15:29, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Adding Cave Story and Embodiment of Scarlet Devil/the Touhou Project series to the introductory header as notable examples of Eastern indie games
Cave Story and the Touhou Project series were both huge successes developed by one man, making them THE definition of an independent game. They are talked about later in the "Other regions" section, so why not list them up front? Maybe with the existing games there it could say "Examples of successful Western indie games..." followed by "examples of successful Eastern indie games...". Cave Story is notable for being heavily influential in fuelling the independent scene of the late 2000s and 2010s. (https://www.destructoid.com/cave-story-creator-on-wanting-to-quit-working-with-publishers/ https://www.denofgeek.com/games/why-cave-story-is-a-timeless-indie-classic/ https://twitter.com/tobyfox/status/930951982575226880?lang=en https://retronauts.com/article/1411/15-years-ago-cave-story-inspired-a-generation https://www.indiegamewebsite.com/2019/12/28/the-100-best-indie-pc-games/5/ "one of the most well-known indie PC games of all time") A massive internet subculture has formed around the Touhou Project series throughout the 2000s and 2010s, and is still booming. If there is one game from Touhou that is listed, then that would be Embodiment of Scarlet Devil, since it has not only sold the most copies in the series (Szczepaniak, John. The Untold History of Japanese Video Game Developers. p. 373.) is responsible for the series' boom and has been listed as most popular in the series every year since 2016 (https://toho-vote.info/result16/result_list_title.php), and has also been awarded best of year accolades (https://jp.ign.com/rekidai-goty/26424/feature/goty2002) - translated "the level design, music, and presentation's charm make the game a masterpiece that would go on to become one of the most popular Japanese games of all time.". It is easy to attribute it to a dōjin soft game but it's not like it is not also referred to an indie game in sources too (https://www.pcgamer.com/uk/the-story-behind-the-touhou-sensation/). Could they be included somehow? Kettleonwater (talk) 17:04, 18 July 2021 (UTC)


 * I can reasonably support Cave Story as there's a wealth of sources that list it among top games as well as being one of the first recognized inide titles, but Touhou not so much in the same caliber as the other examples. --M asem (t) 17:15, 18 July 2021 (UTC)


 * In my short-sightedness I didn't realise Cave Story was already there, but I still think Touhou Project has its reasons, and separating them from the others would exhibit their differences as both Cave Story and Touhou Project were released in the early 2000s compared to all the other notable Western indie games. Kettleonwater (talk) 17:20, 18 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Masem added it just now. — HELL KNOWZ   ▎TALK 17:22, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, just adding to say that. --M asem (t) 17:22, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Never mind. Still, I think Touhou is worth an inclusion. Kettleonwater (talk) 17:22, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
 * If nothing else, Touhou is a MAJOR influence on Undertale, and a minor influence on Cuphead, which are both present in the header. Kettleonwater (talk) 17:32, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I'll say what I said before: there are already too many examples. But Cave Story is a notable example, if mainly through popularity depending on which source you ask. It's all wishy washy in the end since sources don't directly compare any of these games. But I don't have a real solution as to how pick the examples. — HELL KNOWZ   ▎TALK 17:21, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
 * The ones we're working are the three featured in Indie Game, and then others frequently sited in introductory language from other sources as representatives of indie games. This also now gives a good range over the last 20-ish years (from 2004 w/ Cave Story) --M asem  (t) 17:25, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Just a few problems with the lede
There are no rougelikes in the lede considering the amount of rougelikes there are this makes no sense to me popular rougelikes like Enter The Gungeoun, The Binding of Isaac, FTL Faster than Light, Spelunky, Dead Cells, Nuclear Throne, Crypt of The NecroDancer and of course Hades besides that there are no games besides Cuphead that were released between 2015-present in the lede considering games like Hollow Knight, Celeste, Oxenfree, The Messenger and Stardrew Valley all releasing during that time I find that strange though I do see length as an issue but personally I think we either just ignore that considering Indie Games will keep coming out and eventually we will need to add them or remove the lede entirely and put popular Indie Games in one section like for example Fez would go in 2005-2014 era cave story and Touhou would go under the 2000-2005 eraMr Kris 420 (talk) 11:35, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The point of the examples of the lede are to identify known successful titles that are well associated with the notion of indie games. The examples all given so far absolutely meet that, but when we get to roguelikes, except perhaps Hades, they're not yet associated with indie games as closely. That takes time to develop. Hades may be an example to add later, but presently its only known as a great game, but not necessarily as a great example of an indie game. --M asem  (t) 11:59, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

You didn't address my second point that besides Cuphead there are no Indie Games that were released between 2015- present in the lede also how are rougelikes not associated with Indie Games they are Indie Games all have small teams and a relatively small budget the defination for Indie GamesMr Kris 420 (talk) 12:21, 16 August 2021 (UTC).
 * We can't include an example of indie games from every gerne as a lede example. Yes, there are significant roguelikes, but there are also significant strategy games, simulation games, puzzle games, etc. that we don't include. And Cuphead is one of those games that is already documented as a recent financial success. There are important indie games since 2015, but none yet have the same type of documented success yet to include. --M asem (t) 21:24, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Not to sound rude but can name atleast 5 successful or even significant games in those genres released in last 10 years most strategy games that were successful were published by AAA publishers for example Civilization VI published by 2k and Age of Empires IV published by Xbox and lastly the strategy games that are Indie aren't even mentioned when the topic of Indie games come up Simulation games on the other hand should be included atleast 2 of them should be Terraria which sold 35 million according to vg247 (https://www.vg247.com/2021/03/21/terraria-35-million-sales-lifetime/) and Stardrew Valley which sold 10 million according to Syfy (https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/stardew-valley-anniversary-creator-playtime-mod-updates) on the topic of puzzle games the only 2 puzzle game I could think of which were mildly successful were The Witness and Obra Dinn the only Indie puzzle game that deserves to be in the lede is Limbo which was released around and sold the same amount of sales as Meat Boy, Fez and Braid  again will say it again one game for the entirety of 2015-present is very low considering the indie games released during that time like Celeste, Hollow Knight, Oxenfree, Outer Wilds, Messenger and Subnautica all released during that time again I don't want them all but only few of them in the lede  Mr Kris 420 (talk) 04:44, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * And again, the point is to include games that are known in and beyond the video game media as successful indie games. A game like Terraria is successful but is not well known outside of video games, for example. --M asem (t) 04:52, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Now that's a lie the only game in the lede people who are not gamers could identify in the lede is Steve from Minecraft and maybe Sans from Undertale if you ask who Meat Boy, Fez or even Shovel Knight most non-gamers couldn't identify them Mr Kris 420 (talk) 05:06, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * We have many external sources beyond the VG industry that identify SMB, Fez, etc. as successful indie games. We are not keeping are nose only to what VG players would know. --M asem (t) 05:15, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Can I have those sources ??? Mr Kris 420 (talk) 05:19, 17 August 2021 (UTC) Masem its have been a day and you still haven't given me those sources Mr Kris 420 (talk) 05:08, 18 August 2021 (UTC) Masem it has been 2 weeks and you still haven't responded can you give me those sources.
 * Just commenting, but shouldn't the cover image be using screenshots from the game's that are mentioned in the lead? I understand it might be due to WP:NFC policies, but it is still odd to use examples from games that aren't mentioned anywhere else in the article. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 19:59, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * All those games in prose (outside of Fez) are non-free images so that's really usable, and its likely better to show a gamut of what indie games can be rather than give one example. --M asem (t) 20:12, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Those sources are in the body of this article as well as in those respective articles. They're used throughout WP in this topic area. --M asem (t) 05:18, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

K I looked at those sources out of the 144 sources only 17 were not linked to Games and out of thoose 17. 5 are technology websites and games go under the umbrella of technology and 2 were entertainment which games are so only 10 sites are actually non-gaming sites I don't kow about you 10 sources really isn't "many" nor is 17 Mr Kris 420 (talk) 12:04, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The point is that games are not frequently covered outside of technology websites, so 10 is many. But to get back to the core here: we cannot include every possible example of an indie game in the lede - there's far too many possible titles even using sales numbers as measure of success to include. We want to hit just a few examples that have been shown, outside of the usual gaming pressing, that are routinely associated with the term "indie game" - which may not always be the most successful ones but are more likely the ones that had the most attention in the earlier days of the indie revolution. Indies are going to go on forever, and there will always been new successful titles but they don't have the uniqueness of what some of these earlier games had at that time.
 * That said, I think all this does suggest that we may want to include a table of successful indie games in the article based on a minimum known threshold for sales (at least 5 million units) and/or revenue. That would be completely fair to include as well as that can be expanded on as the future goes on. --M asem  (t) 13:36, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

I completely agree though I think 5 million is a little too much considering most games in lede themselves haven't sold that many units then again a million may be too less considering all of the games I mentioned above I think have sold 1 million units however if we make it somewhere in between like say 3.5 million than we have the same problem Mr Kris 420 (talk) 14:18, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I've started a table using 1M as the low end, but I will warn if this table becomes far too large (more than say 50 entries) it will need to be raised. This should be examples of successful games and show a cross section to start. --M asem (t) 19:50, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Just a question will you add all of the games in table into the lede ?? also lets say if the table surpasses 50 entries would you remove all of the titles which sold 1M is yes than that would cause problems with games like Meat Boy, Fez and Cave Story. Mr Kris 420 (talk) 10:38, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Masem, do you have an update on the table also can you please answer the above questionMr Kris 420 (talk) 17:21, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
 * We are not going to update the lede to reflect the table. The table is there to address the "financially successful" factor that you raised, but the lede is still there to include games most associated with the concpt of "indie game" even if they aren't commercially successful. --M asem (t) 17:31, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Ok, so what updates have you made on this table so far ??Mr Kris 420 (talk) 03:40, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The table's been in place for more than a week on the article... I'm not sure what more you are looking for there? --M asem (t) 06:10, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Oh sorry I didn't see it but just a small nitpick FTL and Spelunky though mentioned should also be in table as FTL has 1 million players according to arstechnia (https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/04/steam-gauge-addressing-your-questions-and-concerns/2/) and spelunky has sold 1 million accroding to its wikipedia article also I feel like The Messenger and Crypt Of Necrodancer have also sold a million though I can't seem to find sources also Subnautica should also be on the table it has sold 5.2 million copies accroding to pcgamesn (https://www.pcgamesn.com/subnautica/sales)Mr Kris 420 (talk) 14:29, 14 September 2021 (UTC)


 * We can't use that data from the ars tech article because its not confirming sales; its an estimate of sales. Same with the Spelunky data (I checked that). And there are probably other titles that just having been dug up like Subnautica that can be added once we have a source confirming sales.  --M asem  (t) 14:31, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Addition of Hotline Miami to the lead and history sections
I believe that Hotline Miami should be added to the lead as a successful indie game, as well as being mentioned somewhere in the history section. It is considered one of the best video games of all time (sources to support that are there), has been attributed to the success of the publisher Devolver Digital as its breakout and most important title, has inspired several different video games (ex. Katana Zero and Mother Russia Bleeds), and indirectly inspired a scene in John Wick: Chapter 4 and was featured as an easter egg in The Last of Us Part II. It also sold 1.5 million units. I believe that because of the achievements and influence of this game, it should be included in the lead list, and given some sort of mention in the history section, where it currently has no mention to be seen.

Sources for all of these claims: (already used for sales numbers) NegativeMP1 (talk) 19:04, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Digital Media and Information in Society
— Assignment last updated by Stevesuny (talk) 20:29, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

"Ori" games sales?
Just a small thing, but both games in the Ori series have sold 2M+ units, and are indie games made by and indie studio. Is there some reason it's not on the chart?

Oh, and Rivals of Aether has sold over a million, which Ori (and Shovel Knight) have appeared in. 130.218.6.181 (talk) 15:56, 19 February 2024 (UTC)